Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

Altariel von Sweep

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I'm so dissapointed with Cosmog. It had the impression of Z-Eevee check, but its stats aren't enough to survive Eevee STABs, and it only learns Teleport. I'm also dissapointed with Rufflet, frustrating that Hustle + Brave Bird is ilegal, it could have been a top tier threat.
 
mudbray is pretty great. it's kind of hard to justify its role on a team but it basically functions as a bulky attacker that 1v1s a large portion of the meta. resttalk variants become harder to kill as you keep hitting it (stamina's a great ability) and berry juice is a one-time check to pretty much anything it's not weak to (wins 1v1 vs shellder lol...). earthquake/heavy slam/rock slide 2hkoes most stuff, at the very least forcing its checks to recover. it's a pretty irritating mon to face in the current metagame and i'd definitely consider it worth running on a team.

stufful just struck me as... mediocre. fluffy is a good ability and checking physical smashers is nice and all but the typing is just so unappealing... maybe someone else has had different experiences with it.

hail is fun and definitely viable but alolan sandshrew can only do so much and waters are a bit irritating to it. not to mention the typing is poor versus priority unlike, say, bellsprout's.

overall the meta looks interesting to say the least: once baton pass and porygon with its z conversion are banned (seriously that thing is ridiculous), we'll probably get a better idea of where everything stands. looking forward to playing
 

Corporal Levi

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At first I figured Sandshrew-A would be about as relevant as Sand Rush Sandshrew, but the extra coverage makes it feel way more threatening than Sand Rush Sandshrew ever was in gen 6. Ice/Ground hits pretty much every relevant Pokemon for at least neutral damage. It doesn't even lose to Abra if you're willing to risk Icicle Spear over Icicle Crash. Bulky Waters aren't too bad when the dominant ones are Shellder, Staryu, Chinchou, and Mareanie; Chinchou and Mareanie are weak to Earthquake, and Shellder and Staryu need HP Fighting/Fire to reliably beat Sandshrew-A. Fire-types hate having Morning Sun weakened by Hail, Pawniard and Magnemite are smacked by Earthquake (and Pawniard needs Fighting coverage to immediately threaten Sandshrew), and Ferroseed can cripple Sandshrew-A with paralysis but loses 1v1. Fighting-types aren't as prominent as before, especially the priority users, because they don't like how popular Gothita is at all, and a lot of them hate Cutiefly as well (still probably the best type overall though). Eviolite Mienfoo and Scraggy can be annoying against Eviolite variants if they aren't Knocked Off, but they aren't able to stand up to LO SD, which isn't as unreasonable as it sounds because Sandshrew still has the bulk and resistances to set up. I've really been liking Scarf Mienfoo to deal with Scraggy, though, and that doesn't fare too well against Sandshrew-A. Plus, Sandshrew-A also has its fair share of resistances, unlike Sandshrew, which gives it opportunities to actually switch in and start doing serious damage.

A bit off topic, but Sun is super strong right now. Not only has the Fletchling nerf made Bellsprout a lot harder to deal with, it's given the archetype much more flexibility in general now that you don't need like 2-3 checks for Fletchling alone to accommodate for automatically having two Fletch-weak mons in Vulpix and Bellsprout. Bellsprout doesn't care for Mudbray/Cutiefly/Mareanie, while Vulpix enjoys Slush Rush increasing Hail's viability and Mudbray/Mareanie decreasing Ponyta's presence. It may be worth running 14 Speed on Bellsprout due to the inflation of the 26/27 Speed tiers.

Vullaby's movepool wasn't increased, but it's ridiculously versatile right now, on par with even Mienfoo and Porygon imo. Having Rufflet and Doduo around hasn't at all hampered how easily Vullaby fits onto a team, because it can still do a bunch of things outside of wallbreaking. The offensive pivot set is still really effective, especially now that Archen isn't as prominent, though it strongly dislikes Mudbray. I suppose the Defog set is the best Defogger we have at the moment, though I'd rather choose Staryu for hazard removal most of the time. The Choice Scarf set has gotten much better, as it has an added niche of checking Scraggy and no longer competes with Fletchling; it has U-turn and workable bulk over Doduo, and is more reliable than Rufflet. But I think the biggest changes for what we will have to expect when we see a Vullaby, from now on, come from the simultaneous buff to Weak Armor and nerfs to Fletchling/Cottonee. Previously, Nasty Plot Vullaby was a decent wallbreaker against bulkier teams, but struggled to do significant damage to offense before being revenge-killed. Now, if Weak Armor is activated, NP Vullaby becomes absurdly threatening to all archetypes with its decent damage, fantastic coverage, and ability to outspeed almost any would-be revenge-killer if it manages to activate Weak Armor. It also has a bit of use as a soft check to certain setup sweepers such as Scraggy, as with its Eviolite-boosted bulk, it can still usually tank one attack, activating Weak Armor and allowing Vullaby to outspeed and KO a weakened sweeper. Z-Mirror Move Vullaby may not have the initial bulk, and its strongest attack can potentially cut its own sweep short, but a +2 Attack/+2 Speed Vullaby is still one of the scariest things you can face, and the extra damage is definitely an advantage over Nasty Plot variants. (For reference, Z-Mirror Move Vullaby's Knock Off is a Life Orb boost stronger than Nasty Plot Vullaby's Dark Pulse.)

Z-Conversion seems pretty dumb, but I think we should wait a bit before we decide whether or not it's outright broken. Keep in mind that after a boost, Porygon has Eviolite Agiligon levels of bulk, meaning it can potentially be revenge-killed by strong Scarf users such as Mienfoo. Compared to Eviolite Agiligon, it's essentially trading reusability, being able to outspeed most Scarf users, and taking more damage while setting up for a significant increase in power, which seems fair enough at a glance.
 
I haven't played the new generation of LC very much, but on paper Z-Splash seems interesting. It boosts Attack by 3 (!) stages, so the move finally has a competitive use (tentatively) after 6 generations of utter uselessness. Of the LC-legal pool of 'mons that can learn the move, some of the more interesting ones are Wailmer and Buneary (don't ask me why this learns Splash). Wailmer's rather slow but has a decent 70 base Attack and a surprisingly good physical movepool, while Buneary is a bit lacking in movepool (can't really hit Ghosts) but has respectable Attack and Speed at 66/85, and has access to Baton Pass.

Thoughts?
 
Some early thoughts and information that people should probably have. Also just going on the record that Eevee sucks dong.

1. Conversion Porygon: You realize that conversion is a move that has competitive value, right?

rhydonphilip Kingler12345 Your set is cool and without a doubt destructive, but I think it's being used sub optimally. Vacuum wave and Mach Punch are two accessible priority moves. Obviously, Porygon should be typed to mitigate this. Many of us, including me, forgot that you can actually change Porygon's typing with conversion. This means you can use shit like STAB Thunderbolt (Ice Beam / HP Ground coverage) or STAB Psychic (resisting both fighting priorities but weak to Sucker, but you can trap Pawniard easier this gen with Mag pull, more on this later). Unfortunately it doesn't get Moonblast or something absurd like that, but I think it's worth exploring the different types. I'm currently using Diglett (for abra chinch and mag, more on this later) + Stab BoltBeam Recover. If i decide I hate Diglett maybe I'll throw on HP Ground and put something else in that slot.

To counter porygon I've honestly just being running a shit load of priority and sturdy users - ie. what you have to do when something is just broke and you can't really counter it.

2. Diglett is still Diglett

Guys remember when we wanted to ban this shit. Well it's still just as good if not better. It has insane synergy with some of the new Pokemon and when the Flying movesets are fixed (ie. BB on Ruflett and Knock on Doduo or somethin?) and people realize Fletchling is still legit, then people will start noticing this more. It traps the fuck out of so many pokemon and the best part is that standard Pawn doesn't even OHKO with Sucker Punch any more because that shit was nerfed - though this nerf does hurt Diglett a bit.

3. Fletchling

OK, Fletchling isn't as spammable as it used to be but I think if you're creative enough you can absolutely abuse this Pokemon. People are NOT ready for the priority it brings and it tramples the shit out of popular Pokemon like Cutiefly and Scraggy. It's harder to get the SD you need, but seriously, just run Flame Charge and you basically have the Fletch you missed before but with slightly less reliability vs scarfers. Berry Juice can help but I usually just Defog Defog Defog, have hail counters and use Z-Memento to heal Fletch back up if it takes any residual damage. Yea, FletchDig isn't quite dead yet, it's still potent as far as I'm concerned.

4. Z-Memento

This has been what LC has been waiting for. Our healing wish users are ass, and I'd only recommend using them on things like Tirtouga that doubles as your fire-type counter and wincon because it'll get burned etc. Basically, if you aren't expecting to get statused and/or setting up vs Pawniard, this move is fucking awesome. I use it with Fletchling, SturdyJuicers, wall breakers that break down their own walls (like Timburr, Mudbray, Shellder) and even Porygon.

5. Cutiefuckingfly

Ok. This thing is fucked. You are basically forced into running a Fighting-type, and this thing can outspeed regular Fighting-types while maintaining respectable Defense and resistance to all Fighting/Dark moves and not taking nearly enough from Fire Punch/Stone Edge. The recipients in this tier that can just shit on everything with a Quiver dance are so numerous it's hard to even prepare for them all. Most Haze users will eventually die from 95 BP Moonblast, and those that can take a Moonblast are trappable as fuck (Poisons, Steels, Fires...............................).

SashBra works usually on the Recipient with Psych Up and Psyshock (as if it didn't have coverage issues before...), but relies on a tie if the Cutiefly user has a bain. Also can be trapped easily.

Get this thing out.
 

Rowan

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Confirming the power of Electric-type Z-Conversion Porygon. Something which Heysup forgot to mention is that Electric-types are immune to Paralysis so you don't have to worry about being checked by Thunder Wave Ferroseed or Bulky Porygon. With Recover, Z-Porygon beats these threats easily. It also resists both of Magnemite's STABs, so you only have to worry about HP Ground which still does less than half even to an uninvested Z-Porygon, so Recover beats it, and so does HP Ground obviously. Chinchou is annoying if you don't have HP Ground, but I still think Recover Porygon beats it 1v1. A final fun move that you can run on Electric-Z-Porygon is Magnet Rise. This stops you being revenged by Scarf Drilbur (which might start seeing more use once people realise Electric Porygon is incredible), Ground-type SturdyJuicers and Focus Sash Diglett. Kinda situational, but it can stop those unique counters.
 

macle

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Has anyone had success with any z move besides z-conversion? I've tried Diglett with dark z move memento but i think i just prefer LO and no other z move has really shown up in a battle that makes me want to try it out.
 

Altariel von Sweep

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Z-Splash is the reason why is Buneary rank B-, being able to get +3 Attack in one turn and being able to sweep/pass this boost to physical sweepers like Vanha and Scrag. Z-Belly Drum in Zigzagoon is a little bit good, you're Knock Off inmune and you can recover life and get +4 in one turn, it's like bringing BJ, but to make it work, you must be injured.
 

Corporal Levi

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Z-Mirror Move Vullaby (gives a Swords Dance boost, still boosts Vullaby's Attack if Mirror Move fails) is pretty insane right now. Currently PS has it so that Z-Mirror Move only copies the normal version of a move, instead of its Z-version like it's supposed to, but Z-Vully is already about as good as NP Vully; both are fantastic with the Weak Armor buff and Fletchling nerf, and not knowing which variant Vullaby is when Weak Armor is activated just makes it better. After a Weak Armor boost and Z-Mirror Move, Vully is probably sitting at 32 Atk and 30/28 Spe with two extremely strong STAB moves, as well as Rock Smash for Pawniard - more than enough to sweep late game. Once Z-Mirror Move gets fixed, I could easily see this being one of the best sets in the game.

On top of what Altariel mentioned, Pancham (maybe Meowth Alola?) with Z-Parting Shot and Cottonee with Z-Memento seem like balanced but fun options for HO. Some Pokemon like Bellsprout and Corphish that are already strong enough without LO but don't really need Eviolite's extra bulk can use Z-items to lure things, but I don't see much use for attacking Z-moves otherwise because LO/Eviolite offer a lot more throughout the match.
 
I really think people are underestimating Cutiefly's potential as a Fairy that isn't constrained to being a slow tank. It does have decent bulk for something that resists a lot of common physical moves and has a pretty fast Roost. As a Fairy win condition it pairs well with Diglett, but as Rowan pointed out in another thread, it also synergizes with Gothita and other mons through both typing and Cutiefly's Pass.
 

Coconut

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I really think people are underestimating Cutiefly's potential as a Fairy that isn't constrained to being a slow tank. It does have decent bulk for something that resists a lot of common physical moves and has a pretty fast Roost. As a Fairy win condition it pairs well with Diglett, but as Rowan pointed out in another thread, it also synergizes with Gothita and other mons through both typing and Cutiefly's Pass.
Considering people are trying to say that it's an S-Rank mon, I wouldn't really say that it would be considered underrated. Generally amazing typing with an incredible movepool and a hecka good speed stat just makes it really easy to use Cutiefly. I do agree that Cutiefly still has a ton of potential that we haven't really tapped into quite yet, but I also don't really consider it underestimated, as most people consider it to be a really, really good Pokemon.
 

Camden

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Just to let everyone know what's going on with council, we're currently discussing Porygon and possibly either Cutiefly or Baton Pass as our next bans. I'll provide more details later but for now I would like to encourage discussion of those two factors and what they're doing for our metagame. We'll more than likely do a vote on Porygon first because it's the more pressing issue.

For those of you that need to be caught up or just need a reminder, Porygon uses Conversion with Normalium Z to gain a +1 boost in all of its stats, and then has its typing changed depending on the move in the first slot. It will also have a Download boost on top of this, leaving it with +2 in its Special Attack. Most commonly, Thunderbolt is used in the first slot to give Porygon Electric-type, which as you all know leaves Ground as its only weakness. From there, it proceeds to outspeed the unboosted metagame and OHKO numerous Pokemon and 2HKO with Thunderbolt or another coverage option. Alternatively, it can use Psychic, Signal Beam, or nearly anything in the first slot to make its typing appropriate for the team. ote that it does also get Magnet Rise, so if you're willing to forgo Recover/3rd attack for it you can give yourself an easier time against some Ground-types. There are of course checks to this strategy, the most prominent being Munchlax, which can stomach a +2 STAB Thunderbolt and Whirlwind it away. A scarfed Ground-types can revenge kill it if it isn't using Magnet Rise, and strong scarfers and even some non-scarfed faster Pokemon in general can pressure and kill it before it gets to set up. You can also run Haze on something random, but most of those Pokemon don't want to take anything Pory will throw at them...except Wooper I guess. Guys, don't use Wooper. The key thing to remember with Porygon is that it can only boost once, so if it ever has to switch or is (p)hazed, it's done for.

Cutiefly is a Bug/Fairy that gets Quiver Dance! Those are both firsts for LC (the former being entirely new to the series). In addition, it gets Baton Pass, which means that Cutiefly's existence has made Baton Pass a much more viable strategy than ever before. Fletchling also received a nerf this gen, making it a much less reliable check against common Baton Pass strategies. Overall though, Quiverpassing is the main concern here, with Cutiefly being able to hand its passes over to a wide range of receivers, most prominent being Porygon and Vullaby, but appreciated by many (Gothita, Abra, Magnemite, and even physical attackers respect the boosts). Similar to Conversion Porygon, you can Whirlwind and Haze Cutiefly and its receivers, but unlike Porygon you're free to Quiver Dance multiple times per game.

The council will be voting on the fate of at least one of these threats at some point but I still want public discussion on the matter. Who knows, maybe you've got some great insight.
 
i don't understand the choice of suspect w.r.t porygon... would banning conversion not be simpler? i get that we don't ban moves and all but considering only porygon learns conversion (aside from smeargle and its evolutions, but those are not LC), wouldn't it be simpler to ban conversion? it's not even like we're picking specific parts of pokemon to nerf since porygon has been a defining part of the metagame for the past two generations and it's pretty evident that conversion is what makes it broken. this /might/ need to be a larger debate since i'm sure z-crystals will cause ridiculous shit like this in UU/RU/NU but I don't think any of those cases would feel as clear-cut as this one. i believe this was discussed at some point in the LC chat and banning conversion was seen as a reasonable prospect, just wondering why it wasn't brought up here.
 

Altariel von Sweep

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Porzgon is very threatening, getting +1 boost in all stats and adquiring Electric-type, but only one thing, Munchlax, can enter and take a +2 TBolt, and afterwards, phaze it. After using Whirlwind, Porygon can not use Z-Conversion anymore, becoming easier to beat.

+2 236 SpA Porygon Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 236+ SpD Munchlax: 18-22 (60 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Also, there are more answers, specifically, the Scarf Spam, like Scarf Drilbur and Scarf Mudbray, which can deal a great damage despite the +1 Defense boost, and even KO it. If it didn't get KOed, you can revenge kill it afterwards.

236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Porygon: 20-26 (86.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
196+ Atk Mudbray Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Porygon: 24-30 (104.3 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Even having these answers, Porzgon can pair very well with Cutiefly, which it gives boosts to Porzgon, and having +2 Speed lets Porzgon to outspeed the aforementioned Scarf Spam, and beat the rest of the metagame. Munchlax still endures a +3 Thunderbolt after this, but if it got damaged by rocks, it's easy to deal with it.


Cutiefly is one of the best Baton Passers that we get in Gen VII, exceeding the main BP user in Gen VI, Torchic. It's very hard to pressure, as Shield Dust protects it from secondary effects of attacks like Fake Out and Rock Slide, an awesome typing for a Fighting-type dominant tier, being resistant 4x, and having Quiver Dance + Baton Pass is the reason why it is very good. It can pass its boosts to mons like Gothita, and the aforementioned Porzgon to ease their sweep. Also, it can deal with the Fighting-types by itself, running an offensive set. One of the answers to this cute thing is Munchlax, tanking its hits and phazing.

I only focused on the offensive set, which honestly does more damage than the other sets.

+2 240 SpA Cutiefly Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 236+ SpD Munchlax: 16-21 (53.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Mareanie is another answer to Cutiefly. Haze does its work removing the stats boosts from Cutiefly to hinder its work, also taking its Psychic very well, thanks to the combination of Recover + Regenerator.

240 SpA Cutiefly Psychic vs. 116 HP / 180 SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 10-14 (43.4 - 60.8%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO


Another answer is Honedge, which it's uncommon, but it can beat Cutiefly by resisting +1 SpA HP Fire, if offensive, and pressuring Cutiefly. It can beat the Baton Pass set easily. It doesn't matter which Pokémon will pass its boost to, it can knock it too.

+1 240 SpA Cutiefly Hidden Power Fire vs. 76 HP / 140+ SpD Honedge: 16-20 (72.7 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
116 Atk Honedge Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Cutiefly: 14-20 (70 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO


In my opinion, this thing is sometimes dangerous, but if you are well prepared, you can defeat it.
 
Comparably I did make a small argument about Baton Pass and the lack of a clause in this tier.

Previously Baton Pass has been known for being a highly specific and hard to abuse play style being offend completely blocked by a simple Phazer, Clear Smog user or even an Encore Cottonee. In fact the most prominent one we saw was in the form of SD Mienfoo + Carvanha, which was a good offensive combination in that state of the metagame. But with the new introduction of a much more instant/Threatening form of baton pass in the form of Quiver Dance + Baton Pass from Cutiefly, I feel like we should atleast resuspect the need for a BP clause.
Last gen I tried utilizing Togepi with Nasty-Pass(and sometimes even paired with Torchic) to as much as I could place it on and found it to work decently well but this is in every way superior to the previous strategy with a more effective set up mon with recovery, better speed and not needing to pass to/from a mon like Torchic in order to gain speed.
Talking about the things to abuse with Quiver Pass I have found a few to be exceptionally effective:
-Porygon is easily one of the most prominent pokemon for this metagame in being a standalone threat and also a great recipient.
-Magnemite is still Magnemite, Recovery in recycle Berry Juice, Strong Dual Stab. I have even seen some people go all out with HP Ground and dropping Volt Switch for Thunderbolt. If that's a worthwhile trade off that's for debate but that shows it can opt for a full utilization of this strategy and still put in effective work outside of that strategy.
-Pumpkaboo/Frillish, while odd they fit exceptionally well on allot of current teams I feel like and they defiantly take good use of this increase in Special Defense/SpA and even in the speed depending on what set you did try to utilize.
-Abra, while Abra has quickly been able to show yet another feature to grant it use on every team in Sash + Psych Up, I don't think it's forgettable how strong this mon could be if you take care of some traditional answers like Strong priority users as this mon can outspeed any relevant scarfed threat, ability to 1HKO the vast vast majority of things etc. I can't speak from a personal experience on how effective it's current sets would be with this combination but I assume there would be some potential with both sets as Sash becomes as strong as the LO set and the LO set just became even more relevant.
-Gothita, I don't know what to say about this mon. It offend does more with 1 of the 2 popular sets then any other team mate and the fact it also happens to be a great recipient to quiver pass seems frightening. While I do think the Scarf set doesn't get that much it sure isn't a waste either as it now seems to Trick the scarf into something else more offend. The Stall-Breaker set or any of it's variants however, those gain allot from it. In fact they pair very well in beating down many common pokemon like Foongus/Mareanie. Also the ability to shut down specially oriented mons that lack momentum who can be seen more commonly thanks to Quiver Pass in general is a big hamper to the metagame.
-Cutiefly itself, while without question the least effective one it still shows how good this mon would be without Baton Pass aspect.
I do however feel as if there is no difference to this mon and say Omanyte in terms of being able to set up and take abuse of it's self set up.
Being able to set up on one of the most prominent types in the LC metagame is without question a good thing but it's limitation in coverage, limited bulk that needs a trade for speed further hindering on mons to set up on etc. I am very glad to finally see such a great mon in the LC metagame and it would be a shame if we did have to remove this over a stratagy that has been known for causing controversion trouble.
Other:
-Diglett: While diglett isn't passed into or gains use directly form Quiver Dance it just happens to pair exceptionally well(Heysup already stated this more clearly then I could).
-Special attackers or mons that would like the boost in speed: This isn't just limited to say Chinchou but also mons like Mienfoo without special moves can late game utilize the boost in Speed and backfire that sash broken Abra or Gothita or many other relevant threat late in game. Not even speaking of the utility mons like that also happen to have in just Spaming there fight move against more offensive Vullaby/Munchlax who also see more activity.

I tried to state it as oppenly as i could but I do see strong versatile points that have massive impact to the metagame if we don't argue for more ways of dealing with it.
 
Please don't ban Porygon, it isn't broken without Z-Conversion and I need that thing to revenge Diglett.

I've never seen anyone try to sweep with Cutiefly honestly. Gonna use calcs for passer.

+1 76 SpA Cutiefly Psychic vs. 116 HP / 180 SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 12-16 (52.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(12, 12, 12, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 16)

76 SpA Cutiefly Psychic vs. 116 HP / 180 SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 10-12 (43.4 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
(10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)

12 SpA Mareanie Sludge Bomb vs. 36 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Cutiefly: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 18)

Mareanie has 23 HP. So if Mareanie switches into Cutiefly as it QDs, Cutiefly will always kill it by using Psychic as it Hazes or Sludge Bombs, and Psychic again, so long as SR is up, but it has a 82.4% chance of doing it without SR, I think (13/16 + 3/16*1/16).

Honedge doesn't counter passer Mareanie because it can just Baton Pass.

There are only really 5 things I've seen that beat Cutiefly.

Cottonee Encores it, preventing it from passing, then you switch to a physical attacker and kill it.

Munchlax phazes it.

Psych Up + Psyshock Abra uses Psych Up and Psyshock (unless recipient is Dark).

Foongus, Grimer-Alola, and Shellos can Clear Smog it. Points to Grimer for oneshotting it with Poison Jab.

And Onix can take a hit with Sturdy and Roar it, unless the recipient is Lileep.

also unaware woobat with psych up fucking obliterates it


I really think that Cutiefly is overpowered. The fact that it can boost its defenses and speed and has good recovery in Roost means there's so little you can do to play against it since its tanky AND can leave whenever it wants, especially since it isn't weak to any priority. The fact that it has very powerful offensive capabilities without compromising its effectiveness as a passer limits the opponent into using things that deal with both Cutiefly AND the recipient, of which there are very few.

I know admins have been historically against complex bans, but I really would like it if just Quiver Dance + Baton Pass was banned. Baton Pass ban is unnecessary since its only broken on Cutiefly, the combination exists only on Cutiefly, and Cutiefly can still do very well as a Calm Mind passer and a QD sweeper. This would guaranteed balance the issue with Cutiefly's opponent being forced to deal with its recipient when countering it. If it runs Calm Mind + Pass, it can be beaten with physical scarfers like Pawniard, while if it runs an offensive QD set it either struggles with Steel-types if it runs Roost, or priority if it runs Hidden Power. Cutiefly is a very interesting pokemon as LC's first fast and offensive Fairy, I'd really hate to see the metagame lose a powerful, balanced option just because of the desire for the blacklist to look simple.
 
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I know there was some discussion going on in the LC discord last night but i wanted to just drop my thoughts here anyways. sorry if it seems kinda jumbled and disorganized i've got a lot of thoughts floating around

Porygon is a super weird case mainly because z-moves are super weird policy-wise in the first place. We kinda lucked out with eevee b/c it had a specific z-move item that no other mon could utilize so it was easy to just ban the item, but porygon uses normalium-z which is usable by any pokemon and not broken on the vast majority of moves in the metagame. The real question that council peeps have to ask themselves is: where do you draw the line on z-moves compared to normal moves (which i think is an extremely important distinction because as we move forward into SM lower tiers, alot of tier leaders / councils will probably use this decision as precedent on how to act in their own tier)? A lot of people seem to think that Z-Conversion in itself is a broken move, however when people talk about banning conversion they don't really take into account that you're also banning the base move: conversion which is obviously not a broken move. you can't really ban normalium-z + conversion because that kinda falls into complex territory and if the first ever z-move ban in gen 7 ends up being complex, it sets a messy precedent for the future and I (being on another tier's tiering council) would definitely like to avoid that if possible (im sure that most of the council agrees w/ me on that too).

Now that im done rambling about policy (which is something that i find myself doing alot recently) i'll actually leave my thoughts on the suspects (although be warned, there'll probably be alot of policy jargon in these thoughts anyways @_@). I see that the main thing that people really want gone is z-conversion because it boosts all of porygon's stats by 1 which makes it tough to revenge kill, and hit hard, and yadayadayada we all know why giving a bulky strong mon +1 everything is bad, especially in lc when a +1 boost in speed means so much more than in any other tier. The problem that I see w/ people just saying that z-conversion is broken is that there are other z-moves in the metagame right now that also boost all stats by +1 and nobody seems to consider them broken at all (for reference, i've included a list of pokemon that get these z-moves and what they are here). Nobody seems to think that pumpkaboo or meowth (both relevant LC mons in the past) getting +1 in all stats is broken so it becomes a question of whether its base conversion's effect + the boosts that makes porygon busted (in which case a conversion ban seems like the most plausible answer), or whether its just that porygon is just a flat out better mon than all of the other mons that can get a +1 boost (in which case a porygon ban would be the way to go).

Personally, (not being /super/ exposed to LC in the past, although i dabbled) I don't think that the extra typing boost matters as much (although it does play a role, im not trying to discount it fully) because mainly what makes por-z-gon so good is that you can maintain the eviolite bulk without fear of being knocked off while also gaining the necessary speed and spatk raises (especially if you get a good download) to become an offensive force at the same time. Not being exposed to LC in the past may also make me seem a little less lenient to try and keep porygon in the tier, (b/c i know that people have been using the term "good for the meta" alot which doesnt make a whole lot of sense to me considering that the meta is relatively new. although lc's meta has stayed fairly consistent in the past so maybe im reaching here idk) but i feel like if the council really wants to make an objective decision they won't think about how good a mon was for a past meta and let it influence their decision. Basically tldr id rather see porygon banned then conversion b/c i think that it's more about the base mon being too good with all those boosts than the actual move (type change + boosts) itself.

I don't really wanna go too much into qdfly b/c i don't really have a strong stance either way and im exhausted from writing about porygon. truthfully, i'd pretty much like to see some kind of ban of baton pass + speed because that's what NU did last gen and it worked out really well, but i know that the council seems adamant against complex stuff so i won't really waste my time on pushing for it. The option that i'd most like to see is just to ban quiver dance as a whole because cutiefly is the only mon that gets it and if you think about it, it just seems like an objectively busted move as a whole with LC mechanics. It just so happens that GF decided to give it to a mon that would already be really good without it, but because of how compacted speed tiers are along with how priority in general was nerfed this gen it seems like it would be busted no matter what you put it on. The problem with that of course is that you get into theorymon which is a touchy subject in general when discussing bans. Again, I don't really have a solid stance on the bug so i can't really contribute much to the conversation but i hope the council takes what i said into account at least.

god this turned out longer than i had hoped sorry if it seems too ramble-y, its pretty early here but i just wanted to get my thoughts out @_@
 
Evan. figured i'd try to address your points regarding porygon and further the discussion

i think a really attractive part of banning conversion is that nothing aside from porygon learns it. you can consider a porygon ban and a conversion ban synonymous in terms of nerfing por-z-gon, with the former banning other porygon sets. i think with the developments in the meta so far and basing off past LC metagames it's fair to assume porygon is a good presence in the meta; this should ultimately be a minor consideration but i don't think it shouldn't affect policy at all, considering that smogon is more open to considering what's "healthy" for the metagame in its bans nowadays).

pumpkaboo and phantump are far worse than porygon in terms of accomplishing the +1 to all stats thing, mostly because of porygon's better two-move coverage, stats, and typing (elec is REALLY good). i think this is generally agreed on. I disagree with your point on treating all "+1 to all" z-moves similarly; simply because of the different secondary effect, they aren't the same move and shouldn't fall under the same tiering umbrella. i guess you could consider them logical equivalents (which is probably what your post is comparing them as), but you can't pin porygon being the broken offender solely on its own qualities; the effect of regular conversion plays a huge part.

EDIT- i forgot to talk about cutiefly in my earlier post; i don't think it's broken but i generally agree with some form of a bp ban which doesn't let you pass quiver dance boosts; this could be a blanket bp ban or some complex form
 

Brambane

burn the midnight oil
is a Contributor Alumnus
Now that im done rambling about policy (which is something that i find myself doing alot recently) i'll actually leave my thoughts on the suspects (although be warned, there'll probably be alot of policy jargon in these thoughts anyways @_@). I see that the main thing that people really want gone is z-conversion because it boosts all of porygon's stats by 1 which makes it tough to revenge kill, and hit hard, and yadayadayada we all know why giving a bulky strong mon +1 everything is bad, especially in lc when a +1 boost in speed means so much more than in any other tier. The problem that I see w/ people just saying that z-conversion is broken is that there are other z-moves in the metagame right now that also boost all stats by +1 and nobody seems to consider them broken at all (for reference, i've included a list of pokemon that get these z-moves and what they are here). Nobody seems to think that pumpkaboo or meowth (both relevant LC mons in the past) getting +1 in all stats is broken so it becomes a question of whether its base conversion's effect + the boosts that makes porygon busted (in which case a conversion ban seems like the most plausible answer), or whether its just that porygon is just a flat out better mon than all of the other mons that can get a +1 boost (in which case a porygon ban would be the way to go).
I think it is the combined fact of Conversion effect + boost and Porygon's stats, ability and movepool. Porygon naturally has great stats and turning into an Electric-type makes it no longer weak to any priority and gives it a very usable STAB. Since Porygon is so naturally tanky and Electric has literally one exploitable weakness, it is very difficult to kill a +1 Porygon. You can't even use Prankster Stun Spore/TWave/etc to paralyze it. Adding in Ice Beam coverage and Recover only makes this more difficult. Now throw in the fact that Porygon can potentially get a Download boost as well. The best solution is obviously phazing, but that is only if your phazer doesn't die to a +1/+2 Thunderbolt or Ice Beam or catching Porygon as it sets up, both of which are hard to do.

I honestly don't care if its Conversion or Normalium + Conversion that is banned, the result is the virtually the same for me as a player and I would be happy with it. In my opinion it would be simply more practical to ban the move Conversion (or Normalium + Conversion) than Porygon by itself right now. Porygon is an extremely good mon, but I don't think it was ever broken in the past and I don't see it being broken without Conversion. I don't think that banning moves is a bad thing in terms of policy (even less so for Little Cup, since Sonicboom and Dragon Rage are banned.) I also think the fact that Conversion isn't broken by itself is not an issue here in terms of banning because non-Z conversion would probably never see use on any serious Porygon set. The way I see it, imagine if Z-Ember OHKOed the opponent with 100% accuracy and +19 priority. It would be easier just to ban Ember because the move has no competitive value by itself and I think Conversion is the same (although I do leave this open to argument.)
 
Instead of banning Porygon, which we know isn't broken without Z-Conversion, or Conversion which isn't ban-worthy on its own, couldn't Z-Conversion specifically be banned? In my opinion it would be similar in substance to the ban on Rayquaza that has Dragon Ascent from clicking Mega Evolve in Ubers and it would specifically address the broken aspect. Porygon gets to stick around, and it can still use regular Conversion or hold Normalium if it really wants to. This would also set a precedent for other broken Z-moves that may come into play in the future; if some other Z-move with wider distribution turns out to be broken, having a precedent of banning the Pokemon over the move would be extremely problematic. Finally, Porygon's (the non Z-conversion variants) ability to check so many threats is a major balancing force in the tier, and I think removing it would be more harmful than helpful for the developing meta.

I have less to say about Cutiefly, other than to point out that there is a clear precedent from the standard tiers for the LC council on this issue. Obviously we're not obligated to follow that precedent, but now that we have a QuiverPasser in the tier I think the council should at least consider the ban on passing Speed with other stats, or even specifically Quiver Dance + Baton Pass. It would let us keep as many options as possible; Baton Pass would still be completely viable and a mon that occupies an otherwise-unfilled role in the metagame, namely an offensive Fairy type, gets to stick around.
 

Celestavian

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Instead of banning Porygon, which we know isn't broken without Z-Conversion, or Conversion which isn't ban-worthy on its own, couldn't Z-Conversion specifically be banned? In my opinion it would be similar in substance to the ban on Rayquaza that has Dragon Ascent from clicking Mega Evolve in Ubers and it would specifically address the broken aspect. Porygon gets to stick around, and it can still use regular Conversion or hold Normalium if it really wants to. This would also set a precedent for other broken Z-moves that may come into play in the future; if some other Z-move with wider distribution turns out to be broken, having a precedent of banning the Pokemon over the move would be extremely problematic. Finally, Porygon's (the non Z-conversion variants) ability to check so many threats is a major balancing force in the tier, and I think removing it would be more harmful than helpful for the developing meta.

I have less to say about Cutiefly, other than to point out that there is a clear precedent from the standard tiers for the LC council on this issue. Obviously we're not obligated to follow that precedent, but now that we have a QuiverPasser in the tier I think the council should at least consider the ban on passing Speed with other stats, or even specifically Quiver Dance + Baton Pass. It would let us keep as many options as possible; Baton Pass would still be completely viable and a mon that occupies an otherwise-unfilled role in the metagame, namely an offensive Fairy type, gets to stick around.
That would require a change to the game mechanics on the level of Sleep Clause, in that the user would be prevented by the program from using the broken move rather than by banning it outright. Not only does this make playing LC on cartridge more trust-based, it also goes heavily against Smogon policy to do so. Changes of that magnitude are saved for truly game-breaking scenarios, which Porygon is not. A lack of Sleep Clause would make singles terrible, and allowing Rayquaza to mega evolve in Ubers makes Ubers nearly unplayable. Porygon does not, by any means, make LC right now unplayable, and so just not allowing it to use Z-Conversion would be a mistake.
 
That would require a change to the game mechanics on the level of Sleep Clause, in that the user would be prevented by the program from using the broken move rather than by banning it outright. Not only does this make playing LC on cartridge more trust-based, it also goes heavily against Smogon policy to do so. Changes of that magnitude are saved for truly game-breaking scenarios, which Porygon is not. A lack of Sleep Clause would make singles terrible, and allowing Rayquaza to mega evolve in Ubers makes Ubers nearly unplayable. Porygon does not, by any means, make LC right now unplayable, and so just not allowing it to use Z-Conversion would be a mistake.
Just want to make sure I'm on the right page here - does this imply that, if the decision is made to address the issue at the move level, Z-Conversion couldn't be banned without banning Conversion altogether?
 

Celestavian

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Just want to make sure I'm on the right page here - does this imply that, if the decision is made to address the issue at the move level, Z-Conversion couldn't be banned without banning Conversion altogether?
Yes, you cannot ban "Z-Conversion" because it's not a move that can be removed from a Pokemon's movepool. Conversion itself could, because it's a move you select in team builder, but Z-Conversion appears by itself when you have Conversion on your moveset and a Normalium-Z crystal.

Ramplestilskin , The baton pass clause from the higher tiers is not being considered because Baton Pass itself is not really broken without Cutiefly. Cutiefly is the problem, so we are addressing it directly.
 
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Celestavian im gonna save the walls of text for the actual suspects but:

"The baton pass clause from the higher tiers is not being considered because Baton Pass itself is not really broken without Cutiefly"

is bad because the inverse is also true: cutiefly is not really broken without baton pass. id actually argue it's more likely bp without cutie is broken than bp-less cutie would be. id like to see bp clause
 

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