Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread


Did my statistical analysis on LPL8 and discussed the different winners and losers, feel free to check it out! Thank you to Albi as usual for the help with the process.

Also would like to briefly support a re-test of vullaby, it seemed like that was the direction we were headed in and I was wondering where that ended up going? I also agree with Ace when it comes to Grookey's oppression on the metagame. I think it's a mon that heavily warps building in the tier and I would be very intrigued to see a metagame where Grookey is removed. I think it would free up building and give us the opportunity to see a more diverse metagame. I don't think I can add much more than what Ace wrote in his very detailed post so I just wanted to reiterate that. I can see this being controversial, so I would like to state that I'd much rather see a Vull retest first before any of the other more drastic actions suggested.
 
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I’ve been reading this thread and saw some very interesting ideas as to how the current LC Meta could be made better. The problem I’m seeing is nobody can find one solid solution that deals with a lot of the tiers main problems being speed ties, the grookey dilemma, and mienfoo centralization. I think there is a way to deal with all of this while keeping the core of LC’s current meta in tact:

I would like to propose unbanning Cutiefly.

I truly believe that this would help the meta grow out of 50/50s while maintaining what the already established meta is. And I have 3 main reasons why:

1.) Cutiefly’s potential movesets/counters

I believe that the mons common moves you will see on cutiefly are U-turn, Moonblast, Roost, Psychic, Bug Buzz, Quiver Dance, and Stun Spore.
Each of these moves will obviously depend on what kind of set you are using (life orb, Eviolite, sash, etc) However, what makes this not broken is that once you know the set, you can reasonably check it with multiple different mons. If it’s life orb with psychic, you can trap it with diglett. If it’s evio, you can wall it with the majority of standard poison/steel types in the meta. Munchlax and Porygon can also reasonably deal with any set it has to offer.

The main point I’m making here is this: The same defensive checks that are already prevalent in the meta are the same defensive checks that deal with Cutiefly.

2.) Mon’s Cutiefly’s checks/counters

Cutiefly is a mon that can both offensively and defensively pressure some of the most common threats in the tier. Mienfoo and Grookey are the main ones I want to focus on due to the outcry for their bans in order to beat Cutiefly you would need to be scarf stone edge foo or grassy seed acro grookey. While the foo is very very niche the grookey is more common, however, you also know what it is immediately and can play around it. The really important thing about this to me is that Cutiefly is just another offensive pressure to these two while having the same weaknesses as the things it’s checking.

3.) What a meta with Cutiefly would look like

I think the biggest reason why unbanning Cutiefly is a good move is how it affects the meta as a whole. The majority of the meta would stay the same (ie defensive cores/offensive threats) however, minor changes will occur such as rock slide diglett maybe becoming more common, munchlax usage rising, Steel type ferro seed move coverage, and little things like that. While the problems of limited foo and grookey counterplay and speed ties will no longer be as big a factor.

Conclusion:

Cutiefly could be the change this tier needs both to be more fun, and less rng reliant. I’d like to hear some other peoples opinions on this and see if anything comes from this I may have missed but all in all I think this would be a great move for the SS LC meta going forward.
 
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tossing a cent, because i had a mixed feeling about this potential Vullaby re-test. I might possibly support the retest if it wasn't for one thing; overloading.

:vullaby: +:porygon: +:abra:

This core, in particular, is the main thing i'm having an issue with if we brought Vullaby back to the tier, and it was back when people are forced to run Pawniard to deal with the rise of 3 Atk Pony-G and Life Orb Abra. Abra + Porygon core had been fine in the current meta, mainly due to Pawniard having easier time checking them with Berry Juice + other things i missed. Adding Vullaby back just makes Pawniard's job harder because Vullaby had a tendency to just delete it with Knock Off into Heat Wave (All those Pawniards were 12 SpD Eviolite back then), especially when your Pawniard is also tasked to check other threats, and unlike SubPunch / LO Submission Abra, Knock + Heat Wave Vullaby isn't very prediction-reliant and can easily beat Pawniard with that combo.

Currently, I'm not in favor of supporting the retest. I don't think Vullaby's return would fixed some current issues we have when this one thing is still present on Vullaby. I recall Porygon was brought up as a possible suspect test due to this particular thing prior to Vullaby's second suspect test.
 
I’ve been reading this thread and saw some very interesting ideas as to how the current LC Meta could be made better. The problem I’m seeing is nobody can find one solid solution that deals with a lot of the tiers main problems being speed ties, the grookey dilemma, and mienfoo centralization. I think there is a way to deal with all of this while keeping the core of LC’s current meta in tact:

I would like to propose unbanning Cutiefly.

I truly believe that this would help the meta grow out of 50/50s while maintaining what the already established meta is. And I have 3 main reasons why:

1.) Cutiefly’s potential movesets/counters

I believe that the mons common moves you will see on cutiefly are U-turn, Moonblast, Roost, Psychic, Bug Buzz, Quiver Dance, and Stun Spore.
Each of these moves will obviously depend on what kind of set you are using (life orb, Eviolite, sash, etc) However, what makes this not broken is that once you know the set, you can reasonably check it with multiple different mons. If it’s life orb with psychic, you can trap it with diglett. If it’s evio, you can wall it with the majority of standard poison/steel types in the meta. Munchlax and Porygon can also reasonably deal with any set it has to offer.

The main point I’m making here is this: The same defensive checks that are already prevalent in the meta are the same defensive checks that deal with Cutiefly.

2.) Mon’s Cutiefly’s checks/counters

Cutiefly is a mon that can both offensively and defensively pressure some of the most common threats in the tier. Mienfoo and Grookey are the main ones I want to focus on due to the outcry for their bans in order to beat Cutiefly you would need to be scarf stone edge foo or grassy seed acro grookey. While the foo is very very niche the grookey is more common, however, you also know what it is immediately and can play around it. The really important thing about this to me is that Cutiefly is just another offensive pressure to these two while having the same weaknesses as the things it’s checking.

3.) What a meta with Cutiefly would look like

I think the biggest reason why unbanning Cutiefly is a good move is how it affects the meta as a whole. The majority of the meta would stay the same (ie defensive cores/offensive threats) however, minor changes will occur such as rock slide diglett maybe becoming more common, munchlax usage rising, Steel type ferro seed move coverage, and little things like that. While the problems of limited foo and grookey counterplay and speed ties will no longer be as big a factor.

Conclusion:

Cutiefly could be the change this tier needs both to be more fun, and less rng reliant. I’d like to hear some other peoples opinions on this and see if anything comes from this I may have missed but all in all I think this would be a great move for the SS LC meta going forward.

I am very hesitant to accept a cutiefly unban. This is for 2 main reasons.

1.) Hard to Check Offensively
Of the checks and counters you listed, you mentioned steel and poison types. There's a pretty simple problem with this. Once you have a quiver dance up, you opponent has to play keep away and cannot deal with it offensively. At +1 Speed, it outspeeds everything in the tier minus scarf diglett or ponyta. All of the checks you listed are meant to be slow and bulky and have a very slow speed tier. In addition, the priority in the tier consists of grassy glide, mach punch, fake out and sucker punch, all of which cutiefly resists.

In order to be able to deal with cutiefly when its set up, you have to be able to
A) Take a hit
B) Be able to OHKO it back
C)You cannot do this with priority
D) You cannot outspeed
E) you cannot status due to shield dust

Another mon that is also a set up sweeper, namely Tyrunt, has a few issues as to why its not banned.
Its weak to fighting type moves as opposed to a quad resist, meaning that it has a hard time setting up on a lot of teams.
D Dance doesn't buff a defensive stat, so it doesn't become even bulkier while it sets up
It doesn't resist either of grass glide or sucker punch and only reaches 15 speed naturally, meaning revenge killing it significantly easier as practically any scarf mon can get a hit in.
Carv with speed boost turns the entire interaction into a 50/50 if Tyrunt only has a single d dance

2.) Too many sets
Of the sets you mentioned, being life orb, sash, and eviolite, there's already a lot of different things that could go wrong here.

Of what you listed,
Life Orb only has 1 check, and even then its a rarely used set on diglett as is.
Life Orb could run both u turn and roost to be extremely hard to wear down and predict
The two main steels in the tier don't resist bug stab and instead take neutral damage

236 SpA Life Orb Cutiefly Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 16)

236 SpA Life Orb Cutiefly Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 196+ SpD Pawniard: 13-17 (61.9 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (13, 13, 13, 13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17)

Even with Eviolite, its a 2HKO. Berry Juice can take 3, but even then it can u turn out on you and or hard switch to your main fighting type.

236 SpA Life Orb Cutiefly Bug Buzz vs. 84 HP / 228 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 12)

Poison types would be unreliable due to Psychic coverage + physical investment to better check foo, meaning that they're quite unreliable.

236 SpA Life Orb Cutiefly Psychic vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Koffing: 16-21 (80 - 105%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 21)

236 SpA Life Orb Cutiefly Psychic vs. 116 HP / 180 SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 13-18 (56.5 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)

236 SpA Life Orb Cutiefly Psychic vs. 44 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 13-16 (54.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 16)

These are all current sets (at least the ones on the strategy dex), and that is with eviolite. Lets check without eviolite.

236 SpA Life Orb Cutiefly Psychic vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Koffing: 23-29 (115 - 145%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 29)

236 SpA Life Orb Cutiefly Psychic vs. 116 HP / 180 SpD Mareanie: 18-23 (78.2 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (18, 18, 18, 18, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23)

236 SpA Life Orb Cutiefly Psychic vs. 44 HP / 236 SpD Foongus: 18-23 (75 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (18, 18, 18, 18, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23)

And then we look at quiver dance.

+1 236 SpA Cutiefly Psychic vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Koffing: 16-20 (80 - 100%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20)

+1 236 SpA Cutiefly Psychic vs. 116 HP / 180 SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (14, 14, 14, 14, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)

+1 236 SpA Cutiefly Psychic vs. 124 HP / 156 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 14-18 (56 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (14, 14, 14, 14, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)

Its just a little bit too fucking nuts. These pokemon would also still have to check foo, meaning that this large an amount of chip would be extremely hard to deal with. Add in a koffing with n gas into the mix to deny regenerator, and it becomes neigh impossible to get health back on these guys.

Download porygon would not be able to switch in cutiefly off of a u turn and must hard switch in or else risk losing the special attack increase due to quiver dance buffing special defense, making it significantly shakier of a check.
Trace Porygon would have a generally hard time chipping it down due to the same reason. You would practically be forced into using thunder wave, which can be easily played around.
Munchlax is weak to mienfoo, which even with the cutiefly rise, would still be incredibly present within the metagame. Also if it gets knocked once, then it can't check anything reliably.
It has access to defog, aromatherapy, screens, tailwind and switcheroo/trick. So any of the previous defensive checks could get gifted a choice item and immediately become hard to use and it can give so much support to a team it'd be hard to be work around.

As a result, I would not be supportive of a cutiefly unban.

Let me know if anything I put here is wrong, as I am still learning myself. I think that if cutiefly just had less possible moves and especially no quiver dance, it could fit into our current meta much better. It can just do basically anything you want it to while being at base 19 speed. Even 1 less speed stat would make it more manageable due to needing the quiver dance to outspeed things like staryu, abra and ponyta.
 
Download porygon would not be able to switch in cutiefly off of a u turn and must hard switch in or else risk losing the special attack increase due to quiver dance buffing special defense, making it significantly shakier of a check.
IIRC, Download only takes into consideration the natural stats, so a boost would have no effect.

I agree with the rest of the post, your points have come through very directly!
 

Drifting

in my glo stance smokin' dope
is a Tiering Contributor
IIRC, Download only takes into consideration the natural stats, so a boost would have no effect.

I agree with the rest of the post, your points have come through very directly!
Decided to do a speedrun of how long it took me to look up Download on Bulbapedia and see this isn't true

"For determining which of the foe's defensive stat is lower, Download takes into account stat stages "

smogonspeedrun.PNG


Think this is a pretty respectable PB for a first attempt, if any other runners wanna try and optimise this be my guest.

fiend edit: do not post in response to this
 
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Fiend

someguy
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Hello everyone, the LC Council is putting out a new survey to gauge public opinion on the current metagame. Anyone with Smogon account may respond. We will keep this open through the end (11:59 PM GMT-4) of Wednesday, June 29th, but the council will be reading responses as they come in.

Please respond to the survey here. Thank you to everyone who participates in these. Your response will help shape the future of our metagame. If you have any questions, feel free to shoot me message here on Smogon or on Discord (Fiend#8794) at anytime. Have a great weekend.

non-embedded link: https://forms.gle/wQ3aju1uAeQkgoLz6
 
Short opinions about some Mons after I have been Expulso'd from LC Open and Grand Slam.

First, the busted Mons.

Mienfoo: Almost no reason to not use. Has Regenerator, Knock Off, U-Turn and a type without almost weaknesses: Morelull is the one viable Fairy type, Archen is the one Flying type, Psychic have just Natu and Abra. Non Koffing poisons are trapped by Diglett or useless currently like Foongus. It completely centralizes the Tier, which, why not always a bad thing, I do think it makes it less enjoyable. Regarding sets, the more deeper I went into the LC Open, the less I liked the standard max Speed Mienfoo, and started to use (with variable success) either slow Pdef (takes Carvanha better), slow Sdef (takes Porygon better) or Scarf with SE. Also, I like CC more than HJK, miss being a death sentence is not my thing. There wasn't a single battle in which the 8 PPs of CC runned out, LC Meta is way to offensive for long battles.

Arena Trap: Almost every Tier has banned this, why the only ones where I think it's broken left it? I know that you can take advantage of your Mon being trapped, but it still limits both Teambuilding and the way games are played. I actually have no problems with Trapinch, but Diglett outspeeds everything. The amount of things Diglett can do is incredible. LO Rock Slide smashes almost all Mienfoo checks, Sash is guaranteed Rocks or guaranteed Memento, Scarf RKs Ponyta and Tyrunt, so those are unviable unless you use many of them. In fact, without Diglett I think Mienfoo would be perfectly fine, since Mareanie would always counter it. Just like Mienfoo, Diglett is a Mon that will always do something, it's just too good.

Abra: Worse than the previous 2,but more broken at the same time. Too fast, hits too hard and has way too many sets. By the time you know which set it is, your Ferro or Pawniard have already been punched or your Munchlax countered. Might be the one positive thing Diglett does for the Meta, to trap this thing. Even then, it's not reliable since Shed Shell exist. I hate facing this more than facing Mienfoo and Diglett combined, you are never truly safe.

Now, non busted Mons

Grookey: This is 0 broken by itself. It can be broken with Diglett support, but that is Diglett's problem. Eviolite is my favorite set on this, it allows it to check Carvanha. In the past I used Scarf with Wood Hammer, could be explored again.

Natu: Good Mon, at the beginning I thought it's bad, but ended up liking it on more offensive teams. Natu + Sash Diglett prevent Rocks most of the time.

Koffing: Has too many things to do in a match, yet somehow delivers them well. 9/10 Mon.

Pawniard: Best Steel. 4th slot gives many options: Rocks, SD, Brick Break (for other Pawn), Psycho Cut (for paralyzed and knocked Mienfoo), Thunder Wave and Beat Up (cause fuck Sub-Punch Abra).

Ferro: At the beginning of my failed LC Open campaign I thought this was an utter trash, abused by Natu, Fire Mons and Magnet Pull Magnemite in almost every battle. Then I stopped using the trash standard set and started using Bullet Seed as Grass Move and other cool moves like Revenge, Explosion and Rest. Results with Ferro greatly improved after that. Ferro doesn't need to use Rocks (though it is good at that on non-Natu match-ups, since Staryu gets humillated), he is much better at checking threats, knocking and firing strong (even if uninvested) moves, like Bullet Seed and Explosion.

Porygon: Defensive Teleport is cool, it's a shame it's not compatible with Discharge unless you run Analytic.

Staryu: Nice spinner, has great sinergy with Rowlet.

Carvanha: More like, a fun list of Carvanha checks: Morelull, Deino, Rowlet, Lileep and Stufful. Will speak about some of them later. It's not a broken Mon btw.

Mareanie: Eject Button + Diglett or Band Drilbur is fun.

Frillish: Even though Mareanie and Staryu are easier to fit, I think this is the most dangerous water. Trading the Eviolite for a burn on Mienfoo turn 1 is a favorable burn most of the time. Frillish is the reason I consider non Tbolt Staryu unviable, same for Porygon. I often build teams and think at the end "a well played Frillish completely destroys this", it's truly an A+ Mon for me. Between cursed Body, burns and Hex, it really provides amazing support while being a threat itself. Max HP and Max Def is the optimal spread for me, since it almost always lives 2 Mienfoo Knocks from full.

Ponyta: Don't like using, but also don't like facing this.

Foongus: Very bad. Can be good in non Ferro and non Natu match-ups, but those 2 are way too common.

Trapinch: Munchlax and badly player Porygon. These are the 2 Mons I use it for over Digklett.

Larvesta: Offensive with Sleep Talk is my favorite set on this, especially if I don't use Ferro or Natu. If I do, Wild Charge is cool instead of Sleep Talk.

Munchlax: Very rarely I managed to take advantage of Curse on this. Body Slam, Recycle and 2 out of EQ, Fire Punch, Facade and Self Destruct is the optimal set for me. Munchlax doesn't need Curse to sweep, at +0 it already hits hard enough. Just protect it from Knock and you are fine.

Magnemite: To bring this vs Ferro and avoid Knock, you often need either prediction or sacking a Mon first. To avoid dealing with this problem, on many teams I use Iron Defense + Eviolite instead of Sub + Salac Berry. At +6, even with Eviolite knocked, it lives any physical Move from Diglett, Mienfoo or Ponyta, can take one Heat Wave from Natu 2. It won't be killing the whole team, but 2 kills for the price of 1 can be enough.

Dwebble: Best HO lead, nothing to say here.

Onix: After Vullaby left, this is underwhelming. It doesn't hit hard enough even after DD.

Tyrunt: This one, however is good, though it does need both Grookey and Memento Diglett to achieve the maximum potential.

Now, underrated Mons.

Hail: With some Eject Button and U-Turn pivoting, LO Alolan Sandshrew can destroy whole teams. I prefer Icicle Spear over Triple Axel as Ice move.

Rain: Vs no Grookey, Swift Swim Mons like Omanyte are devastating. Koffing can help here, he learns Thunder. Sub-Salac Magnemite is also effective if you spam Shell Smash on Ferro with Omanyte, forcing it to kill you. Grookey itself has to be predicted... Or lured. Fun fact, Eviolite Wingull lives LO Grassy Glide from full and no one expects Eviolite on Wingull.

Shellos: Curse + Amnesia is known, but he can also use Countercoat or Infestation+Yawn pretty well.

Drilbur: Very good at putting Rocks. Can threaten Koffing, Onix and Mareanie with EQ, checks Tyrunt once. Apart from Rocks, he can also use Band. Many teams in LC rely on bulk instead of resists to take Ground moves, well this 2HKOs Mienfoo and Ferro easily if you bring it with your own Mienfoo using U-Turn on Koffing. Even if actual ground resists are used, Natu takes a lot from Rock Slide and Grookey from Poison Jab.

Mantyke: Viable bulky water with Restalk. I discovered it when Eject Pack Vulpix + Diglett was a common core, but it also checks non-LO Abra, Natu, Mienfoo and Foongus among other things. Even after being knocked it still takes hits well and can sometimes defeat Ferro and Mareanie. Unlike Mareanie, it also gives Attack boost to Porygon. Can work as Rain Sweeper too, but it's better as a wall.

Deino: Another bulky Restalk Mon. This checks Carvanha, Abra, Ponyta, Frillish, non IB Staryu and Natu. Even without investment in Attack, Crunch hits hard and Mienfoo isn't coming free either, Body Slam can paralyze it.

Stufful: Yes, I like Restalk. Takes insane hits from Carvanha, Tyrunt, Grookey, Pawniard, Munchlax, and every physical Mon really. Even after being knocked, lives HJK and can paralyze Mienfoo with Force Palm.

Larvitar: If you are lucky and get this on a poison from Koffing, after DD it OHKOs almost everything. I used the galaxy brain strat of pairing it with Tspikes Trubbish, so they got bounced by Natu and I could run Berry Juice. It worked on ladder, but I miss played in the Open Battle when I used it.

Rowlett: Cool Pdef Defogger that doesn't care about Ferro, Mienfoo and non-Acrobatics Grookey. Can sort of check Carvanha too, Seed Bomb and Brave Bird hit hard for a defensive Mon. Worked very well in all the battles I used it.

Rookidee and Zubat: Worse Grookey, but they learn U-Turn.

Gossifleur: Regenerator Spinner that slowly beats Ferro (using Bullet Seed, again) and quickly beats Onix and Drilbur.

Swablu: Another Defogger. This one can absorb and heal status from Frillish and Ferro, while still checking Grookey. All of the previous ones lose to Pawniard, well, this can smash it with Heat Wave or take advantage of the Evasion drop and use Sing, bypassing Sucker Punch.

Axew and Bagon: There are almost no Fairies currently, so DD + Outrage can go wild with hazards support. Axew OHKOs Pawn with Superpower, Bagon OHKOs Ferro with +1 Sheer Force Fire Fang and smashes Mienfoo hard with Zen Headbutt.

Eevee: Insane Band breaker vs no Ghosts ( it can run Bite, but I personally prefer Body Slam, QA, Double Edge and Facade). If used well, can funnily sweep with Quick Attack.

Dewpider: Insane Specs breaker, though very slow. 2HKOs knocked Ferro or Mareanie with Surf. OHKOs Mienfoo through Eviolite.

Phantump: Harvest Mon with Sub, Horn Leech, Power Up Punch and Poltergeist. Requires Para and limited use of Knock. Somehow works, at least sometimes.

Corphish: Very good DD Sweeper vs no Grass and no Mareanie match-ups. A shame all those are too common.

Sandygast: Bulky rocker that doesn't lose to Natu. Best Tyrunt check, can burn with Scorching Sands and check Ponyta too. Has a chance to take +6 Fire Punch from Magby. Doesn't care about anything Koffing throws, even Wow (only Ground outside of Larvitar and Restalk Mudbray who can say this).

Hopefully you liked this post and I can return to this meta in SCL or something. Have a nice Eeveening.
 

Drifting

in my glo stance smokin' dope
is a Tiering Contributor
Short opinions about some Mons after I have been Expulso'd from LC Open and Grand Slam.

First, the busted Mons.

Mienfoo: Almost no reason to not use. Has Regenerator, Knock Off, U-Turn and a type without almost weaknesses: Morelull is the one viable Fairy type, Archen is the one Flying type, Psychic have just Natu and Abra. Non Koffing poisons are trapped by Diglett or useless currently like Foongus. It completely centralizes the Tier, which, why not always a bad thing, I do think it makes it less enjoyable. Regarding sets, the more deeper I went into the LC Open, the less I liked the standard max Speed Mienfoo, and started to use (with variable success) either slow Pdef (takes Carvanha better), slow Sdef (takes Porygon better) or Scarf with SE. Also, I like CC more than HJK, miss being a death sentence is not my thing. There wasn't a single battle in which the 8 PPs of CC runned out, LC Meta is way to offensive for long battles.

Arena Trap: Almost every Tier has banned this, why the only ones where I think it's broken left it? I know that you can take advantage of your Mon being trapped, but it still limits both Teambuilding and the way games are played. I actually have no problems with Trapinch, but Diglett outspeeds everything. The amount of things Diglett can do is incredible. LO Rock Slide smashes almost all Mienfoo checks, Sash is guaranteed Rocks or guaranteed Memento, Scarf RKs Ponyta and Tyrunt, so those are unviable unless you use many of them. In fact, without Diglett I think Mienfoo would be perfectly fine, since Mareanie would always counter it. Just like Mienfoo, Diglett is a Mon that will always do something, it's just too good.

Abra: Worse than the previous 2,but more broken at the same time. Too fast, hits too hard and has way too many sets. By the time you know which set it is, your Ferro or Pawniard have already been punched or your Munchlax countered. Might be the one positive thing Diglett does for the Meta, to trap this thing. Even then, it's not reliable since Shed Shell exist. I hate facing this more than facing Mienfoo and Diglett combined, you are never truly safe.

Now, non busted Mons

Grookey: This is 0 broken by itself. It can be broken with Diglett support, but that is Diglett's problem. Eviolite is my favorite set on this, it allows it to check Carvanha. In the past I used Scarf with Wood Hammer, could be explored again.

Natu: Good Mon, at the beginning I thought it's bad, but ended up liking it on more offensive teams. Natu + Sash Diglett prevent Rocks most of the time.

Koffing: Has too many things to do in a match, yet somehow delivers them well. 9/10 Mon.

Pawniard: Best Steel. 4th slot gives many options: Rocks, SD, Brick Break (for other Pawn), Psycho Cut (for paralyzed and knocked Mienfoo), Thunder Wave and Beat Up (cause fuck Sub-Punch Abra).

Ferro: At the beginning of my failed LC Open campaign I thought this was an utter trash, abused by Natu, Fire Mons and Magnet Pull Magnemite in almost every battle. Then I stopped using the trash standard set and started using Bullet Seed as Grass Move and other cool moves like Revenge, Explosion and Rest. Results with Ferro greatly improved after that. Ferro doesn't need to use Rocks (though it is good at that on non-Natu match-ups, since Staryu gets humillated), he is much better at checking threats, knocking and firing strong (even if uninvested) moves, like Bullet Seed and Explosion.

Porygon: Defensive Teleport is cool, it's a shame it's not compatible with Discharge unless you run Analytic.

Staryu: Nice spinner, has great sinergy with Rowlet.

Carvanha: More like, a fun list of Carvanha checks: Morelull, Deino, Rowlet, Lileep and Stufful. Will speak about some of them later. It's not a broken Mon btw.

Mareanie: Eject Button + Diglett or Band Drilbur is fun.

Frillish: Even though Mareanie and Staryu are easier to fit, I think this is the most dangerous water. Trading the Eviolite for a burn on Mienfoo turn 1 is a favorable burn most of the time. Frillish is the reason I consider non Tbolt Staryu unviable, same for Porygon. I often build teams and think at the end "a well played Frillish completely destroys this", it's truly an A+ Mon for me. Between cursed Body, burns and Hex, it really provides amazing support while being a threat itself. Max HP and Max Def is the optimal spread for me, since it almost always lives 2 Mienfoo Knocks from full.

Ponyta: Don't like using, but also don't like facing this.

Foongus: Very bad. Can be good in non Ferro and non Natu match-ups, but those 2 are way too common.

Trapinch: Munchlax and badly player Porygon. These are the 2 Mons I use it for over Digklett.

Larvesta: Offensive with Sleep Talk is my favorite set on this, especially if I don't use Ferro or Natu. If I do, Wild Charge is cool instead of Sleep Talk.

Munchlax: Very rarely I managed to take advantage of Curse on this. Body Slam, Recycle and 2 out of EQ, Fire Punch, Facade and Self Destruct is the optimal set for me. Munchlax doesn't need Curse to sweep, at +0 it already hits hard enough. Just protect it from Knock and you are fine.

Magnemite: To bring this vs Ferro and avoid Knock, you often need either prediction or sacking a Mon first. To avoid dealing with this problem, on many teams I use Iron Defense + Eviolite instead of Sub + Salac Berry. At +6, even with Eviolite knocked, it lives any physical Move from Diglett, Mienfoo or Ponyta, can take one Heat Wave from Natu 2. It won't be killing the whole team, but 2 kills for the price of 1 can be enough.

Dwebble: Best HO lead, nothing to say here.

Onix: After Vullaby left, this is underwhelming. It doesn't hit hard enough even after DD.

Tyrunt: This one, however is good, though it does need both Grookey and Memento Diglett to achieve the maximum potential.

Now, underrated Mons.

Hail: With some Eject Button and U-Turn pivoting, LO Alolan Sandshrew can destroy whole teams. I prefer Icicle Spear over Triple Axel as Ice move.

Rain: Vs no Grookey, Swift Swim Mons like Omanyte are devastating. Koffing can help here, he learns Thunder. Sub-Salac Magnemite is also effective if you spam Shell Smash on Ferro with Omanyte, forcing it to kill you. Grookey itself has to be predicted... Or lured. Fun fact, Eviolite Wingull lives LO Grassy Glide from full and no one expects Eviolite on Wingull.

Shellos: Curse + Amnesia is known, but he can also use Countercoat or Infestation+Yawn pretty well.

Drilbur: Very good at putting Rocks. Can threaten Koffing, Onix and Mareanie with EQ, checks Tyrunt once. Apart from Rocks, he can also use Band. Many teams in LC rely on bulk instead of resists to take Ground moves, well this 2HKOs Mienfoo and Ferro easily if you bring it with your own Mienfoo using U-Turn on Koffing. Even if actual ground resists are used, Natu takes a lot from Rock Slide and Grookey from Poison Jab.

Mantyke: Viable bulky water with Restalk. I discovered it when Eject Pack Vulpix + Diglett was a common core, but it also checks non-LO Abra, Natu, Mienfoo and Foongus among other things. Even after being knocked it still takes hits well and can sometimes defeat Ferro and Mareanie. Unlike Mareanie, it also gives Attack boost to Porygon. Can work as Rain Sweeper too, but it's better as a wall.

Deino: Another bulky Restalk Mon. This checks Carvanha, Abra, Ponyta, Frillish, non IB Staryu and Natu. Even without investment in Attack, Crunch hits hard and Mienfoo isn't coming free either, Body Slam can paralyze it.

Stufful: Yes, I like Restalk. Takes insane hits from Carvanha, Tyrunt, Grookey, Pawniard, Munchlax, and every physical Mon really. Even after being knocked, lives HJK and can paralyze Mienfoo with Force Palm.

Larvitar: If you are lucky and get this on a poison from Koffing, after DD it OHKOs almost everything. I used the galaxy brain strat of pairing it with Tspikes Trubbish, so they got bounced by Natu and I could run Berry Juice. It worked on ladder, but I miss played in the Open Battle when I used it.

Rowlett: Cool Pdef Defogger that doesn't care about Ferro, Mienfoo and non-Acrobatics Grookey. Can sort of check Carvanha too, Seed Bomb and Brave Bird hit hard for a defensive Mon. Worked very well in all the battles I used it.

Rookidee and Zubat: Worse Grookey, but they learn U-Turn.

Gossifleur: Regenerator Spinner that slowly beats Ferro (using Bullet Seed, again) and quickly beats Onix and Drilbur.

Swablu: Another Defogger. This one can absorb and heal status from Frillish and Ferro, while still checking Grookey. All of the previous ones lose to Pawniard, well, this can smash it with Heat Wave or take advantage of the Evasion drop and use Sing, bypassing Sucker Punch.

Axew and Bagon: There are almost no Fairies currently, so DD + Outrage can go wild with hazards support. Axew OHKOs Pawn with Superpower, Bagon OHKOs Ferro with +1 Sheer Force Fire Fang and smashes Mienfoo hard with Zen Headbutt.

Eevee: Insane Band breaker vs no Ghosts ( it can run Bite, but I personally prefer Body Slam, QA, Double Edge and Facade). If used well, can funnily sweep with Quick Attack.

Dewpider: Insane Specs breaker, though very slow. 2HKOs knocked Ferro or Mareanie with Surf. OHKOs Mienfoo through Eviolite.

Phantump: Harvest Mon with Sub, Horn Leech, Power Up Punch and Poltergeist. Requires Para and limited use of Knock. Somehow works, at least sometimes.

Corphish: Very good DD Sweeper vs no Grass and no Mareanie match-ups. A shame all those are too common.

Sandygast: Bulky rocker that doesn't lose to Natu. Best Tyrunt check, can burn with Scorching Sands and check Ponyta too. Has a chance to take +6 Fire Punch from Magby. Doesn't care about anything Koffing throws, even Wow (only Ground outside of Larvitar and Restalk Mudbray who can say this).

Hopefully you liked this post and I can return to this meta in SCL or something. Have a nice Eeveening.
I’m quite interested in some of the more innovative mons you’ve listed in the “underrated” section, and I know you’ve found success with them, in fact I was trying to test some of them myself (Sandygast, Deino, etc) but I couldn’t figure out which sets you were running on them.

Could you maybe provide a pokepaste with basic sets and spreads you typically use for some of these mons? It would make testing them a lot easier.
 
I’m quite interested in some of the more innovative mons you’ve listed in the “underrated” section, and I know you’ve found success with them, in fact I was trying to test some of them myself (Sandygast, Deino, etc) but I couldn’t figure out which sets you were running on them.

Could you maybe provide a pokepaste with basic sets and spreads you typically use for some of these mons? It would make testing them a lot easier.

https://pokepast.es/cf2d80d0622c879b < Here is the unmons army. Its not everything I tried (Dratini, Dreepy, lots of fire Mons, Trubbish, Ralts, Nincada, Fletching, Klink, Cufant, Golett etc. come to mind), but I couldn,t build decent teams with the rest. For now.
 
Short opinions about some Mons after I have been Expulso'd from LC Open and Grand Slam.

First, the busted Mons.

Mienfoo: Almost no reason to not use. Has Regenerator, Knock Off, U-Turn and a type without almost weaknesses: Morelull is the one viable Fairy type, Archen is the one Flying type, Psychic have just Natu and Abra. Non Koffing poisons are trapped by Diglett or useless currently like Foongus. It completely centralizes the Tier, which, why not always a bad thing, I do think it makes it less enjoyable. Regarding sets, the more deeper I went into the LC Open, the less I liked the standard max Speed Mienfoo, and started to use (with variable success) either slow Pdef (takes Carvanha better), slow Sdef (takes Porygon better) or Scarf with SE. Also, I like CC more than HJK, miss being a death sentence is not my thing. There wasn't a single battle in which the 8 PPs of CC runned out, LC Meta is way to offensive for long battles.

Arena Trap: Almost every Tier has banned this, why the only ones where I think it's broken left it? I know that you can take advantage of your Mon being trapped, but it still limits both Teambuilding and the way games are played. I actually have no problems with Trapinch, but Diglett outspeeds everything. The amount of things Diglett can do is incredible. LO Rock Slide smashes almost all Mienfoo checks, Sash is guaranteed Rocks or guaranteed Memento, Scarf RKs Ponyta and Tyrunt, so those are unviable unless you use many of them. In fact, without Diglett I think Mienfoo would be perfectly fine, since Mareanie would always counter it. Just like Mienfoo, Diglett is a Mon that will always do something, it's just too good.

Abra: Worse than the previous 2,but more broken at the same time. Too fast, hits too hard and has way too many sets. By the time you know which set it is, your Ferro or Pawniard have already been punched or your Munchlax countered. Might be the one positive thing Diglett does for the Meta, to trap this thing. Even then, it's not reliable since Shed Shell exist. I hate facing this more than facing Mienfoo and Diglett combined, you are never truly safe.

Now, non busted Mons

Grookey: This is 0 broken by itself. It can be broken with Diglett support, but that is Diglett's problem. Eviolite is my favorite set on this, it allows it to check Carvanha. In the past I used Scarf with Wood Hammer, could be explored again.

Natu: Good Mon, at the beginning I thought it's bad, but ended up liking it on more offensive teams. Natu + Sash Diglett prevent Rocks most of the time.

Koffing: Has too many things to do in a match, yet somehow delivers them well. 9/10 Mon.

Pawniard: Best Steel. 4th slot gives many options: Rocks, SD, Brick Break (for other Pawn), Psycho Cut (for paralyzed and knocked Mienfoo), Thunder Wave and Beat Up (cause fuck Sub-Punch Abra).

Ferro: At the beginning of my failed LC Open campaign I thought this was an utter trash, abused by Natu, Fire Mons and Magnet Pull Magnemite in almost every battle. Then I stopped using the trash standard set and started using Bullet Seed as Grass Move and other cool moves like Revenge, Explosion and Rest. Results with Ferro greatly improved after that. Ferro doesn't need to use Rocks (though it is good at that on non-Natu match-ups, since Staryu gets humillated), he is much better at checking threats, knocking and firing strong (even if uninvested) moves, like Bullet Seed and Explosion.

Porygon: Defensive Teleport is cool, it's a shame it's not compatible with Discharge unless you run Analytic.

Staryu: Nice spinner, has great sinergy with Rowlet.

Carvanha: More like, a fun list of Carvanha checks: Morelull, Deino, Rowlet, Lileep and Stufful. Will speak about some of them later. It's not a broken Mon btw.

Mareanie: Eject Button + Diglett or Band Drilbur is fun.

Frillish: Even though Mareanie and Staryu are easier to fit, I think this is the most dangerous water. Trading the Eviolite for a burn on Mienfoo turn 1 is a favorable burn most of the time. Frillish is the reason I consider non Tbolt Staryu unviable, same for Porygon. I often build teams and think at the end "a well played Frillish completely destroys this", it's truly an A+ Mon for me. Between cursed Body, burns and Hex, it really provides amazing support while being a threat itself. Max HP and Max Def is the optimal spread for me, since it almost always lives 2 Mienfoo Knocks from full.

Ponyta: Don't like using, but also don't like facing this.

Foongus: Very bad. Can be good in non Ferro and non Natu match-ups, but those 2 are way too common.

Trapinch: Munchlax and badly player Porygon. These are the 2 Mons I use it for over Digklett.

Larvesta: Offensive with Sleep Talk is my favorite set on this, especially if I don't use Ferro or Natu. If I do, Wild Charge is cool instead of Sleep Talk.

Munchlax: Very rarely I managed to take advantage of Curse on this. Body Slam, Recycle and 2 out of EQ, Fire Punch, Facade and Self Destruct is the optimal set for me. Munchlax doesn't need Curse to sweep, at +0 it already hits hard enough. Just protect it from Knock and you are fine.

Magnemite: To bring this vs Ferro and avoid Knock, you often need either prediction or sacking a Mon first. To avoid dealing with this problem, on many teams I use Iron Defense + Eviolite instead of Sub + Salac Berry. At +6, even with Eviolite knocked, it lives any physical Move from Diglett, Mienfoo or Ponyta, can take one Heat Wave from Natu 2. It won't be killing the whole team, but 2 kills for the price of 1 can be enough.

Dwebble: Best HO lead, nothing to say here.

Onix: After Vullaby left, this is underwhelming. It doesn't hit hard enough even after DD.

Tyrunt: This one, however is good, though it does need both Grookey and Memento Diglett to achieve the maximum potential.

Now, underrated Mons.

Hail: With some Eject Button and U-Turn pivoting, LO Alolan Sandshrew can destroy whole teams. I prefer Icicle Spear over Triple Axel as Ice move.

Rain: Vs no Grookey, Swift Swim Mons like Omanyte are devastating. Koffing can help here, he learns Thunder. Sub-Salac Magnemite is also effective if you spam Shell Smash on Ferro with Omanyte, forcing it to kill you. Grookey itself has to be predicted... Or lured. Fun fact, Eviolite Wingull lives LO Grassy Glide from full and no one expects Eviolite on Wingull.

Shellos: Curse + Amnesia is known, but he can also use Countercoat or Infestation+Yawn pretty well.

Drilbur: Very good at putting Rocks. Can threaten Koffing, Onix and Mareanie with EQ, checks Tyrunt once. Apart from Rocks, he can also use Band. Many teams in LC rely on bulk instead of resists to take Ground moves, well this 2HKOs Mienfoo and Ferro easily if you bring it with your own Mienfoo using U-Turn on Koffing. Even if actual ground resists are used, Natu takes a lot from Rock Slide and Grookey from Poison Jab.

Mantyke: Viable bulky water with Restalk. I discovered it when Eject Pack Vulpix + Diglett was a common core, but it also checks non-LO Abra, Natu, Mienfoo and Foongus among other things. Even after being knocked it still takes hits well and can sometimes defeat Ferro and Mareanie. Unlike Mareanie, it also gives Attack boost to Porygon. Can work as Rain Sweeper too, but it's better as a wall.

Deino: Another bulky Restalk Mon. This checks Carvanha, Abra, Ponyta, Frillish, non IB Staryu and Natu. Even without investment in Attack, Crunch hits hard and Mienfoo isn't coming free either, Body Slam can paralyze it.

Stufful: Yes, I like Restalk. Takes insane hits from Carvanha, Tyrunt, Grookey, Pawniard, Munchlax, and every physical Mon really. Even after being knocked, lives HJK and can paralyze Mienfoo with Force Palm.

Larvitar: If you are lucky and get this on a poison from Koffing, after DD it OHKOs almost everything. I used the galaxy brain strat of pairing it with Tspikes Trubbish, so they got bounced by Natu and I could run Berry Juice. It worked on ladder, but I miss played in the Open Battle when I used it.

Rowlett: Cool Pdef Defogger that doesn't care about Ferro, Mienfoo and non-Acrobatics Grookey. Can sort of check Carvanha too, Seed Bomb and Brave Bird hit hard for a defensive Mon. Worked very well in all the battles I used it.

Rookidee and Zubat: Worse Grookey, but they learn U-Turn.

Gossifleur: Regenerator Spinner that slowly beats Ferro (using Bullet Seed, again) and quickly beats Onix and Drilbur.

Swablu: Another Defogger. This one can absorb and heal status from Frillish and Ferro, while still checking Grookey. All of the previous ones lose to Pawniard, well, this can smash it with Heat Wave or take advantage of the Evasion drop and use Sing, bypassing Sucker Punch.

Axew and Bagon: There are almost no Fairies currently, so DD + Outrage can go wild with hazards support. Axew OHKOs Pawn with Superpower, Bagon OHKOs Ferro with +1 Sheer Force Fire Fang and smashes Mienfoo hard with Zen Headbutt.

Eevee: Insane Band breaker vs no Ghosts ( it can run Bite, but I personally prefer Body Slam, QA, Double Edge and Facade). If used well, can funnily sweep with Quick Attack.

Dewpider: Insane Specs breaker, though very slow. 2HKOs knocked Ferro or Mareanie with Surf. OHKOs Mienfoo through Eviolite.

Phantump: Harvest Mon with Sub, Horn Leech, Power Up Punch and Poltergeist. Requires Para and limited use of Knock. Somehow works, at least sometimes.

Corphish: Very good DD Sweeper vs no Grass and no Mareanie match-ups. A shame all those are too common.

Sandygast: Bulky rocker that doesn't lose to Natu. Best Tyrunt check, can burn with Scorching Sands and check Ponyta too. Has a chance to take +6 Fire Punch from Magby. Doesn't care about anything Koffing throws, even Wow (only Ground outside of Larvitar and Restalk Mudbray who can say this).

Hopefully you liked this post and I can return to this meta in SCL or something. Have a nice Eeveening.
You started out making sense but then just went completely sideways.
Arena Trap isn't really broken, Mareanie is the only poison who is caused significant issues by it, and imo that just adds a layer oy complexity and skill to the tier.
Every mon has adapted to arena trap, like shed shell on abra, Flame charge on pony etc.
Will edit this to comment on the other things but mainly stressing that arena trap adds skill to the tier making you adapt for it, while at the same time it's not unreasonably dominating in the teambuilder, as you can simply bring something like a trace pory if you really don't want to deal with trapping.
 
You started out making sense but then just went completely sideways.
Arena Trap isn't really broken, Mareanie is the only poison who is caused significant issues by it, and imo that just adds a layer oy complexity and skill to the tier.
Every mon has adapted to arena trap, like shed shell on abra, Flame charge on pony etc.
Will edit this to comment on the other things but mainly stressing that arena trap adds skill to the tier making you adapt for it, while at the same time it's not unreasonably dominating in the teambuilder, as you can simply bring something like a trace pory if you really don't want to deal with trapping.
Think what you want, I am not impossing my opinion. But it's not just Mareanie, it's Mareanie, Abra, every Fire Mon, Pawniard, Munchlax (this is a Trapinch thing though), Tyrunt, Grookey (sash Sludge Bomb) and every grounded Mon (except Koffing and ghosts) Mon after it has taken enough damage. Sure, you can adapt, the Tier has been doing so. But you can also adapt to Swirlix, or Chlorophyll or Alolan Vulpix, or Vullaby, yet they are all banned.
Yes, Shed Shell is a thing and yes, Tiers and Metas are very different, but I am yet to see a good argument regarding why forcing Shed Shell on Heatran in OU is a Bad thing and at the same time having either Shed Shell or Flame Charge forced on Ponyta is healthy.
 
Think what you want, I am not impossing my opinion. But it's not just Mareanie, it's Mareanie, Abra, every Fire Mon, Pawniard, Munchlax (this is a Trapinch thing though), Tyrunt, Grookey (sash Sludge Bomb) and every grounded Mon (except Koffing and ghosts) Mon after it has taken enough damage. Sure, you can adapt, the Tier has been doing so. But you can also adapt to Swirlix, or Chlorophyll or Alolan Vulpix, or Vullaby, yet they are all banned.
Yes, Shed Shell is a thing and yes, Tiers and Metas are very different, but I am yet to see a good argument regarding why forcing Shed Shell on Heatran in OU is a Bad thing and at the same time having either Shed Shell or Flame Charge forced on Ponyta is healthy.
You're trying to fit an OU narrative in LC. What Heatran faces in OU is completely irrelevant to how the LC meta functions.
Flame charge isn't forced on Ponyta. You could simply not run it, if you wished, but the tradeoff is being weaker to trappers.

Why is Trapinch "forced" to run First Impression to deal with Grookey?
Why is Natu "forced" to run heat Wave to beat ferro?

Simply put, you're stating that running a single move to beat a prominent meta threat is somehow an unreasonable demand- which it isn't.

As for your Swirlix and Alolan Vulpix point - Yes, we can adapt. And we did before the ban. However, there is a stark difference between using ONE Moveslot to deal with a threat, which is also useful outside of that purpose, i.e. to outrun scarfers, as opposed to running 1-2 mons simply to deal with a single threat.

Or even further, if it was such an overwhelming issue, people simply wouldn't use Ponyta- they would use something not weak to trapping , such as Dwebble, which they do- but Ponyta being used despite trapping should tell you it is not broken.
 
I think the most deplorable thing with trapping is not how you have to prepare your threats not to be revenge-killed. Actually, having trapping to deal with them is healthy to me, because otherwise, things such as Ponyta have fairly limited switchins (see, only Trace Porygon and bulkier Waters really). Therefore, trapping in LC acts as another pillar which helps deal with top metagame threats, just like things like Mienfoo or Vullaby are/were.

To me, the saddest thing with the presence of trapping in the metagame is how it limits options to make teambuilding more varied, invalidating the likes of Trubbish as a Fighting-check which could have otherwise been a fairly interesting pick, Croagunk, Elekid and as such. This is the only argument I can agree with to complain about trapping. While it is pretty sad, I understand it is in no way a good pretense to base a trapping ban on.
 
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Fiend

someguy
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The responses for our June survey were great. There were 96 total responses, which is an amazing turnout. Thank you to all of those who participated, it was genuinely important to the council to have the level of feedback that we received. There really is not much to say. I think the data speaks for itself pretty well.

These first two questions are mostly for fun, and given the population the survey is aimed towards positive scores were to be expected. Everything is formatted into a distribution because I find this to be the best way to communicate the shape of the data. You can note the higher frequency of negative responses as participants were asked to rate the current experience compared to the generational experience. I would not read into this too significantly.
Screenshot 2022-07-01 4.20.33 PM.png
Screenshot 2022-07-01 4.20.53 PM.png

The next set of questions were asking about specific suspects/retests that the community had brought up over the last months, but was limited to only what the council thought had good chances. Sorry to the Cutiefly fans, that one isn't really on the table. The major flaw with these questions is how individuals interpret the 1-5 scale. A handful of responses gave one choice a 2 and then listed that as a prefered choice in the final question. This makes the differences between a 2, 3, or 4 here fairly indistinct, but that is okay as the granularity at that level is really beyond what we are interested in.
Screenshot 2022-07-01 4.21.06 PM.png
Screenshot 2022-07-01 4.21.24 PM.png
Screenshot 2022-07-01 4.21.36 PM.png

A quick glance at these responses is rather revealing. The Vullaby retest question is the only question where the 3rd quartile (75th percentile) is a 5. All other questions were a 4 instead. Due to the granularity issue noted above I'm uncertain how significant that is alone. You can note the dearth of 5s for a Grookey suspect and the otherwise similar response pattern for the Mienfoo suspect. And of course the polarized but favored responses for the Vullaby suspect.

For the final question, we asked participants to compare these 3 options. The responses are essentially what you expect given the above, and accounting for 10 responses either unexpected answers (two second preferences, only one preference ranked not as first, no second preference, etc) the takeaway remains the same. Take a look for yourself. If I were to update the answers to reflect only preferences and use scores of prior answers to rank these options, the largest impact would be in favor of a Vullaby suspect by a few percentages. I hate sheets so you only get a table for this "corrected" entry.
Screenshot 2022-07-01 4.22.02 PM.png
unadulterated data
Screenshot 2022-07-01 4.50.10 PM.png

'corrected' data
Screenshot 2022-07-01 5.21.04 PM.png

I think the next steps are self evident. A Vullaby retest will be held shortly. Again, thank you to all who participated.
:vullaby:
 

Colin

formerly BeardedDrakon
is a Tiering Contributor
LCPL Champion
Hey, the suspect for Vullaby recently ended with a result of stay banned. I was one of the people who voted ban, and I did it because I believe that although adding Vullaby solves many problems such as the rampant speed ties and general 50 50's required to regulate powerful pokemon such as Carvanha, it also forces too much on the builder and the nasty plot set is not fun to play against in my opinion. I almost voted unban, but ultimately I voted keep ban because I believe that there are other pokemon that could be banned and the meta following such theoretical bans would likely be better in some ways, although any individual change would not change the tier as much as Vullaby joining the tier, and since I am human my meta predictions are questionable at best. before I start actual speculation, I will have you know that I make this post with the intention of figuring out "what next?" after vullaby stayed unbanned, and I request that any fallacies I may make are critiqued so that I may correct them.

Pokemon Number 1:
:ss/natu:

I have a vendetta against Natu, and I will admit ahead of time that Natu's impact on the builder is lesser than the impact of any other pokemon on this list, and does not need to be banned for that. In most scenarios, Natu functions as an offensive pivot that can dent most things with psychic or heat wave, and pivot against its more sturdy checks and maintain momentum with U-Turn. Natu also boasts great utility in magic bounce, and a solid defensive profile in being able to check ground types and poison types, as well as other pokemon including itself fairly consistently. None of what I listed above is broken in any way, and simply describes a jack of all trades offensive pivot. Natu does have one uncompetitive element though, and that is its 17 speed tier. It speed ties with Mienfoo and Grookey most notably, which is problematic as they can hit it with knock off, and it can hit them with super effective coverage. the fact that none of these, bar LO Grookey, can get one shot by each other does little to help, as across a game Mienfoo will be doing a lot, and Natu will be forced in by the poisons and possibly Ferroseed, resulting in many endgames being decided by a speed tie, and the losing player in the midgame can play a lot more recklessly by attempting to force speed ties when not taking them can mean giving up a free knock off or U-turn. I think that the way with the least collateral to resolve the speed tie problem is to remove Natu, as Mienfoo is much more depended on in a defensive backbone while Grookey is the least problematic in the speed tie department. I think that if Natu were to leave, slower fighting types would be less punishing to use on bulky offense (although still outclassed), and Ferroseed would be much more reliable in making progress.

Pokemon Number 2:
:ss/mienfoo:

Compared to removing Natu, this would be a much more drastic measure since it is on over 90% of LCPL teams, and I personally consider it mandatory on every balance and bulky offense. The reason many people want it banned is that it mandates a sturdy fight resist that doesn't crumple to knock off, and when Grookey is also considered that means a poison type most of the time. Banning it would also go a long way in reducing the speed tie problem explained in my Natu section. To me, it is much harder to predict what the meta would be if this thing got banned. however, I theorize that Natu would be even better than it already is since it outspeeds the fighters, and therefore the poison slot would be freed indirectly thanks to Natu being a great option. I also theorize that very fast offenses/HO would be better because they are the least hurt by a possible Mienfoo ban thanks to Timburr being a great one time glue. However, I also worry that if there isn't another effective glue in Mienfoo's place the meta could become much more MU fishy as foo can check most the meta and has Regenerator to stick around and U-Turn for progress.

Pokemon Number 3:
:ss/grookey:

Some people, most notably Acehunter, want this pokemon banned for its impact on the teambuilder thanks to grassy glide being a very demanding attack, and offenses that cannot handle it are not viable. Alongside Mienfoo forcing a sturdy fight resist, Grookey forcing a sturdy grass resist makes most teams forced to include a defensive poison type. In spite of its 17 speed tier, its interactions with others of the same speed are by far the least egregious thanks to grassy glide, although LO Grookey against SpDef Natu is a very obnoxious interaction, as is LO Wood Hammer Grookey vs Mienfoo. By banning Grookey, you free what offensive pokemon your team can run, as they no longer have to worry about the tier's previous most powerful priority. If grookey were to go, I think Carvanha should probably be QB + resuspected since it is bonkers even with grookey around.

Pokemon Numbers 4/5:
:ss/abra: :ss/porygon:

I put both of these 2 in the same boat, as Special offense as an archetype has forced one of Pawniard who is more powerful than Ferroseed and boasts strong priority, or Ferroseed, who is the best role compression option in the game allowing you to check water types too. Abra is less consistent, frailer, and less versatile but boasts more reliable instant power, is faster without a scarf, and can carry coverage to deny one of the steels from being an effective check, sub-punch as a midground for shed shell sets, protect for Trapinch, or even both drain punch/submission and fire punch on LO sets to have no safe pivots. Pretty much, if you face the wrong Abra set and don't identify that quickly there is nothing you can do about your steel being sniped and your trapper being counter trapped. The main point is that sometimes you just lose to Abra and there is very little you can do about it safely. on the teambuilder, Abra prevents certain Porygon checks such as Frillish from being a good alternative to a steel type. Porygon on the other hand, is the generally more consistent and more used pokemon than Abra, thanks to its agility set being a great Natu/koffing pivot and wincon, its choice scarf having amazing instant power once the steel types are removed, provided it has the right download boost. The fact that agility sets can trade themselves for Ferroseed has also proved insane on carvanha builds.


Honerable mentions to Arena Trap, Koffing

Arena trap is recognized as uncompetitive in higher tiers, however here we have grassy terrain and more counter trapping options as well as generally more instantly dangerous offense. Koffing's N-gas chokes Mienfoo, but more importantly Mareanie and Foongus making Mienfoo very dangerous long term vs most teams that don't use Koffing to put Mienfoo on a timer. Unfortunately, Koffing is too important a defensive piece to remove without other changes.

Overall: I thought this post would be a good idea to map out my thoughts since I, like many other people are wondering what is next after the Vullaby suspect. I hope that this post was useful, and if it had any false things inside it I request they be called out.
 

Corporal Levi

ninjadog of the decade
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
I would like to argue that banning Quiver Dance, and accordingly suspecting Cutiefly to be freed, is an option that has serious merits and is perhaps the best route to improve the current metagame.

1. Justifications related to tiering policy

If you're disinterested in policy considerations of suspect tests, then feel free to skip this section.

Firstly, this is purely a simple ban. The move Quiver Dance would be banned with no strings attached; it would be a single addition to the banlist.

Even if Vullaby didn't get unbanned, our willingness to suspect it presented a neat thought process: that we can play more loosely with existing policy if metagame-specific benefits are substantial enough. Policy provides an initial frame of reference from which to make tiering decisions - this is important for consistency within and across tiers, but it isn't set in stone, and it shouldn't on its own prevent decisions that are in other respects good. Both the Vullaby resuspect and a Quiver Dance ban would be to address a tangible issue with the metagame, which is its excessive speed ties.

In my opinion, re-suspecting Vullaby was actually a much greater deviation from tiering policy than banning Quiver Dance would be, because removing broken elements has been one of the cardinal rules of Smogon tiering since its inception, and unbanning Vullaby explicitly involved reintroducing a broken mon. (I realize there is some nuance to this, but either way, the majority of the playerbase initially voted it to be broken, and few users believed it to have substantially decreased in brokenness during the re-suspect.) The suspect introduced elements of metagame preference which could, at least on paper, also lead to a slippery slope of further disregarding policy.

On the other hand, banning Quiver Dance is relatively easy to justify policy-wise. The contentious aspect of this action, in terms of policy, would be that it targets the move (Quiver Dance) rather than the mon (Cutiefly). However:

a) I don't believe there is a well-defined reason to always target the mon. It's nice to establish a sense of direction for discussions into which element of an issue should be addressed, but not much else. Which is why
b) plenty of exceptions have been made, whether it means banning a move, ability, or item. The general idea to target the mon is not iron-clad at all. All of these exceptions made sense on their own, of course, and their justifications may stronger than Quiver Dance's, but this importantly means that we aren't adding brand new sections to the banlist or tiering policy. Banning the mon isn't something that needs to be emphasized if there is good reason not to.

Another consideration is that there is no collateral whatsoever involved in banning Quiver Dance instead of Cutiefly. This means that freeing Cutiefly would mechanically improve diversity, and diversity is something that we explicitly tier towards in our tiering policy. We would gain a mon and lose nothing. The mon would even be of an archetype that does not currently exist in LC (a fast fairy).

Now, the closest direct precedent to this decision would be the banning of Porygon instead of Conversion in SM. However, I think we can comfortably skirt around this precedent for two reasons:

a) Our circumstances are wildly different. We're currently nearing the end of the generation with a potential issue in competitiveness through speed ties. Addressing this issue is relatively pressing. On the other hand, the decision to ban Porygon was made at the start of SM, when there was plenty of time to develop the tier without it.
b) I believe there is a genuine argument that Quiver Dance, the move, is the broken element, which is what I'll be discussing next. (On the other hand, there was no real argument that Z-Conversion was broken, given the massive downside of requiring a Z-crystal instead of Eviolite: it required Porygon's specific strengths to be broken.)

2. Quiver Dance the move is mechanically different enough to be considered broken.

While Quiver Dance currently causes all of its users to be broken, it wouldn't make sense to call the move broken if there was another move that was identical in all but name and clearly didn't break its users. Also, Quiver Dance isn't considered banworthy in other tiers. So I will try to explain why I believe Quiver Dance is uniquely positioned to break its users a) in LC, and b) compared to other boosting moves.

Addressing Quiver Dance in LC compared to other tiers is easy. Speed boosting is much stronger in LC than in level 100 metagames because its speed tiers are heavily compressed. A relatively slow mon like Corphish is able to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame at +1, and all Choice Scarf users of relevance at +2. This is also why Quiver Dance is incomparable to Nasty Plot or Calm Mind, which are much more in line with their level of effectiveness at level 100.

As for speed boosting setup moves, Quiver Dance's closest equivalent is Dragon Dance, but these arguments should apply equally to other speed boosting moves (except for Shell Smash, which I'll get to later). The obvious benefit to Quiver Dance over Dragon Dance is increasing bulk, which grants Quiver Dance users greater setup opportunities and safety against revenge-killers. Perhaps more importantly, it allows Quiver Dance users to choose a completely different setup strategy in bulky Quiver Dance, whereas bulky Dragon Dance doesn't really exist in LC. In other words, Quiver Dance users are twice as versatile as Dragon Dance users.

A more metagame-specific factor is the fact that it favours special attackers, which LC metagames have been consistently less prepared for. There are no special burns or Weak Armor equivalents to punish special attacks, and investing in special bulk is generally more costly due to rampant Knock Offs.

While Quiver Dance isn't totally mechanically dissimilar to Dragon Dance, its effect ends up being significantly better, and that should be enough to tier it differently. If we were to draw comparisons to mons, you could perhaps think of Quiver Dance as Rufflet and Dragon Dance as Darumaka - while they have their similarities, clearly only one of them is in contention for brokenness.

In addition, I think it's fair to consider Quiver Dance's distribution across stronger mons to be an aspect that, in this particular metagame, makes it more broken than Dragon Dance. For example, in DPP OU, Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are mechanically equally uncompetitive, but Sand Veil's abusers are more capable of abusing the ability, and Sand Stream mons are stronger than Abomasnow, so Sand Veil is considered more banworthy. This goes both ways, of course - if Venipede were to gain access to Quiver Dance before the end of the gen, then Quiver Dance would no longer be broken. (Also, banning Quiver Dance would no longer be collateral-free.) In such a case, it would be trivial to revert the Quiver Dance ban and re-ban Cutiefly, so I don't think this scenario should be treated as problematic to any considerable degree.

In regards to Shell Smash, I think it's generally mechanically incomparable enough to reject as a counterargument to Quiver Dance's brokenness. Shell Smash's defense drops cause its user to be much more vulnerable to priority and revenge-kills by bulky mons, as well as just making setting up more difficult. It completely reverses Quiver Dance's allowance of bulky setup strategies. I would go as far as to argue that for Cutiefly in particular, Shell Smash might be less broken than Quiver Dance because of the loss of setup opportunities.

3. Freeing Cutiefly is likely to greatly reduce the number of 17 speed ties.

Freeing Cutiefly would immediately address 17 speed ties primarily by presenting more counterplay options to Mienfoo and Grookey. It could serve as a Grookey check that can both outspeed Grookey - meaning if Cutiefly remains outside of Grassy Glide range, it could revenge-kill even a boosted Acrobatics Grookey - and potentially outlast Grookey with Roost. It could also check Mienfoo, who would be forced to use Stone Edge to heavily damage Cutiefly. This not only introduces an element of risk to Mienfoo's play (a non-STAB Stone Edge would effectively be a free turn against anything except for opposing Cutiefly and Natu), but also means that Mienfoo isn't running Fake Out.

And of course, simply introducing a reasonably powerful 19 speed mon means less ties at 17 speed. Cutiefly wouldn't remove 17 speed ties entirely, which is an unrealistic goal, but it would hopefully bring number of ties more in line with previous LC metas.

A minor consideration is Cutiefly's benefit to diversity. It's also worth noting that Cutiefly could make lead matchup scenarios more diverse than typical Mienfoo mirrors, as Acehunter alluded to in his first suspect post, by introducing a mon that can immediately outspeed and threaten Mienfoo while pivoting out of checks afterwards.

4. Freeing Cutiefly is most likely our least extreme solution in terms of metagame impact.

At the end of SM, the decision was made not to suspect Vullaby because, by the time discussion on it had really begun to take off, there were only a few months left before the end of the gen. The worry was that such a major ban would drastically shake up the metagame and, given the short time frame, it would be unable to stabilize before becoming an old gen. I didn't agree with this decision and would currently be fine with a Mienfoo suspect; even so, this line of reasoning is understandable, and would apply just as much to a Mienfoo suspect.

Banning Quiver Dance and freeing Cutiefly isn't the only solution, of course. Banning Mienfoo, Grookey, or Natu would also reduce the number of ties, although to my understanding the majority of users don't see them as individually broken. Freeing Gastly or even Cutiefly without banning Quiver Dance would immediately present more counterplay options to Mienfoo and Grookey and similarly decrease 17 speed ties, but they are more contentious in terms of brokenness.

It would make sense to choose the solution that is likely to be least impactful to the metagame. While I can't say this conclusively, my belief is that without Quiver Dance, Cutiefly would be far worse than Mienfoo or Grookey currently are (and if I'm wrong on this, it would hopefully present itself during the suspect test).

- Outside of its speed, Cutiefly's stats are poor. It has lower SpA than Staryu (tied with Foongus) and slightly worse bulk.
- It is weak to Stealth Rock, limiting its pivoting opportunities.
- As an offensive mon, it has no exceptionally powerful STAB moves (Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, etc.)
- It's outclassed as a screener by Abra and Natu, who have access to Teleport.

Cutiefly would almost surely still be good because its typing is defensively valuable and its support movepool is fantastic. But my guess is that it would be perhaps an A- or mid A mon, and freeing it would be much easier to adapt to than banning an S or A+ mon. Given that we will only have a couple months to finalize the suspect by the time our next suspect ends, this is a major advantage over our alternatives.

Thanks for reading!
 
I support a Cutiefly suspect with the ban of Quiver Dance. Levi outlined very well in the above post the benefits it could bring to the meta, so I don't want to make a super long post reiterating what he says (honestly I'm a little tired of writing long posts after the Vull suspect). I'll just add my own perspective, however.

Personally, I think that with Vullaby remaining banned, and a Grookey suspect very unlikely, a Cutiefly resuspect would be the best option we have to resolve not only speed tie issues but most importantly the centralization. A fast Fairy type is exactly what the tier needs as a good alternative to Poison types, and would finally make a Fighting check that isn't a momentum sink for teams (and that isn't 4x rock-weak Larvesta).

On top of that, Cutiefly resists Grookey's Glide as well. I've already talked about what I think about Grookey's effect on the meta here. If Grookey remains legal for the rest of the generation, having an additional good offensive check to Grookey would be invaluable to help decentralize the meta, in my opinion, and allow for a less restrictive teambuilding in terms of archetypes. Cutiefly would do so arguably even better than Vullaby would've done if it had gotten unbanned. Cutiefly would probably also lower the value of Fighting types as a whole on teams, helping break down their omnipresence in that regard too. Unlike Vullaby, Cutiefly without Quiver Dance would probably be much less powerful on its own than Vullaby was.

Therefore, I believe that suspecting Cutiefly without Quiver Dance is the safest realistic option to solve the present meta's issues and to get a better meta to end Gen 8 on. I have historically preferred a Grookey suspect, but a Grookey ban would potentially shake up the metagame so much more, and considering we're at the end of the generation, I think we have missed our opportunity for that. A Cutiefly suspect obviously requires a lot of theorizing what a meta with Cutiefly could look like, since unlike Vullaby's case, we have little idea of what a meta with Cutiefly would look like. Therefore, I hope we get a suspect test for Cutiefly, and if we do, I hope we get a longer suspect test than the Vullaby suspect test, since we're hopping into an unknown meta, and even for the Vullaby meta, two weeks wasn't long enough to give the players a good idea of what the meta would look like. I'd hope for 3 or 4 weeks, and maybe even a suspect slot in LPL if desired.
 
Last edited:

Colin

formerly BeardedDrakon
is a Tiering Contributor
LCPL Champion
I would like to argue that banning Quiver Dance, and accordingly suspecting Cutiefly to be freed, is an option that has serious merits and is perhaps the best route to improve the current metagame.

1. Justifications related to tiering policy

If you're disinterested in policy considerations of suspect tests, then feel free to skip this section.

Firstly, this is purely a simple ban. The move Quiver Dance would be banned with no strings attached; it would be a single addition to the banlist.

Even if Vullaby didn't get unbanned, our willingness to suspect it presented a neat thought process: that we can play more loosely with existing policy if metagame-specific benefits are substantial enough. Policy provides an initial frame of reference from which to make tiering decisions - this is important for consistency within and across tiers, but it isn't set in stone, and it shouldn't on its own prevent decisions that are in other respects good. Both the Vullaby resuspect and a Quiver Dance ban would be to address a tangible issue with the metagame, which is its excessive speed ties.

In my opinion, re-suspecting Vullaby was actually a much greater deviation from tiering policy than banning Quiver Dance would be, because removing broken elements has been one of the cardinal rules of Smogon tiering since its inception, and unbanning Vullaby explicitly involved reintroducing a broken mon. (I realize there is some nuance to this, but either way, the majority of the playerbase initially voted it to be broken, and few users believed it to have substantially decreased in brokenness during the re-suspect.) The suspect introduced elements of metagame preference which could, at least on paper, also lead to a slippery slope of further disregarding policy.

On the other hand, banning Quiver Dance is relatively easy to justify policy-wise. The contentious aspect of this action, in terms of policy, would be that it targets the move (Quiver Dance) rather than the mon (Cutiefly). However:

a) I don't believe there is a well-defined reason to always target the mon. It's nice to establish a sense of direction for discussions into which element of an issue should be addressed, but not much else. Which is why
b) plenty of exceptions have been made, whether it means banning a move, ability, or item. The general idea to target the mon is not iron-clad at all. All of these exceptions made sense on their own, of course, and their justifications may stronger than Quiver Dance's, but this importantly means that we aren't adding brand new sections to the banlist or tiering policy. Banning the mon isn't something that needs to be emphasized if there is good reason not to.

Another consideration is that there is no collateral whatsoever involved in banning Quiver Dance instead of Cutiefly. This means that freeing Cutiefly would mechanically improve diversity, and diversity is something that we explicitly tier towards in our tiering policy. We would gain a mon and lose nothing. The mon would even be of an archetype that does not currently exist in LC (a fast fairy).

Now, the closest direct precedent to this decision would be the banning of Porygon instead of Conversion in SM. However, I think we can comfortably skirt around this precedent for two reasons:

a) Our circumstances are wildly different. We're currently nearing the end of the generation with a potential issue in competitiveness through speed ties. Addressing this issue is relatively pressing. On the other hand, the decision to ban Porygon was made at the start of SM, when there was plenty of time to develop the tier without it.
b) I believe there is a genuine argument that Quiver Dance, the move, is the broken element, which is what I'll be discussing next. (On the other hand, there was no real argument that Z-Conversion was broken, given the massive downside of requiring a Z-crystal instead of Eviolite: it required Porygon's specific strengths to be broken.)

2. Quiver Dance the move is mechanically different enough to be considered broken.

While Quiver Dance currently causes all of its users to be broken, it wouldn't make sense to call the move broken if there was another move that was identical in all but name and clearly didn't break its users. Also, Quiver Dance isn't considered banworthy in other tiers. So I will try to explain why I believe Quiver Dance is uniquely positioned to break its users a) in LC, and b) compared to other boosting moves.

Addressing Quiver Dance in LC compared to other tiers is easy. Speed boosting is much stronger in LC than in level 100 metagames because its speed tiers are heavily compressed. A relatively slow mon like Corphish is able to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame at +1, and all Choice Scarf users of relevance at +2. This is also why Quiver Dance is incomparable to Nasty Plot or Calm Mind, which are much more in line with their level of effectiveness at level 100.

As for speed boosting setup moves, Quiver Dance's closest equivalent is Dragon Dance, but these arguments should apply equally to other speed boosting moves (except for Shell Smash, which I'll get to later). The obvious benefit to Quiver Dance over Dragon Dance is increasing bulk, which grants Quiver Dance users greater setup opportunities and safety against revenge-killers. Perhaps more importantly, it allows Quiver Dance users to choose a completely different setup strategy in bulky Quiver Dance, whereas bulky Dragon Dance doesn't really exist in LC. In other words, Quiver Dance users are twice as versatile as Dragon Dance users.

A more metagame-specific factor is the fact that it favours special attackers, which LC metagames have been consistently less prepared for. There are no special burns or Weak Armor equivalents to punish special attacks, and investing in special bulk is generally more costly due to rampant Knock Offs.

While Quiver Dance isn't totally mechanically dissimilar to Dragon Dance, its effect ends up being significantly better, and that should be enough to tier it differently. If we were to draw comparisons to mons, you could perhaps think of Quiver Dance as Rufflet and Dragon Dance as Darumaka - while they have their similarities, clearly only one of them is in contention for brokenness.

In addition, I think it's fair to consider Quiver Dance's distribution across stronger mons to be an aspect that, in this particular metagame, makes it more broken than Dragon Dance. For example, in DPP OU, Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are mechanically equally uncompetitive, but Sand Veil's abusers are more capable of abusing the ability, and Sand Stream mons are stronger than Abomasnow, so Sand Veil is considered more banworthy. This goes both ways, of course - if Venipede were to gain access to Quiver Dance before the end of the gen, then Quiver Dance would no longer be broken. (Also, banning Quiver Dance would no longer be collateral-free.) In such a case, it would be trivial to revert the Quiver Dance ban and re-ban Cutiefly, so I don't think this scenario should be treated as problematic to any considerable degree.

In regards to Shell Smash, I think it's generally mechanically incomparable enough to reject as a counterargument to Quiver Dance's brokenness. Shell Smash's defense drops cause its user to be much more vulnerable to priority and revenge-kills by bulky mons, as well as just making setting up more difficult. It completely reverses Quiver Dance's allowance of bulky setup strategies. I would go as far as to argue that for Cutiefly in particular, Shell Smash might be less broken than Quiver Dance because of the loss of setup opportunities.

3. Freeing Cutiefly is likely to greatly reduce the number of 17 speed ties.

Freeing Cutiefly would immediately address 17 speed ties primarily by presenting more counterplay options to Mienfoo and Grookey. It could serve as a Grookey check that can both outspeed Grookey - meaning if Cutiefly remains outside of Grassy Glide range, it could revenge-kill even a boosted Acrobatics Grookey - and potentially outlast Grookey with Roost. It could also check Mienfoo, who would be forced to use Stone Edge to heavily damage Cutiefly. This not only introduces an element of risk to Mienfoo's play (a non-STAB Stone Edge would effectively be a free turn against anything except for opposing Cutiefly and Natu), but also means that Mienfoo isn't running Fake Out.

And of course, simply introducing a reasonably powerful 19 speed mon means less ties at 17 speed. Cutiefly wouldn't remove 17 speed ties entirely, which is an unrealistic goal, but it would hopefully bring number of ties more in line with previous LC metas.

A minor consideration is Cutiefly's benefit to diversity. It's also worth noting that Cutiefly could make lead matchup scenarios more diverse than typical Mienfoo mirrors, as Acehunter alluded to in his first suspect post, by introducing a mon that can immediately outspeed and threaten Mienfoo while pivoting out of checks afterwards.

4. Freeing Cutiefly is most likely our least extreme solution in terms of metagame impact.

At the end of SM, the decision was made not to suspect Vullaby because, by the time discussion on it had really begun to take off, there were only a few months left before the end of the gen. The worry was that such a major ban would drastically shake up the metagame and, given the short time frame, it would be unable to stabilize before becoming an old gen. I didn't agree with this decision and would currently be fine with a Mienfoo suspect; even so, this line of reasoning is understandable, and would apply just as much to a Mienfoo suspect.

Banning Quiver Dance and freeing Cutiefly isn't the only solution, of course. Banning Mienfoo, Grookey, or Natu would also reduce the number of ties, although to my understanding the majority of users don't see them as individually broken. Freeing Gastly or even Cutiefly without banning Quiver Dance would immediately present more counterplay options to Mienfoo and Grookey and similarly decrease 17 speed ties, but they are more contentious in terms of brokenness.

It would make sense to choose the solution that is likely to be least impactful to the metagame. While I can't say this conclusively, my belief is that without Quiver Dance, Cutiefly would be far worse than Mienfoo or Grookey currently are (and if I'm wrong on this, it would hopefully present itself during the suspect test).

- Outside of its speed, Cutiefly's stats are poor. It has lower SpA than Staryu (tied with Foongus) and slightly worse bulk.
- It is weak to Stealth Rock, limiting its pivoting opportunities.
- As an offensive mon, it has no exceptionally powerful STAB moves (Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, etc.)
- It's outclassed as a screener by Abra and Natu, who have access to Teleport.

Cutiefly would almost surely still be good because its typing is defensively valuable and its support movepool is fantastic. But my guess is that it would be perhaps an A- or mid A mon, and freeing it would be much easier to adapt to than banning an S or A+ mon. Given that we will only have a couple months to finalize the suspect by the time our next suspect ends, this is a major advantage over our alternatives.

Thanks for reading!
Hey, to me, this is an eye opening idea; I didn't consider Cutiefly since it was banned long before I joined the tier and on paper it looks like a really good way to reduce the Mienfoo + Grookey + Natu centralization since it beats the former two and outspeeds Natu. However, I am still skeptical since I worry CM will just replace quiver dance, as even though it doesn't raise speed Cutiefly already has a speed stat effectively only rivaled by Ponyta and physical scarfers (the rest are not dangerous), and while that would be an improvement moonblast + psychic + CM + roost would be plenty enough to be a lethal wincon against most common builds rn, even if you emphesise Ferroseed and fire types. Offensive pivot sets and possibly even 3 attacks roost could be overwhelming with the right support, as with a trapper to dispatch Ponyta and Ferroseed the combination of Moonblast + Psychic would have its safe switch ins reduced to Bulky Porygon and other similar mixed walls. Being rocks weak and much more reliably trappable by rock slide LO diglett does help its case, but am dubious of Cutiefly in the tier.
 

Drifting

in my glo stance smokin' dope
is a Tiering Contributor
If we're talking about solutions to the issues in the tier I suppose I might as well start beating the drum again.

For reference, I still think the easiest solution to the meta's problems is to ban Mienfoo, but if the poll was anything to go by the majority of people are against that for some reason. So instead of that I think there's another solution that would make the tier way healthier:

Arena Trap

:diglett: :trapinch:

Literally every other tier has figured out that trapping is an uncompetitive ability except Little Cup for some reason, and this only gets worse when the primary trapping mon is one of the top 5 mons in the tier (Diglett is currently more viable in LC than Dugtrio ever was in the gens it's been banned from OU).

Arena Trap's overwhelming nature has had several clear negative effects on the metagame

1. It's the reason Koffing is overwhelmingly the best poison type
2. It's the thing that makes mons like Vullaby too strong (imo)
3. It basically eradicates 90% of mons weak to ground from the meta. As Digletts start to run stuff like sludge bomb more mons like Morelull also just become obsolete.

Trapinch is weaker but the same arguments also apply to it, the issue is clearly with Arena Trap being uncompetitive, as it removes a core part of the gameplay and skill expression of pokemon - switching.

Anyone reading this who has experience in other tiers obviously already knows this, so I'll refrain from continuing to beat a horse that has been dead for years and talk about some of the mons that would get freed up if Arena Trap was canned.

:mareanie:

Pretty obvious, Mareanie is a pretty good pokemon currently but without Arena Trap, choosing between it and Koffing would actually be something you have to think about instead of just defaulting to Koff on most teams.

:diglett: :diglett-alola:

Diglett would still be viable due to it's 20 speed tier and good typing, scarf sets would probably be more common. Alola Diglett would also become a viable mon that has cool offensive quality in it's own right.

:stunky:

The current speed tie issue would be ameliorated by an Arena Trap ban in my opinion. This is because of a lot of mons that would become viable (including alola dig) but I’m gonna use Stunky to talk about it because it’s one of the best examples, as it beats all three of Foo, Natu and Grookey. This mon is a lot of fun in general and I love using it but unfortunately whenever I do it just gets one kill at most and then dies to diglett with no agency from me.

These are just a couple examples off the top of my head. Other mons that would become (more) viable include:

:croagunk: :chinchou: :cufant: :morelull: :elekid: :magnemite: :growlithe: :helioptile: :litten: :onix: :salandit: :scorbunny: :trubbish: :vulpix: :sandshrew-alola:

And probably a shit-ton more that I’m forgetting or can’t even begin to speculate on like Shinx.

If we were to match every other tier and ban Arena Trap, then not only would players have more agency in the gameplay itself, as you can’t just a lose a mon with no power over the situation, but it would introduce a huge amount of diversity in what mons can be used that would lessen the current issues (speed ties, overcentralisation, and things like pory/diglett or carv/diglett feeling overwhelming to deal with).

I also believe that if Diglett was gone mons like Vull and Cutiefly could potentially be balanced enough to be unbanned.

I see literally no reason why the tier is continuing to be stubborn in keeping this ability around.

(Side note: if you’re about to reply that I can’t compare other tiers where Arena Trap is uncontroversially banned to LC because LC has such different mechanics, that argument doesn’t hold water when you consider that Diglett and Dugtrio do exactly the same thing, except Diglett is actually able to trap more things because its stats are less relatively bad in LC than Dugtrio’s are in OU).
 

DuGuo

Just say love me.
is a Tiering Contributor
Well, I also support a Cutiefly suspect with the ban of Quiver Dance. I haven't played meta with cutiefly, but it can be expected that this will make meta more energetic and solve a series of problems. Like acehunter, I don't want to talk at length. But this is really a great way to solve the problem.

During the period of vullaby sus, I think we have deeply realized the current situation that meta needs to change, but vullaby has more impact on meta, resulting in keep banned. In contrast, cutiefly without quiver dance seems more suitable for ending this meta. This means that the problems of mienfoo, grookey and natu will be solved to some extent. btw, Acehunter was right, We don't know what kind of meta it is, if it is implemented, we need more testing time.

Anyway, this is less extreme than sus mienfoo/grookey, and it is easier to be recognized by everyone. I hope we can have a better lc, thanks for reading a lc player who plays badly.
 
I have mixed feelings about Cutiefly. To be honest, the idea of a possible unban of Cutiely has been on my mind for some time.

Regarding the tiering policy, levi's post is extremely relevant. It wouldn't be the first time the LC banned an attack, like Sticky Web or Baton Pass. Of course, we shouldn't fool ourselves: this ban would indeed take important liberties with the previous ones, since the target of the ban is not the problematic element that needs to be corrected in order to solve an immediate practical problem of the metagame: it would therefore set a precedent. Let's say it's a trick, but it doesn't seem to me to explicitly contradict Smogon's tiering policy. And so, I think it's a reasoning that seems difficult to attack at the level of tiering rules. Especially since Quiver Dance can indeed be considered as a broken move for the reasons that Levi detailed, even if we remain speculative because of its low distribution.

The arrival of Cutiefly in the metagame would indeed solve the ties problems, and I think another argument that is important to consider is the unique flexibility of Cutiefly which I think could allow the build to diversify. Cutie could possibly allow structures without poison type, Cutie is a very good defog, can be used as an offensive or defensive pivot... In short, for me it is an excellent addition to compress roles and balance the metagame, allowing for less stereotyped structures in SS LC. Cutie is very good against Mienfoo and Grookey, but it can also check Carvanha for example. I think the variety of pokemons it can check or counter can allow for a much greater variety of teams. At least, in theory.

Now, I also have a fear: I'm just not 100% certain that the loss of Quiver Dance is a sufficient nerf in some way and I have my doubt about some possible adverse effects. We could look at the CM set for instance, which is just a bad quiver dance set but functions the same way. One major difference between QD and CM is this calc :

236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Cutiefly: 16-21 (80 - 105%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Of course, one can assume that given Mienfoo's prevalence and Cutiefly's role, it won't be very difficult to force him to lose his Eviolite: even in the case where Cutiefly is more invested in defense (which would be very costly for the Calm Mind set, by the way), Diglett should be able to get the revenge kill fairly easily unlike the QD set that used to outspeed him after one turn. It can also be argued that this version suffers from an extremely painful 4MSS (like the previous one, but worse) and that the inability to outspeed Ponyta is extremely annoying. Nevertheless, I think Cutiefly would clearly be better than an A- rank pokémon. It is an extremely spammable pokémon, easy to put on any team, with great offensive, defensive and even support utility depending on its set. It has a lot of viable sets and a lot of options which makes it very difficult to predict. However, a crucial difference between Cutiefly and Vullaby is that Cutiefly's counters are generally the same depending on the set, unlike Vullaby. I find this pokémon much healthier than Vullaby for this reason, especially since it can't knock off its checks (+ some of its counters do have recovery)

What worries me a bit is the possibility that this pokemon could become very centralizing. Mienfoo will be less centralizing, that's a fact. But I hope it won't be at the expense of forcing Diglett / Ponyta / Iron Head Ferroseed for example, or replacing 17 spd ties by 19 spd ties even if i don't think it will happen (it's mainly cutie v cutie and cutie v pony when pony is in the range of a +1 mblast/psychic). Nevertheless, there is no really good solution. I was personally in favour of a Mienfoo suspect, but let's face it: if Vullaby didn't manage to get the unban with such massive support from most of the current LC top players, then a Mienfoo suspect cannot succeed this gen, it's a lost cause. But still, most people don't like the current metagame, and I understand, I don't like it too much myself. And that's why i'll also support a cutiefly suspect / unban (I would prefer a suspect though, but frankly i don't think that Cutie without qd is broken)
 
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TL;DR: Ban Mienfoo, Ban Arena Trap, free Cutiefly while banning Quiver Dance.

A Mienfoo suspect/ban iirc has never been succesfull ever since it came out to the light of the day. Even if it's literally a mandatory pokemon LC has always refused to to crap to it because... idk, it's LITERALLY on every team, how can people not be fed up?
I like the idea of banning QD and unbanni cutiefly. If it turns out it's a bad idea, like some of you wrote... YOU REVERSE EVERYTHING. It's not difficult to imagine. You all sound more scared of doing anything to the meta than I'm scared of making mistakes in life.
Since I hate this meta so much, i'd love to see 1) Qutie unbanned with QD banned. It's something different, fresh air. It is going to be yet another mandatory pokemon, so another horrible thing (oh wow, Koffing or Cutie? So many options, so much diversity) but at least a different mandatory pokemon.
2) Ban arena trap. We already banned it in a previous gen because it was crap to play against. Return to that state of mind, please.
3) Another cool, amazing, wonderful option would be to finally kill Foo. Remove it from our collective unconcious. LC will always be better without it (if we could automatically ban it at the start of every gen it would be paradisiac), since teams will never be 5+Foo again. Or, in this gen (BDSP is played by literally no one, sadly), 4 mandatory pokemon + 2 not really free choices.
If nothing is done, I hope that 8gen LC dies and no one will ever play LC again until gen 9, because it's the worse gen I've ever seen since I started playing pokemon. Literally not a single iteration of the gen has been fun, that I can remember.
 

LilyAC

encore encore encore
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Posting in support of freeing Cutiefly

Personally I think it might be balanced even with QD, but if we have to ban QD that's fine too. Policy shouldn't get in the way of a simple ban with no collateral that benefits everyone. It's better for us to apply common sense than apply some rigid rules that aren't specialised for every situation.

Mienfoo ban is the next-best option. But there's 2 problems with it:
1) The meta could take a longer time to develop with such a large change
2) Similar to Vullaby, Mienfoo is a mon that can be used in many ways throughout the match. We saw that banning Vullaby reduced the player's options, making play more linear (see acehunter's posts in the vull suspect thread). We might experience the same thing if we ban Mienfoo... but this is just a guess.

For these reasons I'm undecided on whether I'd support a Foo ban or not. I'd much prefer to see a Cutie suspect first.
 
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Acknowledging a possible Cutiefly unban:

I personally started my LC career far after Cutiefly was banned, but looking at what it had back then, I could understand why it'd be banned. Personally, in the current meta, Cutiefly could fit in well without QD. It helps with a few main issues that I'll state.

1. The Foo

Cutiefly has a good Matchup into Fighting types, quadruply resisting their stab, and resisting Knock Off. Obviously, this makes it sound like a great Mienfoo check. It can outspeed, kill with Moonblast, or U-Turn for Momentum. It would also bring diversity to the pool of solid Mienfoo checks. (Koffing and Cutiefly, so expansive right)

2. It would help the Speed Tie issue.

It hits 19 speed, the same as the quite fast Ponyta and Abra. It would help with speed ties between Mienfoo and Natu, as well as Grookey. Having a 19 speed tier Pokemon could help with this.

3. It would bring a relative Fairy type into the metagame.

Even with all the poison types running around, Cutiefly is still excellent at doing it's job as a Fighting type check. It's also able to reliably heal itself with Roost, making it's defensive presence arguably more important than that of it's offensive presence.

Personally, I'd be interested to see what a QDless Cutiefly meta would look like. I'm all for a possible unban, but let me know what you think.
 

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