Policy Review Mega Evolutions for Past CAPs

HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
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Approved by jas61292
Mega Evolutions for Past CAPs

Previously it was decided here that Mega Evolutions would not be part of the main CAP creation process. However, the possibility of giving Mega Evolutions to past CAPs was left open and reserved for a future discussion. Well, that discussion has come now it seems.

Of course, I can imagine that some of you might have concerns with possible ways to actually go about making these Mega Evolutions. However, for now I think that the process is actually less important than what we want out of the potential MEvos in question, if we do want them at all. In other words, I think coming up with the goals of our end result is necessary prior to constructing a process that will in turn produce these results. Note that a lot of the assumptions that follow will be framed in the logic of if we already do agree to create MEvos for past CAPs. This is not meant to paint MEvos as an inherently logically option, and such assumptions will be used to generate different avenues (and potential problems) associated with the choice of having MEvos. Not allowing MEvos itself is a perfectly legitimate option. However, for the sake of discussion, talking about options that do allow us to make MEvos will hopefully help us explore the possibilities and spot issues that might arise that would generally make the option unfavorable.

If we create MEvos for past CAPs, how should we choose which CAPmon(s) to build upon? Should MEvos try to offer new and unique concepts themselves, or should they just try to enhance the original role of the CAPmon?

Ultimately, some of our biggest concerns are the prospects of actually revising past CAPs. Adding a Mega Evolution inherently creates a revision. As it currently stands, the CAP meta is a uni-generational tier; no 4th or 5th gen CAP meta exists, and thus adding a mega to a past CAPmon has the potential of conflicting with the mon’s original intentions upon the time of its creation. If the mega turns out to be completely worthwhile over the base form 100% of the time, then will the base form’s competitive intentions no longer be preserved? Should this even be a concern, or do the generational shifts and the different mix within the CAP meta already obscure a CAPmon’s original intention?

Between the shift from Gen 5 to 6, many of the Pokémon that received MEvos also received new moves, whether it be from breeding, TMs, etc. Therefore, it could be argued that if we decide to give past CAPmons MEvos that we could also update their movepools. Does updating movepools pose a greater risk to the preservation of the CAPmon’s original intent? If we allow the updating of movepools at the same time as the creation of MEvos does it just needlessly complicate the process? Or is it acceptable as long as we come up with an agreed set of rules that apply to updating moves?

Essentially, we should try to weigh how important the preservation of past creation is, and how much MEvos and related changes would impede upon this preservation. Furthermore, I also think it’s important whether or not we want a playtest for any new MEvos that are made, if any are made at all. A playtest might send the message that we are trying to make something competitive, but at the same time could detract from the playtests of the main CAP process. Do we want to make MEvos just for fun, or do we want this to be a competitive endeavor?

Perhaps what makes the issue of MEvos for past concepts so complex is that we are faced with multiple questions that are fairly independent. Whether we want a playtest is for the most part unrelated to whether or not we to allow for additional movepool additions. Below, in place of concrete proposals, I have listed different questions to explore:

1) Do we want to allow Mega Evolutions for past CAPs? Is exploring the mechanic of mega evolution a good reason to "mess with" past CAP creations? What are the positives of allowing Mega Evolutions for past CAPs?

2) Do we want to make MEvos just for fun or for a competitive goal?

3) Do we want to allow additional movepool revisions to occur during the creation of MEvos? (If so, will we have restrictions on this?)

4) Do we want the MEvo to be an enhanced version of the original concept, or is a new concept altogether feasible? Or would either option be acceptable depending on the situation?

5) Do we want to have the MEvos on the battle simulator? If so, do we want to have a playtest for MEvos?

Feel free to discuss your opinions on these or point out related concerns that I missed. However, for the time being, it is advisable that proposals regarding actual Mega Evolution creation processes are not discussed. We all know there needs to be an abilities stage where a single ability is chosen and a stats stage where a new stat spread with an additional 100 BST boost. However, what we actually want our end goal for MEvos to be, if we want them at all, will likely decide how to go about drafting an actual MEvo creation process. Therefore, talking about these end goals if more important for the time being. Once a consensus is made, and if the consensus allows the creation of MEvos for past CAPmons, then we can shift the discussion into drafting an actual process guide.

Edit: Expanded question #1
 
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Ununhexium

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1) Do we want to allow Mega Evolutions for past CAPs?
Yes. It would both be fun and interesting to see what we could do to make changes with something we already had. Also I don't really see much of an argument other than "they should stay the same way they were created"

2) Do we want to make MEvos just for fun or for a competitive goal?
I believe they should be mostly for fun, but not entirely. I think, because its the only place they will be able to be used in, we should not create them towards a concept, but rather simply to be successful in the CAP metagame.

3) Do we want to allow additional movepool revisions to occur during the creation of MEvos? (If so, will we have restrictions on this?)
I'm on the fence about this one but I'm probably leaning towards allow them because yolo.

4) Do we want the MEvo to be an enhanced version of the original concept, or is a new concept altogether feasible? Or would either option be acceptable depending on the situation?
Like I said, they should not really have a concept or goal other than "be successful in the CAP metagame" because it would be sort of like doing another whole project entirely, which sort of takes away from the uniqueness of the project itself.

5) Do we want to have the MEvos on the battle simulator? If so, do we want to have a playtest for MEvos?
I'd say no to this one because of mostly aforementioned reasons. In my opinion, we should build them, implement them, the play with them. I suppose an unofficial official tournament could be held, but I'd like to say no to an official ladder.
 

Bughouse

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Any and all discussion of making Mega Evolutions for past CAPs is predicated on first deciding what is going on with the CAP metagame, which as far as I know is still up in the air.

I don't see why the heck we should be discussing this before that has been finalized.
 

jas61292

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First off, in response to srk, I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. The thread from the last PR cycle concluded with us deciding to support the metagame by making a subforum for it. Stuff like tiering was left up in the air if we wanted to discuss it later, but unless that is what you are talking about, what we are doing with the metagame was indeed decided and not at all up in the air. I know that after the conclusion post in that thread we had some other things come up, specifically with the name of the metagame and a few reactions about potential concerns of people being confused by the metagame. For the former, it was eventually decided not to change it, and as for the latter, while there was never any actual conclusion posted, as an observer of this community and as one of the people assigned to make such a conclusion on that thread, I would say that most of such concerns were very reactionary to the previous decisions, and for the most part faded away over time. The way things have gone since then do not show any reason to change any of the initial conclusion. While obviously people are free to want other PR topics on this stuff if they feel they are necessary, and things can always be changed if the PRC wants to change things, to say that anything about the general metagame policy is "up in the air" right now would just be false, in my opinion.

Anyways on to the point of this topic. I think HeaLnDeaL framed this discussion fantastically. We really need to be looking at the ups and downs of potentially doing something like this before we decide whether or not to actually do it, and way before we even think about anything process related. With that in mind, while I do love the questions proposed, I think that they are best addressed in a slightly different order than posted. Rather than starting with whether or not we want to do them, we should look at the answers to the other questions, assuming that we want to, and then, when we see how those would be answered, decided whether or not actually doing so is beneficial. So, with that said....

2) Do we want to make MEvos just for fun or for a competitive goal?

In my opinion, if we are going to do a side project involving things greater than existing CAP Pokemon, it has to be competitive to some degree. What this degree is can certainly be up for debate, but I think there needs to be some goal to the project beyond having fun making megas. Unlike prevos which are weaker than CAPs and would never be used even if they did exist on PS, a mega evolution is almost inherently going to be competitive. If we are going to make them in any sort of official manner, we should do so with that in mind. What's more, with mega evolution banned from main CAP projects, this would be our only outlet for experimenting with this cool mechanic, so we might as well take advantage of it.

5) Do we want to have the MEvos on the battle simulator? If so, do we want to have a playtest for MEvos?

Going along with the previous answer, I would say that we absolutely need any mega evolutions to be available on the simulator. Sim play is one of the big things that separates CAP from other theorymon projects. We don't just make up things, we get to test them too. Since I already said that I believe we need any megas to be competitive in some sense, I think that, similarly we need them to be playable. However, with that said, I do not know if we need a specific playtest for them. Whether or not we have that should depend on the environment they are made for. That is something I will talk more about in a bit, but suffice it to say, they should, at least for a time, be playable in the meta they are made for.

4) Do we want the MEvo to be an enhanced version of the original concept, or is a new concept altogether feasible? Or would either option be acceptable depending on the situation?

So, honestly, this is one question that I don't really have a good answer for. I personally don't know what would be best to do here. As I have already said, we should be looking at competitive things, but I don't think it necessarily matters what route we take with this. It all depends what we want to get out of such a project. Obviously, there is a case for enhancing the original concepts. Not only does it stay true to the original, but it also provides a second look at a concept in a new metagame. However, at the same time, some might not be so conducive to a relook. What's more, our earliest few projects didn't even have formal concepts for us to try and enhance. Going with something new and different certainly gives us more freedom, but obviously comes at the cost of not staying true to the original. Of course, the base form will remain mostly untouched, so one could argue that is not a real concern, but I know opinions might be mixed on that.

With that said, I think it might not be a bad idea to depart even further from the main CAP project and drop the whole formal concept idea. We absolutely need a competitive goal, but what it is, I don't think is nearly as important as the fact that it exists as a guiding principle for the project. Even if we just have some sort of guideline as simple as Syclants original "concept" of "something to beat Garchomp," I think that could be enough. In fact, with something like this, simple could definitely be a good thing. We don't need it to be a second CAP project. We just need it to be a competitive project that looks at mega evolution. Of course, I have no objections to more formal concepts. I just don't think they are necessarily the most important thing for a process like this, and overall do not really effect whether or not I think such a project should be done in the first place.

Touching back on what I mentioned in the last answer, I think a big part of this will actually depend on what we want to do as far as a Mega Evolution's metagame. Frankly, it is my opinion that, if we are making mega evolutions for past CAPs, we should be doing so for the CAP metagame. The fact is, that is the only place the base forms are playable, and how the base form plays is a crucial part of how the mega evolution functions. If we are making them for anything but the CAP metagame, then we are not just having theorymon discussions, but we are having theorymon discussions where the fact that drive the discussions are replaced by more theorymon. This is not conducive to a competitive process, which, as I have been saying, I believe is key to something like this.

3) Do we want to allow additional movepool revisions to occur during the creation of MEvos? (If so, will we have restrictions on this?)

Well, this is always a touchy topic, but honestly, my opinions have not changed much in all the years I have been here. But before I get into anything, I just want to make one thing absolutely clear: every time the topic of revising old CAP Pokemon comes up in a chat, there will almost always be someone who chimes in to say that we decided to never do that again and that it won't happen. Now, obviously, "never" is not something we should really throw around, as the PRC can always change any decision it has made in the past if the situation calls for it. However, with that said, as of the last major discussion on CAP revisions, this is not even a true statement. The last thread on such an issue was fairly early in gen 5, and there were very mixed opinions on it. In the end the conclusion of the thread was "lets wait until later to decide on this." Well, it is later, so we can decide on this. Basically though, what I am trying to say here is that "it is CAP policy not to do this" is not only something we as a PRC can change, but also is not something that is even true to begin with.

Anyways, as for my personal opinion, I have no real issue with movepool "updates," as you might call them, but not revisions. Basically, what that means is that I have no issue doing what is effectively a generational update to the movepool, but nothing further. No moves should ever be removed under any circumstances. Additionally, while not as big a concern to me, I would prefer to disallow any major moves that were originally disallowed for the CAP. It is one thing to give out a new move that didn't exist at the time, and so the Pokemon never had any chance to get, but it is something completely different to give it a move that was flat out disallowed on it in the first place. Ideally, I'd like to restrict addition to only moves that didn't exist at the time the CAP was made, but I would not be totally opposed to some other additions, if we have well made restrictions in place to limit these.

Regardless though, as a condition of any revision, I would want the original movepool recorded and preserved. This is honestly not an issue, what with the existance of the Process Archive, but I just think it is important to have in any formal policy that allows such changes.

So, with all that said...
1) Do we want to allow Mega Evolutions for past CAPs?

Honestly.... I don't know. It could go well, but it could also go very poorly. I believe this is something that there will always be a demand for, and so I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to at least give it a shot in one form or another. However, it is important to remember that this is a competitive project, and so if we cannot find a satisfactory way to do it competitively then we shouldn't even try. Furthermore if we try and the competitive side of things gets buried beneath other issues, as happened with the EVO project, then it should likewise be scrapped. I'm not saying that we can't have fun with this thing, nor that it has to be incredibly rigidly structured. I just believe that we need to have a focused goal, and that we need to stay on track if anything like this is going to be successful.
 

nyttyn

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1)
nope. I really don't want to see Mega Evolutions for past CAPs. I don't even think that's really what people want, honestly - what they want is Mega Evolution for their favorite mon.
2)
From a competitive stand point, mega evolution of past CAPs is extremely problematic. Given current tradition, we absolutely do not edit past CAPs. This is for a number of reasons, including tradition, and what happened last time revisions were on the table (DDoak). If they were for fun they would be a bigger waste of time than pre-evos are (no offense to the pre-evo guys but they aren't even on site, which I think is stupid but that's another topic altogether), so there's no real reason to do that unless we feel we can handle branching out for anothr entirely flavor-based subproject (and pre-evo participation is already extremely low, with between 20 to 40 posts per stage).
3)
nope nope nope nope nope nope. I do not want that genie to be let out of the bottle. However, I must add that if we DO allow Mega Evolution (and I'm going to assume that it's competitively focused), then we really will need to add in a stage for adding moves (not removing them, hell no), as some of the old CAP movepools are extremely outdated.
4)
Eh, I'm gonna have to say "no idea" here. Both approaches have their pros/cons so whatever.
5)
well I've already made it clear I don't want to see Mevos, but if we do allow them, they absolutely do need to be on showdown. Otherwise there's 0 point.


I just want to close out this post with a few questions for the supporting side - sure, there's a lot of interest about Mega Evolutions, but how much interest is there in Mega Evolution for CAPs? How many people are really qualified to talk about them competitively, given how few people know about the CAP meta? This is already a serious problem in CAP as a whole (what with how few people are actually OU qualified), and this just becomes more of an issue with how small the CAP metagame playerbase is, much less how small the portion of 'good players' is for it. Given this knowledge, can we still justify potentially screwing with the CAP metagame? Will there even be enough interest in a project focused around the CAP metagame to justify a CAP Mega Evolution project? My gut says no, but I could be wrong.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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nyttyn said:
Will there even be enough interest in a project focused around the CAP metagame to justify a CAP Mega Evolution project? My gut says no, but I could be wrong.
[20:00] HeaLnDeaL: who here would participate in a CAP mega project *if* one were to be made?
TSweb left
[20:01] HeaLnDeaL: vulpix mayhem, JigglykongisFUm16, cbrevan Elite Lord Sigma
[20:01] JigglykongisFUM16: wat
[20:01] +Elite Lord Sigma: I would.
[20:01] HeaLnDeaL: my question above
[20:01] JigglykongisFUM16: sure
[20:02] +cbrevan: sure
[20:02] %vulpix mayhem: ?
[20:02] HeaLnDeaL: k was just checking
[20:02] +cbrevan: i need to actually participate in cap at some point
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[20:02] JigglykongisFUM16: lets all agree not to have mega aurumoth
[20:02] JigglykongisFUM16: ;p
[20:02] JigglykongisFUM16: unless we want an ubers cap tier
[20:02] +Elite Lord Sigma: But Mega Aurumoth with Simple is such a great idea!
[20:02] JigglykongisFUM16: ^ well
[20:03] JigglykongisFUM16: u do have a point
[20:03] HeaLnDeaL: so you guys would say you're more likely to participate in a CAP mega project than the main project?
[20:03] JigglykongisFUM16: hmm, depends
[20:03] HeaLnDeaL: let's seriously not get ahead though. not saying anything happening. just testing participation levels.
[20:03] +Elite Lord Sigma: Maybe.
[20:04] HeaLnDeaL: well ELS already participates in main cap, so I guess that's a moot question for him
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[20:04] +cbrevan: i want to at least get involved with the next cap
[20:04] HeaLnDeaL: btw hi spark eating
[20:04] +hendrix96: hola
[20:04] HeaLnDeaL: hey hendrix
[20:04] spark eating: (Private to HeaLnDeaL) I'd participate in a mega project for sure
[20:04] %vulpix mayhem: mega kitsunoh :s
Moderated chat was disabled!
Anyone may talk now.
[20:05] HeaLnDeaL: spark, talk, share your wisdom
[20:05] spark eating: (Private to HeaLnDeaL) also can't talk bc modchat
[20:05] +hendrix96: what are you talking about vulpix
[20:05] HeaLnDeaL: (Private to spark eating) just disabled 30 seconds ago
[20:05] spark eating: ty, hey guys
[20:05] MarkHxC: vulpix are cool
[20:05] JigglykongisFUM16: mega kit i would endorse
[20:05] JigglykongisFUM16: yo spark
[20:05] HeaLnDeaL: alright, lemme start from the top
[20:05] JigglykongisFUM16: ^
[20:06] HeaLnDeaL: who here would be a super active participant if we had a CAP mega project?
[20:06] +hendrix96: i would :)
[20:06] JigglykongisFUM16: I would try to be
[20:06] spark eating: Me, absolutely
[20:06] spark eating: a lot of this room's regulars would be vital to the projects success
[20:06] JigglykongisFUM16: It's proabbly simpler than making a whole new cap
[20:06] • +hendrix96 has to play music
[20:07] • +hendrix96 will be back
[20:07] spark eating: bc of our knowledge of the cap meta
[20:07] spark eating: assuming it's based on that ofc
[20:07] JigglykongisFUM16: yea
[20:07] spark eating: im on my phone btw
[20:07] HeaLnDeaL: alright so you guys would also want a mega cap to be made with the meta game in mind, correct?
[20:07] %vulpix mayhem: Heal I would participate if we ever create a mega cap
spark eating left
[20:08] +hendrix96: i think it should be focused on the cap meta instead of ou
[20:08] +hendrix96: for mega's at least
[20:08] JigglykongisFUM16: yes HeaL
[20:08] JigglykongisFUM16: defintiely
[20:08] +cbrevan: yes, if only because i know nothing of ou atm
%sparktrain joined
[20:08] %sparktrain: ok on my comp now, screw mobile lol
[20:08] HeaLnDeaL: wb spark
[20:09] %sparktrain: but yeah, for a mega project, I think it'd be ideal to design it with the CAP meta in mind
[20:09] +hendrix96: ^^
[20:09] %sparktrain: It'd really put this room's talent to work
[20:09] HeaLnDeaL: alright, thanks guys, I'm going to share your opinions in the current PRC thread
[20:09] +hendrix96: cool :)


The above contains a less than 10 minutes span of time in which I asked the fraction of the the meta players that happened to be on at this time if they would be interested in the a CAP meta project. Brief summary of the conversation is that most people would in fact be interested (surprise), however they'd prefer the megas to be made for the CAP meta (and there was some concerns about certain already-powerful CAPs being eligible for a mega). Ununhexium seemed to echo this sentiment in his reply.

hexium said:
I think, because its the only place they will be able to be used in, we should not create them towards a concept, but rather simply to be successful in the CAP metagame.
Jas's post also contained some remarks about the meta potential CAP megas would be made for.

jas said:
Whether or not we have that should depend on the environment they are made for. That is something I will talk more about in a bit, but suffice it to say, they should, at least for a time, be playable in the meta they are made for.
The OP neglected to talk about whether or not mega CAPs should be made for the OU meta or the CAP meta. I was hoping that we'd discuss the general feelings towards CAP megas regardless of the meta they are made for, but it appears that such an issue has already surfaced and ignoring it anymore won't do us any good. The only two logical metas that CAP megas could possibly be made for are OU or the collective CAP meta. I can assure you that there are CAP meta players who would be very interested in having a mega project made for their meta. Comparatively, from what I've seen there is much less enthusiasm for making CAP megas for OU. However, this does not rule out the possibility. Furthermore, making megas for the CAP meta opens up some other potential concerns, which I will attempt to frame as a few questions:

-Does making a CAP mega for the CAP meta go against the spirit of CAP in which OU is the focus of research?
-Since CAP Prevos already exist and are not made for OU (or any meta or simulator), does that mean not every side project of CAP have to deal with OU?
-Carrying on from the above, since CAP Prevos are entirely for flavor, is their a significant difference from their creation compared to making something for an existing, non-OU metagame?
-Could CAP megas be made for a non-OU metagame without convoluting the premise of the OU-centric main CAP? Could these projects co-exist under the umbrella of CAP/the CAP family of forums?

Overall, I think that CAP Megas definitely pose a lot of concerns, and I'm hoping we can discuss these thoroughly in this thread. However, the concern of "there might not be enough participation" I don't think is particularly valid, or at the very least not at this stage. If it happens, there will be people who participate. This is simply a fact. Whether or not someone agrees that there will be enough people or if the participants are qualified is pretty darn subjective and I'm sure different opinions will crop up. I certainly don't want to paint CAP megas into the corner of being an interest purely by CAP meta players and purely for the meta. If that's the only outlook then we certainly don't have much to talk about, since the CAP meta players are fairly underrepresented in PRC. A small part of this discussion is just gathering a feeling for who would want to participate, and under what contexts they would want the project to be framed.

Taking a step back I think there's something else important to discuss. At the core of the thread is whether or not we should make megas (and if so, under what premise). This is meant to be framed under guidelines relating to the existing CAP "spirit" and is largely influenced on whether or not we think CAP megas and updating CAPs is allowable. CAP updates and edits have happened in the past before, but they are always a touchy subject. Is exploring the mechanic of mega evolution a good reason to "mess with" past CAP creations?

At this stage, the consensus seems to be that if CAP Megas are made, then they should be created with competitive intentions. If anyone disagrees with this notion, then I would love to here your thoughts. However, after a few more days if no one seems to contest this, then I think it would be wise to move forward with the idea of the project having some sort of competitive relevance. Within the next few days I'll try to get onto IRC and gather more opinions as well.
 

ginganinja

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Agreeing with nyttyn here. Lets face it, when the main project of CAP (that is, creating pokemon for the CAP metagame), is suffering from a lack of quality posters, how on earth could a "casual" project expect to meet the activity and quality required to make such a project a reality.I saw the log you posted, but really, I can only see two possible solutions. Either these people don't take part in the main CAP process but want to take part in a CAP Mega project, or they are regular "Main Project" CAP users that also want to involve themselves in a CAP Mega project. If its the latter, then most of us would prefer they spend their time assisting in quality posts for the main focus of CAP, and if its the latter, then you STILL don't have the activity or post quality for this side project, because you don't have it in the main project.

I don't particularly think the CAP Meta is in a particularly good place right now with low playerbase / ladder quality and an inability for newer users to really "jump into it". Its no exaggeration to say that the CAP metagame is one of the most complicated metagames to learn and one of the least rewarding to actually play (since official smogon metagames have stuff like Grand Slam, ST, SPL etc).

That said, I still don't really get the point of bringing in Mega Evos. its either a transparent attempt to revise previous CAPs, in which case you don't need Mega Evos to do such a thing, or its a transparent attempt to sidestep the previous ruling of "no CAP Mega's" by simply picking a base CAP and going nuts with whatever you like with it.

I don't think you are really "exploring" Mega Evolution (simply because there isn't much to really explore) as much as attempting to just create a CAP Mega Evolution.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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its either a transparent attempt to revise previous CAPs, in which case you don't need Mega Evos to do such a thing, or its a transparent attempt to sidestep the previous ruling of "no CAP Mega's"
The previous ruling explicitly left room for a future conversation about CAP megas for old CAPs.

"Exploring" mega evolution is such a loose phrase anyway and it can mean a number of different things. I certainly don't think a CAP mega can help us glean some secret seed of information that we never could have achieved from looking at megas that always exist. Exploring the possibility of CAP megas can be read as exploring how the mechanic can be integrated into a side-CAP project, or exploring results of the mega evolution for a specific mon. CAP is exploratory by nature, and it already seems like people don't want hypothetical CAP megas to just be flavor. Is this competitive, exploratory nature at all applicable via creating megas for past CAPs? Is it worth it? What are the positives/negatives?

Also, I can see that arguments about the quality of posters for a Mega project is a repeated concern. For now my comment is to keep in mind that CAP megas would probably be a much less involved process than main CAP. It would be less complicated, likely require less rigorous leadership, take less time, and maybe even be less demanding on having a large pool of people who are OU experts. You can argue that main CAP doesn't have enough quality users, but this project would be notably less extensive than main CAP.
 
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ginganinja

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It would be less complicated, likely require less rigorous leadership, take less time, and maybe even be less demanding on having a large pool of people who are OU experts. You can argue that main CAP doesn't have enough quality users, but this project would be notably less extensive than main CAP.
I apologise if this next comment is slightly rude (its not intended to be), but you have a process that takes less time (a positive), but has less people involved and less quality players involved in the discussion threads, but still requires a similar amount of active moderation as a main CAP. It...just seems like there are a heck of a lot more negatives here than there are positives.
 
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1) Do we want to allow Mega Evolutions for past CAPs? Is exploring the mechanic of mega evolution a good reason to "mess with" past CAP creations? What are the positives of allowing Mega Evolutions for past CAPs?
I'm going to skip to the second part of the question to start this off. No, mega evolution should not in and of itself be the final goal of a CAP update. If we're going to give a CAP a mega evolution, it should be because changes to the OU metagame make it unable to serve the function it was originally built to serve. That being said, I do feel that there are merits to giving CAPs mega-evolutions, and probably the finest example of this is Volkraken. There really isn't any reason for Volkraken to exist at all, and I'm saying this as a person who rather enjoys using Volkraken. Volkraken's entire concept is trying to do Voodoom better than Voodoom did Voodoom. That, in my opinion, was a waste of a concept. We could just as easily given Voodoom a Mega that worked slightly better with Togekiss along with another OU Pokemon to iron out the holes the concept had the first time around, and we would have learned just as much about the format if not more as we did on the Volkraken submission. It's also a way to update CAP pokemon while getting around the weird "preserve the CAP in the form it was intended" policy that we follow on and off. So at this point, I'm tempted to say maybe allowing Mega Evolution for previous CAPs is what we want, but I'm going to say that it's not certain. There are other ways to approach this.


2) Do we want to make MEvos just for fun or for a competitive goal?
I don't really see any merit in making this a just for fun goal, as we already have Pre-Evos for that. If we're making it, it should be for competitive purposes, especially since every argument that justifies its existence at all is predicated on the MEvo actually ever seeing play.

3) Do we want to allow additional movepool revisions to occur during the creation of MEvos? (If so, will we have restrictions on this?)
I'd say it would probably be for the best, but you aren't going to find anyone who's going to want to actually do that. The forum is generally against movepool changes of any kind, even if it's for the best. I suppose the long and short of it is yes it should happen, no we don't want it to happen. Thus it won't happen.

4) Do we want the MEvo to be an enhanced version of the original concept, or is a new concept altogether feasible? Or would either option be acceptable depending on the situation?
I don't think jumping on a new concept would actually gain us anything, as if we wanted an actually new concept (the key here is actually new, Volkraken), building a CAP around the concept would probably get us much further in actually learning something new than trying to force a new concept on an old palette.

5) Do we want to have the MEvos on the battle simulator? If so, do we want to have a playtest for MEvos?
I don't see why we would even bother having a MEvo if we weren't going to implement it. Again, if we just want this as a time-wasting technique, we could just put more effort into making the Pre-Evo discussions more appealing.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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Alright, at this point I have just been asking a bunch of questions and not answering much. I imagine many of you have figured I’m personally leaning towards the side in favor of having megas for past CAPmons. While this is true, I also want to say I also have some big concerns, particularly in regards to movepool alterations. If some good no-mega arguments surface, I might switch sides later on.

2) Do we want to make MEvos just for fun or for a competitive goal? [And if they are to be competitive, would they be made for OU or the CAP meta?]
So far, I think the prevailing opinion for this is that megas should inherently be competitive. While I have absolutely no qualms about during purely flavor megas just for fun, I for the most part agree that having a competitive intent for megas seems to be the best fit. CAP prevos already exist for pure flavor, and there seems to be a large number of CAP meta players who would love make a competitive mega.

This of course then brings up the intended environment in which we would hypothetically make these megas. OU and the CAP metagame are really the only logical choices; CAPs are designed for OU and past CAPs can only be played in the CAP meta. So far, of those who seem to be interested in megas at all, it seems the preference would be for them to be made for the CAP meta. While I have no problems with megas for past CAPs being made with OU in mind, the majority of the support is towards the CAP meta at this time. And I do think that making megas for the CAP meta does provide some nice benefits.

There are people in the CAP meta who participate in the main CAP process. But there’s also a large portion that doesn’t. I can in particular remember a conversation I had with one meta player who said she wished to get involved in main CAP but that she feared she wasn’t ready because it was too complicated. Overall, I think that making megas for the CAP meta would be a good way to introduce some users to many of the basic premises of the main CAP creation process. Getting meta players on the forums and creating something I think will encourage their interest in main CAP.

Now, I’m not going to say that the CAP meta needs these megas. I’m under the assumption that the meta is fairly balanced, but there are of course a few centralizing Pokemon such as Tomohawk. Adding CAP megas to the meta has the opportunity of checking some of these Pokemon, though to what degree is always questionable. But I think this also leads into some fears of certain CAPmons getting megas. Certainly the likes of Tomohawk or even Colossoil would be overpowered with competitive megas. Having megas inherently brings up a question of which CAPmons deserve a mega or not. Ultimately I think this is a question for a later date, but for our purposes here I think megas have the potential to balance out certain CAPmons or to positively break others.

3) Do we want to allow additional movepool revisions to occur during the creation of MEvos? (If so, will we have restrictions on this?)
Personally, I don’t think we need movepool revisions at all. I’m under the impression that they’d be a waste of time, and that they’d encourage movepool revisions for other non-mega CAPmons, which I really don’t want. That said, I don’t think movepool revisions would be particularly broken if proper restrictions are in place.

-As people have mentioned so far, movepool revisions for megas should only include additional moves, and no moves should be removed.
-If movepool additions occur, then they should be limited only to moves that were created in generations after the CAPmon was created. For example, Mega Kitsunoh would not be able to gain Fire Punch because Fire Punch was already a move when Kit was made.
-Movepool additions should be limited by a very strict maximum number of allowed new moves. This maximum number must be an exact quantity. I would initially go ahead and suggest three new moves as the maximum. Adding too many moves just makes it seem like we’re revising the base form instead of focusing on the mega.
-Additionally, no matter what movepool additions are submitted and/or slated in the hypothetical mega creation process, an option for no movepool additions should always be slated as well. This is similar to how the original typing is always an option for CAP prevos.
-Any movepool additions should not have the potential to significantly mess with the intention of the base CAPmon. For example, a (Mega) Fidgit would not be able to learn Shift Gear.

4) Do we want the MEvo to be an enhanced version of the original concept, or is a new concept altogether feasible? Or would either option be acceptable depending on the situation?
I’m fairly wishwashy on this one, as I think both options could work… I think some CAPmons could have great megas just by enhancing the original concept, whereas others would perform better with getting a new direction or a concept tweak. In regards to this question, I would propose that participating users should be able to propose how they think the mega should have its concept structured. Ultimately, after the base CAPmon is chosen, I believe we would need a relatively full-out concept assessment to decide which direction to take. I don’t necessarily think concept submissions would be a good idea, but rather a general discussion thread with the intention of sorting out the overall competitive goal for the particular mega. Of course, the actual process is up in the air at this point, and my general answer to the question here is that the mega’s competitive concept should have the potential to shift, though it should also have the option of remaining the same as the base’s original concept.

5) Do we want to have the MEvos on the battle simulator? If so, do we want to have a playtest for MEvos?
Ideally, I would like to have them on the simulator. In terms of a playtest, I’m not sure that a separate playtest ladder is necessary if we make the mega for the CAP meta. However, it would be pretty important to have a playtest ladder if the mega is made with OU in mind.

1) Do we want to allow Mega Evolutions for past CAPs?Is exploring the mechanic of mega evolution a good reason to "mess with" past CAP creations? What are the positives of allowing Mega Evolutions for past CAPs?
While I don’t think they are necessary, and I don’t think we must have them, I think making mega evolutions for past CAPs simply would be a lot of fun. If we take a competitive approach, it would be a great way to get users (particularly meta players) onto the forums and help them build some of the skills needed to participate in the main CAP process. Ultimately, in terms of messing with past CAP creations, I think that as long as the base isn’t altered to anything beyond its past intentions, then making megas should be fine. Ultimately, movepool additions are the only thing that would actually alter the stand-alone base Pokemon on the servers, and that’s why I’m not a big fan of them in the first place. As long as movepool additions are done very carefully (or not at all) then I don’t see how this would mess up past CAP creations. Furthermore, we will always have records of the original CAPmons thanks to the process archives. I still have more thoughts on CAP megas in general but I’ll hold off for now since I don’t want to make a ridiculously long post (sorry that it's long as it is already).
 

ginganinja

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I started reading the entire thing but couldn't get past this paragraph.

Now, I’m not going to say that the CAP meta needs these megas. I’m under the assumption that the meta is fairly balanced, but there are of course a few centralizing Pokemon such as Tomohawk. Adding CAP megas to the meta has the opportunity of checking some of these Pokemon, though to what degree is always questionable. But I think this also leads into some fears of certain CAPmons getting megas. Certainly the likes of Tomohawk or even Colossoil would be overpowered with competitive megas. Having megas inherently brings up a question of which CAPmons deserve a mega or not. Ultimately I think this is a question for a later date, but for our purposes here I think megas have the potential to balance out certain CAPmons or to positively break others.
O.k, so I'm going to bulletpoint the main issues with this paragraph.

1. You said earlier in your post that you believed the best metagame to support Mega CAPs was the CAP Metagame. Despite this, you go on to say that you don't think its needed. Therefore the question remains, why do we need to have them.

2. I hate hate hate hate hate what comes next:

Adding CAP megas to the meta has the opportunity of checking some of these Pokemon
I hope I'm not directly attempting to take what you said out of context, but when I read that line, I interpret your main argument for having Mega CAPs is to serve as a balancing mechanism for the CAP Metagame. The fact that further down you mention that you would like to consider "positively breaking" Mega CAPs further supports my premise that you just want CAP to directly influence its "unofficial" metagame. As an aside here, there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to influence / fix / balance / change the CAP metagame, heck, I wouldn't mind looking at that someday (in an entirely different thread of course), but all I can see is you pushing this agenda as a tool for you to legally influence the metagame as you wish, and it just seems a manipulation of this proposal.

If we take a competitive approach, it would be a great way to get users (particularly meta players) onto the forums and help them build some of the skills needed to participate in the main CAP process. Ultimately, in terms of messing with past CAP creations, I think that as long as the base isn’t altered to anything beyond its past intentions, then making megas should be fine.
There are two fundamental problems with this. Firstly you made the claim that newer users don't want to get involved in a CAP process because its too complicated. On the other hand, that same person cannot by extension get involved in a CAP Mega project, because the process is still, if not more so, very complicated. If they wish to build the skills, then they can post in a main CAP process, or heck, as I understand there is a pre-evo process that also goes on (God knows what actually occurs in that process though) if they want the tools to learn how to contribute. You don't need to create an entire Mega project to get newer users to post, because if they didn't want to post in the original CAP process, then why would they post in a Mega project.

Secondly, you cannot, under any circumstances create a CAP to balance another (such as say, checking Tomohawk) while staying true to its original concept. This is because its original concept is dedicated towards the OU metagame that existed when it was created, NOT the current CAP metagame. You cannot have it both ways, you legitimately need to pick one or the other, and considering your earlier points within your post, I feel certain your way will result in the Mega CAP tailoring itself more toward balancing the metagame, than fulfilling its actual concept.

Like, after thinking it over, the only argument I can possibly forsee in which Mega CAPs could actually be "ok" is if we used a Mega CAP to "update" the base CAPs process. For instance, Aurumoth could be updated to actually be "risky" unlike the safe, unhealthy broken piece of shit that it was but then again, you don't actually NEED a Mega evolution to change a previous CAP, all you really need is the CAP administration being willing to look back and adjust past concepts. Thats getting a little bit off track but still, after thinking about it a great deal I just don't see a fundamental reason to actually have Mega CAPs, without it serving as a tool to further personal bias relative to the CAP metagame.
 

Bughouse

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I agree with much of what ginganinja said.

Aside from that, to me, Mega Evolutions for past CAPs has always seemed to be a backdoor into CAP revisions, something I have never and will never support. I understand Doug's concerns that CAP totally ignoring Mega Evolution means that CAP is ignoring perhaps the most fundamental part of Gen VI Pokemon. But I'm not convinced that means we have to do something with Mega Evolution, and I'm certainly not convinced that this is the right way to do it. It looks like precisely the wrong way to me.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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Time to clarify? I don't even know anymore... Ginjaninja and I might always have some pretty fundamental disagreements, but there are definitely some things that I don't understand with what is being complained about.

1. You said earlier in your post that you believed the best metagame to support Mega CAPs was the CAP Metagame. Despite this, you go on to say that you don't think its needed. Therefore the question remains, why do we need to have them.
No, I do not think having CAP Megas is needed. CAP can be just fine without them (heck, prevos aren't needed either). Instead, I just think it would be a fun thing to do and would get some new users involved in a creation process.

I hope I'm not directly attempting to take what you said out of context, but when I read that line, I interpret your main argument for having Mega CAPs is to serve as a balancing mechanism for the CAP Metagame. The fact that further down you mention that you would like to consider "positively breaking" Mega CAPs further supports my premise that you just want CAP to directly influence its "unofficial" metagame. As an aside here, there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to influence / fix / balance / change the CAP metagame, heck, I wouldn't mind looking at that someday (in an entirely different thread of course), but all I can see is you pushing this agenda as a tool for you to legally influence the metagame as you wish, and it just seems a manipulation of this proposal.
All I said was that Mega CAPs have the potential to help balance the meta. However, I also expressed concerns that giving the WRONG CAPmon a mega could potentially break things as well. Having Mega CAPs balance the meta is positively far from my main argument. My main argument is that it would be a fun process the could potentially get some meta players experience with a toned-down creation process (and thus ready for a more all-out main CAP). The point of even mentioning balance is to express the idea that there are some CAPmons that positively NEVER should get a mega, such as Tomohawk.

Firstly you made the claim that newer users don't want to get involved in a CAP process because its too complicated. On the other hand, that same person cannot by extension get involved in a CAP Mega project, because the process is still, if not more so, very complicated. If they wish to build the skills, then they can post in a main CAP process, or heck, as I understand there is a pre-evo process that also goes on (God knows what actually occurs in that process though) if they want the tools to learn how to contribute. You don't need to create an entire Mega project to get newer users to post, because if they didn't want to post in the original CAP process, then why would they post in a Mega project.
There is absolutely positively no way that a CAP mega process would be more complicated than the CAP main process. It will be considerably less complicated. There would be a typing stage, one ability stage, a much more restricted stat stage, and a super incredibly restricted movepool stage if one at all. This is considerably less complicated than main CAP and there is no way getting around that.

Because it is less complicated but (as the conversation seems to be running towards) will likely still be competitively geared, it offers a difference to CAP prevo, which is pretty much just flavor. So many people in the CAP room on showdown HAVE expressed their interest in doing a mega CAP. There will be posters, despite your fervent claims that there won't be.

Secondly, you cannot, under any circumstances create a CAP to balance another (such as say, checking Tomohawk) while staying true to its original concept. This is because its original concept is dedicated towards the OU metagame that existed when it was created, NOT the current CAP metagame. You cannot have it both ways, you legitimately need to pick one or the other, and considering your earlier points within your post, I feel certain your way will result in the Mega CAP tailoring itself more toward balancing the metagame, than fulfilling its actual concept.
No, you cannot have balancing and staying true to the original concepts be the number one priority at the same time (I agree with you on this). However, it has yet to be decided if keeping the original concept will even be the best thing to. I also don't think making a Mega to check a current CAPmon should ever be our *number one* priority. But you see, CAP is a process, and mons are made for a meta. If they are made for the CAP meta, there is no way that we can tell participants to NOT use logic and calcs regarding top CAP threats when making submissions. In main CAP, we want users to think about how the CAPmon will win against top threats, and how it will lose to others. Therefore, it's just stupid to go out and tell people to make a CAP mega for the CAP metagame but then tell them that they shouldn't try and take CAP threats into consideration.
 
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nyttyn

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No, I do not think having CAP Megas is needed. CAP can be just fine without them (heck, prevos aren't needed either). Instead, I just think it would be a fun thing to do and would get some new users involved in a creation process.
Hello my name is the CAP Pre-Evolution Workshop, and I am just a fun thing to do, with no real benefit to the CAP project. Look at how popular I am!


That's really all the counter-argument that's needed I think.

Edit: No offense meant to pre-evo users, of course, but it's pretty much living proof that side-projects are not of much interest to the CAP public.
 
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HeaLnDeaL

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You know, except that little part where CAP prevo is pure flavor, with no competitive intent. And CAP meta players have relatively little interest in pure flavor.

EDIT: I course have absolutely no problem with CAP prevo. Heck, CAP prevo is exactly how I got involved with CAP! I don't think CAP megas need a giant userbase to be successful; CAP prevo doesn't have a giant userbase and I still think of it as successful. CAP prevos is great for flavor and understanding the basic process of main CAP, and I think CAP megas can attract a userbase from meta players and those interested in competitive components.
 
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Many of the CAP metagame players don't actually participate in the process. While they are very knowledgable about the final products, they tend to not participate in the actual creation process. Honestly getting started is probably the hardest step in CAP for people who have never been involved in the process. And lurking for 1, 2 projects not only takes up at least half a year, but is hard to do because you're not actively participating. Just like CAP Prevos entice people like Heal, who love art, there are some people who really like the competitive aspect of CAP. It's these people, specifically who play the CAP meta but don't participate too heavily or at all in the creation process, that would truly benefit from having CAP megas. And it would benefit CAP as well because these people are good people who want to participate and will do CAP good. If people are leaving CAP, doesn't it seem like a good thing to add a new part, CAP megas, which would attract an already interested group of people to the CAP process itself? This would increase the number of good participants and make the discussions better.

There are probably a good 15-20 people who are fairly active in the CAP meta but do not participate in the creation process. Starting is hard, and the process is long. But its very fun and rewarding when done right. Especially when every day you get to see what you created in action. And the people in the showdown room want to make CAP megas, and this can be a great way to snag a nice group of people into CAP that otherwise would not actively participate.
 

ginganinja

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O.k so it seems there are a number of issues facing Mega CAPs, so I'll just summarize them if people missed the earlier IRC chat etc.

1. Its a CAP, made purely for the people who actually play CAP...but don't post, that is, they do not involve themselves with any "main" CAP projects, ie the creation of CAPs for the OU metagame. You can argue that the main process is "too complicated" or whatever, but I still think the issues will still be there even in a CAP Mega process, the process might end up taking less time, but that doesn't mean the discussion will be good (remember, we have quality issues in discussion thread in MAIN CAP projects, let alone a sub project such as this one), or the steps less complicated. These are users that (you even admit), don't even post in the competitive metagame discussions we have, and you hope to have BETTER discussion threads than those we have in a main CAP project. Remembering mind you, that (putting it bluntly), the CAP Ladder is currently still so bad that "Top 10" doesn't really matter at all. That said, even putting all of that aside, there isn't even a guarantee, or anything similar that these users would even contribute to the main CAP process, even if we did do a Mega Evo. I'm fairly certain that if we did attempt this, we might get a surge of activity (at least initially), among the MEGA CAP supporters, but highly doubt it would translate to my usage in a Main CAP Project, or even that these users would be competitive enough to overcome the bad player > good player ratio currently in a CAP process.

2. If you make a MEGA CAP, its going to be broken. This is really one of the more stronger arguments imo, because I don't really think you can actually claim otherwise that the CAP community (currently), couldn't make a Mega CAP that isn't utterly broken. Some of the standard CAPs we make today are already fairly broken. Cawmodore for instance is a controversial nomination for a broken CAP, although I am fairly certain Aurumoth is a pretty excellent example of a broken CAP. Obviously, these pokemon won't get Mega Evos (apparently at least), but you are tacking on 100 BST onto previous CAPs that already have inflated stats (because voters err on Power when voting...and you expect the creation to be balanced. Mega Lopunny can go from NU to OU with just on a Mega Evo, so giving a Mega Evo to old CAPs (many of which are potentially even OU viable even without a Mega Evo) and expecting the result to be balanced is insane. Not to mention, you are entrusting this task to a CAP playerbase thats already proven itself to fail at balancing a pokemon...except now you want to include a ton of more players from the CAP Meta, that don't post in competitive CAP discussion threads...and expect them to be able to end up with a balanced CAP!

Lastly, I'm not even sure we gain anything. Like ok, strictly speaking we don't even gain much from OU CAPs anymore because the questions we want out concept to answer are either obvious to anyone that plays competative pokemon...or we don't even up answering them anyway but hey, at least we TRY to learn something new about each individual CAP (even if its limited to "lets not have Aurumonth happen ever again"). Ignoring absolutely everything that could be possible wrong or negative about a Mega CAP there still isn't really much you could even learn from it that we don't already know. Heck, its not even like these CAPs would be built for the OU metagame, so you are hoping to learn something new with a Mega CAP about a metagame next to nobody bothers to even play -__-.

These negatives are in addition to my earlier post btw, which I still don't think has ben addressed / countered enough to even consider allowing a Mega CAP.
 
There are people in the CAP meta who participate in the main CAP process. But there’s also a large portion that doesn’t. I can in particular remember a conversation I had with one meta player who said she wished to get involved in main CAP but that she feared she wasn’t ready because it was too complicated. Overall, I think that making megas for the CAP meta would be a good way to introduce some users to many of the basic premises of the main CAP creation process. Getting meta players on the forums and creating something I think will encourage their interest in main CAP.
This seems like a pretty awful way to get competitive CAP players into the CAP process, as if anything this would be a more complicated process that making a regular CAP. Not only do you have to re-evaulave the CAP's original intended purpose, which isn't something most players who didn't participate in that CAPs process are actually going to know or understand, but you also have to evaluate how the movepool is was already given affects what spread it has. There's a reason we do stat spreads and abilities before we even touch the movepool; building backwards from the movepool to the stat distribution is one of the most arduous tasks you can take up.

Now, I’m not going to say that the CAP meta needs these megas. I’m under the assumption that the meta is fairly balanced, but there are of course a few centralizing Pokemon such as Tomohawk. Adding CAP megas to the meta has the opportunity of checking some of these Pokemon, though to what degree is always questionable. But I think this also leads into some fears of certain CAPmons getting megas. Certainly the likes of Tomohawk or even Colossoil would be overpowered with competitive megas. Having megas inherently brings up a question of which CAPmons deserve a mega or not. Ultimately I think this is a question for a later date, but for our purposes here I think megas have the potential to balance out certain CAPmons or to positively break others.
The issue with that logic is that most pokemon built well for OU are going to do well in CAP. This is pretty evident given how thoroughly ORAS-Greninja ruined our metagame. Further, none of the CAPs we would ever consider giving a mega to (Voodoom, Pyroak, and maybe Malaconda as a stretch) would have a positive match-up against the centralizing pokemon of the CAP metagame. Voodoom is hard countered by Gardevoir, Pyroak can't get past Taunt Tomohawk, and Malaconda can't beat Mollux. Even if we add Plasmanta to the list of viable CAPable pokemon (which we shouldn't. It's stats would be too high no matter how you distribute the 100), that would still have a bad match-up against Colossoil.
 

jas61292

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I have a lot to say on what is being talked about, and will hopefully post more later today (or just edit it in here), but I did just want to briefly comment on one of the issues that is being talked about at the moment; specifically, that megas would be broken. Frankly, that is a shit argument. I see mention of how megas take NU Pokemon and make them OU, and sure, they do. But that is also conveniently ignoring all the cases of where they take OU quality Pokemon and stay completely OU balanced. Hell, there are cases of great OU Pokemon (S rank in viability, even) having megas that are considered not only balanced, but often worse than the base form. To insinuate that taking Pokemon, many of which are/would be quite bad in the current CAP/OU environment and giving them a Mega guarantees that they would be broken is to show ignorance for how existing megas have turned out. We are the masters of our creations. We don't need to give earth-shattering abilities to every mega or whatever. CAP Pokemon, mega or otherwise, are only as broken as we allow them to be.

Yes, as people have obviously pointed out, we have screwed up in the past, and yes, there are examples of Pokemon we made that were broken in their playtest environment. But there are plenty of CAPs (most of them, in fact) where this is not the case. 100 BST is a lot, competitively, but no item and using a mega slot is huge too. I just don't believe that there is any credible reason why this would prevent us from trying a project like this. Any time we do anything we have a chance to screw it up. If we let that stop us from doing something, we would never do anything. As you guys know, I am almost always the most conservative guy when it comes to the actual elements of a CAP project. I hate breaking things. But in order for us to have interesting projects, that possibility pretty much has to exist, otherwise we are restricting ourselves from covering many of the most important aspects of the game.

With that said, I am definitely quite torn on this issue as a whole. There are compelling arguments on both sides, and I am not saying here that we should definitely do a mega project. All I'm saying is that the "broken" argument is garbage, and not something we should even be discussing here.
 

DougJustDoug

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(I discussed this on IRC with srk and jas a couple of weeks ago. I have copied most of my personal comments from that IRC convo and edited them together into a post-like series of paragraphs. The real chat log is contained at the end, if you'd rather see the full conversation in context, with all the back-and-forth and srk and jas' comments.)


I'm really concerned about what to do with Mega evolution and CAP. I have not commented in this PR thread, but I think it is a huge optics thing for CAP now. I have always been opposed to it in the past. And based on my former reasoning, I stand behind that still.

But Mega evolution is, without a doubt, the most significant defining aspect of the 6th generation. And CAP is intentionally avoiding it completely. The reasons to avoid it are sound. But the result is simply inexcusable. From an optics standpoint, I think we look like idiots.

Here on the CAP project, we are making new pokemon and expecting people to be interested in them. And GameFreak is making all these new things that people are FASCINATED with, both competitively and otherwise -- and yet CAP is acting like they don't exist and are unnecessary for our community project.

Listen, I have staunchly opposed megas for CAP. It's just to the point where Megas are such a huge deal in competitive Pokemon, the biggest deal actually -- and the mechanic has no discussion or play in CAP at all. None. I just think it is to the point where CAP can't afford to NOT have a Mega in some form or fashion. I just have no fucking clue how to do it without it being a shitstorm or a fan circlejerk.

My current thinking is that CAP should just declare a project (perhaps the next project or the project after that) as "The Mega CAP" -- and we make a new pokemon completely AND give it a mega at the same time. Don't mess with anything in the existing game or past CAPs. Process-wise, I have no idea how to control something like that. But that's the only way I can see it possibly working. Every other proposal (megas for existing pokemon or past CAPs) is totally doomed, imo. "Doomed" as in "fan circlejerk", mostly.

In the past, I have opposed Mega evolutions for "real" CAP projects, or whatever. I have always felt like Megas would be a distraction for projects where we make new pokemon. Maybe I didn't voice that objection clearly in the past, but I always felt that way. If we did mega evolutions in CAP, I felt they should be a side project. Not a main focus project for CAP. I envisioned them as a side project, with roughly the same amount of complexity and participation as Prevos.

But now I think Megas have just become too big a deal, even for a side project for CAP. The process for making a Pokemon+Mega would have to be different than the regular CAP process, for sure. And I agree that would be a nightmare to define and administer.

Maybe we could do a Mega evo for a previous CAP (using a process not unlike the process we use for Prevos) as a sort of "time filler" here as the new ORAS stuff settles in? But even as I read what I just typed, I think of so many reasons NOT to do that. There's no reason to make a "flavor Mega", because the driver for us to do Megas is BECAUSE THEY ARE SO COMPETITIVELY RELEVANT. That's a Catch 22 for CAP.

We have to figure out something with Megas. Ever since ORAS came out, Mega-evolution is one those things where I think CAP needs to start from an end result and work backwards to figure out a way to make it happen. If we "work forwards" from where we are now, we won't get there.

[16:23:02] <DougJustDoug> I'm also really concerned about what to do with Mega evolution and CAP.
[16:23:24] <DougJustDoug> I have not commented in the PR thread, but I think its a huge optics thing for CAP now
[16:23:34] <srk1214> I'm opposed to it in all circumstances but haven't posted that
[16:24:09] <DougJustDoug> I have always been opposed to it. And based on my former reasoning, I stand behind that still.
[16:25:15] <DougJustDoug> But Mega evolution is, without a doubt, the most significant defining aspect of the 6th generation. And CAP is intentionally avoiding it completely.
[16:25:38] <DougJustDoug> The reasons to avoid it are sound. But the result is simply inexcusable.
[16:25:49] <srk1214> it's still true that no pokes built in the 6th gen mega evolve
[16:26:00] <srk1214> and there should be no in-game type reason to force us to do it
[16:26:06] <DougJustDoug> I agree.
[16:26:36] <DougJustDoug> But from an optics standpoint, I think we look like idiots.
[16:28:03] <srk1214> I don't think that's true
[16:28:24] <srk1214> we don't create abilities or moves anymore and we've never created an item
[16:28:31] <DougJustDoug> We are making new pokemon and expecting people to be interested in them. And GameFreak is making all these new things that people are FASCINATED with, both competitively and otherwise -- and yet CAP is acting like they don't exist and are unnecessary for our community project.
[16:28:42] <srk1214> CAP has never holistically examined every possible aspect of a meta
[16:29:34] <DHR> It's impossible to do that
[16:29:50] <srk1214> I don't think people would be exponentially more excited about CAP if it had mega evolution
[16:29:56] <srk1214> those who like CAP would still like CAP
[16:30:09] <srk1214> and those who think it's a dumb fanboy project will still think that (possibly even more so)
[16:30:20] <DougJustDoug> I agree srk. Listen, I have staunchly opposed megas for CAP. It's just to the point where Megas are such a huge deal in competitive Pokemon, the biggest deal actually -- and the mechanic has no discussion or play in CAP at all. None.
[16:30:48] <srk1214> you sound like you're trying to convince yourself
[16:30:52] <srk1214> and I don't think it's a good idea
[16:31:32] <DougJustDoug> I just think it is to the point where CAP can't afford to NOT have a Mega in some form or fashion.
[16:32:11] <DougJustDoug> I just have no fucking clue how to do it without it being a shitstorm or a fan circlejerk
[16:32:12] <srk1214> well, I oppose doing mega evolutions for previous CAPs
[16:32:22] <srk1214> as that will amount to movepool edits
[16:32:26] <srk1214> that affect the general CAP meta
[16:32:51] <srk1214> is there any compromise with doing EVO 2.0?
[16:32:56] <srk1214> mega evolving an existing mon?
[16:35:42] <DougJustDoug> My current thinking is that CAP should just declare a project (perhaps the next project or the project after that) as "The Mega CAP" -- and we make a new pokemon completely AND give it a mega atthe same time. Don't mess with anything in the existing game or pst CAPs.
[16:36:33] <DougJustDoug> Process wise, i have no idea how to control something like that. But that's the only way I can see it possbily working.
[16:37:15] <DougJustDoug> Every other proposal (megas for existing pokemon or past CAPs) is totally doomed, imo.
[16:37:55] <DougJustDoug> "Doomed" as in "fan circlejerk", mostly
[16:40:11] <srk1214> once you allow that the first time
[16:40:17] <srk1214> people will wonder why not the second time
[16:40:23] <srk1214> even if the first was procedurally a train wreck
[16:43:24] <DougJustDoug> Perhaps we just look at the ratio of Megas to OU pokemon and determine the ratio of CAPs that will be Megas. Then declare every Nth CAP project will be a "Mega CAP". That way, we don't have some stupid vote every time, nor is it just some random occurrence left to subjective CAP leadership to decide.
[16:48:04] <jas61292> I'm actually curious about what you are saying about your position Doug. Originally, I was completely against any form of mega evolution in CAP, but in the original thread, you were actually the one who proposed Mega Evolutions for past CAPs, and it was your reasoning there that convinced me that it would be a good approach. So it seems odd to me for you to be saying that you never thought it was a good idea.
[16:52:42] <DougJustDoug> I have opposed Mega evolutions for "real" CAP projects, or whatever. I have always felt like Megas would be a distraction for projects where we make new pokemon.
[16:53:17] <DougJustDoug> Maybe I didn't voice that objection clearly in the past, but I always felt that way.
[16:54:33] <DougJustDoug> If we did mega evolutions in CAP, I felt they should be a side project. Not a main focus project for CAP
[16:55:22] <jas61292> Ok, that's what I thought you had been saying. And that has pretty much been my view as well
[16:54:40] <srk1214> I don't see how you distinguish real from not real
[16:55:30] <DougJustDoug> Well, I envisioned them as a side project, with roughly the same amount of complexity and participation as Prevos.
[16:56:17] <DougJustDoug> The term "real" was quoted because I was using it ambiguously
[16:56:59] <srk1214> I mean, when the megas get new moves added
[16:57:16] <srk1214> how do you keep them from being added to the onsite learnset and being learnable on PS
[16:57:21] <srk1214> it will be demanded
[16:57:23] <DougJustDoug> But now I think Megas have just becomes too big a deal, even for a side project for CAP
[16:57:23] <jas61292> Really, the key to me, as far as being not "real" is just "not a project following the main CAP process"
[16:58:46] <DougJustDoug> The process for making a Pokemon+Mega would have to be different than the regular CAP process, for sure. And I agree that would be a nightmare to define and administer.
[17:00:33] <jas61292> My opinions really have not changed on them since the start of the generation. I just don't think its worth the hassle for a main project. Specifically, I don't think that doing a Pokemon AND its MEvo at the same time is a good idea, in any capacity. In my mind, if we are doing a Mega Project, it should be a project to make a Mega. Not a Project to make a Pokemon and a mega at the same time
[17:01:37] <jas61292> Thats both from an administrative view, and from a Pokemon centric view. Megas, practically by definition are changes to an already existing mon. I think it goes against the whole idea to make the mega at the same time as the mon
[17:02:49] <jas61292> My issue with using existing, non-CAP mons is... well... EVO. I wasn't arround for that, but I have read the threads, and I don't see how something like this would end up different. Plus I just don't like potentially conflicting with a future mega.
[17:03:15] <DougJustDoug> You make good points, jas.
[17:06:34] <DougJustDoug> Maybe we could do a Mega evo for a previous CAP (using a process not unlike the process we use for Prevos) as a sort of "time filler" here as the new ORAS stuff settles in?
[17:07:01] <srk1214> if it amounts to lasting revisions, I'm not interested
[17:07:15] <srk1214> if it is explicitly for one time exploration, I guess
[17:08:21] <DougJustDoug> But even as I read what I just typed, I think of so many reasons NOT to do that
[17:08:41] <jas61292> My main concern with that is the competitiveness level. Prevos are non-competitive, so doing them makes very little difference. Megas are very, very competitive, so I would be concerned with what comes of them. If they are going to exist, they should be usable, imo, and if they are usable, they should be done with purpose, and not just a "this is cool" thing. It doesn't need to be as in depth as a main project, but I would want some goal in mind for it.
[17:09:38] <DougJustDoug> jas -- that is exactly what I was thinking too after I typed it
[17:09:57] <DougJustDoug> There's no reason to make a "flavor Mega"
[17:10:23] <DougJustDoug> Because the driver for us to do Megas is BECAUSE THEY ARE SO COMPETITIVELY RELEVANT
[17:10:32] <DougJustDoug> Catch 22
[17:10:34] <DougJustDoug> for CAP
[17:14:20] <DougJustDoug> We have to figure out something with Megas. Ever since ORAS came out, Mega-evolution is one of two things where I think CAP needs to start from an end result and work backwards to figure out a way to make it happen. If we "work forwards" from where we are now, we won't get there.
 

ginganinja

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Hell, there are cases of great OU Pokemon (S rank in viability, even) having megas that are considered not only balanced, but often worse than the base form. To insinuate that taking Pokemon, many of which are/would be quite bad in the current CAP/OU environment and giving them a Mega guarantees that they would be broken is to show ignorance for how existing megas have turned out.
Firstly, you are going to struggle to find many OU Mega's that are actually worse than the base form. To do so implies that the Mega isn't worthy of OU usage since its base form is strictly better. I really don't know how you can start a statement with "OU Pokemon". and then end it with " OU Mega's that are worse than their base forms", because that list is going to be pretty darn small, and I suspect most of the pokemon on that initial list are going to be largely subjective anyway.(Legit the only ones that game to mind are like Mega Lati@s, Garchomp, Zam and maybe Gyarados, and all of them have compelling arguments to argue either side).

Secondly I would argue that saying the CAP Mega's wouldn't be broken shows a large degree of naivety towards the CAP process as a whole. The CAP mon with the lowest BST would be Malaconda with 500, followed by Kitsunoh with 513 BST, with a glorious Ghost/Steel typing. Aurumoth has 600, Krilowatt has 570, Volkraken has 555 and so on. I will never, ever claim that BST has a direct correlation to whether a pokemon is broken or not, but cmon, you are giving these flat BSTs a 100 point boost, opening up the opportunities for new and more powerful typings, as well as better abilities, and you think such pokemon wouldn't be broken? People vote in CAP for a variety of different reasons. Some fanboy a particular move/typing/ability, others see CAP more as a journey and thus don't care about its finished product (even if its broken), because we "learnt something", while others are just terrible at knowing whats broken and whats not, and vote for power options because they couldn't care less. This is hardly a valuable environment to keep something balanced, and I'm afraid that, judging from the previous votes that CAP has done, I have 0 faith that the CAP "community" could vote in a particularly intelligent way. Maybe in the future, idk, but when you have more bad players than good players involved, and an overwhelming bias against favouring typical "power" options, I just don't believe the CAP playerbase could possibly be responsible enough to handle a Mega CAP. Sure, we have balanced CAPs in the past, but only after the TLs ruthlessly exhaust all the potential "broken" options, and even then some fall through the cracks (Cawmodore).

Thirdly, each CAP "base form" underwent a process that named itself "Checks and Counters". I guarantee you that people want to go into a Mega CAP with the purpose of making the Mega CAP 200% better than its original base form. Unfortunately, I fail to see how you can tack 100 BST on a pokemon and actually keep said CAP mons checks and counters. How are you going to wall Cawmondore when it puts its extra stat points into HP and, oh I don't know, Special Defence? Are you going to outrun Volkraken when it Mega Evo's and has a ton more speed so that it outruns the pokemon meant to counter it. How are you going to manage that? I think so far I've outlined like, idk 15 reasons why their shouldn't be a Mega CAP solely on the submission that HeaLnDeaL outlined and I don't think one of them has been refuted to my satisfaction.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That said I don't disagree as to whether we should have a Mega CAP or not, I just disagree with HeaL's reasons for having on. For me to support having a Mega CAP, I'd need to feel confident that we have a strong CAP leadership in place as well as an reasonably intelligent CAP community, in order for us to not immediately break the Mega CAP (hint...as of now we have neither of those things), as well as an actual proper "reason" to have a Mega CAP in the first place.
As far as Doug's proposal, loath as I am to admit it, he does have a compelling reason that I cannot argue against, and thats the Mega Evolutions are the defining characteristic of the sixth generation. With all that said though...

My current thinking is that CAP should just declare a project (perhaps the next project or the project after that) as "The Mega CAP" -- and we make a new pokemon completely AND give it a mega at the same time. Don't mess with anything in the existing game or past CAPs
I've seen this quote on IRC before, but I don't think I ever responded to Doug directly. The main issue with doing a CAP Mega, is the fact that you would need like, a really godlike TL in order to pull it off. The problem with this is, that there are 0 CAP mods with the required OU experience (which you would definitly need in order to understand Mega pokemon as a whole), and (to prevent people thinking that I'm being falsely modest or whatever), I don't think there is anyone active in CAP period that actually has the required knowledge and judgment to pull it off. Even alexwolf, srk and myself, who might be some of the more active OU players that are also active in CAP, probably don't have "it" enough to try a challenge such as this, you would really need a highly respected OU battler active in CAP, which as we already know, just doesn't really exist anymore.

I don't mind exploring the potential for Mega CAPs, but I doubt very much that we could have an active CAP leader that could pull off a successful Mega CAP process, because to put it bluntly I don't think there is anyone that has what it takes to actually do it successfully.
 
Firstly, you are going to struggle to find many OU Mega's that are actually worse than the base form. To do so implies that the Mega isn't worthy of OU usage since its base form is strictly better. I really don't know how you can start a statement with "OU Pokemon". and then end it with " OU Mega's that are worse than their base forms", because that list is going to be pretty darn small, and I suspect most of the pokemon on that initial list are going to be largely subjective anyway.(Legit the only ones that game to mind are like Mega Lati@s, Garchomp, Zam and maybe Gyarados, and all of them have compelling arguments to argue either side).
T-Tar is another excellent example if you're looking for one. In fact, the only OU pokemon that have Uber Megas are Salamence, Lucario, and Gengar, though we should also count Kanghaskan and Mawile. Salamence, Gengar, and Kanghaskhan are broken thanks to ability alone. Even without a Stat boost, these guys would be broken. Mawile wouldn't even be worth playing with the 100 stat boost if it didn't also get the Fairy type and Play Rough. That means Lucario is the only case where the 100 stat boost has ever jumped an OU Pokemon into Ubers.

Thirdly, each CAP "base form" underwent a process that named itself "Checks and Counters". I guarantee you that people want to go into a Mega CAP with the purpose of making the Mega CAP 200% better than its original base form. Unfortunately, I fail to see how you can tack 100 BST on a pokemon and actually keep said CAP mons checks and counters. How are you going to wall Cawmondore when it puts its extra stat points into HP and, oh I don't know, Special Defence? Are you going to outrun Volkraken when it Mega Evo's and has a ton more speed so that it outruns the pokemon meant to counter it. How are you going to manage that? I think so far I've outlined like, idk 15 reasons why their shouldn't be a Mega CAP solely on the submission that HeaLnDeaL outlined and I don't think one of them has been refuted to my satisfaction.
First of all, neither of those Pokemon would ever be considered for a Mega evolution. That's deranged. I've already outlined the only three CAPs in the game that are awful enough to ever get a Mega Evolution (Voodoom, Pyroak, and Malaconda as a stretch). Secondly, the Mega Evolution would obviously have a different set of Checks and Counters, which we can assign in the Checks and Counters section of the Mega Evolution. Further, most things that countered the CAP in the good old days won't do jack nowadays. Remember, Toxicroak, Infernape, Ninetales, and Volcarona were all listed as perfectly viable OU answers to Malaconda, and that Genesect could also get the job done in OU. Heck, CAPs very first counters discussion featured an argument on whether Dusknoir was a counter to Argonaut. Honestly, this counters argument is a tad moronic and completely ignores the fact that the metagame now is not the same as the metagame 3 years ago. In fact, the willingness of CAP process veterans to completely ignore every change Gen 6 brought to the OU metagame is largely the greatest reasons to have a Mega CAP.

My current thinking is that CAP should just declare a project (perhaps the next project or the project after that) as "The Mega CAP" -- and we make a new pokemon completely AND give it a mega at the same time. Don't mess with anything in the existing game or past CAPs. Process-wise, I have no idea how to control something like that. But that's the only way I can see it possibly working. Every other proposal (megas for existing pokemon or past CAPs) is totally doomed, imo. "Doomed" as in "fan circlejerk", mostly.
The idea of creating a CAP that has a mega is actually pretty interesting, but I'm not sure that would work from a design standpoint, mostly because "The Mega CAP" is incredibly vague as far as concepts go. "The Mega CAP", at least to me, reeks of "A Pokemon that dissuades your opponent from fainting it, or can even leave it's presence on the field felt even after it faints."; it's a concept that looks promising, but doesn't actually mean anything and is too vague to build a CAP around. The fact that we're making the same mistakes we made with Plasmanta this soon after Plasmanta is a tad bothersome to me.
 

jas61292

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Just to touch in again briefly on the whole broken thing, I really think that some people are overestimating the inherent benefits of Mega Evolution. Number Cruncher did a good job showing how the +100 BST increase, which is the only necessary change for a mega, has rarely in and of itself been a problem. However, I think there is more to say than that. Tyranitar, as Number Cruncher brought up, is an excellent example of an OU Pokemon that is just as OU balanced once it mega evolves, despite the fact that many people might look at the base form and find it impossible to mega evolve that thing without breaking it. The fact is, Mega Evolution is not always perfectly optimized, and whether it is or not, it always has significant opportunity cost. More than one person here has singled out Cawmodore as a Pokemon that was arguably broken at its creation, and mentioned how it wouldn't even be considered as a past CAP to get a mega evolution, but I think that in saying this people completely miss how the mechanic even works. Now this is more of just an example than an argument, but lets just take a deeper look at Cawmodore for a moment:

What makes Cawmodore so good is its ability to easily set up Belly Drum and sweep with it. However, if it were to mega evolve, a lot of the tools at its disposal would vanish. Most notably, Mega Evolution requires a Mega Stone. Such a Mega Cawmodore not only could not run a Sitrus Berry (or Flying Gem as it did in gen V, though that has other issues, such as being unavailable), but it also automatically takes away its ability to use Acrobatics. In order for its best main STAB to even match the power of its non mega evolved Acrobatics, it would need 53 of those 100 BST points thrown into Attack. Now obviously as it didn't normally run any boosting item (bar Flying Gem) any attack boost, even one significantly shy of that number, helps its other attacks a lot. Even so, what made Caw so great was its ability to hit so reliably hard after it Belly Drummed. Taking that away, or dedicating most of its stat boosts to that is a very steep cost for a mega evolution. And this is not even getting into the loss of electric immunity that might come with an ability change.

Now, my point here was not to say that a Mega Evolution of Cawmodore would not be broken. My point is to say that, when it comes to mega evoltions, there is often a lot more to them than meets the eye, and when it comes to discussing and creating them, the bulk of the interesting conversation will come due to the opportunity cost inherent to the mechanic. It is this opportunity cost that makes Mega Evolution different than normal evolution, and it is the very reason that we are discussing this possibility at all: Mega Evolutions are more limited, so you can give them more without them going too far.

Moving on to other topics though, I am honestly not sure at this point what I want to do as far as Mega Evolutions. When the topic was first broached at the start of the generation, I was staunchly against doing mega evolutions. As it stands I still am very much against allowing anything mega evolution related being allowed in normal concepts. Mega Evolutions for past CAPs is a way to get arround this issue, but even I don't believe this to necessarily be ideal. While all real mega evolutions were created after their base forms, no real mega evolution was made with the intent of following a CAP style concept. They were not made with the intent of having quality discussions about the opportunity costs of the mega evolution mechanic (well I assume they were not, though I can't actually speak for Game Freak). As such, no matter how we make them they will be different than real mega evolutions, so the excuse of using past CAPs for consistencies sake does not hold up as well as I used to think it did. Honestly, for the most part the only reason I was supporting that idea was because I, like Doug, thought that this was too important of a mechanic to ignore, and I thought that past CAPs might be the best way to do this. Now I am not so sure. Unlike some people, I couldn't care less about how this could be seen as editing old projects, and I certainly have no issue with the whole CAP Meta vs OU debate. Either way would be fine with me. I'm just not sure if this is necessarily the best way to explore the mechanic itself.

After some consideration, I think that Doug's suggestion of declaring a project "The Mega CAP" is probably the best way to go about things. In my opinion, we need to do something with Mega Evolutions, but we don't want to open the door to allowing them for normal concepts, so by separating out a single project and saying "this is where it will happen and no where else" we can do it without worrying about its effect on normal projects. Of course, this ideal still has some problems, most obviously, how to structure a process with a mega evolution involved. It is my belief that the best way to do this would not be to try and make them both at the same time, but to make the mega parts an addendum at the end. While it is true that I no longer think we need to have an established base Pokemon before making a mega, I still think that doing the base mon in its entirety first is the best idea. It is too difficult to try and simultaneously make two things that are both balanced and fit together while having to base individual parts of one off of an incomplete and ever changing version of the other. All that will do is make things even more of a clusterfuck than our worst projects have ever been instead, we should go through a normal non mega CAP project (with concepts tailored to knowing we will have a mega evolution) and then when it is complete, jump right back in with mega typing. Timeline-wise, the competitive side of things would look something like this:

concept -> typing discussion -> ..... -> movepool poll -> mega typing discussion -> mega typing poll -> mega ability discussion -> mega ability poll -> mega stats limits -> mega stats submissions -> mega stats poll -> final product

Now this is by no means the only way it could go, but its an example that I personally could see working as well as we could possibly make it work. Obviously there might be concerns as far as the flavor side of things such as if art would be pushed back so people do both at once or if there are two separate submissions and polls. And even if someone does like this general idea, I could still see some competitive issues such as whether or not to have a mega threats discussion, or deciding whether mega stats should go before or after ability, since unlike with a main CAP, you only will have one mega ability to do. Furthermore, this layout would have it so that movepool is already decided before the mega even starts. This obviously places restrictions on how the mega turns out, but I believe that it is probably for the best, as doing multiple things at once would be a major mess, and, just to look at precident, while some megas gained new moves to fit the new form, most really didn't. Megas are notable as being a change from the base form, not an entirely different mon. If we don't want a move on the base mon, then we shouldn't be having it, even if the mega would like it.

Well, anyways, I don't want to ramble on much longer, so let me just end like this. I fully believe that we, as a project and a community, have the capibility of making a mega evolved Pokemon without any balance issues. I also believe that with the competitive importance of mega evolution in the current metagame, we really need to find some way of doing a mega evolution. And while I do not believe that there is necessarily a fantastic way of doing this (or at least not one that anyone has brought up yet), having a single project designed to make a Pokemon directly followed by a mega evolution for it would probably be the best way to go about this.
 
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