Metagame Workshop

[LeExperimentator]

This idea was probably done before, but I'm gonna shoot my shot anyways.
My idea is called OUBL (though I may also call it Ubers Lite), and as you might assume, all Ubers that have less than a 4.52% usage rate in Ubers are allowed in the tier!
If they are were banned in OU, then they are NOT to be banned unless ABSOLUTELY neccesary.
Definite bans include Lugia, who would be too hard to break, and Rayquaza, who would be too overwhelming and versatile offensively.
Mons eligible for the tier include both Zamazentas, Dialga, Urshifu-Dark, Vish, G-Darm, Necrozma Dawn Wings, Solgaleo, Zacian-Base, Naganadel, Landorus-I, Giratina, Reshiram, Kyurem-White AND Black, Lunala, Genesect, Mewtwo, and Pheromosa.
To assist in my research into the metagame of this tier, reply to this post or join the Discord below:
https://discord.gg/Kk5qkGy9Y9
edit: All abilities banned in OU are banned in this format, except Arena Trap (perhaps).

 

[DrPumpkinz]

This idea was probably done before, but I'm gonna shoot my shot anyways.
My idea is called OUBL (though I may also call it Ubers Lite), and as you might assume, all Ubers that have less than a 4.52% usage rate in Ubers are allowed in the tier!
If they are were banned in OU, then they are NOT to be banned unless ABSOLUTELY neccesary.
Definite bans include Lugia, who would be too hard to break, and Rayquaza, who would be too overwhelming and versatile offensively.
Mons eligible for the tier include both Zamazentas, Dialga, Urshifu-Dark, Vish, G-Darm, Necrozma Dawn Wings, Solgaleo, Zacian-Base, Naganadel, Landorus-I, Giratina, Reshiram, Kyurem-White AND Black, Lunala, Genesect, Mewtwo, and Pheromosa.
To assist in my research into the metagame of this tier, reply to this post or join the Discord below:
https://discord.gg/Kk5qkGy9Y9

We already have an OUBL tier. It's called Ubers.

 

[LeExperimentator]

We already have an OUBL tier. It's called Ubers.

That's why I might want to call it Ubers Lite.
DrPumpkinz The reason why I want this to exist is because there are plenty of Ubers that aren't very viable in Ubers, like Genesect.

 

[Tmi489]

My idea is called OUBL (though I may also call it Ubers Lite), and as you might assume, all Ubers that have less than a 4.52% usage rate in Ubers are allowed in the tier!

BL Ubers afaik is the "real" name
New usage based tiers aren't allowed to be submitted though inc bl ubers

 

[LeExperimentator]

BL Ubers afaik is the "real" name
New usage based tiers aren't allowed to be submitted

where would this be submitted? And why is ZU under Other Metagames?

 

[Tmi489]

where would this be submitted? And why is ZU under Other Metagames?

You wouldn't be able to submit this anywhere, sadly.
I'm kinda sure that there's a version of the meta in some side server (but not really)
ZU is an OM because it isn't an official tier yet. There used to be Unoffical Metagames (AG, ZU, 1v1) seperate from OMs, but they are now included in OM for simplicity's sake.
Edit @ Below: its just been a rejected idea, also isn't particularly creative / has been submitted before

 

[LeExperimentator]

You wouldn't be able to submit this anywhere, sadly.
I'm kinda sure that there's a version of the meta in some side server (but not really)
ZU is an OM because it isn't an official tier yet. There used to be Unoffical Metagames (AG, ZU, 1v1) seperate from OMs, but they are now included in OM for simplicity's sake.

Why wouldn't I be able to submit a usage-based tier? Where does that come from?

 

[I am the Impostor]

Why wouldn't I be able to submit a usage-based tier? Where does that come from?

in case you didn't see, here's what Tmi489 said.

You wouldn't be able to submit this anywhere, sadly.
I'm kinda sure that there's a version of the meta in some side server (but not really)
ZU is an OM because it isn't an official tier yet. There used to be Unoffical Metagames (AG, ZU, 1v1) seperate from OMs, but they are now included in OM for simplicity's sake.
HERE IS THE RESPONSE TO YOUR QUESTION: Edit @ Below: its just been a rejected idea, also isn't particularly creative / has been submitted before

 

[Akumeoy]

MIRROR, MIRROR

Metagame premise: Whenever a Pokemon uses a move, their opponent immediately uses that same move.​

Elaboration

• Mirrored moves are not, themselves, mirrored. They don't go back and forth forever.
• A Pokemon is able to mirror a move even if their move selection is hindered (i.e. a Pokemon that's been Taunted or is holding Assault Vest can still mirror a status move)
• The move is not mirrored if the would-be mirrorer is switched out (via Eject Button, Emergency Exit, phazing, etc.) or fainted.
• The move is only mirrored once the original move has finished resolving.
• The move is still mirrored even if it fails for whatever reason.

Potential bans:

• Standard clauses and OU banlist apply, as well as the following:
• Moves: Explosion, Self-Destruct, Misty Explosion, Healing Wish, Lunar Dance, Steel Beam, Mind Blown, Rest, Ingrain, No Retreat
• Abilities: Contrary, Infiltrator
• Items: Leppa Berry
• Watchlist: Belly Drum, Rocky Helmet

Explanations

• Explosion, Self-Destruct, Misty Explosion, Healing Wish, and Lunar Dance are banned for their ability to easily force trades.
• Steel Beam and Mind Blown are banned for dealing too much damage with too little recourse.
• Rest is banned for its ability to circumvent the sleep clause.
• Ingrain and No Retreat are banned because, if the original user holds a Shed Shell, they can switch out while leaving the opponent trapped and helpless.
• Contrary, in conjunction with Sweet Scent or Defog, circumvents the evasion clause. Malamar doesn't get either of those moves, so it might be worth just banning Lurantis and Shuckle.
• Infiltrator has what seems (to me) to be a degenerate strategy of spamming Substitute with little risk, then picking off the weakened opponent through its Substitute.
• Leppa Berry will probably have to be banned if the endless battle clause is to be upheld.
• Belly Drum forces a 50% reduction in the opponent's health, making it easier for the user to pick off what they just set up on; additionally, +6 Attack is usually enough to OHKO anything slower, meaning that you can't simply revenge the user by mirroring its attacks, which is otherwise a valid answer to most setup. That said, giving your opponent +6 Attack is adding an incredible amount of risk to an already-risky attack, so it might not even be worth using.
• Rocky Helmet can be used in conjunction with a contact move to forcibly proc it, even on opponents that have no contact moves of their own. The free damage is concerning, but I don't think it's so overwhelming that the metagame couldn't adapt.

Threats:
Since this meta is centered around symmetry, the best strategies will try to break that symmetry by using moves that the opponent can't exploit against you; this general concept should be familiar to BH players who run self-imposterproofed sets.

Sample Sets

Volcanion @ Air Balloon
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 31 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Overheat
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power

Volcanion demonstrates a few ways for mons to exploit the mirroring mechanic -- its ability grants it immunity from Steam Eruption while also healing damage, it takes extremely little from Overheat and Flash Cannon, and Air Balloon can grant (temporary) immunity from Earth Power. Overheat's Special Attack drop also greatly hinders opposing special attackers.

As a side note, you have to manually give special attackers 31 Attack IVs if you want to boost their damage output from mirrored physical moves, otherwise the teambuilder will set it to zero.

Tornadus (M)
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Defog
- Acrobatics
- Superpower
- Knock Off / Taunt

Tornadus Incarnate can get a +2 boost off of a mirrored Defog, then use Acrobatics at twice the power of its opponent. Superpower can still be risky, but the defensive drop your opponent incurs will cancel out your lowered damage output until they switch. Since Tornadus has no item of its own, it's free to run Knock Off without worry of losing anything from the mirror, or Taunt if you need that more.

Rhyperior @ Choice Band
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch
- Thunder Punch

There's nothing tricky going on here, just a powerful physical attacker that has the bulk to take what it dishes out. Even if it eats its own Earthquake on the knockback, it won't deal too terribly much unless it comes from another Ground-type.

Ferrothorn @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball
- Leech Seed
- Toxic

Probably one of the more evil sets you can run. Pokemon with abilities triggered by contact can force them to activate by using contact moves of their own; here, Ferrothorn takes almost nothing from its own attacks while dealing serious chip damage to its opponents in addition to their natural damage. The last two slots go to moves that Ferrothorn can click with impunity that deal even more residual damage.

Questions for the community:

- Does this sound fun? Does it make sense?

- Did I miss any broken or uncompetitive strategies that might need a ban?

- How should these non-obvious cases be handled? I'm inclined to let the answer be "whatever ends up being easiest to code" and ban anything that's broken or uncompetitive as a result, but if there's a specific implementation you would like to see, let me know.

Special cases

• Charge moves and multi-turn attacks (Meteor Beam, Skull Bash, Fly, Dig, etc.) -- If you could force your opponent into a multi-turn move, pairing one of these with Power Herb might be a good one-time way to get a free switch in a meta where pivot moves are probably bad. I think letting you do this would open up some interesting strategies.
• Recharge moves (Hyper Beam, Rock Wrecker, etc.)
• Moves that lock you in (Uproar, Outrage, Thrash, etc.)
• Moves with a delay (Focus Punch, Doom Desire, Future Sight)
• Bide
• Status afflictions that can deny move usage (sleep, paralysis, freeze, confusion, attraction, flinch) -- It would be a pain to ban these, so whatever implementation is used should probably not break the meta.
• Moves that call other moves (Nature Power, Metronome, etc.)
• Moves that care about the last move used (Instruct, Copycat, Mirror Move, etc.)
• Anything I overlooked

 

[Tmi489]

MIRROR, MIRROR

Metagame premise: Whenever a Pokemon uses a move, their opponent immediately uses that same move

Overall seems similar to another submission (Dancerability; reflecting moves that apply, like rough skin for contact)

• Ingrain and No Retreat are banned because, if the original user holds a Shed Shell, they can switch out while leaving the opponent trapped and helpless.

Mean Look/Block/Jaw Lock/et all are not banned and like those moves, both ingrain and NR require a turn to use
NR specifically is on a bad mon who cant heal and doesnt really have bulk

• Contrary, in conjunction with Sweet Scent or Defog, circumvents the evasion clause. Malamar doesn't get either of those moves, so it might be worth just banning Lurantis and Shuckle.

Would a complex ban of Contrary + Evasion lowering move be alright (asking OM mods more than you)

Infiltrator has what seems (to me) to be a degenerate strategy of spamming Substitute with little risk, then picking off the weakened opponent through its Substitute.

Couldn't you just ban Substitute? Sound Move sstill bypass sub and sound moves are too widespread to really ban

- Does this sound fun? Does it make sense?

it mighttt be too chaotic, because second mon gets effectively two moves at once (and first mon still first/last move)

pivot moves are probably bad.

you could U-Turn or Flip Turn onto ferrothorn or another rocky helmet user, forcing them to uturn themselves
getting pretty much free damage and forcing the opponent out

Anything I overlooked

What happens with Mbounce/mcoat?

 

[chartung17]

MIRROR, MIRROR

Metagame premise: Whenever a Pokemon uses a move, their opponent immediately uses that same move.​

Elaboration

• Mirrored moves are not, themselves, mirrored. They don't go back and forth forever.
• A Pokemon is able to mirror a move even if their move selection is hindered (i.e. a Pokemon that's been Taunted or is holding Assault Vest can still mirror a status move)
• The move is not mirrored if the would-be mirrorer is switched out (via Eject Button, Emergency Exit, phazing, etc.) or fainted.
• The move is only mirrored once the original move has finished resolving.
• The move is still mirrored even if it fails for whatever reason.

Potential bans:

• Standard clauses and OU banlist apply, as well as the following:
• Moves: Explosion, Self-Destruct, Misty Explosion, Healing Wish, Lunar Dance, Steel Beam, Mind Blown, Rest, Ingrain, No Retreat
• Abilities: Contrary, Infiltrator
• Items: Leppa Berry
• Watchlist: Belly Drum, Rocky Helmet

Explanations

• Explosion, Self-Destruct, Misty Explosion, Healing Wish, and Lunar Dance are banned for their ability to easily force trades.
• Steel Beam and Mind Blown are banned for dealing too much damage with too little recourse.
• Rest is banned for its ability to circumvent the sleep clause.
• Ingrain and No Retreat are banned because, if the original user holds a Shed Shell, they can switch out while leaving the opponent trapped and helpless.
• Contrary, in conjunction with Sweet Scent or Defog, circumvents the evasion clause. Malamar doesn't get either of those moves, so it might be worth just banning Lurantis and Shuckle.
• Infiltrator has what seems (to me) to be a degenerate strategy of spamming Substitute with little risk, then picking off the weakened opponent through its Substitute.
• Leppa Berry will probably have to be banned if the endless battle clause is to be upheld.
• Belly Drum forces a 50% reduction in the opponent's health, making it easier for the user to pick off what they just set up on; additionally, +6 Attack is usually enough to OHKO anything slower, meaning that you can't simply revenge the user by mirroring its attacks, which is otherwise a valid answer to most setup. That said, giving your opponent +6 Attack is adding an incredible amount of risk to an already-risky attack, so it might not even be worth using.
• Rocky Helmet can be used in conjunction with a contact move to forcibly proc it, even on opponents that have no contact moves of their own. The free damage is concerning, but I don't think it's so overwhelming that the metagame couldn't adapt.

Threats:
Since this meta is centered around symmetry, the best strategies will try to break that symmetry by using moves that the opponent can't exploit against you; this general concept should be familiar to BH players who run self-imposterproofed sets.

Sample Sets

Volcanion @ Air Balloon
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 31 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Overheat
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power

Volcanion demonstrates a few ways for mons to exploit the mirroring mechanic -- its ability grants it immunity from Steam Eruption while also healing damage, it takes extremely little from Overheat and Flash Cannon, and Air Balloon can grant (temporary) immunity from Earth Power. Overheat's Special Attack drop also greatly hinders opposing special attackers.

As a side note, you have to manually give special attackers 31 Attack IVs if you want to boost their damage output from mirrored physical moves, otherwise the teambuilder will set it to zero.

Tornadus (M)
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Defog
- Acrobatics
- Superpower
- Knock Off / Taunt

Tornadus Incarnate can get a +2 boost off of a mirrored Defog, then use Acrobatics at twice the power of its opponent. Superpower can still be risky, but the defensive drop your opponent incurs will cancel out your lowered damage output until they switch. Since Tornadus has no item of its own, it's free to run Knock Off without worry of losing anything from the mirror, or Taunt if you need that more.

Rhyperior @ Choice Band
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch
- Thunder Punch

There's nothing tricky going on here, just a powerful physical attacker that has the bulk to take what it dishes out. Even if it eats its own Earthquake on the knockback, it won't deal too terribly much unless it comes from another Ground-type.

Ferrothorn @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball
- Leech Seed
- Toxic

Probably one of the more evil sets you can run. Pokemon with abilities triggered by contact can force them to activate by using contact moves of their own; here, Ferrothorn takes almost nothing from its own attacks while dealing serious chip damage to its opponents in addition to their natural damage. The last two slots go to moves that Ferrothorn can click with impunity that deal even more residual damage.

Questions for the community:

- Does this sound fun? Does it make sense?

- Did I miss any broken or uncompetitive strategies that might need a ban?

- How should these non-obvious cases be handled? I'm inclined to let the answer be "whatever ends up being easiest to code" and ban anything that's broken or uncompetitive as a result, but if there's a specific implementation you would like to see, let me know.

Special cases

• Charge moves and multi-turn attacks (Meteor Beam, Skull Bash, Fly, Dig, etc.) -- If you could force your opponent into a multi-turn move, pairing one of these with Power Herb might be a good one-time way to get a free switch in a meta where pivot moves are probably bad. I think letting you do this would open up some interesting strategies.
• Recharge moves (Hyper Beam, Rock Wrecker, etc.)
• Moves that lock you in (Uproar, Outrage, Thrash, etc.)
• Moves with a delay (Focus Punch, Doom Desire, Future Sight)
• Bide
• Status afflictions that can deny move usage (sleep, paralysis, freeze, confusion, attraction, flinch) -- It would be a pain to ban these, so whatever implementation is used should probably not break the meta.
• Moves that call other moves (Nature Power, Metronome, etc.)
• Moves that care about the last move used (Instruct, Copycat, Mirror Move, etc.)
• Anything I overlooked

Here are a few meme sets:

Druddigon @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Dual Wingbeat
- Sucker Punch
- filler
- filler

Krookodile @ Salac Berry / Sitrus Berry / Figy Berry / whatever
Ability: Anger Point
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Focus Energy
- Shadow Claw / Scale Shot
- Stone Edge / Scale Shot
- Earthquake / High Horsepower

Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Mirror Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sand Attack
- Screech
- Brave Bird
- Iron Head

Also, Dhelmise probably has a niche as the only Ghost-type with Rapid Spin.

 

[Akumeoy]

Mean Look/Block/Jaw Lock/et all are not banned and like those moves, both ingrain and NR require a turn to use
NR specifically is on a bad mon who cant heal and doesnt really have bulk

The difference with Mean Look, Block, etc. is that once one party switches out or faints, the opponent will no longer trapped, since those aren't self-trapping moves. If you get an Ingrain/No Retreat off on an opponent and then faint or (with Shed Shell) switch out, they're trapped until you decide to KO them, which is probably after you've set up to +6 with something that walls it. That's the scenario I'm trying to avoid here.

Couldn't you just ban Substitute? Sound Move sstill bypass sub and sound moves are too widespread to really ban

If your sound move bypasses an opposing Substitute, its mirror will bypass yours (unless you're Soundproof). That said, now that I type it out, the distinction seems fairly minor, given that you're probably OHKOing if they're at 1/4 HP... and multi-hit moves could also get the job done... I might just go with a Substitute ban.

you could U-Turn or Flip Turn onto ferrothorn or another rocky helmet user, forcing them to uturn themselves

This is would work, but you have to balance that with the fact that this grants them a switch to whatever mon they want after you execute your switch, denying you the momentum that is normally the appeal of pivot moves. I'm sure some sets will still want the effect you described, but as it stands, momentum is hard to generate.

What happens with Mbounce/mcoat?

Reflectable moves will get bounced back at their original user, and then the Mbounce/Mcoat user will mirror them properly. This won't always make a difference, but it could definitely be important in certain situations, so thank you for pointing it out.

Thanks for all the feedback! My responses are mostly arguing, but that's only because it feels silly to respond to the more subjective or self-evident stuff.

Druddigon @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Dual Wingbeat
- Sucker Punch
- filler
- filler

what have i wrought

 

[urkerab]

Also, Dhelmise probably has a niche as the only Ghost-type with Rapid Spin.

Presumably it would also run Multi-Attack with Ghost Memory and either Body Press or Brick Break?

Along the same lines you can have EQ Landorus/Flygon, Discharge Stunfisk/Bolt Beak Dracozolt/Plasma Fists Zeraora etc., Steam Eruption Volcanion & co and Psycho Cut Malamar (which sadly has to run Suction Cups).

 

[chartung17]

Presumably it would also run Multi-Attack with Ghost Memory and either Body Press or Brick Break?

Along the same lines you can have EQ Landorus/Flygon, Discharge Stunfisk/Bolt Beak Dracozolt/Plasma Fists Zeraora etc., Steam Eruption Volcanion & co and Psycho Cut Malamar (which sadly has to run Suction Cups).

Dhelmise doesn't learn Multi Attack.

 

[urkerab]

Dhelmise doesn't learn Multi Attack.

Whoops, I must have read too many Balanced Hackmons posts...

 

[Xufactor3]

90% rule

Metagame premise:
All 10% hax or lower is removed. All moves with 90%+ accuracy are now 100%. High horsepower will always hit and ice beam will never freeze. This decreases unplanned hax in the game. At least with moves like focus blast and scald, you expect to miss or burn sometimes anyway, so it’s not as detrimental to your game plan. 1/24 chance crits will never happen unless you have an attack drop or your opponent has a defense boost., to keep in check the strategy of defense boosting.

Potential bans and threats:
High jump kick, banned or unchanged