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So far I love this tier, and have been able to size down some of my OU teams into this tier. From what I've gathered in about an hour:
1. Baton Pass is viable. yeah, I tried it.
2. Fletchlinder is a MONSTER
3. Rotom is one of the best scarfers in the tier, capable of tricking away the scarf to stop sweepers (looking at you Slurpluff) and making Kingdra a bit easier to deal with.
4. Herdier is amazing w/ Sand. I am running Sand as of now and it's gr9.
That's all for now, but it looks like it's going to be a great July with this meta :D
Nice and easy, Cotton Guard gets you to unbelievable levels of defense, while Calm Mind brings you to a pretty high SpD and allows you to hit relatively hard, thanks to Draining Kiss and Sitrus Berry you can even set up 2-3 of those. But it doesn't stop here, when your HP is low you eat that sitrus and literally you are the fastest thing in the tier [Aside from like scarf kingdra or some shit like that, haven't done calcs]. Low on HP? It doesn't matter Draining kiss gives you all dem souls, flamethrower for coverage. Sableye also usually WoW/Taunt for Belly Drum sets but BAM DK 2hko IIRC.
Threats:
Fletchinder
Nidoqueen
Golbat
Qwilfish
Also Aboma has been popular lately. I'm using one myself.
Honestly i don't feel that a kingdra ban is necessary yet. Quag counters the dd set to the very end unless you run hp grass or something, same goes for ferroseed but with hp fire. The specs set is not really broken as it is once again walled by ferroseed without hp fire. The sniper set is the best set but with taunts running everywhere in the meta it is rather hard to set up a focus energy an agility. The thing that really can make kingdra (and nidoqueen) broken is venomoth or quiver pass in general. If we are going to ban any mon, it should be venomoth because it makes a decent amount of Pokemon potentially broken.
Kingdra: Do not ban
I play stall and have found that Specially Defensive Shell Armor Grotle is an effective counter to Kingdra. Shell Armor obviously stops CritDra (Ice Beam doesn't do that much damage) and Grotle's pure Grass typing allows it to stop Rain Dance sets. It doesn't do as well against Dragon Dance sets, but I use Quagsire to deal with those.
That being said, I think Kingdra might be over-centralizing since since there are very few counters to Kingdra especially since CritDra sets cover almost everything with Draco Meteor + Hydro Pump which allows it to run HP Fire to deal with Ferroseed. It is one of the most offensive Pokemon in the meta and one of the bulkiest at the same time. It has several different sets which have different checks and counters which makes it harder to pin down.
I want to play against Kingdra some more before I make a final decision on it, but I wouldn't be terribly saddened to see Kingdra go.
The moment I saw this I fell in love. I'm already working on a team for this wonderful meta (Which needs a PS! chat ASAP), but I think that we need to get the threatlist done super fast. It's super hard to teambuild in a relatively new meta when we have no idea of what works and doesn't.
Also I vote for banning Kingdra.
It's over-centralizing and it hits everything like a super big truck falling from space. It forces you to run Quagsire or Ferroseed (To wall the physical sets, the special sets I was not able to find a reliable check, only Klefki tbh), otherwise u gon get rekt, since it is super common. someone correct me if I'm wrong please, I've only had 10-20-ish battles on the tier.
EDIT: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mediocremons-138056686 this replay shows the power of Kingdra, and pretty much why I think it should be banned. (He didn't have a check for Kingdra, so got swept by it after a single setup :I)
1) Kingdra is ridiculous right now. Sniper+Focus Energy in particular stomps on everything. I don't know what can take a hit and then KO in the next turn. Nothing I presume.
2) Use Sap Sipper Girafarig to check Xatu. Immune to Shadow Ball and Grass Knot, resists Psychic, can tank Heat Wave and OHKO back with Life Orb Shadow Ball. Only weak to Dark and Bug, so unless Xatu starts packing Dark Pulse/Sucker Punch/U-turn...
3) Use offensive Murkrow. Brave Bird murders (lol crow joke) Venomoth. Sucker Punch does the same to Xatu. Insomnia blocks Sleep Powder. Can't take +1 anything from Veno though and must watch out for Dazzling Gleam predict from Xatu.
90 Speed, 85 Attack, Flash Fire for Weather Ball Weepinbell, Charmeleon, other Sun shenanigans
That's when Sucker Punch comes in handy then. But what does Girafarig want to drop in favor of it? Maybe Shadow Ball, which was basically there to hit Xatu already.
* Nice 85 base attack with choice Band makes it a powerfull attacker
* good HP with reasonable defences
* Amazing typing lets it counter some top threats like non-willowisp-fletchinder, physical pikachu, diggersby and most physical sweepers.
* Alternatively can also run a defensive set with SR, roar, giving it's versatility
Overall this thing is a beast in this meta.
BTW After playing some matches with Tail glow+baton pass+kingdra, I vote for banning Kingdra
The first thing looking at Kingdra is that it has godly stats for this metagame. 75/95/95/95/95/85 is incredibly balanced (unlike say Pikachu) as well as just overall strong (unlike Phione). A 540 BST in a metagame designed to restrict BSTs is not only ridiculous, but like allowing 680 BST Ubers in OU. Kingdra, statistically, is the epitome of offense and balance. Even defensively, Kingdra has the relative bulk to take hits, even moreso when behind screens or with Baton Pass boosts. Regardless, 75/95/95 defenses are really good in this metgame and allow it to survive nearly any non-super effective hit.
Kingdra has unrivaled versatility in this metagame. Even Smeargle, of all things, can't compete with it in terms of the viability of its multitude of sets. That's not hyperbolic when you consider that Smeargle can only run one or two sets effectively, whereas everything Kingdra runs is an effective set. You could probably shit out the worst possible Kingdra and I honestly bet that it would still perform well. Here's a list:
Kingdra can effectively run the following sets:
CritDra - sometimes overrated, but really powerful against stall
Choice Specs - wallbreaks hard
ChestoRest DD - takes advantage of status mons
Sub DD - likewise
LO Mixed - takes out common special/physical walls
LO/Lum Mixed DD - surprises physical walls
Rain Dance - self-sufficient
Standard SS Sweeper + Yawn - fucks with would-be counters
SubSalac / SubPetaya - gimmicky, but can work
Endure + Petaya/Salac - likewise, works best in rain when you predict a SE hit
And going through that list, the fact that it can go special, physical, or mixed means that you can't counter it very easily.
2HKOs Specially Defensive Quagsire (which is what you should be running) with HP Grass / Draco / Hydro Pump
2HKOs Specially Defensive Floette in the Rain 95.3% of the time with Hydro Pump
2HKOs Specially Defensive Floette with Waterfall and 0 attack EVs
Deals well with Special variants outside of rain (I've seen some people running Soundproof lmao); Gets 2HKOd by Physical, can't always 2HKO back. Critdra kills.
Resists both its STABs, but still 2HKOd easily
A generally good counter. 3HKOd by HP on a crit. Can Yawn or Encore, but not do much back offensively.
The only counter that I can come up with is Ferrosseed who is absolute garbage / set-up bait. In fact, if you don't run Gyro Ball (run Power Whip people!), you're total set up bait for DD Kingdra, who's substitute isn't broken by Gyro Ball (to have a chance Ferrossed has to run 252 Attack EVs and even then this won't be 100% of the time). Hell, if someone wanted to, they could easily find a slot for HP Fire just to mess with you. Actually, in the rain, Modest Specs Hydro Pump 2HKOs after hazards. That's a "perfect condition" sort of matchup, but it's not difficult to achieve when you have pranksters and good hazard setters.
Furthermore, Kingdra not only gives defensive teams a hard time, but offensive ones as well. Without priority (and Kingdra isn't weak to any priority moves and has the bulk to tank at least one, mind you), Kingdra in the rain can sweep through your whole team with ease. It's not an understatement. LO + Rain means that Hydro Pump just decimates everything. Dragon + Water are two near-perfect dual STABs, resisted only by Cottone and Marill lol. The reality is that no matter how you build your team, your team will be Kindgra weak. You can build your team with Kingdra in mind sure, and you can revenge kill it outside of rain, sure, but your team, at its core, has members all of whom, except maybe Ferroseed, who can be 2HKOd with the appropriate move. The fact that people even try to build their teams to specifically stave off a Kingdra sweep is exemplary of how centralizing it is. The fact that several games come down to Kingdra speed ties proves this even further. Even if Kingdra faints, it will have taken out several of your opponent's team members if played correctly. Likewise, being wrong about a Kingdra set means essentially sacrificing a mon.
Kingdra also performs insanely well against sun teams. This is because sun teams rarely, if ever, carry a super effective STAB, and a lot of them don't seem to prepare to deal with rain very well. Trying to stop a Swift Swim sweep by sending in Vulpix is like stopping a tank by standing in front of it. Yeah, you might make it move slower, but sooner or later, it's still going to crush you. In fact, if it carries Rain Dance itself, it means it can just set it up again. And Vulpix is usually OHKOd or 2HKOd with Hydro Pump and Surf, respectively. Draco Meteor will still nuke whatever it hits, regardless of weather. Because Grass-types have really poor coverage (aside from maybe Tropius, who is really good for sun and should be used more), Klefki can easily set up Rain in their faces.
Also, I don't want to address this because BP is a cheap strategy and if you use it you can go die in a fire, but Kingdra with QD / Tail Glow / Speed whatever boosts is an unstoppable nightmare.
tl;dr Kingdra's sheer unpredictability, combined with its amazing stats and typing, and ability to overwhelm both offensive and defensive teams is why I would vote to ban Kingdra.
Some small notes: You could probably EV things better here. It's really simple. Set up Spikes / Rain Dance or switch to Krokorok if Xatu exists. I realize this team is "weak" to stuff, but the despite that fact, I've managed to win several of those battles with Poliwrath putting counters out of comission with Hypnosis and Kingdra sweeping late-game after a last-minute Rain Dance. Basically, this team is meant to overwhelm with Swift Swimmers and control sweeps with prankster Rain Dance / Thunder Wave / WoW. You should run Timid Kingdra though, to win speed ties. Nidoqueen needs to be suspected next imo.
Kingdra @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Grass]
Klefki @ Damp Rock
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Spikes
- Rain Dance
- Play Rough
Krokorok @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
Nidoqueen (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Sludge Wave
Poliwrath @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Brick Break
- Hypnosis
Volt Tackle is the nuke of the set, non-resists are hard pressed to switch in without fearing at least a 2HKO. Brick Break hits some useful targets, such as Ferroseed for super effective damage. Grass Knot takes out any Quagsire coming in, the EV's guarantee a OHKO on 252/252+ sets. Volt switch gives you momentum, and still hits hard even with little investment. It's also your best move to spam early game, as most ground types fear grass knot and you want to weaken the opposing team before attempting a sweep, particularly with volt tackle's nasty recoil. This set loves entry hazards on the opposing side of the field as they work well in conjunction with volt switch, and doesn't mind them too much on it's side as it's so frail. Nature choice is up to you, this thing isn't surviving a hit anyways.
Kyurem-B says hi, but yeah Kingdra is probably broken because it has many strengths besides its high BST and I don't see any reason why someone wouldn't want to use it on an offensive or balanced team.
If we are going to talk about kingdra you need to remember that things like Sableye stop all but the specs set because it has a. Taunt for sub dd and critdra and b. willo for non sub dd although your a nub if you're not running lum or chesto. Also all sets need to run hp fire to get past ferroseed meaning it has to give up a moveslot or else get t waved. I feel as kingdra is one of those cartoon snowballs in the fact that should you let it set up once it isn't that hard to handle. Should it get up two dds or a focus energy+agility then you might be in trouble but that can be said about every set up sweeper can't it? While I don't feel that kingdra is exactly healthy for the meta I feel that things like nidoking who has the bulk and coverage to nail a majority of the meta for se damage and venomoth whose offensive sets are by definition uncounterable thanks to tinted lens. Basically I don't really care if kingdra gets banned but I find other things more broken. Once again don't ban.
Kyurem-B says hi, but yeah Kingdra is probably broken because it has many strengths besides its high BST and I don't see any reason why someone wouldn't want to use it on an offensive or balanced team.
But Kyurem-B isn't an Uber, hence why it's in OU... The better analogy would be Kyurem-W or an actual 680 BST like Palkia.
Anyway, I was planning on making the same comparison as Boltaway about Kingdra. Sure, Mediocremons lets anything with under 100 in the club, but that would automatically let in something with 99 in every stat (assuming such a Pokemon existed). Kingdra may not have 99, but if 75 is its lowest stat and 95 its weakest attack, I think it's clear we have a problem. Kingdra IS a big fish in a little pond right now. A really big seahorse dragon to put it aptly. The only other Pokemon with a BST at or over 500 are Poliwrath (510), Nidoqueen (505), and Golduck (500). That means Kingdra has 30 extra base stats to work with over its next closest competitor. Poliwrath may do well in this tier, but it's no monster. Nidoqueen is a whole nother threat, however. And Golduck is okay.
If we are going to talk about kingdra you need to remember that things like Sableye stop all but the specs set because it has a. Taunt for sub dd and critdra and b. willo for non sub dd although your a nub if you're not running lum or chesto. Also all sets need to run hp fire to get past ferroseed meaning it has to give up a moveslot or else get t waved. I feel as kingdra is one of those cartoon snowballs in the fact that should you let it set up once it isn't that hard to handle. Should it get up two dds or a focus energy+agility then you might be in trouble but that can be said about every set up sweeper can't it? While I don't feel that kingdra is exactly healthy for the meta I feel that things like nidoking who has the bulk and coverage to nail a majority of the meta for se damage and venomoth whose offensive sets are by definition uncounterable thanks to tinted lens. Basically I don't really care if kingdra gets banned but I find other things more broken. Once again don't ban.
Kingdra would never set up on a Sableye though. If Sableye comes in right after Kingdra Focus Energies, it is too late to Taunt and that most it could do is burn it or something before it dies to Draco Meteor. Kingdra has room for HP Fire on the Focus Energy set since Hydro Pump and Draco Meteor hit everything else in the tier for big damage. CritDra has no counters at all and that alone is reason for a ban. Sableye also can't check Rain Dance but the way and really only hinders physical sets.
Kingdra would never set up on a Sableye though. If Sableye comes in right after Kingdra Focus Energies, it is too late to Taunt and that most it could do is burn it or something before it dies to Draco Meteor. Kingdra has room for HP Fire on the Focus Energy set since Hydro Pump and Draco Meteor hit everything else in the tier for big damage. CritDra has no counters at all and that alone is reason for a ban. Sableye also can't check Rain Dance but the way and really only hinders physical sets.
I am not saying that kingdra sets up on a Sableye rather Sableye comes in as kingdra sets up a dd or sub. Hell cottonee can prankster encore kingdra. Standard critdra is stopped cold by ferroseed and should you forgo agility for hp fire you risk speed ties with things like Stantler who might I add it really good.
I tested a Baton Pass team for my first 10 matches in this tier (Because I had only a day to play the tier; I thought I'd never get anywhere in the ladder) and lost 7 of them.
Then I switched to a SW Offense team and now I'm #5 and laddering. That should tell you something about the tier.
I may not play the tier regularly, but from what I understand, it's really small and can be laddered quickly. Edit: I don't think Kingdra needs a ban. There are lots of priorities flying around and Offensive LO Xatu beats Kingdra with Dazzling Gleam. But I guess it's going to get banned anyway.
I vote to ban Kingdra. 540 BST (75/95/95/95/95/85) is ridiculous, and Kingdra is extremely versatile. After setup (usually only 1-2 turns are needed) Kingdra ohkos like half the metagame while barely getting 2hko'd back. Slurpuff? Takes over 80% from flash cannon. The only thing that even comes close to Kingdra's power is Nidoqueen, but she gets ohko'd by surf (and probably waterfall) You need to run Quag or Ferroseed just to deal with this thing. Matches usually come down to who sets their Kingdra up first. Plus, like over 90% of teams run Kingdra. In short Kingdra needs to go.
My universal definition of a broken pokemon, in ANY metagame, is "a powerful pokemon that defines a metagame with its power and/or versatility. This pokemon has the ability to change battle strategies drastically just by its presence on a team, and can sweep/wall entire teams with little to no effort. This pokemon also has few real counters, so few that it forces basically every team to run obscure pokemon that have no real niche other than stopping this pokemon, severly limiting teambuilding. Since the counters are so obscure, it is often easy to break them, either with great support or even a changed coverage move that will allow you to breach the check and proceed to sweep the opposing team without a counter to the pokemon."
power and versatility - check
changes battle style - check
sweeps/walls many teams easily - check
few viable counters - check
forces to run sets with no other niche - check
limits teambuilding greatly - check
can breach checks easily - check (hp fire)
to me, if 5 or more are checks, i deem the pokemon broken. kingdra has all 7.
It dominates the meta by limiting teambuilding and reshaping the entire meta, and can sweep the entire viable meta (ferroseed is NOT viable). idk how youre shallow minds seem to not see it. maybe people are exaggerating but that doesnt make it not broken.
My universal definition of a broken pokemon, in ANY metagame, is "a powerful pokemon that defines a metagame with its power and/or versatility. This pokemon has the ability to change battle strategies drastically just by its presence on a team, and can sweep/wall entire teams with little to no effort. This pokemon also has few real counters, so few that it forces basically every team to run obscure pokemon that have no real niche other than stopping this pokemon, severly limiting teambuilding. Since the counters are so obscure, it is often easy to break them, either with great support or even a changed coverage move that will allow you to breach the check and proceed to sweep the opposing team without a counter to the pokemon."
power and versatility - check
changes battle style - check
sweeps/walls many teams easily - check
few viable counters - check
forces to run sets with no other niche - check
limits teambuilding greatly - check
can breach checks easily - check (hp fire)
to me, if 5 or more are checks, i deem the pokemon broken. kingdra has all 7.
It dominates the meta by limiting teambuilding and reshaping the entire meta, and can sweep the entire viable meta (ferroseed is NOT viable). idk how youre shallow minds seem to not see it. maybe people are exaggerating but that doesnt make it not broken.
idk why people say Ferroseed isn't viable, being a Kingdra check, Raticate check, Frogadier and other mons check all in one is freaking amazing. That being said, I don't disagree with banning it, I'm all for it, I just think people need to spruce up their arguments
HP fire is honestly crap, it needs dark pulse/ice beam/dark pulse/uturn (HP elec is important for bulky waters in the last slot over uturn tho). And flame wheel.....
flame wheel is very viable on raticate as an option, it is secondary however.
either way even if ferro can be deemed viable, if you look at the checklist you still have 6, which is well enough to deem it broken. i still dont think ferroseed should be viable though. froagadier does like to run hp fire as well. and what else does ferro do well? hazard setting? cant hazard set if it has to check kingdra
and oh yeah, in the post above it is shown ferroseed doesnt even check critdra, let alone counter it.
flame wheel is very viable on raticate as an option, it is secondary however.
either way even if ferro can be deemed viable, if you look at the checklist you still have 6, which is well enough to deem it broken. i still dont think ferroseed should be viable though. froagadier does like to run hp fire as well. and what else does ferro do well? hazard setting? cant hazard set if it has to check kingdra
and oh yeah, in the post above it is shown ferroseed doesnt even check critdra, let alone counter it.
Okokok ferroseed is a pretty damn viable mon which I'm assuming you haven't used. I use it on spike stacking HO teams because of the fact that it can check kingdra really well and spread twaves although I can use qwilfish they are rather interchangeable. Ferroseed has the stellar typing that it's older brother thorn has that we are all aware of. As for frogadier I find grass knot more important then hp fire in order to nail opposing bulky waters such as quag. Your argument is really uninformed so please return once you use the mon. As for raticate I just use stantler because of such a better move pool.
Surely if you were to use Ferroseed on your team to check Kingdra, you'd at least EV it to do that?
252+ SpA Sniper Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed on a critical hit: 123-145 (42.1 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
But anyway, Kingdra is far too versatile for it's own good, I've even started to see bulky sets cropping up and being used to great success. When a mon has so many different sets it can run and is used on so many teams it becomes overcentralizing. Therefore I say ban Kingdra.
Okokok ferroseed is a pretty damn viable mon which I'm assuming you haven't used. I use it on spike stacking HO teams because of the fact that it can check kingdra really well and spread twaves although I can use qwilfish they are rather interchangeable. Ferroseed has the stellar typing that it's older brother thorn has that we are all aware of. As for frogadier I find grass knot more important then hp fire in order to nail opposing bulky waters such as quag. Your argument is really uninformed so please return once you use the mon. As for raticate I just use stantler because of such a better move pool.
252 SpA Life Orb Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 164-192 (41.6 - 48.7%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after 2 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
It can't even safely switch in anyways so what's the purpose of Grass Knot? And let's compare Raticate and Stantler:
Stantler does seem better at first glance, but Raticate's the fastest unboosted Pokemon in the tier (bar Basculin), but, more importantly, it outspeeds Kingdra. This means it can nail it with Facade:
252 Atk Guts Raticate Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 261-307 (89.6 - 105.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
meanwhile,
252 Atk Life Orb Stantler Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 183-216 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Raticate's Facade is so powerful, and it gives me all the more reason to use it. Stantler isn't outclassed by Raticate, but I don't find it nearly is good.
