Mediocre-Mons (VENOMOTH BANNED!)

Snaquaza

KACAW
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
So I just had a battle in which I was testing my new team: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-136163001
This team I was experimenting with lead Yanma (still wondering if I should run U-Turn) and Pupitar. I didn't expect Pupitar to be such a threat, but with a decent typing walling Fire, Flying and Normal types it can pull its weight while after a few turns of Set-Up it can demolish most things with EdgeQuake, which is unresisted in the tier. It even has Shed Skin + Rest in a pinch! But you shouldn't rely on it as it's.. unreliable.

I'll use the rest of the post to post why I banned Clefable over Venomoth, Nidoqueen and Smeargle as it has way more redeeming qualities. This however will be edited in later.
 
So I just had a battle in which I was testing my new team: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-136163001
This team I was experimenting with lead Yanma (still wondering if I should run U-Turn) and Pupitar. I didn't expect Pupitar to be such a threat, but with a decent typing walling Fire, Flying and Normal types it can pull its weight while after a few turns of Set-Up it can demolish most things with EdgeQuake, which is unresisted in the tier. It even has Shed Skin + Rest in a pinch! But you shouldn't rely on it as it's.. unreliable.

I'll use the rest of the post to post why I banned Clefable over Venomoth, Nidoqueen and Smeargle as it has way more redeeming qualities. This however will be edited in later.
You're forgetting Bronzor(and possibly Bronzong)
 
Vivillon can 2HKO almost everything in the tier at +1.
+1 252+ SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Qwilfish: 372-438 (111.3 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kingdra: 238-282 (81.7 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Vivillon Bug Buzz vs. +1 252 HP / 88 SpD Lunatone: 260-308 (75.5 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 184-217 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 219-258 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not even Unaware Quagsire can safely switch in.
 

Snaquaza

KACAW
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Well we can always suspect something that's OP, but before something is I first want some good posts/replays/etc. why the 'mon is good and that it isn't healthy for the tier.
 
I've mostly been seeing a lot of Kingdra, Basculin, Combusken, Quagsire and Vivillon as I've been laddering. They seem to be the biggest threats so far. I've been pretty impressed with my Xatu, Raticate, Glalie and Diggersby. Xatu does great stuff pretty much every match and is one of the best pokemon in the metagame without a doubt. I've been using the offensive variant with Psyshock, Giga Drain, Heat Wave and Roost. Raticate does just as much work, outspeeding every Pokemon bar Basculin and Swanna and ripping holes in teams with Facade and scouting with U-turn. It is a pretty awesome revenge killer thanks to its high speed and Sucker Punch. I've been using Glalie and a Spikes setter and it's okay at that role, but I'm usually only able to get one Spike up most matches, but otherwise it does alright. Ice Shard is great for it; it makes it kind of like Mediocremons' Mamoswine. Diggersby is definitely pretty cool, but it has trouble setting up and is therefore not very consistent. I've been using a Salac Berry + Swords Dance set with Earthquake, Quick Attack and Stone Edge.

I'll see if I can post some replays later.
 

Monte Cristo

Banned deucer.
ok so just posting here because I've had a fun time laddering (got to top 3 once) and I quit after 45 minutes because I never really ladder in OMoTM.

Anyways here's some cool shit I've been using:

Mawile @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 32 HP / 224 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance

I just love Mawile right now, 2 great STABs boosted off a great attack, Swords Dance and SHEER FORCE. Not only this but it can rip through offense with Sucker Punch + STABs easily, Venemoth is 2HKOd by Play Rough + Sucker Punch unboosted or just 2 unboosted Play Roughs! After an SD this things wallbreaking potential is just way too high:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 148-174 (50.6 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 407-481 (105.9 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 308-363 (109.2 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (switchin or post sleep clause)



Gabite @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Sleep Talk / Stone Edge

Loving this thing atm. It outspeeds Klang after a shift gear and other cool stuff, it can revenge kill shit like basculin (weakened- outrage does like 87%) and nidoqueen. Can't describe more rn cause busy but yeah. Use it.

I'll post about my Ferroseed + Pawniard core later to trap Xatu (pursuit + hazards/magic bounce lure)
 
A couple of things that really look to stand out:

Sableye - even more annoying now that most powerful special attackers and fire types are gone. Will-o-wisp and its great typing and prankster taunt + recover is so hard to deal with in a lot of cases.
Nidoqueen - strongest unboosted special attacker in the tier by a mile. Also quite bulky, decent defensive typing and can lay down both SR and TS.
Quagsire - since boosting is more important than ever, this puts a good stop to most of them with Unaware and its good physical bulk, great defensive typing and recover.
Abomasnow - powerful STABs on both sides make it a fearsome mixed attacker, and hail is annoyign to deal with for a lot of teams too.
Pikachu - Light Ball, powerful STAB moves, Extremespeed, and high natural speed stat.
Xatu - close to the highest speed and special attack stats in the meta, nice special movepool, and Magic Bounce. Only the wide-spread Knock Off stops this being broken, really, it's a major threat.

---

Kingdra - highest BST in this meta as far as I know, amazing typing and great dual STABs. Also, Swift Swim with Rain Dance support makes it just ridiculously hard to beat unless you have one of its few reliable checks. Also, it can go Focus energy + Sniper which practically guarantees critical hits which, in combination with its sheer power and access to Draco Meteor, is just insane. Honestly, with everything it can do, i think this pokemon should be banned.
Klefki - is similar is a lot of ways to Sableye, with prankster and an excellent defensive typing. Very different movepool but very threatening, and particularly dangerous to semi-stall. But with its superior typing, guaranteed dual screens under virtually all circumstances, and spikes all powered by prankster, it's just too good for this metagame. I would honestly say klefki is every bit as broken as Clefable was (though in a different way), and is a Pokemon that needs banning urgently. What make sit even worse is that Rapid Spin and Defog are extremely difficult to sue effectively with most of their good users banned, meaning you pretty much NEED to carry Xatu to stand a chance against it, which is overcentralising.
 
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Quagsire is really good, but don't use physically defensive. This isn't OU; you don't need to run physically defensive Quagsire in order to wall physical attackers. Mega Pinsir isn't going to 2HKO you here. The most relevant physical sweepers are Dragon Dance Kingdra and Belly Drum Slurpuff.

252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Quagsire: 135-159 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- 40.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Kingdra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Quagsire: 199-235 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You can still wall these things without max investment. If you're concerned about DD Outrage Kingdra (though tbh it's not even that common anyways), run enough defense to keep it from 2HKOing you.

252+ Atk Kingdra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Quagsire: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Kingdra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Quagsire: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The more efficient version of this second spread (160 Def) is actually 252 HP / 72 Def / 184 SpDef with a Bold/Impish Nature. This gets you the same Defense and about three or four more points in Special Defense.

Anyways, the scariest sweepers and in general attackers in this metagame are special anyways. See: Venomoth, Calm Mind Slurpuff (way better than Belly Drum), Chatot (max SpDef Quagsire beats it), Vivillon, Nidoqueen, etc. Specially defensive Quagsire is simply far better suited for this metagame than physically defensive.

Also, the Slurpuff set I've been running is:

Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry | Ability: Unburden
252 SpA / 4 SpDef / 252 Spe | Modest Nature
Dazzling Gleam | Psychic | Flamethrower | Calm Mind

Beats Ditto 1v1 because of Unburden. Checks Sableye, which is amazing. Does roughly 40% to physically defensive Quagsire with Dazzling Gleam, so you can beat it with some prior damage on the switch in. Has the coverage to wreck pretty much the entire metagame. Psychic owns all of the Poison-types around, while Flamethrower destroys Abomasnow and random Steel-types such as Ferroseed.
 
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can we talk cherrim for a moment

Cherrim @ Heat Rock
Ability: Flower Gift
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Sunny Day
-Swords Dance
-Seed Bomb
-Nature Power

STAB Seed Bomb + Earthquake coverage is pretty fucking scary after one turn of set up, considering Flower Gift. For example:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Flower Gift Cherrim Seed Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra in Sun: 325-383 (111.6 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

ಠ_ಠ
 

Valmanway

My jimmies remain unrustled
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
can we talk cherrim for a moment

Cherrim @ Heat Rock
Ability: Flower Gift
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Sunny Day
-Swords Dance
-Seed Bomb
-Nature Power

STAB Seed Bomb + Earthquake coverage is pretty fucking scary after one turn of set up, considering Flower Gift. For example:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Flower Gift Cherrim Seed Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra in Sun: 325-383 (111.6 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

ಠ_ಠ
Nature Power is Tri-Attack now, not Earthquake.
 

wishes

push emission
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Quagsire is really good, but don't use physically defensive. This isn't OU; you don't need to run physically defensive Quagsire in order to wall physical attackers. Mega Pinsir isn't going to 2HKO you here. The most relevant physical sweepers are Dragon Dance Kingdra and Belly Drum Slurpuff.

252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Quagsire: 135-159 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- 40.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Kingdra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Quagsire: 199-235 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You can still wall these things without max investment. If you're concerned about DD Outrage Kingdra (though tbh it's not even that common anyways), run enough defense to keep it from 2HKOing you.

252+ Atk Kingdra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Quagsire: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Kingdra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Quagsire: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The more efficient version of this second spread (160 Def) is actually 252 HP / 72 Def / 184 SpDef with a Bold/Impish Nature. This gets you the same Defense and about three or four more points in Special Defense.

Anyways, the scariest sweepers and in general attackers in this metagame are special anyways. See: Venomoth, Calm Mind Slurpuff (way better than Belly Drum), Chatot (max SpDef Quagsire beats it), Vivillon, Nidoqueen, etc. Specially defensive Quagsire is simply far better suited for this metagame than physically defensive.

Also, the Slurpuff set I've been running is:

Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry | Ability: Unburden
252 SpA / 4 SpDef / 252 Spe | Modest Nature
Dazzling Gleam | Psychic | Flamethrower | Calm Mind

Beats Ditto 1v1 because of Unburden. Checks Sableye, which is amazing. Does roughly 40% to physically defensive Quagsire with Dazzling Gleam, so you can beat it with some prior damage on the switch in. Has the coverage to wreck pretty much the entire metagame. Psychic owns all of the Poison-types around, while Flamethrower destroys Abomasnow and random Steel-types such as Ferroseed.
I've actually noticed this as well, Quagsire is better off being Specially Defensive. I am running BD Slurpuff at the moment, and have noticed I cannot beat Quagsire effectively, thus, I put on Energy Ball:
  • 4 SpA Slurpuff Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 216-256 (54.8 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's honestly not the best option, but it can be used should Quagsire be of concern.
 
holy shit ban kingdra please. Best stats in the meta, breaks just about any team with it's sets. Crit Spam destroys stall. swift swim and dragon dance spam destroys offense. it's just unstoppable :CCC
 
After having played around a couple of games (peaked like 5 on an alt), I'm really liking weather in general. And other miscellaneous threats.

can we talk cherrim for a moment

Cherrim @ Heat Rock
Ability: Flower Gift
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Sunny Day
-Swords Dance
-Seed Bomb
-Nature Power

STAB Seed Bomb + Earthquake coverage is pretty fucking scary after one turn of set up, considering Flower Gift. For example:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Flower Gift Cherrim Seed Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra in Sun: 325-383 (111.6 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

ಠ_ಠ
Yeah, Cherrim cannot afford to set up BOTH a Sunny Day and Swords Dance. It's best paired with Vulpix or a Sunny Day users. Furthermore, without the swords dance boost, Solar Beam outdamages Seed Bomb.

252 SpA Life Orb Cherrim Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kingdra: 203-239 (69.7 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Flower Gift Cherrim Seed Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra in Sun: 164-192 (56.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I think it's more of a personal preference thing though. If you go special, you have access to Weather Ball and Hidden Power, which might be useful for Fletchinder switch-ins. The Heat Rock set isn't good though mostly because you a) lose out on coverage b) don't have the bulk or resists (well, water resist is nice) to do it well c) lack reliable recovery, status, prankster, etc, things that are generally preferred on a Heat Rock user. I guess a mixed set is workable in theory, but I don't think it'd be that great. Cherrim has one key advantage which you alluded to, and that's the fact that it can outrun (or speed tie) Kingdra without Chlorophyll, which is really useful for sun teams.

Also, all sun teams need to run Xatu. If you don't, you're sun team is shit. Sorry.

And in trying rain, I honestly really love this set:



Poliwrath @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Brick Break
- Hypnosis

The main attraction of this set is Hypnosis and that's not going to get banned. Hypnosis, provided it hits, allows you to cripple whatever switch-in the opponent brings, which will most likely be Kingdra or a bulky water like Quagsire. From there, you can either switch to your own Kingdra (I run HP Grass), or just pummel away with Brick Break, although I wouldn't recommend that against Quagsire obviously. LO Waterfall does a lot of damage against anything that doesn't resist it. Ice Punch is also an option, I guess, but I don't see any reason at all to run it.

For EVs, this simple spread reaches a LO number and deals lots of damage. An alternate spread of 92HP / 252Atk / 160Spe allows you to outrun Jolly Basculin in the rain and survive Fletchinder's Acrobatics, although there's a 50% chance you'll die after the first round LO recoil, so it's risky to stay in.

Another thing I tried was bulky Krokorok. I'll hide in spoiler tags because it's niche imo


Krokorok @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock

Eviolite Krokorok is probably one of the best Stealth Rock setters in the tier. Eviolite + Max SDef investment + Intimidate makes him surprisingly bulky. LO Modest Xatu only 3HKOs with Grass Knot lmfao. On top of that, he's not afraid of your Magic Bounce bullshit and can go straight for the Knock Off. In conjunction with taunt, he shuts down Ferroseed relatively well but Ferroseed isn't that great imo. I guess the main thing is just that he's bulky and reliable. It does have flaws, notably that it doesn't hit as hard you'd expect, has only base 45 defense (meaning you can't switch him into certain physical attackers -- he's more of a pivot and SR setter than a wall), and has a lot of really nasty weaknesses to water, fighting, and ice in particular.

Nidoqueen makes a good SR setter too, but doing that at the cost of a moveslot is sort of painful for me. Nidoqueen also needs to get the boot and I'm sure someone can do the explaining for that better than me.


Also, maybe mediocremons isn't the best name for the tier. I've seen people running Quick Claw Elektrike and Banded Golett and other completely mediocre garbagemons lol
 
ok so just posting here because I've had a fun time laddering (got to top 3 once) and I quit after 45 minutes because I never really ladder in OMoTM.

Anyways here's some cool shit I've been using:

Mawile @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 32 HP / 224 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance

I just love Mawile right now, 2 great STABs boosted off a great attack, Swords Dance and SHEER FORCE. Not only this but it can rip through offense with Sucker Punch + STABs easily, Venemoth is 2HKOd by Play Rough + Sucker Punch unboosted or just 2 unboosted Play Roughs! After an SD this things wallbreaking potential is just way too high:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 148-174 (50.6 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 407-481 (105.9 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 308-363 (109.2 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (switchin or post sleep clause)
I played against your team like three times and you yourself once, so I can say it's solid. I was running a lot of status and Quagsire, so I didn't ever get to see it in action, but the only thing is dealing with status. Personally, I think Play Rough / Substitute / Sucker Punch / Swords Dance is more effective because Iron Head isn't the world's most coverage-friendly STAB and Fairy/Dark nets you perfect coverage anyway. Substitute means that you aren't afraid of Sableye, who can do literally nothing to you, allowing you to Swords Dance or go straight for the Play Rough. OHKOing Nidoqueen at +2 is nice, but you can't outspeed anyway, so it's only going to matter if it's switching in, but the combination of +2 Play Rough and Sucker Punch OHKOs it anyway. Finally though, my main probably with this set is that it's depressingly weak without a swords dance and Mawile has the typing but not the bulk to easily get to +2.

I'll post about my Ferroseed + Pawniard core later to trap Xatu (pursuit + hazards/magic bounce lure)
My only question about this is how? LO Xatu OHKOs with Heat Wave, is only OHKOd by pursuit if you switch out, can't be OHKOd by Sucker Punch if you run the NU standard HP investment. Unless you choose to run LO Pawniard, but then you can't switch in on the Heat Wave. I think you already know this, but your team tends to lose against sun (although I wasn't running Xatu).

That being said, I think a Ferroseed + Pawniard core is cool in theory and works a lot like Deosharp in OU (I run Pursuit Bisharp there and it's defintely my favorite set). But I also haven't seen much Defog in the tier, so I'm not sure how much advantage you could really take of it.


EDIT: Sorry for double posting :c Mods can merge my posts but they'd be kind of long together.
 
I would also like to chip in Masquerain-- a really good pokemon in this format

Masquerain @ Focus Sash
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Timid Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Bug Buzz
- Baton Pass
- Sticky Web

really good lead, loves passing to Nidoqueen.
 

ethan06

⋖(☼┆☼)⋗
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Okay, here's something interesting I just thought of here...

Clamperl @ Deep Sea Tooth
Modest
Rattled
252 Sp. Atk/252 Spd/4 Sp. Def
-Shell Smash
-Surf
-Ice Beam
-Hidden Power [Grass]

Modest 252 Speed investment hits 163 - so 326 after Shell Smash +2, two points higher than Jolly 252 Basculin. With a boost from Deep Sea Tooth and Shell Smash, obviously this thing hits like a truck. Probably very open to revenge kills though, which is why it should probably be saved for the late-game. Thoughts?
 

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