Metagame Metagamiate

[Smartbart cousin]

Lopunny-Mega @ Lopunnite
Ability: Scrappy
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Last Resort


Counter almighty Mega sableye

 

[OM]

suddenly: fighting resists

Something I've wanted to experiment as a cool mon is Choice Band ESpeed Suicune for the fun of it

Should be able to decently handle Zygarde + Arcanine which is cool

Suicune @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Facade
- Avalanche
- Iron Head

Weird but might be viable

 

[Pikachuun]

on the topic of Gale Wings and Aerilate, since not only was there a full page of discussion on it FoggyPaws dm'd me asking for it:
to be frank, I'm not making it happen, the reasoning for this is how events occur in-game, which is what is replicated on the sim and stated by its documentation.
this was also shown by running 2 brief tests on a test server, all tests were done with the below setup:

Return Talonflame with a modified Gale Wings to have Aerilate's bonus effect in OU (just in case Metagamiate's code is off, for whatever reason) vs Choice Scarf Stone Edge Tapu Bulu:
1. Gale Wings boosts the priority of Flying-type moves: Tapu Bulu hits with Stone Edge and OHKOs
2. Gale Wings boosts the priority of Normal-type moves: Talonflame uses Return, it's super effective and OHKOs

if you want to (and can) modify the game to give Gale Wings the Aerilate effect and re-test, then I certainly won't stop you, though; i'm unsure where to find the ability structure myself, but if you're confident in your ability to mod USUM go ahead (who knows we may be wrong and this would need to be implemented, it would shine some light on the inner workings of the game either way)

 

[motherlove]

Hello, can I submit SAMPLE TEAMS?

I find this meta very easy to build for, and both these teams topped + are kinda original so I thought I'd share as a mini showcase type thing.
Some explanations in the paste for both.

TR offense: https://pokepast.es/cbf4df3181d7fcad (topped under motherlove)
TR is always really nice in an offense-centric meta as you can usually get 3 kills in 4 tr turns. Marowak is busted as shit and basically nothing takes a hit. Espeed is less relevant than last gen and you can tank a bunch of common espeed mons. Team is super easy to use, fast games fast wins ez peak.

Lugg stall: https://pokepast.es/83b95853c626fa86 (topped under motherhate)
Stall is a neat meme in metagamiate. It's definitely not good, it's very easy to beat, but ppl try to counter offense so bad that often they actually end up trading too much firepower for speed and get walled easily by fatter stuff. Stall is anti meta by nature so this team tries to deal with the most common threats principally like koko, medicham, landorus and whatnot. Lugg can come hard in on landorus which is easily the most common rocker so it's sometimes not too hard to keep rocks off. It's definitely harder to use than other metagamiate teams I've built, but as a meme I'd say it served well. Arcanine the goat.

 

[VCrakeV]

Hello, can I submit SAMPLE TEAMS?

I find this meta very easy to build for, and both these teams topped + are kinda original so I thought I'd share as a mini showcase type thing.
Some explanations in the paste for both.

TR offense: https://pokepast.es/cbf4df3181d7fcad (topped under motherlove)
TR is always really nice in an offense-centric meta as you can usually get 3 kills in 4 tr turns. Marowak is busted as shit and basically nothing takes a hit. Espeed is less relevant than last gen and you can tank a bunch of common espeed mons. Team is super easy to use, fast games fast wins ez peak.

Lugg stall: https://pokepast.es/83b95853c626fa86 (topped under motherhate)
Stall is a neat meme in metagamiate. It's definitely not good, it's very easy to beat, but ppl try to counter offense so bad that often they actually end up trading too much firepower for speed and get walled easily by fatter stuff. Stall is anti meta by nature so this team tries to deal with the most common threats principally like koko, medicham, landorus and whatnot. Lugg can come hard in on landorus which is easily the most common rocker so it's sometimes not too hard to keep rocks off. It's definitely harder to use than other metagamiate teams I've built, but as a meme I'd say it served well. Arcanine the goat.

Pretty cool TR team, but it looks like it'd struggle against some common threats. Megacham denies Carbink from using trick room with fake out (though you could set it with Cress immediately after) (edit: nvm, didn't see protect). Terrate Diggersby is also a huge threat, as well as the less common, but still relevant terrate Zygarde. I'd try to fit more priority than aqua jet, since this would help against the aforementioned terrate mons. Great team though, especially since it peaked the ladder. I'm quite surprised.

 

[motherlove]

Pretty cool TR team, but it looks like it'd struggle against some common threats. Megacham denies Carbink from using trick room with fake out (though you could set it with Cress immediately after) (edit: nvm, didn't see protect). Terrate Diggersby is also a huge threat, as well as the less common, but still relevant terrate Zygarde. I'd try to fit more priority than aqua jet, since this would help against the aforementioned terrate mons. Great team though, especially since it peaked the ladder. I'm quite surprised.

Thanks man, Diggersby I haven't seen yet but terrate Zyg is definitely an issue, I usually rely on cress and crawdaunt in that mu. Fake out on anything is a pain cause it stalls trick room, Daunt + marowak provide immunities to psychic and fighting fake out which helps, but Zeraora is a pain.

More priority might be cool, but considering I can afford to invest in HP / Tank a hit I find it better to go for firepower so I can OHKO mons and waste less tr turns. Wak and Crawdaunt don't have to worry about switchins for the most part. There are no espeed mons that posses this kind of firepower.
I might try air balloon Stakataka or smt tho, could be good idk. That or I could even run a tapu lele with uproar.
Stak does heavily improve my mu against mimikyu.

 

[ImKoolKidz]

Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Aerial Ace
- Fire Fang
- Earthquake

Tapu Lele @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Defog

Magearna @ Steelium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shift Gear
- Iron Head
- Last Resort

Kommo-o @ Lum Berry
Ability: Soundproof
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Close Combat
- Frustration
- Poison Jab

Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Roar
- Earthquake
- Slack Off

Any Thoughts? I love Magearna xD

 

[VCrakeV]

Lele doesn't get uproar. Your choices are echoed voice and hyper beam. But yeah, unless you need life orb for any OHKOs, I'd switch to air balloon on Stak. Rhyperior could be a good option, since it takes Terrate extremespeed much better, especially with solid rock. Or you could run reckless with double edge, cause why not?

Oh, and I'm not sure if people run return on it or not (I haven't), but Excadrill could OHKO Carbink with it (assuming it's shiny and moldbreaker). I was using rock tomb to prevent set up, but return plus eq could be enough offensive pressure to put that to a stop anyway.

 

[Akumeoy]

Hyper Offense

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Defog
- Frustration
- Explosion
- U-turn

Tapu Lele @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Focus Blast
- Moonblast

Azelf @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Explosion
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Fire Blast

Medicham-Mega @ Medichamite
Ability: Pure Power
Shiny: Yes
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- High Jump Kick
- Double-Edge
- Feint

Cloyster @ Focus Sash
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Spike Cannon
- Ice Shard

Arcanine @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Return
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun

A hyper offense team, more or less. Azelf is a standard suicide lead with a very powerful Explosion, Mega Medicham has really powerful STABs and dual priority, Cloyster is a Sash Smasher that can plow through most teams at +2 (I'd use Barbaracle in a heartbeat but it doesn't outspeed Scarf Kartana at +2), Tapu Lele is a good scarfer that boosts Mega Medicham and protects Cloyster (gotta play careful if you need that priority tho), Lando-T is a decent check to Electric-types and a great scarfer with a redonkulous Explosion (it doesn't really need EQ, what with Frustration into Explosion taking care of most of EQ's targets anyways), and Arcanine is there because otherwise the team is pretty much destroyed by Scarf Kartana, and also it's a decent blanket physical check and priority user. Not the world's most consistent thing -- in particular it just rolls over and dies to Trick Room -- but it's a really fun team to use.

Please ban Kartana, though. The Scarf set alone barely has defensive counterplay (Arcanine and Mega Scizor are the only switch-ins that serve any other purpose), and that's just at +0. Obviously it's a pain to outspeed with Scarf, at that speed tier. You can work around it sometimes with sashes and priority, but rocks and Lele are both common and splashable.

 

[motherlove]

Fully support actually taking a look at Kartana.

 

[VCrakeV]

Yeah, Kartana is a huge threat. Return 2HKOs pretty much any resist that isn't bulky (like Lucario, Mega Houndoom) and OHKOs a lot of offensive Pokemon at +1. Even before a boost, most offensive Pokemon drop if they don't resist. Arcanine is weak to rocks, so it can't switch in much without using morning sun (and losing momentum). Doublade is vulnerable to knock off, and night slash from z-tailwind is nothing to laugh at. Landorus, the go to physical tank of OU drops to two returns (one return without enough defensive investment).

Revenge killing is very difficult, as I can tell from my own and my opponents' experience. Choice scarf makes it hard to outspeed, and I personally have used tapu lele to prevent priority revenge killing, like Lucario and Arcanine extremespeed. This means you need a choice scarf user faster than Kartana, which is quite limiting. Kartana's solid defense stat means you need strong coverage, or a special attacker. Otherwise, you fail to KO, and have use another scarfer to revenge kill after that. Two Pokemon I've thought of are Zeraora (adamant fire punch) and Lycanroc dusk (tough claws fire fang). I the former is hard to use outside of revenge killing Kartana, because locking itself into stab brings in Landorus and Zygarde for free (who are somehow more popular than in OU). I haven't tested Lycanroc yet, but it'd still just be one answer.

I'm not sure if it should be banned, but I do feel that Kartana puts more pressure on teambuilding than any other mon, more so than I find comfortable.

 

[Schpoonman]

What is everyone using to deal with Zygarde? The answers I use for DD crumble against Coil and vice versa. I'm having MUCH more trouble with Zygarde than I am Kartana (Magnezone eats everything except Sacred Sword, easy to lure Scarf early game and remove it entirely), and I'm almost at dropping HO for the meta and moving to BO or Balance.

 

[VCrakeV]

What is everyone using to deal with Zygarde? The answers I use for DD crumble against Coil and vice versa. I'm having MUCH more trouble with Zygarde than I am Kartana (Magnezone eats everything except Sacred Sword, easy to lure Scarf early game and remove it entirely), and I'm almost at dropping HO for the meta and moving to BO or Balance.

Fake Out is great for breaking its subs, and given the nature of this meta, you should have fake out on your team. Weavile in particular is great, since it also gets feint, which allows Weavile to hit Zygarde twice before it can hit back (if not fainted or switched). Strong special attackers can break coil sets. I'm not sure which -ate is used for which sets, but both Flygon and Noivern are immune to Terrate extremespeed, and can demolish it with boomburst (which breaks through sub). Zygarde is, unfortunately, one of those pokemon that capitalizes on how much pressure it puts on teambuilding by having a variety of sets that all need different checks; this is true in OU, not just Metagamiate. People have even been voicing their concerns regarding Zygarde in OU. It certainly could use some discussion.

 

[Yung Dramps]

I've played a bit of the meta, and I figure it's time for me to share some sets I've been having fun with.

Beedrill-Mega @ Beedrillite
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Return
- Poison Jab
- Knock Off / Drill Run

Mega Beedrill is, for me at least, the definitive slept-on Mega Pokemon. One of its main features is its blistering speed, outpacing key threats such as Noivern and Tapu Koko. It's biggest asset over Mega Aerodactyl, however, is a really strong pivoting move in U-turn, allowing it to capitalize and build momentum off of what would normally be considered solid checks. Knock Off and Drill Run are also cool coverage, each with their own helpful assets. Fast CM Taunt Tapu Lele is a great partner for it, protecting it from priority RKing while also taking care of Pokemon it struggles with like Zygarde and Poison types like Toxapex.

Entei @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Extreme Speed
- Stomping Tantrum
- Stone Edge

I don't really understand why Arcanine is considered so much better than Entei. While it has Intimidate and some more unique coverage like Wild Charge and Close Combat, Entei still has higher speed and Attack and the downright amazing Sacred Fire, which has the potential to completely neuter normal Arcanine switch-ins like Zygarde, Gyarados and Tyranitar, even with the reduced burn damage, and it can do this without wasting a slot on Will-O-Wisp. It even has Stone Edge for other Arcanines and Enteis! If Arcanine is A or A+, in my eyes, Entei is A or A- at least.

As for bans and suspects, I feel like the most overbearing threats at the moment are Kartana and Zygarde. The former just slaps on a scarf and massacres teams, while the latter has a bajillion viable sets, now with -atespeed spam potential. I also think Tapu Koko is kinda problematic with its combo of high speed and power, but it's kinda low priority, with the former two threats being much more dangerous and in need of action.

 

[ScalchopFren]

Generally speaking, which ability on Zygarde is better? I know it's probably team-dependent, but I'm wondering if there's a general trend, and if so, what that trend is.

 

[Schpoonman]

Fake Out is great for breaking its subs

You do understand that Fake Out on a sub, while it can break its subs, doesn't flinch it, nor is every Zygarde carrying sub? Fake Feint Weavile is an idea that I hadn't considered yet, though.

As for which STAB, both are very good, but I'd say Dragon is a little more popular right now. Dragon ES hits Flygon and Noivern, and you get drawbackless Dragon STAB. Though honestly I'd say it comes down to what type you need for revenge killing for a given team.

 

[ScalchopFren]

https://pokepast.es/a94a5132530b9388

This is a random, slightly oddball team I just finished up. It's vaguely built around a Facade Bulu. You'll understand why it's slightly oddball when you see the second and fifth mons (I heard Arcanine was an issue ¯\_(ツ)_/¯). Since I haven't actually played this OM seriously before, I'm not entirely sure what defines the meta, so if anyone finds any glaring problems with the team (i.e. if there are any threats I would have trouble with) please don't hesitate to share

 

[Infinity Ninja]

Shiny locking is NOT removed in this meta. See my previous post. The simulator is making have either A: a non shiny Tapu Koko, or B: if I want to have a shiny one, I still have to match the event nature. Which effectively means it's still counting the in-game shiny lock. What I'm trying to use: Shiny Jolly Tapu Koko. What it's making me use: Non-shiny Tapu Koko if I want to use any nature other than timid.

Shiny koko was avaidable a year ago - but timid

 

[Akumeoy]

Timid Koko is pretty nice for its damage output vs Kartana, which switches in on physical Koko unless you splash HP Fire, which is pretty anemic without investment. Pixilated Hyper Voice is also cool for hitting Zygarde through subs.

 

[G-Luke]

I've played a bit of the meta, and I figure it's time for me to share some sets I've been having fun with.

View attachment 126312
Beedrill-Mega @ Beedrillite
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Return
- Poison Jab
- Knock Off / Drill Run

Mega Beedrill is, for me at least, the definitive slept-on Mega Pokemon. One of its main features is its blistering speed, outpacing key threats such as Noivern and Tapu Koko. It's biggest asset over Mega Aerodactyl, however, is a really strong pivoting move in U-turn, allowing it to capitalize and build momentum off of what would normally be considered solid checks. Knock Off and Drill Run are also cool coverage, each with their own helpful assets. Fast CM Taunt Tapu Lele is a great partner for it, protecting it from priority RKing while also taking care of Pokemon it struggles with like Zygarde and Poison types like Toxapex.

View attachment 126313
Entei @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Extreme Speed
- Stomping Tantrum
- Stone Edge

I don't really understand why Arcanine is considered so much better than Entei. While it has Intimidate and some more unique coverage like Wild Charge and Close Combat, Entei still has higher speed and Attack and the downright amazing Sacred Fire, which has the potential to completely neuter normal Arcanine switch-ins like Zygarde, Gyarados and Tyranitar, even with the reduced burn damage, and it can do this without wasting a slot on Will-O-Wisp. It even has Stone Edge for other Arcanines and Enteis! If Arcanine is A or A+, in my eyes, Entei is A or A- at least.

As for bans and suspects, I feel like the most overbearing threats at the moment are Kartana and Zygarde. The former just slaps on a scarf and massacres teams, while the latter has a bajillion viable sets, now with -atespeed spam potential. I also think Tapu Koko is kinda problematic with its combo of high speed and power, but it's kinda low priority, with the former two threats being much more dangerous and in need of action.

ppl run defensive Arcanine thanks to how extremely popular Kart is. I've had tons of success with it, usually forcing switches and getting free Will O Wisps

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Do we have a viability ranking for this meta yet?

 

[Pikachuun]

So I'm gonna be holding a small pseudo-suspect poll because people want Zygarde banned, but people also want Kartana banned, so basically post your thoughts as well as your overall vote for both

tl;dr
Should Kartana be banned? Should Zygarde be banned?

This isn't going to be a mutually exclusive thing, so feel free to select both if you think both are busted, and if you think one is than pick that one (or if none just pick none, you get the idea). I'll give it a few days (probably 3-4) for you to weigh in before I tally votes and make the decision

Do we have a viability ranking for this meta yet?

It's been in development by Funbot28 and motherlove but they've decided to wait until after this "suspect" poll ends to post it

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Can't comment on Zygarde as I don't have much experience using it, but Kartana is seriously broken. Steel Return fixes the problem of weak STAB, and between that, Leaf Blade, Sacred Sword and Knock Off it has perfect neutral coverage. Combine perfect neutral coverage with base 181 Attack and you have a monster that can shred teams easily. What's more, with high base Defence it can stomach non Fire type priority well.

 

[VCrakeV]

I'm not entirely sure if either needs to banned, but I'd like to see both to be individually suspected. If this isn't an option, and I have to decide now, I'd ban Kartana and keep Zygarde. I just haven't experienced Zygarde (using or facing) enough to call a ban, but Kartana has definitely showed up. I've abused it under psychic terrain to plow through would-be checks, like Lucario. I've also lost to it many times, since it doesn't take long to snowball, and resists don't matter outside of dedicated checks, like Arcanine. For more of my thoughts, please see previous posts in this thread.

 

[Schpoonman]

Kartana is overrated. Steel/Grass is a garbage STAB combination and it has no way to boost its speed so it's the easiest thing in the world to revenge kill. Its sets are limited to Scarf (literally all I've seen so far), SD (possibly with Z-move), and maybe Band, and those are walled or revenged by the same Pokemon, not accounting for using priority under Psychic Terrain, but people need to try more than Extreme Speed spam. Try Magnezone (or Magneton) if you're really having that much trouble with Choiced Kartana.

Zygarde on the other hand has the bulk to come in multiple times during a game (you sneeze on Kartana with a decent special attacker and it's done) and threaten a sweep at the drop of a hat. Coil and Dragon Dance have wildly different counters, all of which can still be ganked by Dragon or Ground Extreme Speed.

tl;dr Zygarde is the problem, not Kartana. Kartana hits hard but it's predictable and really not that hard to slow down. If you have the wrong Zygarde "answer" in when it boosts you just lose the game.