Item Mega Stone bans: AKA "Soul Dew Clause" on steroids

[ginganinja]

From what I understand, if a Mega Pokemon (ie Mega Gengar for instance), was deemed to be broken, the Gengarite item or whatever would simply be banned. Therefore normal gengar could be available for use within the tier its usage is relevent towards, and Mega Gengar would effectively be removed from the tier due to Gengar being unable to enter that form without its item.

 

[Moe2]

Except they actually have to transform in-battle. This is huge.

I do think however, that banning Mega Evolution stones is a simple way to prevent any overpowered Megas from being used.

Ok I see what your saying, but its not just banning from OU to Uber we need to think about. Ampharos is NU without the stone and lets say is OU with the stone, so if you want to use ampharos in a tier below OU you cant hold the stone. But if your in OU stone is fair game for ampharos

 

[Esiog001]

The problem with banning mega stones to higher tiers is that tiers are based off usage. So because say Mega Absol has enough usage in OU, regular Absol won't be able to be used in lower tiers because it's an OU poke. Exeptions to this are mega stones being banned to Ubers which is not based off usage but whether the Item/Pokemon etc. is too powerful for OU, and stones being banned BL tiers in a similar way.

 

[azureleaf17]

That way, if Gyarados was OU but not Mega Gyarados, then Mega Gyarados would be placed in BL by default.

I think, though, that something like this would be nigh impossible to enforce. Because Mega Gyarados STARTS as Gyarados, even if the Mega Evolution is deemed to be of a lower tier, there's no way to really allow it in lower-tier battles unless you make some ridiculous, mechanic-altering rule like you MUST Mega Evolve Gyarados first-turn if you plan to use its Mega Evolution.

 

[Shroomisaur]

I think that the mega stones should be able to be banned, but don't consider the two forms separate Pokemon. The Pokemon always has to enter battle as its regular form. You can't have the mega without the Pokemon, in this case.

Say that Smogon decides to ban Mega Gengar. Gengarite goes to Uber, Gengar should stay OU. If you're using Mega Gengar in ubers you need to use Gengar but that's okay, there's nothing wrong with using a lower-tiered mon.

Another example: say that Gardevoir falls to UU because no one is using it in OU; however Mega Gardevoir is too powerful there. Ban the stone to BL. Gardevoir can still be used in UU, and Mega Gardevoir can be used in OU.

This is how I feel about the issue too and makes sense with how Smogon's handled item bans in the past. Well said!

 

[X5Dragon]

I'm pretty sure the tiering councils won't prevent usage of staple pokemon in lower tiers such as Charizard and Kanga just because thier stones are of higher tiers.

 

[PingPongCop]

I will mention that some Pokemon, if not almost ALL will stay in their same tier, because they will not increase in usage (what tiering is based on). Only a few will rise, such as Mega Kangaskhan, due to it being much better than its original form, which was RU. (Or NU i forget.) The others will be used fairly the same because only one (or two) of their stats will increase by like 20 (which is quite a bit actually), and the ones that are in OU and can Megavolve (yes i just said Megavolve.) do not change in typing, which does not get rid of its weaknesses. Not to mention that I think most Megavolutions are based on increasing Attack, Special Attack, and Speed. Thus leading to Mega Stones not being banned.

EDIT: Don't forget that you can only Megavolve ONE pokemon in your team.

2nd EDIT: Also it takes up an item slot.

3rd EDIT: I think they would only ban the stones, not the pokemon, if it becomes too over powered. But I think we all know that Mega Blaziken will most likely be.

 

[Senzura]

I think its pretty obvious the item will just be tier restricted. These are NOT separate forms, insofar as it is something that occurs in battle. Tiering it as a form is also awkward, because what if, for some reason, I mega comes along that's inferior to the original? Am I now required to megaevolve to avoid breaking tiers if it is tiered lower? How does that work?

Remember that If I use a Lucario-M on my team, I am not actually useing Lucario-M, I am useing a Lucario that CAN become Lucario-M. They are NOT seperate.

 

[PyroSpark]

Pretty sure Smogon was going to do this as it is, because in all reality Kangaskhan is RU material, (It should've never been NU IMO) and Mega Kangaskhan is OU Material.

Same thing goes for most others.

I would be okay with this. Even if it does make things more confusing in the end, I feel the balance would be worth it.


But my opinion isn't worth much in this situation, lol.

 

[Moe2]

I will mention that some Pokemon, if not almost ALL will stay in their same tier, because they will not increase in usage (what tiering is based on). Only a few will rise, such as Mega Kangaskhan, due to it being much better than its original form, which was RU. (Or NU i forget.) The others will be used fairly the same because only one (or two) of their stats will increase by like 20 (which is quite a bit actually), and the ones that are in OU and can Megavolve (yes i just said Megavolve.) do not change in typing, which does not get rid of its weaknesses. Not to mention that I think most Megavolutions are based on increasing Attack, Special Attack, and Speed. Thus leading to Mega Stones not being banned.

EDIT: Don't forget that you can only Megavolve ONE pokemon in your team.

2nd EDIT: Also it takes up an item slot.

if there was a rare case where the Mega was a lower tier than the original, the Mega would have to reside in same tier as the original.

 

[Schpoonman]

"Soul Dew Clause" just about sums it up in my book. Gengar is solidly OU while Mega Gengar could be a top threat in Ubers. The problem isn't Gengar himself, it's the Mega Stone that allows him to evolve.

We banned Soul Dew and kept Latios and Latias because they themselves were manageable. When given a permanent, irrevocable Calm Mind boost via a totally separate and independent item, they were broken, so it was a simple matter to ban the item. No complex ban required. I feel like we're going to see a lot of Mega Stones sitting in BL and Ubers ban lists, but there's no reason to bar Absol from participating in RU and UU when you are not obligated by any means to run his Mega Stone.

 

[PingPongCop]

if there was a rare case where the Mega was a lower tier than the original, the Mega would have to reside in same tier as the original.

I cannot possibly think of a case where a Megavolution would be in a lower tier than its normal form. (Besides Mega Pinsir, which wasn't useful to begin with.)

 

[GRs Cousin]

I think Mega Pokemon should be considered one and the same with their base forms. The main case with this is how some Mega Pokemon actually benefit from their regular forms beforehand. Mawile and Gyarados both come to mind, as their base forms have Intimidate, which benefits the Mega form as well and thus acts as outside assistance. If Mega Gyarados was UU, but Gyarados is still OU, then you are essentially allowing small OU assistance for a UU by allowing said OU Pokemon to briefly appear in the tier. Considering how some Pokemon are in their current tier placement thanks to their ability as it is, we'd be allowing "banned guests" into the tier if we made Pokemon allowed based on their Mega forms alone. Additionally, implementing a clause such as whether one has to Mega Evolve the Pokemon first thing or if they can switch before Mega Evolving (and thus holding that non-Mega in their team) makes the details all that more complicated.

I myself am with the mindset of wanting to use Blaze Blaziken in lower tiers, but again, competitive tiering is based on the most optimal movesets of a given Pokemon, not the viability of any one moveset. All Blaziken are banned even if they're not utilizing the godsend ability Speed Boost. All Mega Pokemon should be banned even if its base form has the best moveset. It really (and sadly) is that simple.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

This seems obvious to me, I'm surprised at some of the suggestions really. MegaVenusaur is Venusaur with a hold item, so of course its usage will be combined with Venusaur's (not to mention, a Venusaur with Venusaurite might not always choose to MegaEvolve). If a Mega form of a Pokemon is broken, then the hold item will be banned. They're the same Pokemon, they can't be in two different tiers.

Rotom and Deoxys can't change forms mid-battle, so it's fine for them to be counted differently imo. I agree that some of the MegaEvolutions are like completely different Pokemon, but the different forms of Castform and Aegislash and so on are also like completely different Pokemon, but we're not tiering them separately, since they can switch between forms during the battle. It would be so complicated to try and seperate them.

 

[azureAngelic]

I'm obviously not a veteran or whatever to the process, but it seems obvious to me that the best way to handle megas in tiering is to simply tier the base Pokemon appropriately, then see if the mega stone is too powerful for that tier, and if so, bump it up.

Completely ignoring Scizorite, Scizor ends up in OU. If Scizorite isn't overcentralizing or gamebreaking, don't do anything to it.
Completely ignoring Kangaskhanite, Kangaskhan ends up in RU. If Kangaskhanite is too good for RU, ban it from RU and below. If it's still too good for UU, ban it from UU and below. Repeat until Kangaskhanite is properly tiered, lets say BL; Kangaskhan can be used in RU and up, but Kangaskhanite can only be used in BL and up.
Completely ignoring Ampharosite, Ampharos ends up in UU. Ampharosite is barely used at all in UU, but Ampharos himself is banned from RU and NU, so Ampharosite is also UU by virtue or requiring Ampharos to be used.

Basically, it comes down to two simple rules. One, if the mega stone causes the Pokemon to overpower its tier, ban the Mega Stone to the appropriate tier. Two, mega stones can't be tiered lower than their base Pokemon, no matter how bad the mega form is, because you can't have Mega Charizard in NU without Charizard himself in NU. If we can ban Soul Dew to Ubers without any problems, banning mega stones should go by the same rules.

 

[PingPongCop]

This seems obvious to me, I'm surprised at some of the suggestions really. MegaVenusaur is Venusaur with a hold item, so of course its usage will be combined with Venusaur's (not to mention, a Venusaur with Venusaurite might not always choose to MegaEvolve). If a Mega form of a Pokemon is broken, then the hold item will be banned. They're the same Pokemon, they can't be in two different tiers.

Rotom and Deoxys can't change forms mid-battle, so it's fine for them to be counted differently imo. I agree that some of the MegaEvolutions are like completely different Pokemon, but the different forms of Castform and Aegislash and so on are also like completely different Pokemon, but we're not tiering them separately, since they can switch between forms during the battle. It would be so complicated to try and seperate them.

Who says they can't? They're not the same pokemon, as some gain a new typing while others gain a major stat increase. You can't possibly tell me that Mega Kangaskhan and its normal form are equally useful.

 

[Non-Guest 31415]

I'm far from experienced, but here's my point of view. If a Mega changes a Pokemon such that its tier should change, the Mega Stone should be placed in the tier the Mega Pokemon would be tiered in and the Pokemon should be placed in the tier it would be tiered in without the Mega. If Absol is RU-worthy and Mega Absol is OU-worthy, then you can use Absol in all tiers RU or above and Absolite in all tiers OU or above; putting it on Absol is a logical choice, but I'm PRETTY sure the Gen V OU Soul Dew ban bans Soul Dew on non-Eon Pokemon, which is the closest precedent Smogon has, so we can't allow Absolite on random Pokemon in tiers below OU in this scenario, just to avoid random Trick chains and stuff. If, say, Pinsir is RU-worthy and Mega Pinsir is NU-worthy, then we would put Pinsir in RU and Pinsirite in NU; you can USE Pinsirite in NU, just not Pinsir, so it's hardly of use. But there's no way of using Pinsir in NU that FORCES you to use Mega Pinsir and not normal Pinsir, so it has to be done.

If people disagree with me, they're probably more right than I am. It's just that the differences between, for instance, Mewtwo and Mega Mewtwo X, or Charizard and Mega Charizard X, or ANY Pokemon whose role-switch is significant between normal and Mega Evo, seems so dramatic that it would be odd to tier them as one Pokemon. We've done it for Soul Dew, we've done it for Rotom, Shaymin, Deoxys, and Kyurem; why can't we do it for Mega Stones and Mega Evolutions?

 

[Aldrius]

Honestly. Saying that a mega will end up in a lower tier than it's base pokemon makes no sense.

It's like saying Prankster Sableye with Life Orb doesn't see much use in UU so it needs to be bumped down to RU, that wouldn't happen. For example, if Absolite makes Absol useful enough to be an OU pokemon then it should be an OU pokemon. Just because it's not good enough without absolite doesn't change that.

 

[CTypo]

Soul Dew clause would work. If Scizorite makes Scizor too powerful for OU, then we ban Scizorite to Ubers.

Of course, god forbid that these items had been a catch-all "Mega Stone" that all Pokemon with mega evolutions could hold. Cause it would totally be a complex ban if we had to ban Mega Stone from Scizor in OU. But since it's Scizorite from Scizor in OU, that's not complex.

 

[Schpoonman]

Honestly. Saying that a mega will end up in a lower tier than it's base pokemon makes no sense.

It's like saying Prankster Sableye with Life Orb doesn't see much use in UU so it needs to be bumped down to RU, that wouldn't happen. For example, if Absolite makes Absol useful enough to be an OU pokemon then it should be an OU pokemon. Just because it's not good enough without absolite doesn't change that.

I think it totally changes that. Mega Absol is an entirely different creature than Absol and should be treated as such.

EDIT: Agreed with what CTypo says. If it were just "Mega Stone" we'd see a TON of bans of otherwise harmless (for a given definition of harmless) Pokemon for the sake of avoiding a complex ban.

 

[PyroSpark]

The problem with banning mega stones to higher tiers is that tiers are based off usage. So because say Mega Absol has enough usage in OU, regular Absol won't be able to be used in lower tiers because it's an OU poke. Exeptions to this are mega stones being banned to Ubers which is not based off usage but whether the Item/Pokemon etc. is too powerful for OU, and stones being banned BL tiers in a similar way.

Shit. I didn't even think about this.

 

[Chou Toshio]

From what I understand, if a Mega Pokemon (ie Mega Gengar for instance), was deemed to be broken, the Gengarite item or whatever would simply be banned. Therefore normal gengar could be available for use within the tier its usage is relevent towards, and Mega Gengar would effectively be removed from the tier due to Gengar being unable to enter that form without its item.

^This. And ginga's not the first or last person to simply state the obvious, common sense solution and leave it at that. I don't think there's anything more to discuss here. If the Tiering Leaders want to handle it differently, they will-- but this thread is just going in circles (and how it manages to do that in just 2 pages is beyond me).