Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v2

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6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
Going back to the 'replacement for stall if Duggy goes' - I'd like to bring up Gliscor:

gliscor.gif


Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 8 Def / 200 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Taunt
- Toxic
- Roost
- Earthquake

Not only is the standard Taunt Stallbreaker set blatantly potent on Stall, but it also supplies Stall with another ground type to fill the space (I know Duggy was used for trapping, but I digress). Poison Heal + Roost gives this thing sustain that tbh is unlike anything else in the game, and has very few type weaknesses to support the team with.

In UU atm it's also extremely centralizing IMO, and I think that giving stall an excuse to usage creep this thing back into OU would be a good (if indirect) way to go.

Fun question: If there would ever be a Gen 4 remake with Defog as a HM - what do we think would get it?
 
Going back to the 'replacement for stall if Duggy goes' - I'd like to bring up Gliscor:

View attachment 78360

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 8 Def / 200 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Taunt
- Toxic
- Roost
- Earthquake

Not only is the standard Taunt Stallbreaker set blatantly potent on Stall, but it also supplies Stall with another ground type to fill the space (I know Duggy was used for trapping, but I digress). Poison Heal + Roost gives this thing sustain that tbh is unlike anything else in the game, and has very few type weaknesses to support the team with.

In UU atm it's also extremely centralizing IMO, and I think that giving stall an excuse to usage creep this thing back into OU would be a good (if indirect) way to go.

Fun question: If there would ever be a Gen 4 remake with Defog as a HM - what do we think would get it?
This isn't really a replacement for Duggy, as Duggy's primary role on Stall was to trap and KO major threats to Stall. While true, Gliscor can break some Stall mons, it doesn't really compare.

That said, Gliscor could make a comeback on Stall if the metagame adapted more favorably for it. We'll see what happens when the ORAS megas are released and Metagross/Pinsir have some more competition.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
I hate fighting gliscor so much but I have never been able to make much use out of it personally.

Yes it's a good annoying mon but where do You put him in teambuilding and moveset?

Stall needs a defogger so the first weakness You gain is ice bolt.

Taunt is awesome but if it's a set up sweeper it's likly faster unless You were stabbing in the dark. Most hazard users are faster as well but it's great vs defog and recovery.

It is good at stalling but it's only teammates that makes sense to me is Chansey+ Toxapex(rocky helmet haze)

Whole core dies from offensive lando with hp ice

Greninja Ice beam, low kick, one psychic move(spikes good filler)

Buzzwole with ice punch/eq with I've ran a lot
Mega meta

While a lot more combos than I can list.

Just I don't know what offers vs the lures people use to dismantle stall/balance.

It's kills other stall tho
 
Not sure what Gliscor can do to Mega Sableye stall, that goblin hard stops stallbreakers like Gliscor unless maybe if it fits Swords Dance in their moveset.
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
I hate fighting gliscor so much but I have never been able to make much use out of it personally.

Yes it's a good annoying mon but where do You put him in teambuilding and moveset?

Stall needs a defogger so the first weakness You gain is ice bolt.

Taunt is awesome but if it's a set up sweeper it's likly faster unless You were stabbing in the dark. Most hazard users are faster as well but it's great vs defog and recovery.

It is good at stalling but it's only teammates that makes sense to me is Chansey+ Toxapex(rocky helmet haze)
I guess that makes sense. In Sm4sh I find Shulk Palu MU easy as hell for Shulk, but considering I can't pin down anything fundamentally sticking out about the MU - I always consider it even.

Moving on from that tangential analogy and carrying on from my previous post, maybe I could talk about what I see rising back into OU at some point (either via usage creeps or general bans). Think of these as 'mons currently in UU that are underrated in OU' if you will:


scizor.gif
bisharp.gif


These two are the first I would put on the chopping block - starting with Scizor, mostly for its bulk and excellent defensive typing (with one weakness that can be easily supported for). This thing is also about as flexible as it needs to be, running Roost/Defog support, Uturn for some of the best momentum in UU (and I doubt that changes in OU, given how bulky VoltTurn is supposedly on the rise ft. Magearna), and if your team lacks a good Steel type - good LUCK trying to take boosted Bullet Punches from this thing (and even then it can run Knock Off - which as far as i'm aware, no Steel in the tier appreciates losing its item). I'm aware that this thing isn't as good as its Mega in OU (no s**t, Rentaro) - but I do think it has enough flexibility to rise again whilst leaving the Mega slot open.

Bisharp I think will also rise soon enough (likely through ban tbh), as very little can take a +2 Sucker Punch, even post nerf. Dark/Steel is practically unresisted in UU (as most, if not all of the things that DO resist said combination, are frail), and it also has plenty of flexibility in the tier (Band/LO/SD - hell, I can see Psychium Z being a thing as a Fighting lure, with coverage to boot). Spikes support is also good with Bisharp, as it pressures teams to reach for Defog (one of the things that it punishes the hardest), and overall I think UU is asking a bit too much to keep Sharp there.


volcanion.gif


While it has actually proven itself not to be unhealthy for the tier below, the fact that Volcanion dropped at all honestly baffles me (at the end of ORAS OU, this thing was... what, A-?). For one, the standard Specs set has very few switch ins, and with correct coverage - has plenty to counteract its would-be counters (Earth Power to cover it's Rock/Electric weakness and catch Toxapex/Tentacruel slipping, and HP Electric to snipe Pelliper/Gyarados with are the two notable examples I can think of. Alongside excess coverage in the form of Sludge Bomb/Flash Cannon to occasionally beat SpDef fairies with). At times, I've even seen Grassium Z sets akin to the MagDoom Heatran sets in OU to catch other 'counters' like Gastrodon/Swampert trying to come in.

The only reason I can see for this thing dropped off was the burn nerf, but considering this thing can hit so blatantly hard, it doesn't really matter IMO.


raikou.gif


The reason I bring up Raikou is less for its place in UU atm (which I think is for the most part is fine), and more for how it brings to light certain conflicts in our current tiers. Xurkitree, a mon considered slightly mediocre in spite of its “BLOODY HELL!” 173 Sp.Atk, is currently OU - and we have recently had both forms of Thundurus banned from UU (I having a wide movepool, and Therian having a Gigavolt Havoc post-np with essentially no switchins after precious little chip.). I'm not saying Raikou should be banned to the BL - but it does confuse me that Raikou couldn't make use of some sort of CM + Electrium Z set (or similar) to exercise the tier with. To put things in perspective, Raikou is faster than both forms of Thuni' by at least 4 base points, is slightly bulkier (and NOT weak to SR like the other two), and while I do admit it's movepool isn't quite as lavish as the two Thundurus forms, it has as much coverage as it needs to work with. Again, I'm not saying to should be banned from UU or anything - but if there is at any point a form of usage creep, I think that would be a good indicator that this has been realized. Oh yeah, and we have Mega Manetric out of commission atm… that’s worth considering, I guess?

...Or, Xurkitree could drop off and I could be completely wrong.


clefable.gif


If the two steels at the top end up going - I can see this thing becoming unhealthy for UU. Being essentially immune of certain status is honestly a luxury that makes Clefable extremely hard for the majority of teams to deal with, as well as immunity to LO recoil and being able to switch in and out of SR feely. Speaking of which, being able to lay Stealth Rocks itself, as well as having the typing to scare Mega Absol (IMO the tiers’ best Magic Bouncer) is a trait in itself – and if you’re not one to logic check team layouts, Clefs’ wide move pool makes it one of the more unpredictable mons in not just the tier, but the game in general. Don’t even get me started on how bulky this thing is, either…

Tl;dr – think ORAS Clefable, but with the Twave nerf blown out of proportion.
 
I'm really disappointed in both myself and smogon analysis. At myself for not knowing about the item called zoom lens, and at smogon for NOT recommending it on a SINGLE pokemon set in the entire game.

It could be extremely helpful on a number of slow pokemon, eg it would make ferrothorn's leech seed and power whip both 100 accuracy, and giving torkoal's fire spin and will o wisp both 100 accuracy. And thats just scratching the surface. Unbelievable that smogon analysis thinks its so bad that it hasn't been recommended on any of smogons 10000+ sets over the last 3 generations.
 
I'm really disappointed in both myself and smogon analysis. At myself for not knowing about the item called zoom lens, and at smogon for NOT recommending it on a SINGLE pokemon set in the entire game.

It could be extremely helpful on a number of slow pokemon, eg it would make ferrothorn's leech seed and power whip both 100 accuracy, and giving torkoal's fire spin and will o wisp both 100 accuracy. And thats just scratching the surface. Unbelievable that smogon analysis thinks its so bad that it hasn't been recommended on any of smogons 10000+ sets over the last 3 generations.
Leftovers and shed shell are probably more useful for ferro. The problem with zoom lens is that the Pokemon that would want to use it are usually better off with other items.
 
I guess that makes sense. In Sm4sh I find Shulk Palu MU easy as hell for Shulk, but considering I can't pin down anything fundamentally sticking out about the MU - I always consider it even.

Moving on from that tangential analogy and carrying on from my previous post, maybe I could talk about what I see rising back into OU at some point (either via usage creeps or general bans). Think of these as 'mons currently in UU that are underrated in OU' if you will:


View attachment 78372 View attachment 78369

These two are the first I would put on the chopping block - starting with Scizor, mostly for its bulk and excellent defensive typing (with one weakness that can be easily supported for). This thing is also about as flexible as it needs to be, running Roost/Defog support, Uturn for some of the best momentum in UU (and I doubt that changes in OU, given how bulky VoltTurn is supposedly on the rise ft. Magearna), and if your team lacks a good Steel type - good LUCK trying to take boosted Bullet Punches from this thing (and even then it can run Knock Off - which as far as i'm aware, no Steel in the tier appreciates losing its item). I'm aware that this thing isn't as good as its Mega in OU (no s**t, Rentaro) - but I do think it has enough flexibility to rise again whilst leaving the Mega slot open.

Bisharp I think will also rise soon enough (likely through ban tbh), as very little can take a +2 Sucker Punch, even post nerf. Dark/Steel is practically unresisted in UU (as most, if not all of the things that DO resist said combination, are frail), and it also has plenty of flexibility in the tier (Band/LO/SD - hell, I can see Psychium Z being a thing as a Fighting lure, with coverage to boot). Spikes support is also good with Bisharp, as it pressures teams to reach for Defog (one of the things that it punishes the hardest), and overall I think UU is asking a bit too much to keep Sharp there.


View attachment 78373

While it has actually proven itself not to be unhealthy for the tier below, the fact that Volcanion dropped at all honestly baffles me (at the end of ORAS OU, this thing was... what, A-?). For one, the standard Specs set has very few switch ins, and with correct coverage - has plenty to counteract its would-be counters (Earth Power to cover it's Rock/Electric weakness and catch Toxapex/Tentacruel slipping, and HP Electric to snipe Pelliper/Gyarados with are the two notable examples I can think of. Alongside excess coverage in the form of Sludge Bomb/Flash Cannon to occasionally beat SpDef fairies with). At times, I've even seen Grassium Z sets akin to the MagDoom Heatran sets in OU to catch other 'counters' like Gastrodon/Swampert trying to come in.

The only reason I can see for this thing dropped off was the burn nerf, but considering this thing can hit so blatantly hard, it doesn't really matter IMO.


View attachment 78371

The reason I bring up Raikou is less for its place in UU atm (which I think is for the most part is fine), and more for how it brings to light certain conflicts in our current tiers. Xurkitree, a mon considered slightly mediocre in spite of its “BLOODY HELL!” 173 Sp.Atk, is currently OU - and we have recently had both forms of Thundurus banned from UU (I having a wide movepool, and Therian having a Gigavolt Havoc post-np with essentially no switchins after precious little chip.). I'm not saying Raikou should be banned to the BL - but it does confuse me that Raikou couldn't make use of some sort of CM + Electrium Z set (or similar) to exercise the tier with. To put things in perspective, Raikou is faster than both forms of Thuni' by at least 4 base points, is slightly bulkier (and NOT weak to SR like the other two), and while I do admit it's movepool isn't quite as lavish as the two Thundurus forms, it has as much coverage as it needs to work with. Again, I'm not saying to should be banned from UU or anything - but if there is at any point a form of usage creep, I think that would be a good indicator that this has been realized. Oh yeah, and we have Mega Manetric out of commission atm… that’s worth considering, I guess?

...Or, Xurkitree could drop off and I could be completely wrong.


View attachment 78370

If the two steels at the top end up going - I can see this thing becoming unhealthy for UU. Being essentially immune of certain status is honestly a luxury that makes Clefable extremely hard for the majority of teams to deal with, as well as immunity to LO recoil and being able to switch in and out of SR feely. Speaking of which, being able to lay Stealth Rocks itself, as well as having the typing to scare Mega Absol (IMO the tiers’ best Magic Bouncer) is a trait in itself – and if you’re not one to logic check team layouts, Clefs’ wide move pool makes it one of the more unpredictable mons in not just the tier, but the game in general. Don’t even get me started on how bulky this thing is, either…

Tl;dr – think ORAS Clefable, but with the Twave nerf blown out of proportion.
While I can potentially see Bisharp and Clefable rising, all of the other mons you mentioned are just not all that good right now. Mega Scizor is mostly used because of its bulk, which allows to check top tier threats like Metagross, and I just don't really see the reason to run regular Scizor when even its mega is not amazing right now. Raikou isn't even ranked on the viability ranking thread, because it faces too much competition from other eletric types, so it's really hard to justify using it. Volcanion isn't really that bad, but it was better in ORAS because it performs best against Balance teams, which are not that common at the moment. Stall can either wall it with Chansey or trap it with Dugtrio, and offensive teams will give it little to no switch in opportunities. Being hazard weak and stacking an electric weakness with Tapu Fini, the best defogger in the tier, doesn't help it either. Ultimately, only Bisharp and Clefable would be likely to actually rise, since the others are either pretty niche in Volcanion's case, or just outright outclassed and even bad in the other two cases.
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
Mega Scizor is mostly used because of its bulk, which allows to check top tier threats like Metagross, and I just don't really see the reason to run regular Scizor when even its mega is not amazing right now.
'Mega Scizor is not amazing'... Uh... being one of MMetas' few consistent switchins I think gives it at least something, wouldn't you agree?

Raikou isn't even ranked on the viability ranking thread, because it faces too much competition from other eletric types, so it's really hard to justify using it.
What other elec...

*sees Tapu Koko*

Eh, touche... still - in that case you don't see Xurk' dropping? And if Duggy gets the boot all electric types will appreciate it, no matter how you look at it.

Volcanion isn't really that bad, but it was better in ORAS because it performs best against Balance teams, which are not that common at the moment.
Oh, it's always balance getting the short end of the stick, isn't it? In fact...


Take a shot for every time Blunder says 'X Z-move user destroys balance', I guarantee at least 8 points if you're doing a drinking game.

Stall can either wall it with Chansey or trap it with Dugtrio, and offensive teams will give it little to no switch in opportunities. Being hazard weak and stacking an electric weakness with Tapu Fini, the best defogger in the tier, doesn't help it either.
Again - Duggy is likely going to end up guilty as charged (I.E: banned), and you should have support for Chansey anyway (Buzzwole/Lando-T/Tyranitar can comfortably deal with Chansey IMO). You're also acting as if Fini is the only viable Deffoger in OU, when the Lati Twins have existed for 4 gens now (not to mention Rapid Spin is a thing). I do admit Vloc is a little slow though, so saying it's meh vs offense I can't really argue with tbh (apart from how it can destroy many kinds of switchins).
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
Xurxitree is relevant as opposed to raikou because it has a legitimate function baton pass teams with its potential for snowballing. As long as BP is relevant, xuritree will as well. Raikou doesnt have a significant niche in the tier to warrant real usage to make it OU.
Haven't really seen much use of Baton Pass tbh. Though I have seen that wierd Tail Glow + Z-Hypnosis set kicking around a couple of times, if that is any good (DualDance Lando-T seems to be all the range, and I don't see this as much worse).
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
It is much worse because of its middling speed (at +1 you still fail to outspeed a lot of things, primarily +Spe Pheromosa and every Scarfer in the tier) and below average bulk / defensive typing which Lando-T has in spades. Also, Lando has the luxury of using a Z move to unleash a powerful attack whereas Xurkitree is forced to use it on a setup move.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
Really You need at least one steel type on any team You make, I don't think there's much room for bisharp unless we really start needing a scary switch in for ghosta

On the zoom lens I thinknow there was a serious set for in on 4th Gen gengar to better abuse focus blast, icy wind and hypnosis

Just it's outclassed by the 1 time 100% Z move and sleep is a very shaky status in ou alone with choice items being worth the risk.

I rather have the power to force a switch even if it whiffs than not and it hits being to weak
 
I'm really disappointed in both myself and smogon analysis. At myself for not knowing about the item called zoom lens, and at smogon for NOT recommending it on a SINGLE pokemon set in the entire game.

It could be extremely helpful on a number of slow pokemon, eg it would make ferrothorn's leech seed and power whip both 100 accuracy, and giving torkoal's fire spin and will o wisp both 100 accuracy. And thats just scratching the surface. Unbelievable that smogon analysis thinks its so bad that it hasn't been recommended on any of smogons 10000+ sets over the last 3 generations.
Its not recommended on anything because its so vastly inferior to so many much better items. Going off of the pokemon you named, ferothorn isnt giving up a way to not get fucked over by mag or its passive recovery on a mon that lacks recovery, just to not miss a 90% accurate move and an uncommon attacking option. The only reason to use torkoal is on sun teams, on which you'd obviously want heat rock, but even if for some ungodly reason you're running torkoal off of sun, again, you want leftovers on a mon without recovery much more than not missing a bad move and a move that has a passable 85% anyway. Theres just no reason to use it on anything
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
^^ You're thinking of Wide Lens. Zoom Lens boosts accuracy by 1.2x, but only if the user moves after the target.

I could see that having use on stuff like Goodra (which likes to use stuff like Draco Meteor, Power Whip, etc) but most of the time you want something that actually increases your damage output.
 
OU is funny, in a certain extent: even you are supposed to be prepared against some threats like Meta Metagross, it ,unless you play stall, pressures your team...
Its pretty hard to revenge kill it, you have to weaken it. But, if you want to weaken it, you have to sacrifice 1 mon....
It isnt S rank for nothing, the only non scarf mons which can OHKO it are salazzle(lol) and specs greninja(life orb needs rock+a roll to kill it...); scarf need prior damage(exept heatran scarf with fire blast if you dont miss)
Baton pass, if you are a little bit prepared isnt a problem, if you have roar/whirlwind/... or if you play well. Generally, its match up dependent(good luck against stall/if your opponent has roar...)
At least, if you are a little bit prepared, stall is manageable(without duggy), but the majority of "anti stall mons" are weak against faster threats...
I noticed a lot of teams are unprepared against stall, maybe its because they want to deal with top tiers easier...
I tried to prepare my team against stall, but I was weaker against things like Greninja and Mega Metagross...
Finally, in the current metagame, its pretty hard/impossible to deal with everything at once: even you are prepared against top tiers, they remain a problem; if you forget to be prepared against stall, good luck.

But, it proves Pokemon requires skill...
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
Same If You use rapid spin


Curious about using tapa Fini on shednija stall, it was the only thing that's come to mind that might be a really solid check to coil/toxic Zygarde that's been smashing my teams face in, also it checks a lot of other stuff, I had noirvern for beating Zygarde/specS Pre ash greninja and a few other things.

Just not sure if I want defog fini+defog Zapdos aND if it really stands up to Zygarde when being used to check other stuff, but that said I make my max speed heatran last.
 
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Same If You use rapid spin


Curious about using tapa Fini on shednija stall, it was the only thing that's come to mind that might be a really solid check to coil/toxic Zygarde that's been smashing my teams face in, also it checks a lot of other stuff, I had noirvern for beating Zygarde/specS Pre ash greninja and a few other things.

Just not sure if I want defog fini+defog Zapdos aND if it really stands up to Zygarde when being used to check other stuff, but that said I make my max speed heatran last.
Maybe Tapu Bulu? Can tank Zygarde for days, stand up to various Greninja depending on how you build it, and is generally a good mon. Not sure if it fits your team though.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
Maybe Tapu Bulu? Can tank Zygarde for days, stand up to various Greninja depending on how you build it, and is generally a good mon. Not sure if it fits your team though.
Toxic eats bulu alive, I realized I can use Fini and not worry about toxic and PP stall them out by slow baton passing to slowly Leftovers heal my team maybe sneak in a taunt when they try to drill through coil PP instead of thousand arrows

Only role compression my team needs now is something that can kill fire moth(I assume they'll be at full health and quiver dance as I'm switching in a check/counter[I already have heatran]) and something that can stop lead mold breaker exadrill toxic/rocks+ 2 offensive moves.

If I can figure out something that can 100% roll them everytime isn't steel/a mega I'm golden
 

Leo

after hours
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MPL Champion
Toxic eats bulu alive, I realized I can use Fini and not worry about toxic and PP stall them out by slow baton passing to slowly Leftovers heal my team maybe sneak in a taunt when they try to drill through coil PP instead of thousand arrows

Only role compression my team needs now is something that can kill fire moth(I assume they'll be at full health and quiver dance as I'm switching in a check/counter[I already have heatran]) and something that can stop lead mold breaker exadrill toxic/rocks+ 2 offensive moves.

If I can figure out something that can 100% roll them everytime isn't steel/a mega I'm golden
Tapu Fini+Shed can't PP Stall Zygarde because on the fifth turn of Misty Terrain you will have your Tapu Fini on the field which means your opp has a free turn to threaten shed with a toxic, forcing you into something else.
 
tfw reyscarface saves Dugtrio from the ban hammer, I think that essay post cemented the suspect decision more than anything else. cool.

So stall will still be prominent, and I think we'll see a continuation of recent trends until other mons (which need not be named since they're obvious) are tested.

In the meantime let's just spam Meta and Gren like crazy; no reason not to since they're so damn good tbh.
 
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