Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

While I don't play LC, this isn't the best way to look at this. Lets look at a certain emotion ability, Moody! It is broken on every one Pokémon and that's why its banned, if we were to give a Pokémon like Applin, it won't just rise to the top of the metagame due to the fact that it doesn't have the stats to use it itself. LC won't ban an ability if its only breaks one Pokémon like the example of Gorilla Tactics, it wouldn't break a lot of Pokémon, so it was banned instead of its ability.
I don't quite follow your logic, and I don't think you follow mine. The fact is, as it currently stands, even if we took your theoretical and say Applin had Grassy Surge instead of Grookey, suddenly we would have Applin as a Terrain-setting lead, before either eject-packing out or just getting one-shot due to its frailty.

The point that I am trying to make is that whatever happens, we don't have any terrain-setting ability in the tier, and the only options to counter it is Defog, setting a terrain of your own, or letting it last out. If your opposing Grookey has Wood Hammer and Grassy Glide, your counters are limited. Only two Pokémon in the tier have Sap Sipper: Azurill and Goomy, and the two abilities that can stop priority moves, Dazzling and Queenly Majesty, are not available options either.

More than that, Grookey has U-Turn, allowing it to come out, set up the Terrain upon entry, and then switch out while dealing damage. Do I think this is broken Out of context, I would say no. Rillaboom does make it into OU thanks to this set, but again it is all thanks to its Hidden Ability.

I think the biggest issue that needs to be addressed is the team synergy. Thanks to the options listed above, it can set up its teammates, who may also have Grassy Glide, to come in and deal with the enemy as well. Grassy Terrain is a major boon for any team that has it, and the fact that Grookey has a solid moveset to work with is a solid plus.

People are arguing here that Grookey is over-powered, and talking about a Grookey ban. I am saying that Grassy Surge is the specific tool that makes it overpowered, and that THIS should be the specific target of the ban until such another terrain-setting ability makes its way into the tier.

Generation 4 Little Cup was the first time weather came into play, thanks to Snover and Hippopotas. If it wasn't for Psyduck being an option with Cloud Nine, these two large threats would have had full control of the tier. The point I am trying to make with this anecdote (which I am just grabbing from Smogon so my understanding of the situation may be a bit off) is that for certain team formats, such as any weather, there were effective ways of countering them, mainly Cloud Nine and OTHER weathers. Neither of these is something we have here for Grassy Surge.

...sorry, rant over. Hope this clarifies my stance.
 
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Merritt

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I don't quite follow your logic, and I don't think you follow mine. The fact is, as it currently stands, even if we took your theoretical and say Applin had Grassy Surge instead of Grookey, suddenly we would have Applin as a Terrain-setting lead, before either eject-packing out or just getting one-shot due to its frailty.

The point that I am trying to make is that whatever happens, we don't have any terrain-setting ability in the tier, and the only options to counter it is Defog, setting a terrain of your own, or letting it last out. If your opposing Grookey has Wood Hammer and Grassy Glide, your counters are limited. Only two Pokémon in the tier have Sap Sipper: Azurill and Goomy, and the two abilities that can stop priority moves, Dazzling and Queenly Majesty, are not available options either.

More than that, Grookey has U-Turn, allowing it to come out, set up the Terrain upon entry, and then switch out while dealing damage. Do I think this is broken Out of context, I would say no. Rillaboom does make it into OU thanks to this set, but again it is all thanks to its Hidden Ability.

I think the biggest issue that needs to be addressed is the team synergy. Thanks to the options listed above, it can set up its teammates, who may also have Grassy Glide, to come in and deal with the enemy as well. Grassy Terrain is a major boon for any team that has it, and the fact that Grookey has a solid moveset to work with is a solid plus.

People are arguing here that Grookey is over-powered, and talking about a Grookey ban. I am saying that Grassy Surge is the specific tool that makes it overpowered, and that THIS should be the specific target of the ban until such another terrain-setting ability makes its way into the tier.

Generation 4 Little Cup was the first time weather came into play, thanks to Snover and Hippopotas. If it wasn't for Psyduck being an option with Cloud Nine, these two large threats would have had full control of the tier. The point I am trying to make with this anecdote (which I am just grabbing from Smogon so my understanding of the situation may be a bit off) is that for certain team formats, such as any weather, there were effective ways of countering them, mainly Cloud Nine and OTHER weathers. Neither of these is something we have here for Grassy Surge.

...sorry, rant over. Hope this clarifies my stance.
Everything you're talking about here is a reason to ban Grookey specifically rather than Grassy Surge. You're talking about all the specific tools that make Grookey a broken Pokemon (yes yes citation needed) with Grassy Surge, not reasons why Grassy Surge is inherently uncompetitive - what you'd need to argue to have an ability ban rather than a Pokemon ban.

Generally speaking we don't do bans to nerf Pokemon, if a Pokemon is broken then it's the target of a ban not an element of it. This precedent's been set and followed pretty strictly in LC's history and I don't see a good reason to break it for Grookey. While I'm not a member of the council I would be extremely surprised if they decided to act on Grassy Surge instead of Grookey.
 
Everything you're talking about here is a reason to ban Grookey specifically rather than Grassy Surge. You're talking about all the specific tools that make Grookey a broken Pokemon (yes yes citation needed) with Grassy Surge, not reasons why Grassy Surge is inherently uncompetitive - what you'd need to argue to have an ability ban rather than a Pokemon ban.

Generally speaking we don't do bans to nerf Pokemon, if a Pokemon is broken then it's the target of a ban not an element of it. This precedent's been set and followed pretty strictly in LC's history and I don't see a good reason to break it for Grookey. While I'm not a member of the council I would be extremely surprised if they decided to act on Grassy Surge instead of Grookey.
yeah i agree with this because while grassy surge is an incredible ability, i think the reason why grookey is so broken is due to it's phenominal ability to tear through the metagame with priority only losing to fake outs and protect with grassy glide. and even then, it can run protect and fake out it's self as well as swords dance to destroy most nuetral targets and can switch out due to u turn. so i think it would make more sense to ban grookey rather than the ability due to grookey being the only one in lc who it is accesible with, maybe if more pokemon come into lc with grassy surge i could see a ban on grassy surge but for now it would be more sensible to just ban grookey altogether
 
yeah i agree with this because while grassy surge is an incredible ability, i think the reason why grookey is so broken is due to it's phenominal ability to tear through the metagame with priority only losing to fake outs and protect with grassy glide. and even then, it can run protect and fake out it's self as well as swords dance to destroy most nuetral targets and can switch out due to u turn. so i think it would make more sense to ban grookey rather than the ability due to grookey being the only one in lc who it is accesible with, maybe if more pokemon come into lc with grassy surge i could see a ban on grassy surge but for now it would be more sensible to just ban grookey altogether
I don't quite get what U mean. In my opinion, grookey is not a good sweeper or wall breaker. It is vulnerable when switching into foongus and a vullaby would definitely ko it before it could swords dance and cause damage. Besides, if the vullaby is weak armor then fake out has no purpose except to make it a potential sweeper.
 
I don't quite get what U mean. In my opinion, grookey is not a good sweeper or wall breaker. It is vulnerable when switching into foongus and a vullaby would definitely ko it before it could swords dance and cause damage. Besides, if the vullaby is weak armor then fake out has no purpose except to make it a potential sweeper.
it usually has a positive matchup against nuetral resist and fake out is great for stopping other priority and although there are checks for it. porygon,staryu and most rock types cna handle vull, abra 2 hits foon in most cases if foon has evio. porygon and staryu are decently bulky and appreciate the healing from grassy terrain and can check both vull and foon without much issue
 
I know it’s taboo to talk about resuspecting a mon that was voted to stay, but I really think there needs to be another serious discussion about vullaby. This mon has an absolute stranglehold on the tier and no where near in a healthy manner. It’s probably broken simply factoring in all it’s offensive prowess and range of sets but playing around flinches from the np set is just salt in the wound. It’s not like vulla was overwhelmingly voted to stay either, actually having above a 50% vote to ban. I think the meta is in a terrible state and vulla is the biggest part of that. Again, we just had a vote a couple months ago so I get why there would be some hesitation, but if enough people truly believe the meta will be better off without vulla I think that’s reason enough to keep trying. I pushed hard af for missy to be banned in bw against years of resistance but I firmly believe the tier is in a much better state. This isn’t BW, but I think it serves as an example that we should keep pushing towards a better meta despite past tiering decision.
 
I know it’s taboo to talk about resuspecting a mon that was voted to stay, but I really think there needs to be another serious discussion about vullaby. This mon has an absolute stranglehold on the tier and no where near in a healthy manner. It’s probably broken simply factoring in all it’s offensive prowess and range of sets but playing around flinches from the np set is just salt in the wound. It’s not like vulla was overwhelmingly voted to stay either, actually having above a 50% vote to ban. I think the meta is in a terrible state and vulla is the biggest part of that. Again, we just had a vote a couple months ago so I get why there would be some hesitation, but if enough people truly believe the meta will be better off without vulla I think that’s reason enough to keep trying. I pushed hard af for missy to be banned in bw against years of resistance but I firmly believe the tier is in a much better state. This isn’t BW, but I think it serves as an example that we should keep pushing towards a better meta despite past tiering decision.
While I agree with you in the sense that i also think that vullabys still broken and unhealthy i think that for the moment we should wait. It's being a month and a few days since Woobat was banned from the tier. That already changed the metagame for good; sun is arguably better than webs and screens are not that good either. Cheese in general is less good.

That is already progress if you look at the metagame from months ago. So yeah, we are doing things right for the moment. I personally don't want to rash suspecting vulla at this point, right after a ban and while the metagame is developing. This changes in the metagame might end up becoming vullaby in a healthy mon.

Suspecting vullaby is likely to help the metagame, but just because it’s likely doesn’t mean we should make rash decisions. Just think about what happened to scraggy, for example.

Despite of this facts, if we had a vullaby suspect tomorrow, i might vote ban. But maybe in a week i wouldn't or, i would think that we should suspect grookey instead.

If nothing changes in a couple of weeks i will be the first man asking for a vullaby suspect and supporting you.

(oh and by the way, i don't consider that resuspecting a mon that was voted to stay is an issue either).
 

Hey everyone :) Taking a break from the vulla discussion to bring you a cool set I've been playing around with. Togepi looks like a gimmick pick, but it's got a great movepool and usable stats that make it a really cool physical wall and general anti-meta mon that's able to counter the meta's Fighting-types and check its other physical attackers. Here's the set I've been using:

:xy/Togepi:
Togepi @ Eviolite
Ability: Super Luck
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 236 Def / 116 SpA / 36 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Fire Blast
- Thunder Wave
- Soft-Boiled​

Togepi has a bunch of really cool movepool options that set it apart from Spritzee, its main competition as a bulky Fairy-type. The most important of these is access to Fire Blast, which lets it threaten some of its most common answers like Ferroseed, Foongus, and Pawniard with a 2HKO and prevent it from being a huge momentum sink. It also has Thunder Wave, which lets it cripple common switchins and provide speed control. Finally, it has one-turn, one-moveslot recovery in Soft-Boiled, which Spritzee could only dream of having. The EV spread gives it 21/17 physical bulk, which lets it eat powerful neutral attacks (Jolly Vullaby fails to 2HKO with Brave Bird even after rocks), enough special attack to 2HKO Pawniard and Foongus and OHKO Vullaby after rocks, and 9 Speed to outspeed most of the things it checks after paralysis. This set has fantastic defensive synergy with Ferroseed; Togepi beats Fighting-types for Ferro, which in turn beats strong special attackers for Togepi, and both can spread paralysis pretty effectively. It's also a good partner for stuff like Abra and Scarf Porygon which appreciate opposing Ferroseed being pressured by Fire Blast. There are some other options it has like Psychic or Nasty Plot, but I haven't played around with those yet. It's not a world-beater by any means; it's not very strong, its special bulk isn't great, it struggles a lot vs Koffing and Mareanie and can be dead weight in certain matchups, but I believe it has a definite and unique niche.
 
Hey, so this is pretty random, but I need advice on this set


Bergmite @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 204 Atk / 180 SpA / 76 SpD
Brave Nature
- Avalanche
- Blizzard
- Flash Cannon
- Stone Edge
 
Hey, so this is pretty random, but I need advice on this set


Bergmite @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 204 Atk / 180 SpA / 76 SpD
Brave Nature
- Avalanche
- Blizzard
- Flash Cannon
- Stone Edge
For starters, given how commonly used the two premier fighting types are in LC (Timburr and Mienfoo) that already weakens Bergmite’s viability as it must always switch out against either of them - especially with your spread and nature as it will always be outsped and brought to sturdy. Secondly, I’m not sure it would be worth it to run this set as your entire game plan is likely going to be dictated by keeping hazards off the field as those will really render Bergmite useless should they remain up. Surely there are LC teams who need x and y to occur for z to sweep, but with Bergmite specifically, it’s hard to envision any scenario where it A) sweeps or B) breaks. Lastly, say you were to be brought down to Sturdy and the WP pops, given the sheer variety of priority moves and users in LC, its hard to imagine Bergmite will be taking down more than 1 pokemon at max - but those are just three quick points that come to mind.

Just briefly regarding the set itself, i’m not sure you’re entirely optimizing Bergmite’s move pool. I think if you were adamant on running this pokemon, you’d probably want rock polish on it to at least afford it the opportunity to outspeed and potentially KO something, should you force out a Vullaby (which given the scenario, it may not even do that since knock off does 45-60). Secondly, I don’t think Stone Edge is useful here as what does it even cover that Bergmite’s stab doesn’t? I suppose Pony/Pix teams if you really want to get technical, but if Bergmite is your response to those pokemon, I fear you’ve already lost. You’d almost be better off running rock smash to cover a potential pawniard switch - again just quick thoughts.

In the end I think you’d have something like (and this is not even considering an item change) WP - RP/Gyro Ball/Icicle Spear or Ice Fang/Rock Smash to at least give it an outward chance to do something. Probably want to pair it with a trapper to remove some of the more hard walls such as Mareanie and even Ferroseed. All in all, if you are so inclined to use ice types - a hail team is likely to be your best bet.

Hope this helps!
 
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ok the thrust of this one is that we should suspect test porygon. there are three main points as to why, all of which blend together and combine. they are:

I. IT IS EXTREMELY POWERFUL
Out of the gate I'm in a weird rhetorical spot because the most important part of my post requires the least elaboration. Porygon hits very hard and has great bulk. For its scarf set, the most-common and best one it runs, its stats and features are almost purpose-designed. 14 speed outruns every unboosted pokemon in the tier, 18 SpA is boosted by download in most situations, and 14 def drops from 18 to 14 the main roll for 18 iron fist timburr mach. its movepool means it can hit super effectively most pokemon in the tier, but it usually only requires tri-attack to take huge bites out of an opponent's team.
Its other sets deserve attention as well. while agility is less spamable, it remains a potent threat that pick up a dl boost and then set up speed on common mons throughout the tier. and specially defensive trace sets, while less immediately threatening, can work as the linchpin of two-trapper-weak teams with its ability to remove digletts and trapinches as well as eat strong attacks with near-unmatched ease.

II. IT FORCES A LIMITED SET OF COUNTERS
This one should be obvious too. In order to be even decently secure against porygon you need to have one of a select set of checks. Ferroseed, Pawniard, and Frillish are the best ones, and despite their specific vulnerabilities against certain pory sequences you're pretty much required to bring one of the three to have a viable team. But this creates problems down the team chain. Rocks Pawniard teams can be easily overloaded with Vullaby + Pory, and NP vulla sets are devastating on their own. ferro teams are weak to both vullaby as well as fire type + trapper squads. and if you add an onix you simply slide the issue back to your fighting check, because Onix + Steel teams are food for foo and Timburr etc. this creates a stale metagame as well as one defined by specific matchup picks and counterpicks defined by different pory checks.

III. IT INTRODUCES VARIANCE / HAX / WHATEVER
(this one has two subsections)
a. this one is less common / intuitive, but i will start with it because it flows more naturally from the previous point: Porygon creates "hidden 50/50s" based on the specific nature of its checks. Basically, its checks and soft checks are burdened in teambuilding by the need to set stealth rocks. But porygon hits so hard that taking a free turn to do this might result in a pory stay and reattack leaving the check useless for the rest of the game. this can happen with ice beam on ferroseed or tri attack on onix or pawn. and if you attack immediately, you often end up on the back foot against a pokemon that has taken little damage and is now forcing out a vital defensive pokemon. now, this requires risk from the porygon user as well, but this interaction is one of the harder-to-spot edges pory generates in the course of an actual game.
b. and this is the obvious one: tri attack is a demonic move. it can just fuck you immediately with one of the elemental statuses. seeing your ferroseed get frozen is a near-immediate fist through the monitor situation. if you are in the mood to kill yourself, its other moves also have gamebreaking effects. ice beam, thunderbolt, psychic blah blah.

so you get it. ban the duck.
 
II. IT FORCES A LIMITED SET OF COUNTERS
This one should be obvious too. In order to be even decently secure against porygon you need to have one of a select set of checks. Ferroseed, Pawniard, and Frillish are the best ones, and despite their specific vulnerabilities against certain pory sequences you're pretty much required to bring one of the three to have a viable team. But this creates problems down the team chain. Rocks Pawniard teams can be easily overloaded with Vullaby + Pory, and NP vulla sets are devastating on their own. ferro teams are weak to both vullaby as well as fire type + trapper squads. and if you add an onix you simply slide the issue back to your fighting check, because Onix + Steel teams are food for foo and Timburr etc. this creates a stale metagame as well as one defined by specific matchup picks and counterpicks defined by different pory checks.
I would like to add that off of its monstruous boosted Special Attack, Porygon has the way to hit all three. Thunderbolt 2HKOes Pawniard and Frillish with ease (unless Cursed Body activates) which mandates the use of a ground type trapper to deter Pory clicking that move (even then having the Thunderbolt chip on Pawniard helps). Ferroseed is 3HKOed by Ice Beam most of the times too, and it can be lured easily by Fire Punch Abra, another teammate I've seen run with Porygon, or just trapped or weakened by Trapinch (Pawniard suffers from this too). Being able to actually weaken Porygon's counters in a trade that favours the Porygon user greatly is to be considered when tackling the obvious issue of Porygon in the tier.

The amount of other Pokémon that can somewhat viably check Porygon is scarce. The most viable one might be Berry Juice Magnemite, which resists all the moves Pory can throw at it but is nonetheless 2HKOed by Porygon's moves anyway, keeping it on constant pressure to Recycle while the Porygon is fishing for a status (I actually tried running a Thunder Wave set on one team for that reason) or simply switching away and taking the most out of the free momentum provided. It is also pretty weak to Knock Off, which most 16 and 17 Speed Pokémon pack, and priority from Timburr and Ground moves always hurt it. Keeping Rocks off the field is also a somewhat arduous task in LC. I've also been pretty interested in Bronzor which takes 0 from anything Porygon throws at it but Thunderbolt (which can be Berry Juice-recycled off), also checks Abra well and can't be trapped, but this Pokémon lacks the offensive prowess to punish its common switchins if it wants to run Rocks + both STABs and is actually unviable. Honedge is a bit comparable to Bronzor only worse because it is pretty much Pawniard without the recovery and role compression. When Pokémon such as Bronzor or Honedge begin to be considered to check Porygon (I think Sciroccoo played Bronzor in Majors), that's a clear indication that nothing is well anymore.


b. and this is the obvious one: tri attack is a demonic move. it can just fuck you immediately with one of the elemental statuses. seeing your ferroseed get frozen is a near-immediate fist through the monitor situation. if you are in the mood to kill yourself, its other moves also have gamebreaking effects. ice beam, thunderbolt, psychic blah blah.
That one kind of reminds me of the Wingull problem we faced a generation ago in USUM LC, only now the Pokémon firing those attacks can't miss and has consistent high Special Attack and therefore consistently hard-hitting moves. Also the Pokémon is even harder to revenge kill offensively and can run different sets. They had a similarly narrow pool of checks (of which some Pokémon that were otherwise pretty bad such as Tirtouga for Wingull) that could be invalidated by haxx induced by the moves, the speed to outspeed most of the tier (all of the tier but common scarfers in Porygon's case). I do not see a world where Porygon isn't unhealthy or broken, taking that into assumption on top of what has already been said.

Please suspect Porygon or even ban it, that thing is clearly too much.
 
Honestly I've barely played much LC lately but I played an LC Ubers roomtour this morning and despite having scyther and sneasel vs some regular LC teams because some knuckleheads brought it I was put into tough situations by porygon more than anything else. The fact that it can comfortably keep up with sneasel and scyther is kinda a yikes. It's stronger than vull and always has been. Thats suspect worthy for me.
 
while i think all the points Shrug makes are true, i think there are two notable points acting against Porygon that make it less blatantly broken (although still, perhaps, worthy of a suspect).

1) it struggles to get in safely
Scarf Porygon struggles to find switch-in opportunities; neutral attacks such as Foongus' Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb or even something like a Koffing non-stab Fire Blast/TBolt still do a significant amount of damage, particularly since it usually needs to use Psychic to KO these Pokemon (but often would rather lock into Tri Attack for the purpose of general breaking). the most effective way I've found to bring it in is double-switching it into Onix, which allows you to be extremely threatening to many teams with your +1 Ice Beam; however, this requires skill to pull off, and even then you may be required to predict if your opponent has an Ice resist with recovery, such as Frillish or Staryu, in back.

some may ask why Porygon taking chip on the switch in is concerning; if I take 50% from Koffing's Fire Blast + SR in return for a KO, I'm in a great position, right? well, this leads into my second point:

2) priority almost always prevents it from sweeping
This tier has many excellent priority users that fit on all teams; Fake Out Mienfoo, Mach Punch Timburr, Sucker Punch Pawniard, Grassy Glide Grookey (which sometimes runs Fake Out too), FI Trapinch, and Sucker Punch Diglett are all examples. even despite outspeeding the entire unboosted metagame, teams with one of more of these priority users often have a way to hold Porygon at bay, particularly if it switched into an attack earlier in the battle (which, as i've said, it often wants to do in order to collect a kill). Hazards also contribute to this; keeping Porygon healthy enough to take Mienfoo's Fake Out more than once is always challenging, but particularly with a SR/Spike up.

I personally find Porygon strong but still challenging to use versus prepared teams, and even teams that don't have a Normal resist (which is bad btw! dont do this!) can often force the Porygon user to win 50-50s around their priority users or force the Porygon user to play conservatively in order to keep it healthy enough to not get picked off by said priority. I would definitely be open to a suspect but am not sure if I would vote to ban.


===
let's test vullaby again! that mon makes building in this tier extremely constricted, has multiple top tier sets, and its counters are less resilient to it than porygon's are. also, if tri attack hax is a justification for pory suspect, we for sure need to remember that np vullaby is the patron saint of bullshit endgames
 
Honestly I've barely played much LC lately but I played an LC Ubers roomtour this morning and despite having scyther and sneasel vs some regular LC teams because some knuckleheads brought it I was put into tough situations by porygon more than anything else. The fact that it can comfortably keep up with sneasel and scyther is kinda a yikes. It's stronger than vull and always has been. Thats suspect worthy for me.
Sandhsrew Alola is very good in Ubers so we should suspect it too.

On the more serious side, in my opinion, Vullaby was and is broken and we should have banned it, but since we didn’t, we should do it now. It is an incredibly restricting Pokémon, only having 2 reliable checks that are very prone to still lose to it, be it by trapping, by coverage like Heat Wave for Pawn or by them having to check more mons and thus being worn down easily. Its ability to pressure every team is enormous, and it is (almost) mandatory on every team. You could justify its existance in the tier because it can act as a check to literally everything, but I don’t think that makes up for the fact that it warps the metagame so much to the point of having to run one of two Pokémon, that don’t necessarily will be able to check it, in order to not almost just lose to it. It warps teambuilding so much, and while I agree Porygon is dumb, freeing the tier from the emo bird’s terror would be much more helpful and could change entirely LC’s landscape
 
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1) it struggles to get in safely
Scarf Porygon struggles to find switch-in opportunities; neutral attacks such as Foongus' Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb or even something like a Koffing non-stab Fire Blast/TBolt still do a significant amount of damage, particularly since it usually needs to use Psychic to KO these Pokemon (but often would rather lock into Tri Attack for the purpose of general breaking). the most effective way I've found to bring it in is double-switching it into Onix, which allows you to be extremely threatening to many teams with your +1 Ice Beam; however, this requires skill to pull off, and even then you may be required to predict if your opponent has an Ice resist with recovery, such as Frillish or Staryu, in back.
In a tier as filled with U-turn users as now, that is mitigated by a lot. I am even surprised that as a LC player you don't mention VoltTurn as a way to bring Porygon in safely. This changes a lot of things since Pokémon such as Mareanie or Foongus that Mienfoo U-turns on and Pokémon such as Onix that Vullaby U-turns on as well all give Porygon a Special Attack boost. As such it is actually quite easy to bring Porygon in over the course of a game. I didn't even mention how Porygon could use the sacrifice of one of its teammates that already got its work done to get a free in and Special Attack boost. To prevent Porygon from abusing this, you might actually have to play very carefully which, since Porygon is oftentimes paired with another threat, can spell dismay in the long run too. Another example of counterplay to this that I have considered with the help of Lokifan (maybe others considered it as well) is to run more Special Defense on Vullaby. But even then there are very little Pokémon on which you can afford to run an extra point in Special Defense, especially since the aforementioned Vullaby I use uses 25/16 SpDef which has no notable changes compared to 25/15.


2) priority almost always prevents it from sweeping
This tier has many excellent priority users that fit on all teams; Fake Out Mienfoo, Mach Punch Timburr, Sucker Punch Pawniard, Grassy Glide Grookey (which sometimes runs Fake Out too), FI Trapinch, and Sucker Punch Diglett are all examples. even despite outspeeding the entire unboosted metagame, teams with one of more of these priority users often have a way to hold Porygon at bay, particularly if it switched into an attack earlier in the battle (which, as i've said, it often wants to do in order to collect a kill). Hazards also contribute to this; keeping Porygon healthy enough to take Mienfoo's Fake Out more than once is always challenging, but particularly with a SR/Spike up.
The problem with this one is that Sucker Punch Pawniard can get trapped or put out of the game quite easily by Trapinch, Diglett or Vullaby. Grookey similarly doesn't fare well against Trapinch if it doesn't pack Protect (which is quite the opportunity cost of another coverage move although very usable). This can somewhat invalidate two of the priority users that you mention over the course of a game, especially since Pawniard is pretty easy to dispatch of for Porygon teams. Porygon also is remotely bulky, which means it can actually tank one of the priority moves if need be, even Mach Punch from Timburr. This is a problem made even worse for Mienfoo considering it has to use Fake Out multiple times to take out Porygon, which means a teammate is sacrificed each time. And that's not even considering bulkier sets of Porygon such as Agility that are able to withstand non-super effective priority quite easily and actually recover the damage off. As such I wouldn't consider priority actual sufficient counterplay against Porygon, especially since these priority attacks can also be eaten by a resist (or outright absorbed by a switch out on Sucker Punch's case, essentially creating a free turn for the opponent) or give a Speed boost to Vullaby which can prove detrimental. Porygon is already strong on its own, but we need to remember that a team is behind it. It can just switch out and remain a destructive force in the back that can be brought in further times considering the point about U-turn made above.
 
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Sandhsrew Alola is very good in Ubers so we should suspect it too
My point was it was hanging with scyther and sneasal and cors g with no sweat purely off of BST + eviolite + download. Shrew A is useful because of typing letting it be a somewhat risky check that can get bopped by fighting moves. I don't need to repeat arguments that have already been made for pory ban, so I may as well share a bit of perspective I noticed this morning that give a good indication of it's power level and where it sits.
 
My point was it was hanging with scyther and sneasal and cors g with no sweat purely off of BST + eviolite + download. Shrew A is useful because of typing letting it be a somewhat risky check that can get bopped by fighting moves. I don't need to repeat arguments that have already been made for pory ban, so I may as well share a bit of perspective I noticed this morning that give a good indication of it's power level and where it sits.
I respect you trying to make your point of "it can even be toe-to-toe in terms of power with LC Ubers", but I would like to say that you should remember LC Ubers is not LC by any means. If anything, Porygon might be even more effective in LC Ubers considering the sheer strength of Scyther and Sneasel (especially the latter) which could freely weaken Steel-types. That still doesn't make a point in that situation because Pokémon that are viable in LC could be unviable in LC Ubers, and inversely (I have noticed a LC Ubers Sample Team running Hatenna on it). The point is they are fundamentally different tiers, so we should not talk about the LC Ubers tier while tackling the Porygon issue in LC.
 

Corporal Levi

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I agree that Porygon is potentially problematic in the current metagame, but I don't think suspecting it addresses the root cause of the issue.

I'm going to be drawing comparisons to Agility/Choice Scarf Porygon in XY because this was the last metagame where Porygon was allowed. I'll only be referring to some broader / more obvious trends, so hopefully this isn't an issue.

---

The first thing to establish is that in XY, Porygon's dedicated offensive sets - Agility and Choice Scarf - had been explored and established, but repeatedly failed to gain serious popularity throughout the generation. From a set vr perspective, Agility Porygon was seen as a C+ or B- set, and Scarf Porygon was more along the lines of C- or C. Let alone suspect-worthy or top tier, these sets were not even considered good - they were barely on the cusp of viability.

Now, if we were to create a modern SS set vr, we would probably see something like Agility Porygon in A or A+, and Scarf Porygon in A+ or S-. They both rank among the most threatening sets in the metagame; Scarf Porygon in particular has risen from Mankey tier to Mienfoo tier. (As always, a vr isn't an argument for or against a ban on its own; I'm just using it to illustrate the sheer degree to which the offensive Porygon sets have improved.)

However, all the tools to deal with Porygon that existed in XY still exist now. In fact, Porygon itself actually lost a helpful move in Hidden Power while mechanically gaining nothing. So what changed? A lot of things, of course. These things can overall be summarized as a shift to a highly physical-centric metagame - that is, the metagame strongly leans toward investing in Attack / Defense, and generally neglects Special Attack / Special Defense.

The most immediate way this shift has helped offensive Porygon is that it's naturally stronger - Porygon struggles much more to OHKO and 2HKO threats in a metagame where mons can afford to invest in SpD. Back in XY, sets like 14 SpD Timburr and Mienfoo were standard, and defensive sets like (sp)defensive Spritzee, Eviolite Vullaby, and Trace Porygon were common too. A set like Scarf Porygon could only 2HKO or 3HKO these sets. Meanwhile, Porygon's lack of resistances meant that without Eviolite, it would have very few switchin opportunities. Between a lack of sweeping potential due to low damage and very limited switchin opportunities, offensive Porygon sets just weren't usually worth it.

Porygon also gains a second benefit from the physical metagame, which is that Download is much more reliable. Back in XY, most teams could easily afford at least 2 mons that could deny the SpA boost, which meant that denying Download was a frequent counterplay opportunity against Porygon. On the other hand, in the current gen, it's not uncommon for all 6 mons on a team to provide the SpA Download boost. Without Download, Porygon hardly has the power to sweep - its Tri Attack is as strong as Pawniard's Iron Head.

The unreliability of Download was why bulkier Porygon variants were so much more popular in XY, as they could provide consistent defensive value instead. The defensive sets - bulky Trace and bulky Download - were what Porygon was S-ranked by in XY. As a defensive mon, these sets don't really benefit from the shift to a physical metagame. In fact, the generally fast-paced metagame means that they have outright gotten worse.

This is why Porygon itself has remained around equally viable from XY to SS, even though its offensive sets have leapt from being barely viable to potentially suspect-worthy. I would like to establish now that the remainder of the post solely discusses offensive Porygon - defensive Porygon simply doesn't provide a relevant enough boost to Porygon's viability as a whole to be worth mentioning in a suspect discussion.

---

Let's break down the shift to a more physical metagame from XY to SS a bit further.

We can attribute this overall physical shift to three major trends, each of which greatly pushes the metagame to favour the physical spectrum. If you take away any of these three trends, and make investing into special bulk viable again, then offensive Porygon would suffer accordingly. And remember, there is a LOT of room for offensive Porygon to suffer, seeing how its offensive sets went from hovering C/C+ in XY to hovering A+/S in SS. Porygon certainly isn't Misdreavus or Gligar-tier broken; I'm confident that taking away even one of these trends would reduce Porygon to something that is completely reasonable.

1. Mechanical differences.

This covers the actual mechanical changes to the LC tier from XY to SS. The most notable of these is, of course, the loss of Hidden Power. This made the entire special spectrum weaker; mons like Abra and Magnemite were badly nerfed by the loss of valuable coverage moves, and the metagame adjusted accordingly to their lowered threat level. The important thing to note here is that some special mons were more badly hurt than others. Mons like offensive Porygon, Vullaby, and Gastly did use Hidden Power, but weren't actually very reliant on it for coverage; so when the metagame shifted away from special attackers as a whole, these mons actually improved overall, in a metagame that was now less prepared for them, to become even more threatening than before.

When I discussed this with dcae, he brought up another indirect mechanical difference: the loss of both Hidden Power and Pursuit, coupled with the reduced Knock Off availability at the time, was enough to push Gastly to a ban. While Agility Porygon doesn't care for this one way or another, Scarf Porygon greatly appreciates being able to spam Tri Attack more consistently. This helps to explain why Scarf Porygon is arguably the more threatening set now despite Agility Porygon being seen as a bit more justifiable in XY.

This is probably the most important piece of why offensive Porygon has improved so much. If we simply shifted the metagame back to its XY appearance, then the mechanical differences alone would likely be enough to prop Agility and Choice Scarf Porygon up to B+ or even A-. Of course, we can't simply revert mechanical differences, so offensive Porygon being at least a B+/A- threat is just something that we should accept in the SS metagame.

2. Vullaby.

The second trend is also very important, which is the introduction of an extremely prominent physical (or primarily physical, in the case of mixed sets) wall-breaker that makes its way onto about 70% of teams: Weak Armor Vullaby. The bulky Fighting-type archetype has historically been the most prominent group of the physical spectrum since BW, and physical Vullaby alone provides a nearly comparable presence. This ensures that investing in physical bulk is almost always more important than investing in special bulk when both options are available.

Vullaby doesn't just push the metagame to be physically leaning, however. Vullaby as a whole - physical, mixed, and special - simultaneously ranks among both the most effective wall-breakers and most threatening sweepers that LC has ever seen. This makes defensive archetypes much more difficult to build and justify, meaning Vullaby single-handedly pushes the metagame in a noticeably more offensive direction. This is something else that offensive Porygon greatly enjoys.

3. Grookey.

To start with, I do not think Grookey is broken right now. Nearly every typical team includes a Vullaby and a bulky Poison-type by default. If the team has just one or two more mons that can live a Grookey OHKO, then we're consistently reaching nearly XY Fletchling levels of preparedness, even though on paper Grookey should be much more difficult to prep for.

It's in this sort of metagame that Porygon thrives. It can badly threaten Grookey checks with its coverage moves, and loves that the generic EV spread is more likely to lean toward physical bulk to improve Grookey rolls. Like most other top tier mons, it's used around a third as much as Vullaby, but with its access to strong priority, it probably forces physical trends more along the lines of half of Vullaby or the bulky Fighting archetype.

On the other hand, if we suddenly reverted to XY trends, with Fairy-types as the primary Fighting-type answer and everything running 14 SpD, then offensive Porygon would fall back into near-total obscurity. However, Grookey would basically be doing what it did when Life Orb first gained popularity except even stronger - it would be pretty ridiculous.

In other words, I see Grookey and Porygon as a bit of a seesaw, where as long as both mons are in the metagame, then if the metagame is sufficiently prepared for one of the two, then the other is sure to be quite strong.

With that being said, if we see Grookey and Porygon as equally weighted, comparable threats, then it makes more sense to focus on the mon that's currently the issue, which is Porygon.

---

So that leaves Vullaby.

The Vullaby suspect happened a few iterations of the metagame ago, and at the time, I argued that Vullaby was banworthy on its own merits. However, the rise of Porygon has brought to light another angle with which to approach Vullaby from: it is also incredibly efficient at overloading its teammate's checks.

Remember, this isn't a mon that just chip its answers, it flat out 1v1s them and wins. A typical typespam overloading core, such as fightspam, simply looks to weaken shared checks until they can't switch in anymore. Some glass cannon overloading cores, like gastbra, are able to outright KO their checks on a correctly predicted switch. Vullaby goes well beyond this; it 1v1s its most common answer, Pawniard, and comfortably wins. This is of course fantastic for Vullaby's own sweeping potential, but it is also equally effective at setting up a sweep with a teammate like Porygon.

This isn't just limited to Pawniard. To begin with, Porygon's switch-ins are as few as its switch-in opportunities - it doesn't have much of either - but once Vullaby is through, its switch-ins are reduced to zero, and even its revenge-killers become limited in scope. Pawniard, Ferroseed, defensive mons, you name it; if it exists, Vullaby alone is sufficient to bring it into Porygon range.

So not only has Vullaby's presence established significant trends that severely push the metagame to be both more physically leaning and less defensive, to the benefit of offensive Porygon, but it is also among offensive Porygon's most valuable immediate teammates.


In short, all roads lead to the mon with 85% usage.
 

KSG

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We've had some good posts here recently, so I thought I'd hop in and share my thoughts on the state of the metagame. I think shrug and levi get a lot of stuff right (new podcast ep soon?) but I want to synthesize some ideas and talk about the most problematic mons in the tier right now: Vullaby, Porygon, and, to a lesser extent, Abra.

Anybody who has played the tier recently knows that the Pory-Abra stack is all the rage. It's easy to see why: these two big hitters share a short list of checks, namely Steel-types like Pawniard and Ferroseed, that struggle to maintain their health against repeated chip and knock spam. Scarf Porygon is THE Porygon set right now and is perhaps the preeminent purely offensive threat in the tier - Download-boosted Tri Attack and Ice Beam are extremely easy to spam and blow through teams, and with Thunderbolt you can basically invalidate Pawniard as a check after the first switch-in. Agility Porygon is less common and requires more team support, namely Trapinch in most cases, though Berry Juice variants are a bit of an exception. Eviolite Agility Porygon with Recover can 1v1 Pawniard, which is supposed to be a check! I'm not interested in making comparisons to ORAS (snore) which levi has already covered quite well, but he's right to say that the emphasis on hitting Defense numbers over all else, generally for Vullaby, is giving Porygon an advantage - not only can Porygon quite easily boost its SpA, but after some knocks, most of the bulky mons in the tier - Mienfoo, Timburr, regen poisons - crumple. In a vacuum I would vote to ban Porygon from our current tier because its defensive counterplay, even with the emergence of Frillish and Sturdy Magnemite, is just too limited.

Abra is a bit difficult to evaluate right now. Life Orb Abra is extremely volatile from matchup to matchup, as oftentimes it's forced into hiding by opposing trappers or menaced by Grookey teams. Against the common teams without any of these three mons, Abra will basically pick every time it comes in without some clever pivoting like baiting Fire Punch into Weak Armor Vullaby. This is especially pronounced vs Onix teams, as Ferro dies to Fire Punch after only a bit of chip (one Psychic and rocks, give or take), and Abra basically bulldozes this team comp. Abra definitely benefits from the strength of Porygon and Vullaby as both will wear down opposing Pawniard to the point where it drops to Life Orb Dazzling Gleam, and it can even kill Steel-types (often the only Pory answer) for Porygon. LO Abra is so devilishly strong that it can blast through 17 SpD Frillish after rocks, provided Psychic doesn't trigger Cursed Body on the switch. All that said, because Abra is either a wilting violet or a destroyer of worlds depending on what you see on preview, it's tough for me to say what, if anything, we should do about it. Losing Hidden Power certainly hurts, but I think the loss of Pursuit nearly balances that out, at least for mixed sets.

That leaves us with the chicken in the room. I voted DNB on Vullaby when we suspected it a few months ago, which I believed was the correct stance at the time - there are ways to play around Vullaby's offensive presence, often with Vullaby itself. However, in light of the rise of Abra-Pory, I no longer believe that Vullaby's effect on team structure is healthy or manageable. Vullaby more or less necessitates one of Onix or Pawniard, and running the former means conceding huge weaknesses to Abra and Porygon. Pawniard can technically check Vullaby and is often enough to slow it down on its own, but Pawniard is a glue mon that has to check a lot of threats at once, namely Abra and Pory, and often can't even switch into Vullaby because eating the chip and losing Eviolite badly compromises its main role in the match. This is an absurd defensive compromise to make to the point where the most common Vull switch-in for Pawniard teams is Vull itself. I do not believe it is reasonable that one of the 85% usage mon's two alleged checks cannot check it in half of its games without losing badly to something else. Another smaller point: Vullaby, which is nearly mandatory due to its tremendous power and utility, loses to both Abra and Pory, meaning a meta without Vull might allow teams to fill its absence with something that better handles these threats.

I realize that the start of LCPL makes this awkward, but we really ought to suspect something soon as the tier is wildly unbalanced. I think a Vullaby retest is the correct move but given the recency of the last one I understand that this might not pass muster with the Smogon big-wigs. No matter the timing, I suspect we will be revisiting this mon. If that option isn't feasible, in the meantime we should consider a Porygon suspect - in the current environment, the mon is simply too powerful and too difficult to check to be healthy.
 


I agree that Porygon is potentially problematic in the current metagame, but I don't think suspecting it addresses the root cause of the issue.

I'm going to be drawing comparisons to Agility/Choice Scarf Porygon in XY because this was the last metagame where Porygon was allowed. I'll only be referring to some broader / more obvious trends, so hopefully this isn't an issue.

---

The first thing to establish is that in XY, Porygon's dedicated offensive sets - Agility and Choice Scarf - had been explored and established, but repeatedly failed to gain serious popularity throughout the generation. From a set vr perspective, Agility Porygon was seen as a C+ or B- set, and Scarf Porygon was more along the lines of C- or C. Let alone suspect-worthy or top tier, these sets were not even considered good - they were barely on the cusp of viability.

Now, if we were to create a modern SS set vr, we would probably see something like Agility Porygon in A or A+, and Scarf Porygon in A+ or S-. They both rank among the most threatening sets in the metagame; Scarf Porygon in particular has risen from Mankey tier to Mienfoo tier. (As always, a vr isn't an argument for or against a ban on its own; I'm just using it to illustrate the sheer degree to which the offensive Porygon sets have improved.)

However, all the tools to deal with Porygon that existed in XY still exist now. In fact, Porygon itself actually lost a helpful move in Hidden Power while mechanically gaining nothing. So what changed? A lot of things, of course. These things can overall be summarized as a shift to a highly physical-centric metagame - that is, the metagame strongly leans toward investing in Attack / Defense, and generally neglects Special Attack / Special Defense.

The most immediate way this shift has helped offensive Porygon is that it's naturally stronger - Porygon struggles much more to OHKO and 2HKO threats in a metagame where mons can afford to invest in SpD. Back in XY, sets like 14 SpD Timburr and Mienfoo were standard, and defensive sets like (sp)defensive Spritzee, Eviolite Vullaby, and Trace Porygon were common too. A set like Scarf Porygon could only 2HKO or 3HKO these sets. Meanwhile, Porygon's lack of resistances meant that without Eviolite, it would have very few switchin opportunities. Between a lack of sweeping potential due to low damage and very limited switchin opportunities, offensive Porygon sets just weren't usually worth it.

Porygon also gains a second benefit from the physical metagame, which is that Download is much more reliable. Back in XY, most teams could easily afford at least 2 mons that could deny the SpA boost, which meant that denying Download was a frequent counterplay opportunity against Porygon. On the other hand, in the current gen, it's not uncommon for all 6 mons on a team to provide the SpA Download boost. Without Download, Porygon hardly has the power to sweep - its Tri Attack is as strong as Pawniard's Iron Head.

The unreliability of Download was why bulkier Porygon variants were so much more popular in XY, as they could provide consistent defensive value instead. The defensive sets - bulky Trace and bulky Download - were what Porygon was S-ranked by in XY. As a defensive mon, these sets don't really benefit from the shift to a physical metagame. In fact, the generally fast-paced metagame means that they have outright gotten worse.

This is why Porygon itself has remained around equally viable from XY to SS, even though its offensive sets have leapt from being barely viable to potentially suspect-worthy. I would like to establish now that the remainder of the post solely discusses offensive Porygon - defensive Porygon simply doesn't provide a relevant enough boost to Porygon's viability as a whole to be worth mentioning in a suspect discussion.

---

Let's break down the shift to a more physical metagame from XY to SS a bit further.

We can attribute this overall physical shift to three major trends, each of which greatly pushes the metagame to favour the physical spectrum. If you take away any of these three trends, and make investing into special bulk viable again, then offensive Porygon would suffer accordingly. And remember, there is a LOT of room for offensive Porygon to suffer, seeing how its offensive sets went from hovering C/C+ in XY to hovering A+/S in SS. Porygon certainly isn't Misdreavus or Gligar-tier broken; I'm confident that taking away even one of these trends would reduce Porygon to something that is completely reasonable.

1. Mechanical differences.

This covers the actual mechanical changes to the LC tier from XY to SS. The most notable of these is, of course, the loss of Hidden Power. This made the entire special spectrum weaker; mons like Abra and Magnemite were badly nerfed by the loss of valuable coverage moves, and the metagame adjusted accordingly to their lowered threat level. The important thing to note here is that some special mons were more badly hurt than others. Mons like offensive Porygon, Vullaby, and Gastly did use Hidden Power, but weren't actually very reliant on it for coverage; so when the metagame shifted away from special attackers as a whole, these mons actually improved overall, in a metagame that was now less prepared for them, to become even more threatening than before.

When I discussed this with dcae, he brought up another indirect mechanical difference: the loss of both Hidden Power and Pursuit, coupled with the reduced Knock Off availability at the time, was enough to push Gastly to a ban. While Agility Porygon doesn't care for this one way or another, Scarf Porygon greatly appreciates being able to spam Tri Attack more consistently. This helps to explain why Scarf Porygon is arguably the more threatening set now despite Agility Porygon being seen as a bit more justifiable in XY.

This is probably the most important piece of why offensive Porygon has improved so much. If we simply shifted the metagame back to its XY appearance, then the mechanical differences alone would likely be enough to prop Agility and Choice Scarf Porygon up to B+ or even A-. Of course, we can't simply revert mechanical differences, so offensive Porygon being at least a B+/A- threat is just something that we should accept in the SS metagame.

2. Vullaby.

The second trend is also very important, which is the introduction of an extremely prominent physical (or primarily physical, in the case of mixed sets) wall-breaker that makes its way onto about 70% of teams: Weak Armor Vullaby. The bulky Fighting-type archetype has historically been the most prominent group of the physical spectrum since BW, and physical Vullaby alone provides a nearly comparable presence. This ensures that investing in physical bulk is almost always more important than investing in special bulk when both options are available.

Vullaby doesn't just push the metagame to be physically leaning, however. Vullaby as a whole - physical, mixed, and special - simultaneously ranks among both the most effective wall-breakers and most threatening sweepers that LC has ever seen. This makes defensive archetypes much more difficult to build and justify, meaning Vullaby single-handedly pushes the metagame in a noticeably more offensive direction. This is something else that offensive Porygon greatly enjoys.

3. Grookey.

To start with, I do not think Grookey is broken right now. Nearly every typical team includes a Vullaby and a bulky Poison-type by default. If the team has just one or two more mons that can live a Grookey OHKO, then we're consistently reaching nearly XY Fletchling levels of preparedness, even though on paper Grookey should be much more difficult to prep for.

It's in this sort of metagame that Porygon thrives. It can badly threaten Grookey checks with its coverage moves, and loves that the generic EV spread is more likely to lean toward physical bulk to improve Grookey rolls. Like most other top tier mons, it's used around a third as much as Vullaby, but with its access to strong priority, it probably forces physical trends more along the lines of half of Vullaby or the bulky Fighting archetype.

On the other hand, if we suddenly reverted to XY trends, with Fairy-types as the primary Fighting-type answer and everything running 14 SpD, then offensive Porygon would fall back into near-total obscurity. However, Grookey would basically be doing what it did when Life Orb first gained popularity except even stronger - it would be pretty ridiculous.

In other words, I see Grookey and Porygon as a bit of a seesaw, where as long as both mons are in the metagame, then if the metagame is sufficiently prepared for one of the two, then the other is sure to be quite strong.

With that being said, if we see Grookey and Porygon as equally weighted, comparable threats, then it makes more sense to focus on the mon that's currently the issue, which is Porygon.

---

So that leaves Vullaby.

The Vullaby suspect happened a few iterations of the metagame ago, and at the time, I argued that Vullaby was banworthy on its own merits. However, the rise of Porygon has brought to light another angle with which to approach Vullaby from: it is also incredibly efficient at overloading its teammate's checks.

Remember, this isn't a mon that just chip its answers, it flat out 1v1s them and wins. A typical typespam overloading core, such as fightspam, simply looks to weaken shared checks until they can't switch in anymore. Some glass cannon overloading cores, like gastbra, are able to outright KO their checks on a correctly predicted switch. Vullaby goes well beyond this; it 1v1s its most common answer, Pawniard, and comfortably wins. This is of course fantastic for Vullaby's own sweeping potential, but it is also equally effective at setting up a sweep with a teammate like Porygon.

This isn't just limited to Pawniard. To begin with, Porygon's switch-ins are as few as its switch-in opportunities - it doesn't have much of either - but once Vullaby is through, its switch-ins are reduced to zero, and even its revenge-killers become limited in scope. Pawniard, Ferroseed, defensive mons, you name it; if it exists, Vullaby alone is sufficient to bring it into Porygon range.

So not only has Vullaby's presence established significant trends that severely push the metagame to be both more physically leaning and less defensive, to the benefit of offensive Porygon, but it is also among offensive Porygon's most valuable immediate teammates.


In short, all roads lead to the mon with 85% usage.
So as I made the vid b4 this post was made, im gonna respond to you now.

While I agree that the combination of vullaby + porygon is completely unhealthy for the tier and both of them should be banned asap, Im unfortunately not seeing a vullaby suspect happening soon.

Vullaby had a suspect, in which didn't get banned. In spite of wanting to suspect vullaby as well, the metagame didn't experiment any changes that make vullaby stronger that it was at that moment on time. So making a vull suspect again would be unfair for the people who voted "do not ban" on vulla. Im also not sure that what makes porygon broken is vullaby at all.

I cannot support you on a vullaby suspect right now unless you show us that the metagame has changed since the vullaby suspect, making vullaby stronger than it was back then. If you can't prove that, then a vullaby ban would go agaisnt the policy, and doesn't matter wheter it's broken or not. Until you do, I'll be begging for a porygon ban.
 

Coconut

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Hi, should i use belly drum berry juice cubone, standard thick club cubone, or thick club belly drum cubone? I cannot find the simple questions simple answers thread, so i decided to post it here. if anyone can link me it that would be much appreciated.
You shouldn't use Cubone, but if you must, Thick Club is the way to go.

Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread is right here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...s-little-cup-information-forum-rules.3656347/
 

KSG

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I've already spoken on the meta, but I'll post again to reiterate: We should resuspect Vullaby ASAP. LCPL is the ideal environment to develop a post-Vull meta before SCL. There is no need for a diversion to Porygon, which is clearly a secondary issue in Vullaby's orbit. If we draw another DNB result, then I suppose the issue is permanently settled - but this is a huge balance issue in every traditional sense in ways that are more clear now than they were at the beginning of the year. Let's be decisive.
 

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