Mediocre-Mons (VENOMOTH BANNED!)

  • 252 SpA Life Orb Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 164-192 (41.6 - 48.7%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after 2 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
It can't even safely switch in anyways so what's the purpose of Grass Knot? And let's compare Raticate and Stantler:
View attachment 16225
Stantler does seem better at first glance, but Raticate's the fastest unboosted Pokemon in the tier (bar Basculin), but, more importantly, it outspeeds Kingdra. This means it can nail it with Facade:
  • 252 Atk Guts Raticate Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 261-307 (89.6 - 105.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
meanwhile,
  • 252 Atk Life Orb Stantler Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 183-216 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Raticate's Facade is so powerful, and it gives me all the more reason to use it. Stantler isn't outclassed by Raticate, but I don't find it nearly is good.
Fair enough but one of the better things with stantler is the fact that it can go mixed. Also a potential check to kingdra that I just thought up is scarf zweilous I mean the thing has the highest attack stat in the meta coupled with a really good offensive typing the only things that can switch into it's outrages are bulky resists because you need a good amount of bulk to tank the strongest viable attack in the meta.
 
Fair enough but one of the better things with stantler is the fact that it can go mixed. Also a potential check to kingdra that I just thought up is scarf zweilous I mean the thing has the highest attack stat in the meta coupled with a really good offensive typing the only things that can switch into it's outrages are bulky resists because you need a good amount of bulk to tank the strongest viable attack in the meta.
The thing is with the majority of checks that have been mentioned if it's using a rain dance set it outspeeds and KOes all of them making them only soft checks
 

tennisace

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I'm surprised as hell everyone is whining about Kingdra when Nidoqueen and Venomoth are still allowed in the tier...

Kingdra unfortunately can't run a set of Dragon Dance / Waterfall / Outrage / Hydro Pump / Focus Energy / Draco Meteor / HP Grass. It doesn't have priority, which means it's outsped by everything in the base 90 tier. It can't break through Ferroseed, if you're that concerned about it on a defensive team. Physical sets can't break through Quagsire or Qwilfish without crits. It has trouble switching into a ton of things on offense, because while it has good defenses relative to the tier, it's still susceptible to all entry hazards and can get quickly worn down.

We've only had a ladder for less than a week. Give it a bit more time before going out with the torches and pitchforks.
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
this feels like sylveon in stabmons. so we have one supposedly somewhat viable check. so what we use it on every team? is any other team screwed by kingdra? does hp fire kingdra kill every team that uses ferro as a kingdra here?

even if your points are valid, it changes nothing; its still just as overcentralizing, unfairly powerful, and completely uncompetitive. It restructures teambuilding completely and every team, even with ferroseed, is kingdra weak. to some set. if its specsdra, it dents ferro, then switches out. the next time kingdra comes out ferro cant come in on it since it gets 2hkod from that health. when the only counter can be quickly worn down, a team is still kingdra weak. literally every team can be swept by some kingdra set, which makes kingdra completely broken. when you make a pokemon with the highest possible mixed offensive and defensive stats (not including speed and hp), coupled with a great offensive and defensive typing, and give it a wide movepool, its bound to be broken. seriously, this is like kyu-b with a better movepool and defensive typing. its kind of rediculous.

ferro as a spikes stacker and kingdra check just wont work, its worn down too easily while setting.
 

EV

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I'm surprised as hell everyone is whining about Kingdra when Nidoqueen and Venomoth are still allowed in the tier...

Kingdra unfortunately can't run a set of Dragon Dance / Waterfall / Outrage / Hydro Pump / Focus Energy / Draco Meteor / HP Grass. It doesn't have priority, which means it's outsped by everything in the base 90 tier. It can't break through Ferroseed, if you're that concerned about it on a defensive team. Physical sets can't break through Quagsire or Qwilfish without crits. It has trouble switching into a ton of things on offense, because while it has good defenses relative to the tier, it's still susceptible to all entry hazards and can get quickly worn down.

We've only had a ladder for less than a week. Give it a bit more time before going out with the torches and pitchforks.
OK.

But back to pitchforks, Ferroseed is the only reliable check most of the time and even then it isn't doing anything back in a hurry since it has to Twave, then set up Leech Seed and try to stall with Protect all the while praying Kingdra isn't running HP Fire. And even if Ferroseed can check Kingdra, you basically have to run it on every team as Kingdra insurance because it is so prevalent.

Honestly, I'd be happy to discuss Veno and Nidoqueen if they get suspected. UU-worthy Pokemon in a tier full of mostly NU and RU Pokemon are bound to be trouble.

Like I said in my earlier post, I understand that the premise is to restrict anything with a stat of 100 or more, but that doesn't mean everything under that benchmark is compatible in a balanced metagame. Some stuff is just pretty obvious when it doesn't fit in. If you want I could make some round peg/square holes analogies too. :P
 
Given that Focus Energy + Scope Lens means there is always a critical hit, and Sniper increases the damage past 2x, I would say ban because it's effectively a stronger Huge Power with one-turn set up that works with Special moves, and it has good attacking stats. There are no truly effective counters, unless it is switched in on them (which it shouldn't do).
 
I'm surprised as hell everyone is whining about Kingdra when Nidoqueen and Venomoth are still allowed in the tier...

Kingdra unfortunately can't run a set of Dragon Dance / Waterfall / Outrage / Hydro Pump / Focus Energy / Draco Meteor / HP Grass. It doesn't have priority, which means it's outsped by everything in the base 90 tier. It can't break through Ferroseed, if you're that concerned about it on a defensive team. Physical sets can't break through Quagsire or Qwilfish without crits. It has trouble switching into a ton of things on offense, because while it has good defenses relative to the tier, it's still susceptible to all entry hazards and can get quickly worn down.

We've only had a ladder for less than a week. Give it a bit more time before going out with the torches and pitchforks.
Kingdra doesn't need to run all of those moves at once. There are literally three Pokemon in the tier which resist both of Kingdra's STABs: Ferroseed, Cottonee, and Marill. Marill is total garbage and Cottonee isn't much better. So on any CritDra set, there is only one coverage move which Kingdra would ever need to run and that is HP Fire. The only reason CritDra would not be running HP Fire is to run Agility instead, but CritDra is still very good without Agility in this tier, so HP Fire should be expected as a possibility on any CritDra set.

The Rain Dance set is walled by Ferroseed, but that is about all that can stop it. Rain Dance is basically like a special Shift Gear and no Scarfer in the tier can outrun Kingdra in the rain. Its bulk gives it time to set up and allows it to take the generally weak priority in the meta.

The Dragon Dance set has only two possible hard counters: Ferroseed and Quagsire. Kingdra has a good chance of 2HKOing Ferroseed with HP Fire after SR if it runs a neutral SpA nature and Quag is easily 2HKO'ed by HP Grass even with a hindering nature. So both basically have a 50/50 chance of actually being a counter.

There is basically no universal Kingdra counter in the tier, and it is hard to check because of its bulk. Kingdra can survive Adamant Scarf Gabite's Dragon Claw without any defensive investment for example.

Since this meta is up on the main server for only a month, we shouldn't wait too long and let MM become defined as a Kingdra shitfest while it is here.
 
I'd agree with tennisace. Defensive Nidoqueen and Focus Sash Vivillon are annoying and can dent your team before you can so much as make a move. Also, Ariados is a great SW/Toxic Spikes setter with passable Attack and great moves in Cross Poison + Sucker Punch. What's a good SR setter that can also take care of Xatu on the switch in? I'm thinking maybe Eviolite Dwebble.

Edit: I've been testing this for quite some while now and it's proven effective.



Tropius (M) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Natural Gift (80 BP Flying Type Move with Lum Berry)
- Earthquake

You may change the EVs to fit your team. I haven't tried a bulky spread, but that might work as well.
 
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Snaquaza

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I'd agree with tennisace. Defensive Nidoqueen and Focus Sash Vivillon are annoying and can dent your team before you can so much as make a move. Also, Ariados is a great SW/Toxic Spikes setter with passable Attack and great moves in Cross Poison + Sucker Punch. What's a good SR setter that can also take care of Xatu on the switch in? I'm thinking maybe Eviolite Dwebble.
You have better Rock Types than Dwebble in the tier:<br />
Lunatone: Has very high Special Attack so its Psychics and Earth Powers will hit very hard. It can also counter non-Shadow Ball (Which is very rare) Nidoqueen due to it's combination of high Special Bulk (70/85) and a typing which lets it resist Queen's STABs. Has access to Stealth Rock and reliable recovery in Moonlight. Too bad it doesn't get a strong Rock attack, but there's always the weaker Ancient-Power. It gets Ice Beam as coverage, but it's usually not needed.
Solrock: The opposite of Lunatone qua stats, it has a very high attack Stat so it can easily fire off Super Effective Stone Edges at any Xatu switch-in. It gets Will-o-Wisp for support as does it get Morning Sun and Stealth Rock - Which are great support options. It has very decent physical bulk too at 85/70, but its other stats are average. It also gets Fire Type coverage! This coverage is special though and its Special Attack stat isn't great so you're usually better off not using it. If you do run it though, Ferroseed will be in for a nasty surprise.
Pupitar: While usually seen running a Dragon Dance set, this can easily run a defensive Rock Setter set. While Rock/Ground is not the best defensive typing; it can still hold its own due to its bolstered bulk with Eviolite. That same mediocre typing is amazing offensively allowing to hit the entire tier outside Bronzor and Vibrava! A combination of surprise value and a Rock STAB will prevent Xatu from switching in. Other than these moves it can run Taunt to prevent other Pokemon from setting up; Toxic to punish defensive Pokemon; Rest for more longevity and even another coverage move to hit specific Pokemon. (Think: Superpower, Iron Tail, Crunch/Pursuit)
Lileep: This is Little Cup just like Dwebble, but has an arguably better Defensive typing. The thing that makes the difference is its ability though. Storm Drain is amazing for a Rock type and with its good defenses that are made even better with Eviolite, it can easily hold its own. It has Recover for reliable recovery; two decent STABs in this Metagame (Grass for all the Water types and Rock is nearly always good); Stealth Rock to support its team and decent boosting options. While not the strongest, Lileep has the potential to be a diamond in the rough.

Krokorok: While not a Rock type, this Pokemon can still punish Xatu for switching in. Its already pretty commonly used on the ladder and for a good reason! It has the coveted Stealth Rock together with a Dark Typing which gives it access to STAB Knock Off to hit Xatu so it can't prevent you from setting up Rocks and the semi-common NFE's. While not horribly strong, its not easy to switch into with high-power STABs, one of which removing your item together with 82 Base Attack. It's defenses might not seem like the best, but they become decent with an Eviolite! It's ability Intimidate helps with tanking even more, but Moxie makes it more threatening. However, it won't sweep too easily with 74 Speed without Sticky Web support. But honestly, there are better Sticky Web sweepers in the tier.
 
I wanna share a sort of mediocremons bellyjet azumarill:




Smeargle @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed / Bullet Punch
- Flame Charge
- Bullet Seed

How the set works:
Your opponent think that is the classic spore set: u switch with smeargle, your opponent switch ferroseed/xatu while u belly drum. Ferroseed is destroyed by a flame charge (boosted by technician, and also u get some needed speed, because u are adamant). Quagsire wanna check u thanks to Unaware? Press Bullet Seed. For the rest go with espeed. The best partner of this Smeargle is someone that can put rocks (and maybe one layer of spikes, so Pineco, Ferroseed) and an antispinner. Is something similar to a midgame sweeper, works like a lure against ferro before the belly drum.

Calcs:


+6 252 Atk Technician Smeargle Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Floette: 152-180 (48.7 - 57.6%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO


+6 252 Atk Smeargle Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Floette: 151-178 (48.3 - 57%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO

So espeed is probably better than bullet punch.

+6 252 Atk Technician Smeargle Flame Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 260-308 (89 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

With jolly u are near to okho ferroseed, but:



+6 252+ Atk Technician Smeargle Flame Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 284-336 (97.2 - 115%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Not the broken pokemon, but funny to use in this metagame, i don't know if all of u play this tier to rest after u play OU or other normal tier, but this is my case.
 

aVocado

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Dalai_Drama why not run Sacred Fire on the set? You wouldn't need much speed anyway if you're using ExtremeSpeed and already outspeed the walls that you want to, and Sacred Fire isn't a contact move so Ferroseed can't hurt you with iron barb shenanigans etc.
 
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I have been playing in this tier for a couple of days and currently sitting 4th on the ladder, really fun tier with a lot of room for creativity

Currently using Basculin, Xatu, Nidoqueen, Abomasnow, Klefki and Fletchinder. Every member of the team has pulled it's weight in some way (Fletchinder being scarily effective with a support set). You probably know what most of them do but the item choices in particular are what I feel has gotten me this far

On the topic of Kingdra, Boltaway has covered most of the point I would want to make about it. It's extremely unpredictable and there's not a single Pokemon in the tier that can reliably switch into it depending on what it runs. Sure, you can switch your Ferroseeds at it, but at the end of the day -

252+ SpA Life Orb Sniper Kingdra Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed on a critical hit: 135-160 (46.2 - 54.7%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO

I know this is just one example and there's many different sets it can run but I still wouldn't call Ferroseed a reliable wall to it's antics. If it chooses to run HP Fire or Baton Pass the situation is even more amplified (although this is extremely uncommon and I wouldn't run it myself). There are ways around it but it almost always results in a sacrifice if you're not using a Choiced Freeze Dry user, Belly Drum Slurpuff or your own Baton Passer; very few set checks that can take it on reliably, which I find is the main problem. It's amazing defensive typing and stats also make it fearsome defensively and able to switch in easily. I vote to ban Kingdra
 
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mediocremons-138523318

Raticate @ Fire Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn
- Swords Dance

Swords Dance is crazy strong, it doesn't take x4 attack to sweep a full team if every defense stat is below 100, and you don't have time to get all of them as your rat is on fire.
Raticate also has 97 base speed, which I believe might be the highest in this meta; with jolly nature, he will out-speed anything that isn't buffed or scarfed, so you can afford to put some points into HP to help him survive that whole being on fire thing a little longer.

- Facade because a 140 power move, plus Guts, plus a few stages of atk = 1 hitting anything.
- Sucker Punch for anything you think might be faster than you, or also using sucker punch.
- U-turn, to get out of there and take whatever you're afraid of with you.
- Swords Dance, because oh my god we need more atk.

All you need to worry about is the prevalence of sleep openings. I'm considering opening with a sleep talking, what with having been put to sleep in the first turn of every MM match I've played so far. The well known belly-drummers seem to draw aggro, however, which is good, as nobody expects the flaming rat.

At least at the level I play at.
 

RufflesPro

formerly Professional2341
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mediocremons-138523318

Raticate @ Fire Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn
- Swords Dance

Swords Dance is crazy strong, it doesn't take x4 attack to sweep a full team if every defense stat is below 100, and you don't have time to get all of them as your rat is on fire.
Raticate also has 97 base speed, which I believe might be the highest in this meta; with jolly nature, he will out-speed anything that isn't buffed or scarfed, so you can afford to put some points into HP to help him survive that whole being on fire thing a little longer.

- Facade because a 140 power move, plus Guts, plus a few stages of atk = 1 hitting anything.
- Sucker Punch for anything you think might be faster than you, or also using sucker punch.
- U-turn, to get out of there and take whatever you're afraid of with you.
- Swords Dance, because oh my god we need more atk.

All you need to worry about is the prevalence of sleep openings. I'm considering opening with a sleep talking, what with having been put to sleep in the first turn of every MM match I've played so far. The well known belly-drummers seem to draw aggro, however, which is good, as nobody expects the flaming rat.

At least at the level I play at.
I don't know, I'd put Flame Charge over U-Turn for Forreseed and other steel- types.
 
What are the most viable stall mons at the moment? Stall seemed really viable in this meta so I'm making a stall team, but I have no idea on what mons to use besides Ferroseed + Quagsire.
 

wishes

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Well, we (the council) had a discussion and a vote and we've decided (by a 100% majority) to BAN KINGDRA. We've decided this because it has virtually no counters, is way too strong and versatile, and it has way too good stats and typing. For all these reasons, its been decided that Kingdra is to be banned from Mediocre-mons.
Here's a lengthier reasoning by Red Cat :
There is really no reason to run Flash Cannon on Kingdra since Hydro Pump hits all Fairies in the tier except Cottonee (lol) harder anyway. The accuracy isn't that much of an issue.

Like I said before in the thread, the only coverage move worth running on CritDra is HP Fire. I don't know why the hell people use Ice Beam on Kingdra since Tropius and Grotle (see below) are the only things in the tier which it hits harder. CritDra can easily 2HKO Tropius with Draco Meteor after Focus Energy, and Grotle can still wall Kingdra.

Grotle is a much better answer to CritDra than Ferroseed because it is completely immune to crits and isn't destroyed by HP Fire. This replay shows how good Grotle is against CritDra: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mediocremons-138339211(My opponent's reaction here is priceless.) I think Grotle is a better wall than Ferroseed in general because it has reliable recovery and can wall Basculin and Brick Break Pikachu too.

Overall, I think Kingdra should be banned. Almost every team I see high on the ladder is using it and I don't see why anyone would not want to use it (I don't use it because I play stall, but every offensive and balanced team should be using it imo.) Grotle is literally the only thing in the tier which I can think of that can wall the CritDra set, but Kingdra could also be running Rain Dance and Dragon Dance sets and Grotle is not as good against those. Needing a specific counter to counter one set of one Pokemon is over-centralizing. Kingdra is not very easy to revenge kill either which makes it even more broken. Right now, MM is basically Kingdra + Venomoth + 4 Mediocre-Mons.
 
What are the most viable stall mons at the moment? Stall seemed really viable in this meta so I'm making a stall team, but I have no idea on what mons to use besides Ferroseed + Quagsire.
Lickitung is really good with its 90/75/75 defenses and Eviolite and it passes huge Wishes in this meta. It also has Heal Bell to function as a cleric, Seismic Toss to deal good damage especially since nothing has more than 99 base HP, Knock Off to get rid of items, Dragon Tail to phaze, and Oblivious stops it from being Taunted.

Golbat is also pretty good as it can Defog, Taunt, and hit fairly hard with Brave Bird without investment. Its defensive typing is very good in this meta.

Grotle is solid too. Its best use was stopping Kingdra, but it is banned now. Grotle is still a very good defensive Grass type though and can set up SR.

Mawile is a good physical wall with Intimidate, and it has semi-reliable healing with Pain Split. It is one of the best answers to Raticate in the tier. It has a good movepool with Knock Off, SR, Metal Burst, Counter, and Super Fang.

Hope this helps a little, but don't be afraid to experiment. Remember that some of the best walls in MM are not necessarily pre-evolutions of good walls in the upper tiers.
 
The Eevee General
S Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

Klefki
Nidoqueen

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

Abomasnow
Ferroseed
Fletchinder
Frogadier
Golbat
Quagsire
Raticate
Sableye
Vivilon
Xatu
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Ariados
Basculin
Chatot
Combusken
Gabite
Hippopotas
Krokorok
Lunatone
Mawile
Murkrow
Pikachu
Poliwrath
Qwilfish
Rotom
Smeargle
Solrock
Stantler
Vullaby
Vulpix
Weepinbell
Zweilous
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks.

Arbok
Ditto
Herdier
Garbodor
Girafarig
Golduck
Grotle
Malamar
Masquerain
Mightyena
Misdreavus
Slurpuff
Swanna
Tropius
Volbeat
Wartortle
Whirlipede
D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who have a very small niche that are for the most part, overshadowed by their flaws or are almost if not completely outclassed by another pokemon in every single way.

Bibarel
Butterfree
Cherrim
Diggersby
Lumineon
Medicham
Parasect
Seaking
Watchog
E Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that should never be used. Ever.

Beedrill
Furret
Kricketune
Plusle
Natu
Pachirisu
 
Last edited:

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
So i just want to say: do not whine about the kingdra ban people. if you need to vent, send me a pm and ill gladly hear your thoughts about how we are the worst council ever and should never play this game again because kingdra is good on your team or whatever. even if you do have an argument that is not insults for it, dont post here. its over. dont whine, dont complain on.this thread. like i said, everything can just come at me through pm.


Venomoth needs a suspect. i will go ahead and say i am on the fence on it right now.
 
Swanna should be moved up to A rank IMO. It is the fastest Defogger and the tier and tied with Basculin as the fastest Pokemon in the tier overall. A Defogging set with Defog/Scald/Roost/Air Slash|Ice Beam will allow it to do its job consistently while providing an offensive presence with a good 87 Sp. Attack.

Glalie could be added to C rank since it is a pretty decent Spiker with priority and good coverage that is hindered by a poor defensive typing and lack of a good physical Ice STAB move other than Ice Shard. Ice Shard allows it to hurt Xatu and most Defoggers and it is fairly good at revenge killing things with it.

Phione could be ranked somewhere, but I actually need to use it first.
 
The Viability Rankings look very good in general.

Put Natu in E rank. Xatu is still bulkier than Natu even when factoring in the Eviolite. The only reason to ever use it is if for some reason you really want two MB users on your team, and I don't see why anyone would need that.

Edit: Yeah, Seismitoad you could make it more readable by removing the italics and putting spaces between the ranking descriptions and the Pokemon.

Edit 2: Add Grotle to the rankings at C rank. It is a good wall in my experience. It has an advantage over Ferroseed by having Synthesis and not being weak to Fighting type attacks which allows it to wall Basculin. It also has more physical bulk overall than Ferroseed.

Edit 3: Add Pupitar to the rankings at B rank. It has great bulk with Eviolite and EdgeQuake coverage is very good in this meta. Shed Skin also helps it remove burns and other bad status. It can pull off a Dragon Dance sweep as it outspeeds the entire unboosted tier at +1 if it runs a Jolly nature.
 
Last edited:
add sprites pls, fix the formatting

I nominate Krokorok to B rank. Quoting myself:
Eviolite Krokorok is probably one of the best Stealth Rock setters in the tier. Eviolite + Max SDef investment + Intimidate makes him surprisingly bulky. LO Modest Xatu only 3HKOs with Grass Knot lmfao. On top of that, he's not afraid of your Magic Bounce bullshit and can go straight for the Knock Off. In conjunction with taunt, he shuts down Ferroseed relatively well but Ferroseed isn't that great imo. I guess the main thing is just that he's bulky and reliable. It does have flaws, notably that it doesn't hit as hard you'd expect, has only base 45 defense (meaning you can't switch him into certain physical attackers -- he's more of a pivot and SR setter than a wall), and has a lot of really nasty weaknesses to water, fighting, and ice in particular.
Also, get rid of Natu. It has no niche whatsoever.

Vulpix to B rank as well, maybe even A. Sun can be a really good strategy in this metagame and having an auto-setter gives it something over rain teams. Not to mention a higher number of Chlorophyll, Flower Gift, Leaf Guard, fire-type etc abusers. Likewise, Cherrim should be B- rank for its ability to abuse sun with Flower Gift and being able to go physical or special.
 
add sprites pls, fix the formatting

I nominate Krokorok to B rank. Quoting myself:


Also, get rid of Natu. It has no niche whatsoever.

Vulpix to B rank as well, maybe even A. Sun can be a really good strategy in this metagame and having an auto-setter gives it something over rain teams. Not to mention a higher number of Chlorophyll, Flower Gift, Leaf Guard, fire-type etc abusers. Likewise, Cherrim should be B- rank for its ability to abuse sun with Flower Gift and being able to go physical or special.
I am incredibly skeptical of cherrim, it has a physical movepool the size of a dick a kiddie pool. Flower Gift is cool and all but I do not really feel it deserves b rank at all for now it will be d rank.
 

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