Serious [Meme]Change my mind: My brother did

[TheValkyries]

While this is true for firearms in the US as well, it's not clear if that's only the case because of suicides (the vast majority of firearm deaths in the USA are suicides).

Guns account for 50 percent of all suicides on average, and there's only 45k suicides to the 75k gun related deaths. Quick maths says it's not even a "vast" majority for suicides let alone a third of total gun deaths.

Now, I am not anti-gun, I think there is definitely very good and significant reasons to carry nowadays. But I will say I am super against the sheer amount of BAD reasons to use a gun. Don't exist in hypotheticals where every person walks around with a raw intent to kill. The intent to kill is extremely rare and frankly the people you're going to encounter most often who do have it are cops, so that's up to you if you want to pull on a cop to defend yourself. To imagine home invaders who want to do harm or "bad guys" is fictional and BLATANTLY unrealistic. "Stopping threats" is so demonstrably rare that to think of gun use in those terms is entirely wrong.

Basically, if you're going to have a gun, ground yourself in the reality. Note when specifically you will be much more likely to need to defend yourself from violence and then decide if in those situations having a gun would be something you're okay with (read: shooting a cop).

 

[Surgo]

Guns account for 50 percent of all suicides on average, and there's only 45k suicides to the 75k gun related deaths. Quick maths says it's not even a "vast" majority for suicides let alone a third of total gun deaths.

Where are you getting this 75k number? As far as I can find, there were in 2016 38k gun-related deaths (CDC) and 45k suicides in the USA. By the half number, that would be 22.5k suicides which is comfortably within the majority (though "vast" would indeed be questionable). The AMA even notes in a study that while 2/3rds of all global gun deaths are homicides, in the USA more than half of all gun deaths are suicides.

I used 2016 because I can't find suicide numbers newer than that year.

 

[TheValkyries]

No you’re right I misread, it’s north of 40k gun deaths with 73k gun related non fatal injuries. Given the general efficacy of guns in suicide attempts I’d still say that suicides account for most of the gun violence in America. It’s worth noting for sure but not something that can be used to handwave concerns away.

 

[Ninahaza]

I just wanted to take the time and thank everybody who has responded to this thread. I have learned a lot and i am still learning.

I failed miserably at my first gun range experience. My bro's friends laughed at me, but thats enough of that embarrassment

 

[Ohmachi]

Guns account for 50 percent of all suicides on average, and there's only 45k suicides to the 75k gun related deaths. Quick maths says it's not even a "vast" majority for suicides let alone a third of total gun deaths.

Now, I am not anti-gun, I think there is definitely very good and significant reasons to carry nowadays. But I will say I am super against the sheer amount of BAD reasons to use a gun. Don't exist in hypotheticals where every person walks around with a raw intent to kill. The intent to kill is extremely rare and frankly the people you're going to encounter most often who do have it are cops, so that's up to you if you want to pull on a cop to defend yourself. To imagine home invaders who want to do harm or "bad guys" is fictional and BLATANTLY unrealistic. "Stopping threats" is so demonstrably rare that to think of gun use in those terms is entirely wrong.

Basically, if you're going to have a gun, ground yourself in the reality. Note when specifically you will be much more likely to need to defend yourself from violence and then decide if in those situations having a gun would be something you're okay with (read: shooting a cop).

The problem is that its so easy to get a gun that if you want to kill your self using a firearm literally no one can save you. To many people are negligent when it comes to owning a tool designed to kill things. To many people find out they had no business owning a gun too late. Its harder to get a dog in this country then it is to get a gun.

 

[Sickist]

the gun doesn't get rabies and infections that can possibly spread to people.

 

[Surgo]

I failed miserably at my first gun range experience. My bro's friends laughed at me, but thats enough of that embarrassment

What all happened?

Your bro's friends sound like dicks honestly. It's so important to go to a good range with good range safety officers who can teach you how to do things well.

 

[earl]

the gun doesn't get rabies and infections that can possibly spread to people.

and the dog isn't a ranged killing implement that can possibly shoot people if the user is poorly trained. Both have their associated risks and I don't think poorly trained gun ownership is any better/worse than the chance that a dog has rabies. Rabies is usually more easily treated than a bullet wound, though.

 

[Ninahaza]

What all happened?

Your bro's friends sound like dicks honestly. It's so important to go to a good range with good range safety officers who can teach you how to do things well.

They are trained military men and i am a novice, i kinda understood why they laughed. You are, however, correct, and i WILL ring my brother up to ask him that next time perhaps his close knit buddies dont make the best environment for me, or that i need a better facility.

I will write a report

The only reason I would ever buy a gun is to go to a range because it's fun, or if I was going on a long camping trip because I don't have claws or sharp teeth and bears/wolves/badgers do.

I have ignored a lot in this thread, but since we are on the subject of dogs(idk why), i cant resist making this comment (despite the fact that alan made some fantastic points)

Alan, you know, its funny how similar our ideologies are and yet how different our views are. I take my dogs in the woods instead of a gun. They are trained to kill humans, a bear wont do much. And there are 2 of them.

I guess in the end we all want the same things

Ps: a bear wont bother you if a dog barks. Dogs are very loud and creatures notice

Yeah for saving lives in general!

 

[Surgo]

They are trained military men and i am a novice, i kinda understood why they laughed. You are, however, correct, and i WILL ring my brother up to ask him that next time perhaps his close knit buddies dont make the best environment for me, or that i need a better facility.

This sort of thing just super pisses me off tbh. Here we've got somebody trying to learn how to defend themselves, which is a super admirable goal, and they are asking for help doing it. The response of these people is to laugh at it??? That sort of shitty behavior is just straight up not allowed in the ranges I frequent. I'm sure there's some better facilities you can find that are like that.

 

[Ohmachi]

This sort of thing just super pisses me off tbh. Here we've got somebody trying to learn how to defend themselves, which is a super admirable goal, and they are asking for help doing it. The response of these people is to laugh at it??? That sort of shitty behavior is just straight up not allowed in the ranges I frequent. I'm sure there's some better facilities you can find that are like that.

The problem is that it's statisticaly more likely he's going to hurt him self, or negligently allow someone else to have access to it. If Ninahaza wants to practice using a fire arm I'm all for that. If he wants to own a gun thats a completely diffrent.

 

[Surgo]

The problem is that it's statisticaly more likely he's going to hurt him self, or negligently allow someone else to have access to it. If Ninahaza wants to practice using a fire arm I'm all for that. If he wants to own a gun thats a completely diffrent.

Did you mean to respond to somebody else? Because what you said doesn't follow from what I was discussing with Ninahaza.

 

[Ninahaza]

The problem is that it's statisticaly more likely he's going to hurt him self, or negligently allow someone else to have access to it. If Ninahaza wants to practice using a fire arm I'm all for that. If he wants to own a gun thats a completely diffrent.

Thats a lot of assumption coming from you.

The worst part is that i have a tab open about the recent/new New Zealand shooting while i have another tab with a typed up paragraph responding to your assumptions about a guy you dont know.

Luckily Surgo was savage enough in his response that i will delete my response.

 

[THE_IRON_...KENYAN?]

Why is the picture you decided to show us of your brother just him eating a piece of chicken

 

[Ninahaza]

Haha.

Ok TIK stop. I decided to take a moment of silence due to recent events in New Zealand. I decided to wait a while until returning to this thread due to the current atmosphere. Dont ask me questions for shits and giggles atm.

Also, btw, chicken is a universal language. All cultures/walks of life enjoy it. Many recipes, much wow

 

[billymills]

Assume you're in a situation where a gun could be useful.

What do you think the odds are that the gun saves your life?

Do you think there are situations where the gun could increase risk to your personal safety? (Interactions with police, mishandling, etc.)

Where exactly would you be allowed to carry it? (Some buildings would have restrictions I assume.) Would this cause inconveniences?

For me I'd forget it somewhere stupid, so it wouldn't be worth the trouble.

 

[Ninahaza]

Assume you're in a situation where a gun could be useful.

What do you think the odds are that the gun saves your life?

Do you think there are situations where the gun could increase risk to your personal safety? (Interactions with police, mishandling, etc.)

Where exactly would you be allowed to carry it? (Some buildings would have restrictions I assume.) Would this cause inconveniences?

For me I'd forget it somewhere stupid, so it wouldn't be worth the trouble.

I see the moment of silence is over.

Billymills, long time no talk to. I hope you have been well old friend

I see i will have to respond to your post, if only because you made some good points.
Also, billymills, you aren't the first to bring up cops in this thread. While i formulate my response, why do you think cops are being brought up so much for a legal matter? My gun would be as legal as myself

 

[internet]

ninahaza when he sees a cop

 

[Ninahaza]

ninahaza when he sees a cop

Internet, you are not even worthy of using my name for your assumptions.

Were i to still have my mod badge, i would delete the internet('s comment) from the.........well, internet.

I respect cops. Fool

 

[Ninahaza]

A link to help in your unworthiness

 

[Surgo]

Also, billymills, you aren't the first to bring up cops in this thread. While i formulate my response, why do you think cops are being brought up so much for a legal matter? My gun would be as legal as myself

Because as a black man in this country, what happened to Philando Castile ought to be on your mind when you think about whether or not to carry.

 

[Ninahaza]

Sorry i am still working through these replies with my current schedule

Assume you're in a situation where a gun could be useful.
Alright

What do you think the odds are that the gun saves your life?
Pretty good if i am in a situation where a gun could be useful, especially if i happen to know how to use one

Do you think there are situations where the gun could increase risk to your personal safety? (Interactions with police, mishandling, etc.)
Yes, of course. I will give you this one.

Where exactly would you be allowed to carry it? (Some buildings would have restrictions I assume.) Would this cause inconveniences?
Enough places. You only have to look at the current crisis of shootings of schools, social events, religious buildings/gatherings etc to understand this point.

Good thing thats not what i want out of a gun, to SHOOT up social events. I have never understood that notion of just shooting up a place. Weird, must be a me thing, or race thing, or a way of understanding..thing

Ps: my replies are in your post, billymills. Old school style

Because as a black man in this country, what happened to Philando Castile ought to be on your mind when you think about whether or not to carry.

I suppose as a black man in America i cant deny that our Justice system is fucked up. I cant deny that whenever i see a "straight outta Compton" shirt on someone or hear the phrase "Fuck the police" from the historical group N.W.A, i give a smile.

At the same time i would take a bullet for a cop, given the right circumstances. I suppose its a complicated matter that not even i can give a simple answer to. (Sadly)

 

[Ninahaza]

If you really want to know how i view the United States Justice system, just message your favorite mod, because i will need 3 mods to message me with their approval that i can really let loose

I dont care the mods

 

[Nightingales]

For the record, I was reading through this stuff and then got annoyed so Yada yada disclaimer whatever.

Guns are an escalation. Every time you draw yours, you are escalating a situation. If you are pulling out your weapon for anything that’s not shooting at the range, it is life and death. It doesn’t matter if you’re ok with killing somebody, it doesn’t matter if you’re scared, as soon as that gun is freed, you’re in a life or death situation. You have a deadly weapon and should only draw it with intent to kill.

No warning shots. No “shoot non-vital.” Anybody who tells you that, I would not trust with a weapon. You pull that out, you better be damn ready to end somebody’s life. It’s the same deal with any other lethal weapon. You don’t even think about going for it unless you are absolutely, 100% certain you need it, and are going to kill somebody. End of discussion.

Anyways, into the actual topic: this one’s really up to the individual. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to have myself a handgun under my own name. I always found them fun to shoot at a range, and I’m of age to carry concealed anyways so I gave it some serious though, and came away with it not really being worth it. If somebody’s got a gun on me, odds are he’ll shoot me before I can get mine on him. If somebody’s shooting up a school, odds are I’m not being let anywhere near with mine on my person anyways. Same for any major event or social thing, and I live in the south.

But.

There’s questions you’ll want to ask yourself too. There’s not gonna ever really be an easy yes or no. Yeah, they’re useful to have sometimes, can cause trouble other times, it’s all up to the user and what you plan to realistically run into. If you think it’ll help you more often than not, then go for it. Just make sure it’s something you’re comfortable with.

 

[faint]

the title says meme, and i can't tell if it's because you're just making fun of the change my mind meme, but if you are serious about purchasing a firearm, here are my concerns:

1) you want to purchase a firearm but seem to suggest you don't know how to use one
2) if you are carrying a firearm and get involved in a situation where you are forced to draw your weapon, you are conveying a message that you are willing to kill which is going to escalate whatever situation you're in (guns do not de-escalate situations like in movies)
3) you will be a black man in America carrying a gun and that's all a cop will need to say before being placed on paid administrative leave