Pet Mod Megamax (Quick Update @ Post #432)

[Hematite]

Mega Stat Changes: 70 / 130 / 65 (-5) / 145 (+16) / 65 (-5) / 130 (+43)

Can I ask where you got these stats for your Toxtricity?
Your stat changes suggest that you were comparing it to something with a spread of 70/130/70/129/70/87, but that's neither base Toxtricity nor Mega Toxtricity (nor any official Pokémon, for that matter - 556 is an unused base stat total), and the changes themselves don't add up to 100.
Base Toxtricity is 75/98/70/114/70/75, and Mega Toxtricity is 75/111/100/129/100/87. It seems you've gotten your Defense and Special Defense from Toxtricity and your Special Attack and Speed from Mega Toxtricity, while your HP and Attack don't match either one (remember that HP isn't allowed to change for a Mega Evolution!).
Your base stat total is also off - not by a great margin (it's only three points higher than it should be), but with how little sense this spread already seems to make, it does support that you may have confused a few things when you were making this.
You might want to look this over and double-check that you've put the stats you meant!

(Your Gengar spread makes more sense, but your stat changes aren't quite accurate - you've noted its Special Defense buff as +15, while it's actually +20. This one seems to have the right total, though! You just mislabeled it.
For reference, the stat changes listed for this Mega Gengar spread are by comparison to our existing Mega Gengar X, not to base Gengar.)

 

[Rotten]

Can I ask where you got these stats for your Toxtricity?
Your stat changes suggest that you were comparing it to something with a spread of 70/130/70/129/70/87, but that's neither base Toxtricity nor Mega Toxtricity (nor any official Pokémon, for that matter - 556 is an unused base stat total), and the changes themselves don't add up to 100.
Base Toxtricity is 75/98/70/114/70/75, and Mega Toxtricity is 75/111/100/129/100/87. It seems you've gotten your Defense and Special Defense from Toxtricity and your Special Attack and Speed from Mega Toxtricity, while your HP and Attack don't match either one (remember that HP isn't allowed to change for a Mega Evolution!).
Your base stat total is also off - not by a great margin (it's only three points higher than it should be), but with how little sense this spread already seems to make, it does support that you may have confused a few things when you were making this.
You might want to look this over and double-check that you've put the stats you meant!

(Your Gengar spread makes more sense, but your stat changes aren't quite accurate - you've noted its Special Defense buff as +15, while it's actually +20. This one seems to have the right total, though! You just mislabeled it.
For reference, the stat changes listed for this Mega Gengar spread are by comparison to our existing Mega Gengar X, not to base Gengar.)

Hey, the HP on Toxtricity was just a mistake - I thought it was 70 for some reason lol

Anyways, thanks for pointing out these errors! I was trying to make Toxtricity base 130 attack, but I didn't put it as a change. I ended up changing the Attack stat to 122, so the BST would be correct. I was also tweaking with Mega Gengar X's stats a bit which is probably which is why I put +15 instead of +20. I added the BST totals in my post so you can see more easily.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Request: Even if my sub isn't chosen, Contaminate is still renamed to Acid Rock. The name is so perfect that I'm genuinely surprised Game Freak didn't use it. It's literally a Poison-type rock star whose brain is all jacked up from drugs its own poison.

 

[Yung Dramps]

So Magearna and Cinderace both got banned in OU. While the latter won't meet the same fate due to it being more balanced in this format than in standard, Mag is a different story due to how overwhelmingly it was voted to go should OU choose for it to be banned on the recent Megamax threats poll. Kris Is there a way to ban Magearna on ladder but have some kind of special format where it's still legal for this week of Megamax Open? If not just go ahead and remove it, the Open players will manage

EDIT: forgot to mention

-Aura Sphere?

With Mag (aka one of its only defensive checks) gone this might have to be done. Should it be done? What do you think chums?

EDIT 2: G-Luke showed us a way to keep Magearna legal for the remainder of the current Open round over on its thread! Alright then Kris, you can go ahead and nuke the rabbit robot from the ladder

 

[earl]

I support axing aura sphere on POWER TOWER. Without mage it makes pink blobs the only true counters, at least without sphere it loses to Ferro/bulky Driller (without chad water pulse ofc) too. Means I can offensively rock without guilt too.

As for cinderace, I believe it should be banned for the time being because there honestly isn’t that much different here that keeps it balanced (sandaconda sort of, uhhh dred’s aqua jet, I still think boots cinder can be an absolutely oppressive force in the long term), and I think keeping the OU banlist for the time being is the play. Don’t think we’re different enough to warrant a different banlist, even if I despise Urshifu.

 

[zedhatool]

I don't believe that Magearna should be banned from this tier. I also don't believe Cinderace should be banned from the tier. I think that both of these mons are balanced in this tier, although they're both good. They both have additional counters in this tier that do not exist in other tiers. For example, both broken fire megas counter specs Magearna, and setup Mage is like... okay? I guess, but not nearly as difficult to deal with. Cinderace is countered by Coalossal + Pex (because it doesn't use HJK + Zen), all variants lose to Sandaconda, etc. Especially with the future introduction of new megas, I believe that we should have some tiering system of our own for these decisions going forward, whether that is a council or suspect tests.

 

[G-Luke]

I don't believe that Magearna should be banned from this tier. I also don't believe Cinderace should be banned from the tier. I think that both of these mons are balanced in this tier, although they're both good. They both have additional counters in this tier that do not exist in other tiers. For example, both broken fire megas counter specs Magearna, and setup Mage is like... okay? I guess, but not nearly as difficult to deal with. Cinderace is countered by Coalossal + Pex (because it doesn't use HJK + Zen), all variants lose to Sandaconda, etc. Especially with the future introduction of new megas, I believe that we should have some tiering system of our own for these decisions going forward, whether that is a council or suspect tests.

What is stopping Cinderace from using HJK + Zen Headbutt? What?????

I think that Magearna deserves a suspect of our own, but as for right now, Cinderace is as nutty in Megamax as it is in standard (its only defensive addition is Mega Sandaconda, which is an ok mega, but nothing defining, and it getting a few offensive checks aint worth squat diddley.

 

[zedhatool]

What is stopping Cinderace from using HJK + Zen Headbutt? What?????

I think that Magearna deserves a suspect of our own, but as for right now, Cinderace is as nutty in Megamax as it is in standard (its only defensive addition is Mega Sandaconda, which is an ok mega, but nothing defining, and it getting a few offensive checks aint worth squat diddley.

Cinderace doesn't run HJK + Zen because that's an awful set. Cinderace needs Pyro Ball because it's the best move it has. Then you need U-Turn so it can generate momentum. According to the WCoP usage stats, the vast majority of all Cinderace had both these moves (unless it's bulk up which is just bad). Then, you need to pick coverage. Zen is basically necessary to not lose to Pex; Gunk Shot is Cinderace's only way of not being walled by Clefable; Sucker Punch helps with being revenge killed and ghosts like Dragapult that can otherwise KO or status Cinderace, and it can beat Slowbro; Electro Ball does something I think; and then High Jump Kick hits Crawdaunt and Hydreigon. HJK was actually the least used move in WCoP on Cinderace. So if you pick Zen + HJK, you give up on Gunk Shot and are walled by Clefable, you lose to Dragapult and Slowbro, and Hippo walls you even harder because you can't status it with Gunk. HJK isn't great on Cinderace in general, because it's a ghost-infested meta and HJK doesn't really hit anything that its other moves don't. So HJK is quite uncommon and HJK + Zen should never be used.

To your point about its checks, again, defensively it is checked by Coalossal + Pex, Charizard-Mega, and Mega Sandaconda. Being able to offensively pressure a mon actually is a big deal. For example, what are the defensive checks to Toxapex? Maybe TWave + Knock Clef? Saying that offensive checks don't mean anything is kind of a bizarre statement when offense is half the metagame. If we don't take into account offensive checks, Amoonguss should be banned to Ubers. The offensive checks it has gained in Urshifu-RS-Mega, Blastoise-Mega, and to an extent Drednaw-Mega actually do make it less broken in the tier, especially when you consider that almost all its checks both offensively and defensively are top-tier, the only one not in A rank or above is Charizard-Mega. I won't deny that Cinderace is good in this tier, because it is. But saying that it's just as crazy in this tier as in OU is patently incorrect.

 

[earl]

I don't believe that Magearna should be banned from this tier. I also don't believe Cinderace should be banned from the tier. I think that both of these mons are balanced in this tier, although they're both good. They both have additional counters in this tier that do not exist in other tiers. For example, both broken fire megas counter specs Magearna, and setup Mage is like... okay? I guess, but not nearly as difficult to deal with. Cinderace is countered by Coalossal + Pex (because it doesn't use HJK + Zen), all variants lose to Sandaconda, etc. Especially with the future introduction of new megas, I believe that we should have some tiering system of our own for these decisions going forward, whether that is a council or suspect tests.

I disagree with the notion that any mega truly handles specs mage, both get volted on and Coal is an absolute chip magnet which makes me hesitant to consider it a counter to anything that isn’t a bulky water, really. Centiskorch is better in that regard but still gambles against offensive teams coming into a mage volt, seeing as most faster mons can force it out. Mage does lose the ability to trick for free though, so I can understand the idea of it being more balanced by virtue of that fact alone.

As for cinderace, your first example is reliant on cinder not running HJK+Zen (which is true in standard OU), but there very much is merit for running those two moves in tandem over gunk when Pex+Coal is so common and Drednaw also exists. Sandaconda counters yeah but sandaconda counters like 80% the tier so

Basically I fail to see any positives these two mons bring to the meta that outweighs the downside of divorcing the meta from the OU banlist outside of keeping mega Duraludon in check, who can be nerfed anyways. If we were to keep any I would prefer Magearna, at least mage does more than further boost voltturn

Cinderace doesn't run HJK + Zen because that's an awful set. Cinderace needs Pyro Ball because it's the best move it has. Then you need U-Turn so it can generate momentum. According to the WCoP usage stats, the vast majority of all Cinderace had both these moves (unless it's bulk up which is just bad). Then, you need to pick coverage. Zen is basically necessary to not lose to Pex; Gunk Shot is Cinderace's only way of not being walled by Clefable; Sucker Punch helps with being revenge killed and ghosts like Dragapult that can otherwise KO or status Cinderace, and it can beat Slowbro; Electro Ball does something I think; and then High Jump Kick hits Crawdaunt and Hydreigon. HJK was actually the least used move in WCoP on Cinderace. So if you pick Zen + HJK, you give up on Gunk Shot and are walled by Clefable, you lose to Dragapult and Slowbro, and Hippo walls you even harder because you can't status it with Gunk. HJK isn't great on Cinderace in general, because it's a ghost-infested meta and HJK doesn't really hit anything that its other moves don't. So HJK is quite uncommon and HJK + Zen should never be used.

To your point about its checks, again, defensively it is checked by Coalossal + Pex, Charizard-Mega, and Mega Sandaconda. Being able to offensively pressure a mon actually is a big deal. For example, what are the defensive checks to Toxapex? Maybe TWave + Knock Clef? Saying that offensive checks don't mean anything is kind of a bizarre statement when offense is half the metagame. If we don't take into account offensive checks, Amoonguss should be banned to Ubers. The offensive checks it has gained in Urshifu-RS-Mega, Blastoise-Mega, and to an extent Drednaw-Mega actually do make it less broken in the tier, especially when you consider that almost all its checks both offensively and defensively are top-tier, the only one not in A rank or above is Charizard-Mega. I won't deny that Cinderace is good in this tier, because it is. But saying that it's just as crazy in this tier as in OU is patently incorrect.

Wrote the other response earlier but you do understand the issue in citing WCoP usage stats while simultaneously claiming that this meta is different enough to keep cinder in check but somehow not different enough to make Zen+HJK viable (which it very much is, the amount of PexCoal you will see vastly outweighs the amount of physdef clef you'll see, especially due to the fact that Coal itself turns clef into a liability in the midgame). HJK is also your best tool against Drednaw and Duraludon, and generally has a much better matchup spread in megamax compared to standard OU. Giving up gunk is fine when the best clef abuser is so common.

Anyways I think banning the two for the time being just to keep this in line with gen 8 OU (hell Dracovish is probably ass in a coal meta, lets unban that lol) is the play rather than divorcing.

 

[Ehmcee]

I'd just like to say, F's for Mega Cinder.

 

[zedhatool]

Specs Mage broken

Losing trick and gaining some defensive (as well as offensive) answers is a big enough deal that I think that there should be some independent tiering action in the future on Mage. Hopefully that would be some kind of suspect test.

Cinderace can run HJK + Zen in this meta

Point taken about HJK + Zen. Even so, I still believe that there is enough offensive and defensive counterplay in the meta to warrant Cinderace not being banned, or at least waiting for its own test. I stand by the fact that it is not nearly as bad in this tier as it is in OU.

Stay with OU for the time being

For the time being, using OU's banlist might be fine, but I strongly believe Megamax has its own identity as a tier distinct from OU. Nerfing Duraludon until there is a decision on what exactly to do is a good idea.

 

[thechurchofcage]

Forgive me, when does the retooling slate end?

 

[Yung Dramps]

Forgive me, when does the retooling slate end?

no definitive date but i'd say next 2-3 days

but yeah, mage is staying banned. i'm still open to opinions on what to do with ace tho

 

[earl]

no definitive date but i'd say next 2-3 days

but yeah, mage is staying banned. i'm still open to opinions on what to do with ace tho

I feel like if you’re banning Mage also ban Ace, Mage has more of a positive presence and is directly weaker compared to Ace in this meta.

 

[Ehmcee]

With the way we're currently heading, Cinderace is probably going to be banned from megamax, being the 3rd mega pokemon added to megamax ubers.

I believe this means that it's time to flesh out the ubers megamax meta, either in a different thread or in this one.

We'd definitely have to update mega corviknight and mega cinderace, and test how powerful Mega-Urshifu-S is in the ubers meta.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Voting starts now!

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

Isn’t M-Ace UP compared to the base form?

 

[zedhatool]

Toxtricity: Hematite, earl, G-Luke
Gengar-X: G-Luke, zedhatool, RottenInfernape
Orbeetle: earl, Mega Flareon, G-Luke

Also to answer the post above, yes, Mega Cinderace is considerably weaker than base Ace (for reference, base Cinderace has an effective attack stat over 200 when using coverage moves), this is a problem that has been documented. Given that Cinderace has been banned from OU, it seems to me unlikely that we will be able to create a mega Cinderace that is both better than base Ace and not absurdly broken. Personally, I don't think Cinderace is as terrifying here as it is in OU, but regardless a better version of Cinderace would be broken even in this meta.

 

[Hematite]

Mega Gengar X: G-Luke, zedhatool, RottenInfernape
Mega Orbeetle: earl, DrPumpkinz, G-Luke
Mega Toxtricity: G-Luke, Hematite, DrPumpkinz

 

[earl]

Mega Gengar: zedhatool, G-Luke, MegaFlareon
Mega Orbeetle: MegaFlareon, earl, G-Luke
Mega Toxtricity: Hematite, G-Luke, earl

Also a few thoughts on the VR:
RISES:

A to S
The best mega right now. It has an incredible typing, naturally checks like half the meta, never dies, and is an incredible rocker. Dual 100 BP STABs, one of which paralyzes everything, makes it a nightmare to switch into if there isn't a hippo. Fits on virtually any team composition that isn't hyper offense (this thing is a menace on stall) and just generally always generates extreme utility throughout the course of a match. The strongest offensive waters are also weak to one of its STABs, so it doesn't even have common offensive counterplay that can come in on it. This shit unboosted haxes through physdef clef and its not even a wallbreaker ffs

A- to A
The addition of Flip Turn alongside natural access to EQ for Coal means it can at least pivot around every traditional water stop (sans shit like gastrodon/toad) while Aqua Jet is incredibly strong priority for various fastmons (especially Volcarona). Suffers from all of the helmet pivots, but at least it only loses 1/6th of its HP compared to 1/2 like Ursh so it could be worse. Consistent offensive mon overall.

(Flapple) B+ to A-
It suffers a bit thanks to its garbage bulk but the departure of Cinderace was a great indirect buff and it resists the best priority in the tier (Drednaw's Aqua Jet). Very few safe switchins, and that ones that are (like pex) will eventually be broken by defense drops. If paired with other pivots it's demonic to face.

B+ to A-
Phydef Helmet tang hard stops Drednaw and punishes the U-Turn spam going around, has Knock for post-sleep utility, and can even catch greedy Coals with EQ/Focus Blast on the switch. More raw bulk to sleep Sandaconda is also good. Regen grasses in general are great and tang has enough positives over Amoong to be on the same tier imo.

B to A-
Fills the gaping hole left by Magearna to be the offensive Duraludon check we all love. Specs also appreciates Urshifu forcing Mandibuzz to go physdef and CC still nukes pink blobs.

C to B-
This thing is flames and has a banger matchup against TR if you want to be CTing bitch. Poisons the Coal every time

DROPS:

S to A+
Still a godtier mon but not the best mega nor is it on par with the other S tiers in terms of splashability. Its main flaw is that the waters it abuses on paper all have some way to get around Desolate Land while Coal at best can just spam spikes. Pex poisons it, slowbro sets up future sight or teleports out, drednaw clicks EQ, etc. Not to mention Coal's extreme hazard weakness means it either demands great hazard control or only comes in 2-3 times a game. Overall still a menace but I don't see it being an S-Tier wallbreaker (easy to wall for most teams) nor an amazing utility option even if it is a consistent spiker.

A+ to A
Its poor offense matchup is enough to keep it from being on par with stuff like Duraludon, Coal, etc. Feels more on par with Drednaw. Hates Sandaconda.

A+ drop to A-/B+
This thing isn't really that great imo. Rocky Helmet pex is the pex set, and this thing still loses against that long term. The other bulky water of choice, Slowbro, also beats it for obvious reasons. Its a fine offensive pivot but as a stallbreaker I can't see it being the best option and I honestly just don't see it enough to warrant the A+ ranking. Once Rocky Helmet goes out of fashion maybe waterbear can come back.

(Appletun) A to A-/B+
This mon is still pretty great, but it suffers from the severe competition for the megaslot- This mon is really, really easily replaced by Amoong/Tang, whereas stuff like Sandaconda/Coalossal occupy an entirely unique niche. The Dragon typing isn't doing it a whole lot of favors either, with a neutrality to Fire being pretty useless when Fire attacks are either Coalossal's Flare Blitz or coverage from mons that now/already hit you supereffectively with their STABs (Dragapult, Volcarona, Hydreigon) and the other resistances being redundant with grass. Still has the edge over the other regen grasses thanks to offensive pressure it exerts, but I just don't think its good enough to justify losing your mega slot for it. Should be A- with the other regen grasses at best, B+ for the opportunity cost imo.

A to B+
This thing hates the prominence of Coal/Drednaw. Only top tier mega it even scares out is Duraludon. 2 new hard counters means the moth is worse off.

B+ to B/B-
Never used this myself but I've played against it and I've never had trouble. It's slow as all hell and its bulk is still subpar. Defensive typing isn't particularly relevant outside of Urshifu, who can still 2HKO with Blow if adamant and Butterfree is just max HP (can't imagine going physdef lol). And if rocks are up, lol. Needing 2 QDs to actually outspeed everything also sounds not great. Not even good in the stall matchup because of chansey+ditto. I'm sure it has its moments but it doesn't look on par with stuff like Chansey/Kyurem. I retract my statement sleep+QD is some high-key stupid shit

B+ to lower
Sounds like a cool Coalossal check until it gets burned on the switch. Also this is Rillaboom meta and Sandaconda is kind of really good. Idk where to drop it because I've never seen nor used it but I fail to see its merit.

B- to Shadow Realm
This thing is ass lol. Coalossal/Drednaw is there if you want a mega that spams a nuclear physical attack and they both have leagues more defensive and offensive utility. The biggest thorn in this guy's side though is definitely Urshifu, though. Banded Wicked Blow hits harder than False Surrender, and Play Rough hits nearly as hard at the cost of, well, hurricane accuracy. No clue why this thing would ever be worth the risk, if you land all your hits you get a slow, weaker Urshifu that kind of beats clef better. If you miss your hits, lol

C to Shadow Realm
Originally nommed this to C on the voting sheet because I thought it was part Steel fsr. If it was part Steel, it would have been a fire Magearna counter that could mess around with a lot of passive mons. As a pure poison, however, I fail to see what this brings to the table. At least NGas Weezing also counters Urshifu, this thing gets gutted by Wicked Blow. Sets spikes but so does Coal.

 

[MegaFlareon]

Mega Gengar X: G-Luke, zedhatool, MegaFlareon
Mega Orbeetle: M24 earl, MegaFlareon, DrPumpkinz
Mega Toxtricity: Hematite, RottenInfernape, DrPumpkinz

 

[Tapler]

Gengar: G-Luke, MegaFlareon, zedhatool
Orbeetle: Earl, DrPumpkinz, MegaFlareon
Toxtricity: Hematite, Earl, G-Luke

Also, sample teams probably need some updating considering 4/6 involve either Mag or Ace.

 

[Yung Dramps]

voting ends tomorrow

 

[Yung Dramps]

Haha yeah "tomorrow" good one dramps

Pokemon: Gengar-GMax
Mega Stat Changes: -5 Def, +5 Spe
Ability: N/A
New Movepool Additions: +Quick Attack, +Agility, +Close Combat, +Fake Out, +Bulk Up, +Earthquake
Description: I like the concept of a Psychic type physical ate abuser. That being said, Gengar has practically no tools to use as a physical attacker. I decided to give Mega Gengar some well needed potential coverage options in Close Combat and Earthquake. I also gave it priority options to abuse and give it a niche as a revenge killer. Agility and Bulk Up were tossed in for good measure. I'm not trying to make these guys into top tier threats, but making them into at least viable picks shouldn't be too hard. I finally give it a slight bump in speed so it can have a fun speed tier that stands out.

Pokemon: Orbeetle-GMax
Mega Stat Changes: 60 / 45 / 150 / 130 / 120 / 100
Ability: Psychic Surge
New Movepool Additions: Dazzling Gleam, -Nasty Plot
Justification: If this thing is gonna work, its gonna need something broken. Luckily, Psychic Surge+Expanding Force is absolutely that. 100 speed is a great speed tier for a mega and overwriting grassy terrain is a pretty decent bonus. Can come in on a few common defensive mons like Pex but otherwise struggles to come in and necessitates hazard control. Still stonewalled by steels.

Pokémon Name:

Mega Toxtricity

Mega Stat Changes: 75 HP / 106 Attack (-5) / 100 Defense / 129 Special Attack / 100 Special Defense / 92 Speed (+5)
Ability: Contaminate
New Movepool Additions: Burning Jealousy, Nasty Plot

votes

Gengar X
G-Luke 14
Zedhatool 10
MegaFlareon 4
RottenInfernape 2

Orbeetle
earl 14
Mega Flareon 8
DrPumpkinz 5
G-Luke 3

Toxtricity
Hematite 14
G-Luke 7
earl 5
RottenInfernape 2
DrPumpkinz 2

Kris Do ur thing pls

 

[Cleverkidd08]

not the time for subs, man, subs already ended.

Oh, I didn't know. Sorry!