Metagame Workshop

[SadisticMystic]

Mega Ztonez

Metagame Premise: Similar to Mix and Mega, there's no limit to the number of mega evolutions per team (though here they do at least have to use their regular stone). After a Pokemon Mega Evolves, it can use its Mega Stone as a Z-crystal, powering up any move that matches one of its (post-mega) types. You cannot use a Z-move on the same turn as the mega evolution takes place, because the "mega evolve" icon hogs the same piece of screen real estate as long as it's an option, and there's still a limit of one Z-move instance per Pokemon (as opposed to the usual one per team).

Mechanics clarifications:

• The mega stone is the Z-crystal, in that you actually need to have it. If Ditto transforms into something that's mega evolved, it will not be able to use any Z-moves (unless it packed the right Z-crystal or Mega Stone from the get go, and in that case why even bother using Ditto?)
• If you have, say, Mega Latias that used Reflect Type to change its type, the engine still remembers that Latiasite is "supposed" to be associated with Dragon/Psychic, and will not let you Z-ify moves of any other types.
• Other than these mega/Z-move mechanics, regular OU rules apply. There could be a case for removing the evasion clause, since Z-moves everywhere will just laugh at it, but really no reason to.

Threats/Metagaming:
Wallbreakers galore, pretty much. Charizard-Mega-Y Z-Fire Blast? More like, Charizard-Mega-why-not?

• 252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken-Mega in Sun: 317-373 (105.3 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (that's an enemy who's not even legal in OU, and that's not even Z-Blast Burn!)

What if we tried more Pure Power?

• 252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega All-Out Pummeling (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 291-342 (96.6 - 113.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (not that you'd ever do this, since you probably have Ice Punch anyway, and Latios is faster and blows Medicham away before it gets the chance)

The one saving grace about things like these, of course, is that the user has to survive the first turn before it's able to unleash the Z-move on the second, so anything that's capable of OHKOing without using a Z-move can avert having to face calcs like that, at least for a while. (Protect says: "Hey Beedrill! I missed you! Can't you find a place in your heart to take me back again?" And of course Medicham has a pretty easy time evolving safely due to Fake Out, but then it has one less move to use for coverage.) Protect in general might see more use here, even if you full expect to face a Z-move, just because stopping 75% of a nuke is a lot better than not stopping any of it, and then their arsenal of nukes is down by one.
Setup, especially setup that's off-limits for the first turn, seems like it'd be pretty weak here, but who wouldn't want to see Mega Gyarados use Z-Splash just once in their life? And of course there's also mind games like expecting a frail lead to Protect on the first turn, so you do something that won't be wasted into Protect, only to find that they used the turn to set up after all.
Defensively, the fact that status moves often have a type disconnect with the Pokemon that tend to use them leaves them less well-suited for rules like this. Z-Psych Up, for instance, is a useful effect in copying any boosts they might have and getting a one-time 100% health refill, but since it's a Normal move, no megas can actually make use of that except Audino. Z-Haze also has no STAB megas whatsoever. I guess...at least Sableye gets Z-Spite?

Nothing is requiring you to use nothing but megas, though. There are some options out there like Porygon-Z with Z-Conversion, and that's a role that (especially with the option to audible into Z-Hyper Beam instead) isn't really replicated by any existing mega, so when it's not impinging on its teammates' ability to use Z-moves as well, you might still see some of that. Z-Memento, if you can find a reasonable use case for that, is probably best off being used by a non-mega anyway.
The fact that the "mega evolution" button normally covers up the "Z-move" button could also give rise to something called the Mega Stone Lure: send out a Pokemon that looks like it might mega evolve, but you gave it a Z-crystal instead. Obviously you can't mega evolve with that, and the crystal can only cover one type (though it isn't limited to being a STAB type) instead of potentially two, but that's the only way that you can enable it to use a Z-move right away on turn 1, which they might not be expecting. Certainly it won't hit as hard as it would with its mega stats, but sometimes being able to go off one turn sooner can be enough of a difference maker. Think something like physical Pidgeot with Z-Mirror Move, which gives +2 Attack and Z-ifies the opponent's most recent move, regardless of its type.

Questions:

• Are there any non-mega inhabitants of Ubers that are so notably weakened in a fast-paced format like this, that it makes sense to let them drop?
• Could Baton Pass even be worth legalizing, either in full or in some limiting form?
• Should status Z-moves on megas get a different arrangement that doesn't rely on them matching a type, so that some more walls might be viable?

 

[Summonerrisa4o1]

Mega Ztonez

Metagame Premise: Similar to Mix and Mega, there's no limit to the number of mega evolutions per team (though here they do at least have to use their regular stone). After a Pokemon Mega Evolves, it can use its Mega Stone as a Z-crystal, powering up any move that matches one of its (post-mega) types. You cannot use a Z-move on the same turn as the mega evolution takes place, because the "mega evolve" icon hogs the same piece of screen real estate as long as it's an option, and there's still a limit of one Z-move instance per Pokemon (as opposed to the usual one per team).

Mechanics clarifications:

• The mega stone is the Z-crystal, in that you actually need to have it. If Ditto transforms into something that's mega evolved, it will not be able to use any Z-moves (unless it packed the right Z-crystal or Mega Stone from the get go, and in that case why even bother using Ditto?)
• If you have, say, Mega Latias that used Reflect Type to change its type, the engine still remembers that Latiasite is "supposed" to be associated with Dragon/Psychic, and will not let you Z-ify moves of any other types.
• Other than these mega/Z-move mechanics, regular OU rules apply. There could be a case for removing the evasion clause, since Z-moves everywhere will just laugh at it, but really no reason to.

Threats/Metagaming:
Wallbreakers galore, pretty much. Charizard-Mega-Y Z-Fire Blast? More like, Charizard-Mega-why-not?

• 252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken-Mega in Sun: 317-373 (105.3 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (that's an enemy who's not even legal in OU, and that's not even Z-Blast Burn!)

What if we tried more Pure Power?

• 252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega All-Out Pummeling (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 291-342 (96.6 - 113.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (not that you'd ever do this, since you probably have Ice Punch anyway, and Latios is faster and blows Medicham away before it gets the chance)

The one saving grace about things like these, of course, is that the user has to survive the first turn before it's able to unleash the Z-move on the second, so anything that's capable of OHKOing without using a Z-move can avert having to face calcs like that, at least for a while. (Protect says: "Hey Beedrill! I missed you! Can't you find a place in your heart to take me back again?" And of course Medicham has a pretty easy time evolving safely due to Fake Out, but then it has one less move to use for coverage.) Protect in general might see more use here, even if you full expect to face a Z-move, just because stopping 75% of a nuke is a lot better than not stopping any of it, and then their arsenal of nukes is down by one.
Setup, especially setup that's off-limits for the first turn, seems like it'd be pretty weak here, but who wouldn't want to see Mega Gyarados use Z-Splash just once in their life? And of course there's also mind games like expecting a frail lead to Protect on the first turn, so you do something that won't be wasted into Protect, only to find that they used the turn to set up after all.
Defensively, the fact that status moves often have a type disconnect with the Pokemon that tend to use them leaves them less well-suited for rules like this. Z-Psych Up, for instance, is a useful effect in copying any boosts they might have and getting a one-time 100% health refill, but since it's a Normal move, no megas can actually make use of that except Audino. Z-Haze also has no STAB megas whatsoever. I guess...at least Sableye gets Z-Spite?

Nothing is requiring you to use nothing but megas, though. There are some options out there like Porygon-Z with Z-Conversion, and that's a role that (especially with the option to audible into Z-Hyper Beam instead) isn't really replicated by any existing mega, so when it's not impinging on its teammates' ability to use Z-moves as well, you might still see some of that. Z-Memento, if you can find a reasonable use case for that, is probably best off being used by a non-mega anyway.
The fact that the "mega evolution" button normally covers up the "Z-move" button could also give rise to something called the Mega Stone Lure: send out a Pokemon that looks like it might mega evolve, but you gave it a Z-crystal instead. Obviously you can't mega evolve with that, and the crystal can only cover one type (though it isn't limited to being a STAB type) instead of potentially two, but that's the only way that you can enable it to use a Z-move right away on turn 1, which they might not be expecting. Certainly it won't hit as hard as it would with its mega stats, but sometimes being able to go off one turn sooner can be enough of a difference maker. Think something like physical Pidgeot with Z-Mirror Move, which gives +2 Attack and Z-ifies the opponent's most recent move, regardless of its type.

Questions:

• Are there any non-mega inhabitants of Ubers that are so notably weakened in a fast-paced format like this, that it makes sense to let them drop?
• Could Baton Pass even be worth legalizing, either in full or in some limiting form?
• Should status Z-moves on megas get a different arrangement that doesn't rely on them matching a type, so that some more walls might be viable?

Are megas allowed to use the z-moves they are granted an infinite number of times(like in infinite z), or only once(like in OU or any other normal-ish meta)?

Sorry if I sound really stupid for asking that.

Statboosting seems severely OP(regardless of whether this works like infinite z)and as you mentioned earlier, ditto will be nerfed; I'd say baton pass needs a ban.

deoxys-defense would be nerfed, as anyone and anything that's a mega could kill it by statboosting sufficiently.(if this works like infinite z, that is)

Other than mega sableye and mega slowbro, I don't think there are many tanky megas.

This is possibly one of the best metagame ideas I've ever heard. Hope it gets approved!

 

[SadisticMystic]

Each Pokemon can only use one Z-move, and only once (no Infinite Z shenanigans here, so each team is hard-capped at 6 Z-moves per match).

 

[Reviloja753]

Each Pokemon can only use one Z-move, and only once (no Infinite Z shenanigans here, so each team is hard-capped at 6 Z-moves per match).

So a person can use multiple Z moves in a battle, but only one per Pokemon?

 

[lydian]

While I like the concept of Ztonez I feel it would just end up with a team with 6 Megas and just overall increase Megas' viability for no actual reason. Using a non Mega Pokemon would be quite a drawback and idk if I personally would be willing to play it. Again, cool concept though.

 

[Deleted User 400951]

Mega Ztonez

Metagame Premise: Similar to Mix and Mega, there's no limit to the number of mega evolutions per team (though here they do at least have to use their regular stone). After a Pokemon Mega Evolves, it can use its Mega Stone as a Z-crystal, powering up any move that matches one of its (post-mega) types. You cannot use a Z-move on the same turn as the mega evolution takes place, because the "mega evolve" icon hogs the same piece of screen real estate as long as it's an option, and there's still a limit of one Z-move instance per Pokemon (as opposed to the usual one per team).

Mechanics clarifications:

• The mega stone is the Z-crystal, in that you actually need to have it. If Ditto transforms into something that's mega evolved, it will not be able to use any Z-moves (unless it packed the right Z-crystal or Mega Stone from the get go, and in that case why even bother using Ditto?)
• If you have, say, Mega Latias that used Reflect Type to change its type, the engine still remembers that Latiasite is "supposed" to be associated with Dragon/Psychic, and will not let you Z-ify moves of any other types.
• Other than these mega/Z-move mechanics, regular OU rules apply. There could be a case for removing the evasion clause, since Z-moves everywhere will just laugh at it, but really no reason to.

Threats/Metagaming:
Wallbreakers galore, pretty much. Charizard-Mega-Y Z-Fire Blast? More like, Charizard-Mega-why-not?

• 252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken-Mega in Sun: 317-373 (105.3 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (that's an enemy who's not even legal in OU, and that's not even Z-Blast Burn!)

What if we tried more Pure Power?

• 252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega All-Out Pummeling (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 291-342 (96.6 - 113.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (not that you'd ever do this, since you probably have Ice Punch anyway, and Latios is faster and blows Medicham away before it gets the chance)

The one saving grace about things like these, of course, is that the user has to survive the first turn before it's able to unleash the Z-move on the second, so anything that's capable of OHKOing without using a Z-move can avert having to face calcs like that, at least for a while. (Protect says: "Hey Beedrill! I missed you! Can't you find a place in your heart to take me back again?" And of course Medicham has a pretty easy time evolving safely due to Fake Out, but then it has one less move to use for coverage.) Protect in general might see more use here, even if you full expect to face a Z-move, just because stopping 75% of a nuke is a lot better than not stopping any of it, and then their arsenal of nukes is down by one.
Setup, especially setup that's off-limits for the first turn, seems like it'd be pretty weak here, but who wouldn't want to see Mega Gyarados use Z-Splash just once in their life? And of course there's also mind games like expecting a frail lead to Protect on the first turn, so you do something that won't be wasted into Protect, only to find that they used the turn to set up after all.
Defensively, the fact that status moves often have a type disconnect with the Pokemon that tend to use them leaves them less well-suited for rules like this. Z-Psych Up, for instance, is a useful effect in copying any boosts they might have and getting a one-time 100% health refill, but since it's a Normal move, no megas can actually make use of that except Audino. Z-Haze also has no STAB megas whatsoever. I guess...at least Sableye gets Z-Spite?

Nothing is requiring you to use nothing but megas, though. There are some options out there like Porygon-Z with Z-Conversion, and that's a role that (especially with the option to audible into Z-Hyper Beam instead) isn't really replicated by any existing mega, so when it's not impinging on its teammates' ability to use Z-moves as well, you might still see some of that. Z-Memento, if you can find a reasonable use case for that, is probably best off being used by a non-mega anyway.
The fact that the "mega evolution" button normally covers up the "Z-move" button could also give rise to something called the Mega Stone Lure: send out a Pokemon that looks like it might mega evolve, but you gave it a Z-crystal instead. Obviously you can't mega evolve with that, and the crystal can only cover one type (though it isn't limited to being a STAB type) instead of potentially two, but that's the only way that you can enable it to use a Z-move right away on turn 1, which they might not be expecting. Certainly it won't hit as hard as it would with its mega stats, but sometimes being able to go off one turn sooner can be enough of a difference maker. Think something like physical Pidgeot with Z-Mirror Move, which gives +2 Attack and Z-ifies the opponent's most recent move, regardless of its type.

Questions:

• Are there any non-mega inhabitants of Ubers that are so notably weakened in a fast-paced format like this, that it makes sense to let them drop?
• Could Baton Pass even be worth legalizing, either in full or in some limiting form?
• Should status Z-moves on megas get a different arrangement that doesn't rely on them matching a type, so that some more walls might be viable?

This sounds cool, but there are a ton of problems with the metagame. Stall is going to be completely unviable, as well as balance. There are far too many powerful wallbreakers. There's no opportunity cost to running a team with 6 megas even with Z-Crystals and the sort still being available. Mega mons tend to be balanced by the fact that they don't have access to other items, and giving them access to other items, especially a Z-Move is just straight-up unbalanced. Definitely don't unban Baton Pass lol.
However, there is something that could redeem this meta - making it Ubers based, and not having the Orbs give a Z-Move to use. That could potentially salvage something, tho tbh I doubt it as it's fundamentally a broken meta. Sorry m8.

So, here's an idea I had a while back; I posted it all the way back in May but it got no feedback (probably because it was at the bottom of a page), so I'm reposting it now (with minor edits) because I still really like the idea. I looked around and couldn't find rules against it; if I missed something somewhere, I apologize to the mods, and no hard feelings if you delete this repost. Anyway, here we go...
No Immunity

Metagame Premise: All immunities are negated.

How the Metagame Works: The premise is incredibly simple but it has a ton of competitive implications. Magearna goes from being immune to poison to being weak to it. Sableye is now dying to Close Combats. Better pack a Rapid Spinner to stop those Spikes from hitting your birds, good thing your opponent can't spinblock it! Tapu Koko giving you trouble, threatening to OHKO your Landorus-T with Thunderbolt? Paralyze it and call it a day. Should probably keep a Will-o-Wisp handy for when Charizard X switches in, too.

Potential Answers to Mechanics Questions: All immunities means all immunities - Levitate and Magnet Rise now do absolutely nothing, for example. In cases where it's an immunity + a second effect, the attack hits first and then the effect takes place. For example, let's say we have a Pokemon with Water Absorb being hit by a Water-type move. It will first take damage, and then after that (provided the damage didn't faint it), it'll then gain 25% of its max health. Also, moves that affect only a certain subset of Pokemon now affect everything. Hi there, Synchronoise! Finally, in case it wasn't clear, weaknesses and resists aren't negated, just immunities.

Potential Bans and Threats: For now, this meta will use the standard OU banlist, but with one exception: Arena Trap is banned even if the current suspect test ends with it still in OU. This meta makes it so it traps absolutely everything, even Ghosts! I don't really think I need to explain why that's stupidly busted. Other than that, maybe Tapu Koko since its Electric STAB is way more spammable now? I'm not 100% sold on it, though.

Questions For the Community: Does this seem like an interesting idea? If it does, should anything more be added to the initial banlist? Are there any mechanics questions you have that weren't addressed above? Anything else you could help me out with on this?

Thanks in advance for any feedback!

Koko will need to go for sure. TBH this doesn't really seem that interesting, it'll be so for maybe a week or two and then people will get used to it and it won't be different enough from OU. But yeah ban koko, not having grounds as an answer just breaks it entirely.

 

[Summonerrisa4o1]

Each Pokemon can only use one Z-move, and only once (no Infinite Z shenanigans here, so each team is hard-capped at 6 Z-moves per match).

Thanks for the clarification!

Was the idea inspired by the way arceus can have a new type based on his z-crystal?

 

[SadisticMystic]

It was actually inspired by the upcoming Mega Melee online competition.

 

[Summonerrisa4o1]

This is totally unrelated to any of the comments above, but:
How do I get a thread for an already existing meta?
In particular, I'm reffering to Frantic Fusions, an OM where you can 'fuse' any two pokemon together.
It's not on the OMs index, as an accepted or rejected meta, but it's quite unique and has been played by notable users such as snaquaza and urkerab.(it can be found on urkerab's server)
I don't want to 'suggest' it to the moderators who accept/reject ideas,(that would be stealing) nor do I think I'm allowed to just set up a thread without approval.
Still, I think it deserves more popularity.
If anyone is would like more information on how this meta works, PM me.

 

[SaturnZelda]

This is totally unrelated to any of the comments above, but:
How do I get a thread for an already existing meta?
In particular, I'm reffering to Frantic Fusions, an OM where you can 'fuse' any two pokemon together.
It's not on the OMs index, as an accepted or rejected meta, but it's quite unique and has been played by notable users such as snaquaza and urkerab.(it can be found on urkerab's server)
I don't want to 'suggest' it to the moderators who accept/reject ideas,(that would be stealing) nor do I think I'm allowed to just set up a thread without approval.
Still, I think it deserves more popularity.
If anyone is would like more information on how this meta works, PM me.

If it hasn't been approved by a moderator, then it isn't an official OM according to them

 

[lydian]

Wouldn't it be a little too similar to Cross Evolution though? Just a thought.

 

[Summonerrisa4o1]

Wouldn't it be a little too similar to Cross Evolution though? Just a thought.

While it sounds similar, it's very different.
While cross evolution basically combines the abilities, moves, and items, frantic fusions sort of allows you to have both pokemon at once.

I'll explain it in more detail:

let's assume we're fusing rayquaza and serperior (badass snakes are badass)

abilities:

In CE, people would make up some insane combination of air lock and contrary.
In FF, you'd get both abilities at once.

moves:

In CE, you'd get some freaky and awesome combination of two moves, along with both movesets.
in FF, you'd simply get the movesets of both. As a result, people who want a good moveset will mostly use smeargle.(you can give him prankster or something too!)

names/appearances:

in CE, you'd have a name that's a combination of both, and a sprite that combines both.
in FF, you'd have it appear as one(base pokemon) and have the name of the other one. This fusion would be called Rayquaza(Serperior) or Serperior(Rayquaza).

stats:

to be honest, I have no idea whatsoever how this works in CE.
In FF, it each base stat would be the average of that base stat for each of the two pokemon. I don't know serperior's base stats, so I'll use another example instead:

chansey's hp+shuckle's hp:270
270/2=135 hp

chansey's def+shuckle's def:235
235/2= 117 def(round down)

and so on.

as you can see, chansey(shuckle) is an excellent tank; however, there are dangerous offensive threats(think adabtability marshadow or a draco meteor serperior) that balance it out.

types:

In CE, the types are chosen by the users who make the submissions.
In frantic fusions, you can choose your types based on shininess. If your pokemon is non-shiny, it will have the first type of the base pokemon and the first type of the fused pokemon; if it's shiny, it will have the first type of the base pokemon and the second type of the other pokemon.

If I have made any omissions or errors regarding the information above, please tell me and I will fix it as quickly as possible.

TylerWithNumbers, could I get it approved despite it being somebody else's idea?


EDIT:I was stupid and confused cross evolution with fusion evolution.

 

[Yahooboo]

While it sounds similar, it's very different.
While cross evolution basically combines the abilities, moves, and items, frantic fusions sort of allows you to have both pokemon at once.

I'll explain it in more detail:

let's assume we're fusing rayquaza and serperior (badass snakes are badass)

abilities:

In CE, people would make up some insane combination of air lock and contrary.
In FF, you'd get both abilities at once.

moves:

In CE, you'd get some freaky and awesome combination of two moves, along with both movesets.
in FF, you'd simply get the movesets of both. As a result, people who want a good moveset will mostly use smeargle.(you can give him prankster or something too!)

names/appearances:

in CE, you'd have a name that's a combination of both, and a sprite that combines both.
in FF, you'd have it appear as one(base pokemon) and have the name of the other one. This fusion would be called Rayquaza(Serperior) or Serperior(Rayquaza).

stats:

to be honest, I have no idea whatsoever how this works in CE.
In FF, it each base stat would be the average of that base stat for each of the two pokemon. I don't know serperior's base stats, so I'll use another example instead:

chansey's hp+shuckle's hp:270
270/2=135 hp

chansey's def+shuckle's def:235
235/2= 117 def(round down)

and so on.

as you can see, chansey(shuckle) is an excellent tank; however, there are dangerous offensive threats(think adabtability marshadow or a draco meteor serperior) that balance it out.

types:

In CE, the types are chosen by the users who make the submissions.
In frantic fusions, you can choose your types based on shininess. If your pokemon is non-shiny, it will have the first type of the base pokemon and the first type of the fused pokemon; if it's shiny, it will have the first type of the base pokemon and the second type of the other pokemon.

If I have made any omissions or errors regarding the information above, please tell me and I will fix it as quickly as possible.

TylerWithNumbers, could I get it approved despite it being somebody else's idea?

you're thinking of the fusion evolution pet mod, not the cross evolution OM lol

 

[Summonerrisa4o1]

you're thinking of the fusion evolution pet mod, not the cross evolution OM lol

I guess I did lmao
However, cross evolution is basically a om version of fusion evolution.
I guess it could be summarized like this:
Cross Evolution is different from frantic fusions.
I give upon explaining. Just play both on a server where they're available(urkerab's or dragon heaven, you can challenge the bot on urkerab's)

 

[Yahooboo]

However, cross evolution is basically a om version of fusion evolution.

nah they're a hell of a lot different

 

[drampa's grandpa]

Summonerrisa4o1
I think the basic answer to your original question is probably that you would submit the meta like any other, despite being on another server. As Tyler said if it hasn't been approved then it's not really an om and isn't going to get a thread.

You'd also likely need to get creation from the original creator of the meta, whoever that may be.

 

[Summonerrisa4o1]

Summonerrisa4o1
I think the basic answer to your original question is probably that you would submit the meta like any other, despite being on another server. As Tyler said if it hasn't been approved then it's not really an om and isn't going to get a thread.

You'd also likely need to get creation from the original creator of the meta, whoever that may be.

Thanks! Hopefully I won't have too much trouble.

EDIT: I've been searching around a while, and still haven't found an answer. It's made me appreciate the hard work of whoever put VCG 2017 on showdown, even though I'm not a VCG fan myself.
credit to Urkerab for being very helpful.

 

[blergsid]

PERMASTATUS

Premise: what if all status moves that used to linger after being used(ex. tailwind, weather, or terrains) now stay around forever! To clarify, these status conditions can only be permatriggered by moves, not abilities. Any thing that would take them away normally, such as a new weather condition or using trick room while its already up will remove it, and anything that is removed upon a switch will still be gone.

Threats: weather teams, obviously. They will, however, need to use the move rather than switch-in ability to create weather, and it can still be removed by rivals, causing anti-weather mons like t-tar or alolan-ninetales to become more common. Screens and aurora veil will also be very good, but using brick break or defog will remove them. Taunt, magic coat/bounce and snatch will all be good due to the prevalance of status moves and the ability to steal them for yourself or stop the opponent's. Non-removable moves like mist, safeguard and tailwind are all extremely powerful, but will cost you a turn and be risky. Any mon that is slow, uses weather, or has prankster are now much stronger.
Thoughts?

 

[AquaticPanic]

We have already that meta that keeps field effects that are active in turn 6 onward to be permanent. This is very simillar to it and would probably just get overshadowed.

 

[Summonerrisa4o1]

As AquaticPanic said, there's lockdown.
I might be a hypocrite for saying this, but it doesn't seem to be very different from lockdown tbh

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I like the idea of Permastatus. It would give use to the terrain moves, since the terrains from the Tapus aren't permanent. Tailwind might be an issue, however, since there is no way to remove it once it's up.

 

[SadisticMystic]

In my formulation of the idea, called Staying Power, I allowed Defog to remove all the one-sided field effects (in a departure from normal rules) just so the opponent would actually be able to do something about those.

The recent discovery that Aurora Veil isn't actually cumulative with the other screens does mitigate some of the wisdom of fortress-building, but if you try to incentivize using lots of these permanent effects, you can't help but meet a natural disincentive in the form of Pokemon using a surprise trapping move to set up for a sweep against a completely passive opponent, similar to how BH punishes attempted sweepers that are too all-encompassing at their task.

 

[pyuk]

Doubles Dance (Get it? Like "Double Dance"? Haha)
Metagame Premise: Doubles-based meta where every Pokemon has Dancer in addition to their normal ability, and every move is a dance move.

Potential Bans and Threats:

• These aren't exactly bans, but the moves Assist, Beak Blast, Bide, Copycat, Focus Punch, Ice Ball, Instruct, Me First, Metronome, Mimic, Mirror Move, Nature Power, Rollout, Shell Trap, Sketch, Sleep Talk, and Transform, as well as charge moves, recharge moves, and Z-Moves will not be copied. These are all the moves that Instruct cannot make a Pokemon use, and since Instruct and Dancer are more similar to each other than they are to any other mechanics, I felt this was necessary. After all, most if not all of these moves would be mechanically broken, if not merely unbalanced. Note that Instruct doesn't work on Outrage, Petal Dance, or Thrash, but since Dancer does work on Petal Dance, I figured it should work on Outrage and Thrash in the same way.
• EDIT: The moves Self-Destruct, Explosion, Final Gambit, Memento, Healing Wish, Lunar Dance, and Belly Drum are quick-banned.
• The ability Magic Bounce and the move Magic Coat are potential bans, as they essentially allow someone to use a status move that hits both opponents on their opponent 4 times in one turn while the opponent can't fire anything back unless they also have some kind of bouncing effect. For Example, Tail Whip Espeon could instantly lower the defense of both opposing Pokemon by 4 stages in just one move with no recoil of any kind, allowing a partner like Zygarde to deal massive amounts of damage. This, I feel, negates the purpose of the meta in a very unhealthy way, and such a strategy is not easily countered; after all, it's pretty hard to taunt something that's bouncing status moves. The only real recourse I can think of is to run Magic Bounce yourself, which is textbook over-centralization.
• The moves Protect, Spiky Shield, Baneful Bunker, King's Shield, Detect, and Endure are all potential bans because two Pokemon using a protection move or Destiny Bond on the same turn will not only activate the move for both Pokemon (as well as their opponents), it will also reset the counter of successive Protection moves used for the slower of the two. On the following turn, the faster one can either succeed in using the move or reset its own counter by failing it so that when the slower one uses the move, they will both succeed again anyway. What this means is that the first two turns of full team protection is guaranteed, and there's an approximate 70% chance of getting a third. When combined with effects like Perish Song, this could potentially be broken, but there are ways of bypassing protection such as Feint and Hoopa's formes' signature moves, and I can't help but feel that this might be what it takes for stall to be viable in a doubles meta.
• Destiny Bond works similarly to the protection moves listed above in that two Pokemon spamming it can successfully have Destiny Bond active for two turns in a row 100% of the time, but while Destiny Bond lacks priority when not used by Mega Banette and is therefore vulnerable to faster attackers, it's still very dangerous when used by just one Pokemon like Gengar or Mega Banette because it makes the user's whole team dangerous to attack while allowing the user's ally to do something with their turn. That said, they can't exactly KO something freely, since the opponents will also have used Destiny Bond. Also, because Destiny Bond's success rate is 0% after 1 use, it will always fail for both users on the third turn of double Destiny Bond.
• The move Hyperspace Fury fails when used by any Pokemon whose current form is not Hoopa-Unbound, so Hoopa-U would be able to use its signature protection-bypassing move without fear of retaliation, making it potentially very threatening, and an ally Mew with Transform could do the same. As such, Hoopa-Unbound is potentially very dangerous when paired with the right ally. The same goes for Dark Void, but that's already banned from Doubles anyway.
• Trick + Choice Scarf can be very powerful, if used right. If a Pokemon is choice-locked into a move, any other move it tries to copy with Dancer will fail, so tricking a Scarf onto an opponent's Pokémon will stop it from copying every move used, seriously disrupting their strategy. EDIT: The target will also immediately try to Trick its item away, so where the Scarf actually ends up is dependent on turn order and who each Pokemon randomly targets.
• Heal Pulse is another example of a powerful move that could potentially backfire. Moves copied by Dancer always target a random opponent, so if your Pokemon uses Heal Pulse on its ally, that ally will use Heal Pulse on a random opponent, but each opponent will use Heal Pulse back at your side, resulting in a total of 3 Heal Pulses for your side, and only one for your opponent. However, it's entirely possible that the Heal Pulses copied by the opponent will be wasted while the one directed at their side could turn the tide of battle.
• Any Pokemon that is immune to both its own moves as well as its ally's is of course very powerful in this meta. For example, a Landorus-Therian and a Flygon could each use Earthquake, resulting in a total of 2 Earthquakes used each, while the 4 Earthquakes used in retaliation would at most only damage the opponent's ally. Of course, that particular strategy is soundly stopped by two opposing Ground-immune Pokemon or Wide Guard, but you get the general idea.
• Speaking of Wide Guard, it and Quick Guard will be even more useful in this meta than in doubles. After all, not only will spread moves and priority moves be even more tempting to abuse, other protection moves don't allow you to hit your opponent with an attack on the same turn.
• Mat Block is uniquely useful in this meta as it only works on the user's first turn out, which means that if the opponent's Pokemon didn't switch in that turn, they won't be able to copy the move and will be unprotected from that turn's onslaught of moves. However, keep in mind that a move which doesn't successfully hit anything won't be copied by Dancer, so your team won't be able to copy any attacking moves used by the opponents into your protection unless the move is a spread move that happens to hit the user's ally. And, of course, the move only works once per switch-in and is only available on Greninja, Smeargle (of course), and the ever slow Throh.
• Not that being slow is necessarily a problem, right? Trick Room is very powerful in doubles, after all. Unfortunately, because Trick Room reverses itself if used while the effect is already active, and there just so happen to be an even number of Pokemon active most of the time, trying to set Trick Room as one would normally will result in the move activating, deactivating, activating again, and then deactivating again. However, if one of the active Pokemon happens to be locked into another move, either by a Choice item, by using a move like Outrage, or by the move Encore, then Trick Room will end up being active by the end of the turn, which can give a player that builds their team wisely a huge advantage. After all, when multiple Dancers are active, they will copy a move in order of lowest to highest raw speed. Sorry for burying the lead there, but this is consistent with the actual mechanics of Dancer in-game, making naturally slow Pokemon invaluable to take the most advantage of this chaotic metagame. Of course, without Trick Room, slow Pokemon still make their own moves last, so players will want to balance their teams with both fast and slow Pokemon. That said, if they can manage to get Trick Room active, slow Pokemon will dominate, so players may be advised to bring their own Choice users to be switched in against potential Trick Room setters.

Questions:

• Are protect moves really all that broken? What about Magic Bounce?
• What else not mentioned above is potentially a threat in this meta?
• What are some good pairs of Pokemon that don't mind their moves being used back at them?
• Is Trick Room worth the hassle to set up?
• Is the meta too complicated? If so, is it the premise of the meta, or the mechanics of Dancer? Is there any way to make it simpler? I'd prefer to stay true to Dancer's mechanics, but boy they sure are weird.
• Did I maybe go overboard on the threats section?

 

[SadisticMystic]

FEAR Pain Split generally works a lot like Nature's Madness, but hitting both opponents at once.

"Accelgor used Final Gambit! [Guzzlord's Dancer] Guzzlord used Final Gambit!" for when you really want to simplify the field. Or even...if both sides have at least Pokemon left, is there anything other than Taunt, Assault Vest, or choice-locking yourself that would stop Healing Wish from forcing everyone to drink the Kool-Aid? You might want to ban Healing Wish just because of how dumb that is.

Choice Scarf Vivillon can use Powder, a +1 priority move that notably beats any Mat Block, and possibly cover both opponents (as well as itself) in powder, then its teammate can be some Safety Goggles Fire-type with Heat Wave. The Safety Goggles prevent its own move from tripping the Powder, Vivillon's Scarf prevents it from using Heat Wave after possibly being powdered, but the opponents attempt to use Heat Wave only to have it blow up in their faces, on top of the damage they took from the original move.

It seems pretty tough to tame, but if you can have Scarf Gourgeist use Trick-or-Treat ahead of a teammate's Curse, you could try to force the opponents to use Ghost Curse to cripple their own HP, and if they have innate ghosts out anyway for fear of something like Final Gambit spam, you can skip the Gourgeist and just feed them Curse from the get-go. The tough part is finding a partner that can't be fooled into using the Ghost version of Curse, otherwise you could just feed everyone Belly Drum and be done with it.

 

[Summonerrisa4o1]

Doubles Dance (Get it? Like "Double Dance"? Haha)
Metagame Premise: Doubles-based meta where every Pokemon has Dancer in addition to their normal ability, and every move is a dance move.

Potential Bans and Threats:

• These aren't exactly bans, but the moves Assist, Beak Blast, Bide, Copycat, Focus Punch, Ice Ball, Instruct, Me First, Metronome, Mimic, Mirror Move, Nature Power, Rollout, Shell Trap, Sketch, Sleep Talk, and Transform, as well as charge moves, recharge moves, and Z-Moves will not be copied. These are all the moves that Instruct cannot make a Pokemon use, and since Instruct and Dancer are more similar to each other than they are to any other mechanics, I felt this was necessary. After all, most if not all of these moves would be mechanically broken, if not merely unbalanced. Note that Instruct doesn't work on Outrage, Petal Dance, or Thrash, but since Dancer does work on Petal Dance, I figured it should work on Outrage and Thrash in the same way.
• The ability Magic Bounce and the move Magic Coat are potential bans, as they essentially allow someone to use a status move that hits both opponents on their opponent 4 times in one turn while the opponent can't fire anything back unless they also have some kind of bouncing effect. For Example, Tail Whip Espeon could instantly lower the defense of both opposing Pokemon by 4 stages in just one move with no recoil of any kind, allowing a partner like Zygarde to deal massive amounts of damage. This, I feel, negates the purpose of the meta in a very unhealthy way, and such a strategy is not easily countered; after all, it's pretty hard to taunt something that's bouncing status moves. The only real recourse I can think of is to run Magic Bounce yourself, which is textbook over-centralization.
• The moves Protect, Spiky Shield, Baneful Bunker, King's Shield, Detect, and Endure are all potential bans because two Pokemon using a protection move or Destiny Bond on the same turn will not only activate the move for both Pokemon (as well as their opponents), it will also reset the counter of successive Protection moves used for the slower of the two. On the following turn, the faster one can either succeed in using the move or reset its own counter by failing it so that when the slower one uses the move, they will both succeed again anyway. What this means is that the first two turns of full team protection is guaranteed, and there's an approximate 70% chance of getting a third. When combined with effects like Perish Song, this could potentially be broken, but there are ways of bypassing protection such as Feint and Hoopa's formes' signature moves, and I can't help but feel that this might be what it takes for stall to be viable in a doubles meta.
• Destiny Bond works similarly to the protection moves listed above in that two Pokemon spamming it can successfully have Destiny Bond active for two turns in a row 100% of the time, but while Destiny Bond lacks priority when not used by Mega Banette and is therefore vulnerable to faster attackers, it's still very dangerous when used by just one Pokemon like Gengar or Mega Banette because it makes the user's whole team dangerous to attack while allowing the user's ally to do something with their turn. That said, they can't exactly KO something freely, since the opponents will also have used Destiny Bond. Also, because Destiny Bond's success rate is 0% after 1 use, it will always fail for both users on the third turn of double Destiny Bond.
• The move Hyperspace Fury fails when used by any Pokemon whose current form is not Hoopa-Unbound, so Hoopa-U would be able to use its signature protection-bypassing move without fear of retaliation, making it potentially very threatening, and an ally Mew with Transform could do the same. As such, Hoopa-Unbound is potentially very dangerous when paired with the right ally. The same goes for Dark Void, but that's already banned from Doubles anyway.
• Trick + Choice Scarf can be very powerful, but also very risky. If a Pokemon is choice-locked into a move, any other move it tries to copy with Dancer will fail, so tricking a Scarf onto an opponent will stop it from copying every move used. However, if another Pokemon outspeeds your trick-scarf mon, or uses a priority move, your Pokemon will be locked into that move and be unable to use Trick.
• Heal Pulse is another example of a powerful move that could potentially backfire. Moves copied by Dancer always target a random opponent, so if your Pokemon uses Heal Pulse on its ally, that ally will use Heal Pulse on a random opponent, but each opponent will use Heal Pulse back at your side, resulting in a total of 3 Heal Pulses for your side, and only one for your opponent. However, it's entirely possible that the Heal Pulses copied by the opponent will be wasted while the one directed at their side could turn the tide of battle.
• Any Pokemon that is immune to both its own moves as well as its ally's is of course very powerful in this meta. For example, a Landorus-Therian and a Flygon could each use Earthquake, resulting in a total of 2 Earthquakes used each, while the 4 Earthquakes used in retaliation would at most only damage the opponent's ally. Of course, that particular strategy is soundly stopped by two opposing Ground-immune Pokemon or Wide Guard, but you get the general idea.
• Speaking of Wide Guard, it and Quick Guard will be even more useful in this meta than in doubles. After all, not only will spread moves and priority moves be even more tempting to abuse, other protection moves don't allow you to hit your opponent with an attack on the same turn.
• Mat Block is uniquely useful in this meta as it only works on the user's first turn out, which means that if the opponent's Pokemon didn't switch in that turn, they won't be able to copy the move and will be unprotected from that turn's onslaught of moves. However, keep in mind that a move which doesn't successfully hit anything won't be copied by Dancer, so your team won't be able to copy any attacking moves used by the opponents into your protection unless the move is a spread move that happens to hit the user's ally. And, of course, the move only works once per switch-in and is only available on Greninja, Smeargle (of course), and the ever slow Throh.
• Not that being slow is necessarily a problem, right? Trick Room is very powerful in doubles, after all. Unfortunately, because Trick Room reverses itself if used while the effect is already active, and there just so happen to be an even number of Pokemon active most of the time, trying to set Trick Room as one would normally will result in the move activating, deactivating, activating again, and then deactivating again. However, if one of the active Pokemon happens to be locked into another move, either by a Choice item, by using a move like Outrage, or by the move Encore, then Trick Room will end up being active by the end of the turn, which can give a player that builds their team wisely a huge advantage. After all, when multiple Dancers are active, they will copy a move in order of lowest to highest raw speed. Sorry for burying the lead there, but this is consistent with the actual mechanics of Dancer in-game, making naturally slow Pokemon invaluable to take the most advantage of this chaotic metagame. Of course, without Trick Room, slow Pokemon still make their own moves last, so players will want to balance their teams with both fast and slow Pokemon. Of course, if they can manage to get Trick Room active, slow Pokemon will dominate, so players may be advised to bring their own Choice users to be switched in against potential Trick Room setters.

Questions:

• Are protect moves really all that broken? What about Magic Bounce?
• What else not mentioned above is potentially a threat in this meta?
• What are some good pairs of Pokemon that don't mind their moves being used back at them?
• Is Trick Room worth the hassle to set up?
• Is the meta too complicated? If so, is it the premise of the meta, or the mechanics of Dancer? Is there any way to make it simpler? I'd prefer to stay true to Dancer's mechanics, but boy they sure are weird.
• Did I maybe go overboard on the threats section?

• The moves Protect, Spiky Shield, Baneful Bunker, King's Shield, Detect, and Endure are all potential bans because two Pokemon using a protection move or Destiny Bond on the same turn will not only activate the move for both Pokemon (as well as their opponents), it will also reset the counter of successive Protection moves used for the slower of the two. On the following turn, the faster one can either succeed in using the move or reset its own counter by failing it so that when the slower one uses the move, they will both succeed again anyway. What this means is that the first two turns of full team protection is guaranteed, and there's an approximate 70% chance of getting a third. When combined with effects like Perish Song, this could potentially be broken, but there are ways of bypassing protection such as Feint and Hoopa's formes' signature moves, and I can't help but feel that this might be what it takes for stall to be viable in a doubles meta.
• Destiny Bond works similarly to the protection moves listed above in that two Pokemon spamming it can successfully have Destiny Bond active for two turns in a row 100% of the time, but while Destiny Bond lacks priority when not used by Mega Banette and is therefore vulnerable to faster attackers, it's still very dangerous when used by just one Pokemon like Gengar or Mega Banette because it makes the user's whole team dangerous to attack while allowing the user's ally to do something with their turn. That said, they can't exactly KO something freely, since the opponents will also have used Destiny Bond. Also, because Destiny Bond's success rate is 0% after 1 use, it will always fail for both users on the third turn of double Destiny Bond.

Inkay used V-Create!
I think this is an awesome metagame idea.