Gen 1 MieDon + Zapdos Eggyless

[Plague von Karma]

Thanks to Shellnuts for helping me solve some issues with the team, it's been really helpful!

So you may have seen me around here before with a BW RU Team, but my home is RBY! I realized there was an interesting bit of synergy between Rhydon and Zapdos in the current meta and wanted to try it out. This, along with my slight distaste for Exeggutor recently, prompted me to try and produce an Eggyless team featuring these three handsome lads. I'm not the finest RBY player and have some kinks to iron out (namely game sense, fact retrieval and calc remembrance), but I'm out to improve and what better place to start?

My thought process
So as some may know, I have the thought process of a caffeinated squirrel. As such, I tend to make a lot of decisions in a short space of time. Do they work? Sometimes...anyway.

I usually work with the lead first when building RBY teams, and since I had Rhydon in mind, of course, I'd tack on Starmie. It makes a good sleep sack to sacrifice to the Dark Goddess known as Jynx, and covers a lot of Rhydon's issues. Given the history of the synergy of the two, there wasn't much reason to not go for this strategy.

So next, I add Rhydon. Reflect Chansey is fairly popular, so it has a good meta call given its ability to beat it with relative consistency. It also absorbs Electric-type attacks and Thunder Wave for Starmie, which is very helpful; this makes it easier to get it in and force damage. I also wanted to try out Rest Rhydon to be more aggro against MonoLax, essentially making Rhydon into some kind of anti-Reflect beast.

This was where I realized Mie-Don-Dos seems like a good core to play with. If the Lax I'm trying to check with Rhydon has Earthquake - which they often do to be safer on Chansey - Zapdos can come in to check it instead. I like this combined pressure - I frankly despise fighting Lax - though I can't bring Zapdos in too early. If Rhydon comes in, this team is in an awful spot, and it's definitely one of the team's bigger problems.

And so, with the three stooges in hand, it was time to get my role compression. Also known as, picking the members of The Big 4 that fit the team best. Given I want to go Eggyless, you can already see what I'm gonna pick.

So initially, I added Chansey to make up for Rhydon's special weaknesses, and intended to use a Reflect build. I then realized that since my team was going to be Eggyless, Sing Chansey was a much better choice. Shellnuts also recommended Counter and Ice Beam, which shored up my issues with other MieDon teams quite well. Counter Chansey is also among my favourite surprise options, so it's always nice seeing that around.

No brainer. Tauros is the revenge killer, and not using it is the first sign you're not playing RBY correctly. There's a reason it's always near 100% usage, and that's the sheer wallbreaking power this beast has. If Tauros is still in the back, the game isn't over.

Another no brainer, Lax has amazing bulk to allow it to absorb Hyper Beams for the team if Rhydon is in a bad spot. I went with Reflect Lax but had issues picking the last move; I settled on Hyper Beam since I didn't really want to boom and only had one other user of it on the team. I also have to be prepared for Lax mirrors, as they're extremely common early-game.

With this, I came up with this draft. It's very flawed, so don't use that, but Shellnuts gave some great criticism that improved the team immensely. The results are below!

The Team

Starmie
- Thunderbolt
- Surf
- Recover
- Thunder Wave
Starmie is my lead, mainly for the fact it can get the jump on Jynx using Thunder Wave while serving as a good status absorber. Starmie is very capable of functioning paralyzed or asleep, the latter being mostly remedied by its speed making it easier to wake up. I did have Blizzard initially, but moved to Surf to better beat Rhydon while getting more damage on Alakazam. This loses pretty badly to Egg openings due to the lack of Blizzard, but they're not the most common thing on earth. Thunderbolt is around since Blizzard's coverage would otherwise overlap too much, and I really need to win Starmie mirrors to serve as a good lead.


Rhydon
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Rest
- Substitute
The first thing you may be wondering about here is "Ay Plague, where's that Rock Slide?". Personally, I've not been liking it much lately. The coverage is quite specific, and Body Slam + Earthquake already covers plenty of the format. It's not like Zapdos is actually going to win against Rhydon, eh? It makes Lapras, Moltres and Articuno much harder matchups, but these are so rare/niche that it doesn't matter much to me. I like having Rest for the ability to duel Reflect Chansey and Snorlax much more aggressively. Reflect Chansey's Seismic Tosses won't break Rhydon's 103 HP Substitutes in one go, giving me free turns to burn off the Rest or get my free damage in. As a result, Rhydon becomes an effective check there. Reflect Snorlax also tends to not carry Earthquake too often, and even if it does, Zapdos can come in and check pretty nicely. Overall, there's really not much need for Rock Slide here, and as a result, I can use Rhydon much more throughout a game. It's heat, and good heat at that!


Zapdos
- Thunderbolt
- Drill Peck
- Thunder Wave
- Agility
Zapdos is so fun to use, man. This is my primary Exeggutor check, hell I sometimes even paralyze Zapdos on purpose! I can Agility up and then try to force my way through that bloody tree. Thunderbolts from Zapdos are something to behold, it drops so many threats for this team and it wouldn't be the same without it. Its bulk also makes it good paralysis support, adding synergy with Rhydon and enabling it to continue its onslaught. If I can paralyze a Starmie, Zapdos and Rhydon can be used in a two-pronged assault that makes it much easier to take out. I just really, really need to be careful of Blizzard...


Chansey (F)
- Sing
- Ice Beam
- Soft-Boiled
- Counter
Chansey compresses a lot of the missing roles on the team. Sing ensures I have some kind of Sleeper on the team, and if I really want to, I can make it my lead. Ice Beam serves as another way to out opposing Rhydon; they tend to get way too comfortable when switching in. Counter is one of my favourite parlour tricks, but it's also important against Snorlax and Tauros trying to knock Chansey into Hyper Beam range. Few RBY teams go without Counter, so I had to have it somewhere, eh?


Tauros (M)
- Body Slam
- Hyper Beam
- Blizzard
- Earthquake
The King of Gen 1, Tauros serves as the revenge killer of the team. Body Slamming a Chansey and proceeding to Hyper Beam it to kingdom come never gets old, and if I get a crit, even bloody better. As per usual, Tauros is used late-game once the opposing team has been weakened to close it out. There's not much else to say here, Tauros has been explained dozens of times for over 20 years. Same set, different day.


Snorlax
- Body Slam
- Reflect
- Rest
- Hyper Beam
I'm using MonoLax here, as Earthquake's targets (Gengar, etc) are handled perfectly fine by Tauros and Rhydon already. Ice Beam is already on Chansey as well and didn't really have much of a place either, as Rhydon (the main target) can't switch in on anyone but Zapdos anyway. Self-Destruct didn't fit due to the aim of that being to kill Chansey: that's what my Rhydon set is for. Hyper Beam became the choice in the end and was pretty much the only option left. It works well, as my only other Hyper Beam user was Tauros. The rest of the set is pretty standard, not much to say there.

So, what do you think? Feel free to tear the team apart, I do want to improve it (specifically Lax), and think it can be taken quite far. Want to take it for a spin? Click here to get that tasty Pokepaste. Or, see below.

I hate clicking links club, now accepting members!

Starmie
Ability: none
- Thunderbolt
- Surf
- Recover
- Thunder Wave

Rhydon
Ability: none
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Rest
- Substitute

Zapdos
Ability: none
- Thunderbolt
- Drill Peck
- Thunder Wave
- Agility

Chansey (F)
Ability: none
- Sing
- Ice Beam
- Soft-Boiled
- Counter

Tauros (M)
Ability: none
- Body Slam
- Hyper Beam
- Blizzard
- Earthquake

Snorlax
Ability: Immunity
- Body Slam
- Reflect
- Rest
- Hyper Beam

 

[Ortheore]

What up Plague. I find it interesting seeing your rationale and teambuilding process, because there's some that I disagree with.

Regarding the team itself, opposing Rhydon seem extremely problematic for two reasons. The first is that your switch in options are limited- Taur and Zap aren't options, Chansey is 2HKO'd, so it only works if Don is in KO range, Lax is slower, Don only works if you predict RSlide and even then it's a speed tie. That leaves Starmie, which does work, but in the lead position it stands a high chance of absorbing status, which basically negates it as a Don check.

The second (and more important imo) reason is that your team is short on reliable status options- if Star absorbs sleep, your only para user is Zap, which gets hard walled by Don- this leaves you reliant on paraSlam to spread para. Unfortunately, I don't see any good solutions- the only obvious change is to drop Counter for TWave on Chansey. I don't really think this team needs Counter, and TWave on Chansey is at least something, even if Chansey's not the greatest para spreader due to its poor offensive output. More drastic options would be to drop Lax (ew, no), or perhaps try leading a Normal (I'm not sure that this would even have the desired effect, and they're not great as leads anyway)

Normally if I'm thinking of pairing Don with Zap, I'm worried about switching into Blizz, but I'd say Star and Chans should suffice to cover it
=================
Differences in rationale

• I find it really interesting that you start with the lead, because that's almost always the last choice for me
• "Few RBY teams go without Counter so I had to have it somewhere" this actually really bothers me, because I really don't think it's true- I think Counter's kinda a semi-niche option and I barely use it. I don't see any reason why you'd "have" to have it
• Obligatory note that ReflectIB Chansey is a thing. In any case, I think that RaishSey has really waned in popularity. These days Sing Chans is the trendy set, and although RaishSey is still seen regularly, it's no more the status quo than BoltBeam is imo
• I find it interesting that you cite targeting Don as the main reason for running IBRefLax, since that's something I literally never consider when using that set- I always pick it to win ReflectLax dittos. I actually prefer EQ if I'm targeting Don, but that's more because of its tendency to stay in and trade with AttackLax, which you're obviously not running with IB. That said, my preference for EQ is probably not well-founded, because if you really want to slug it out with Don with IB you can just not use Reflect and then it shouldn't run away

 

[Plague von Karma]

Hey Ortheore, thanks for the thoughts! I'm not that experienced with teambuilding in RBY - it's partly why I'm here - so this is all valuable advice. Definitely ironed out a few misconceptions, which is all part of that process.

Regarding the team itself, opposing Rhydon seem extremely problematic for two reasons. The first is that your switch in options are limited- Taur and Zap aren't options, Chansey is 2HKO'd, so it only works if Don is in KO range, Lax is slower, Don only works if you predict RSlide and even then it's a speed tie. That leaves Starmie, which does work, but in the lead position it stands a high chance of absorbing status, which basically negates it as a Don check.

The second (and more important imo) reason is that your team is short on reliable status options- if Star absorbs sleep, your only para user is Zap, which gets hard walled by Don- this leaves you reliant on paraSlam to spread para. Unfortunately, I don't see any good solutions- the only obvious change is to drop Counter for TWave on Chansey. I don't really think this team needs Counter, and TWave on Chansey is at least something, even if Chansey's not the greatest para spreader due to its poor offensive output. More drastic options would be to drop Lax (ew, no), or perhaps try leading a Normal (I'm not sure that this would even have the desired effect, and they're not great as leads anyway)

Yeah, this team definitely has issues with Rhydon in my experience. It's the main reason I gave Starmie Surf as a means to dispatch it, which as you said isn't concrete given the context of its use. It's not the end of the world, but late-game I've often found it falls short due to that.

One way to remedy it in my mind is to change my lead to Chansey, which would make some sense when changing Counter for Thunder Wave. This, in turn, makes my SurfMie a more reliable threat to Rhydon. Though, I'm not completely sure if that would be wise?

I find it interesting that you cite targeting Don as the main reason for running IBRefLax, since that's something I literally never consider when using that set- I always pick it to win ReflectLax dittos.

That was part of the reason I considered it, but not the actual main one. At the time, Rhydon was at the front of my mind as the team's most pressing issue, as it does struggle as I said before.

I find it really interesting that you start with the lead, because that's almost always the last choice for me

It's what I've done for a really long time in any meta. I mainly do it because I try to think of what I want to open with, and then consider ways to exploit it thereafter. I play a game out in my head, maybe have a damage calc or a bunch out, then go from there. It's probably flawed thinking: as I said initially, I'm not very experienced in teambuilding and I seek to improve in that area.

 

[Gen1UUFan]

Hey this team seems pretty interesting! I just want to add that Thunder on Zapdos is quite viable; some people run Thunder over Agility and keep T-Bolt, while others use Agility (or very rarely another move, like Rest, Reflect, Light Screen, etc.) and drop T-Bolt entirely. It's obviously a huge risk/reward play, and comes down to preference, but in Gen 1 more than many others Thunder is very viable, especially in these situations:
1. Thunder can turn the tide against the bull

Vs. Tauros

Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Tauros: 151-178 (42.7 - 50.4%) -- 0.8% chance to 2HKO
Zapdos Thunder vs. Tauros: 191-225 (54.1 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (effectively 50% after accuracy is factored in, with a 54% chance to paralyze within 2 turns)
This is relevant because Zapdos avoids the 2HKO from Tauros without any crits, and since they're both great endgame mons, this can be a fairly common matchup.

2. Thunder can really help Zapdos avoid getting hit by Blizzards/Strong Water moves

Vs. Waters/Ices

Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Starmie: 241-284 (74.6 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zapdos Thunder vs. Starmie: 306-360 (94.7 - 111.4%) -- 69.2% chance to OHKO (Essentially 50% after accuracy and before crit)
Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Cloyster: 267-314 (88.1 - 103.6%) -- 23.1% chance to OHKO
Zapdos Thunder vs. Cloyster: 336-396 (110.8 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Essentially 70% to OHKO, 91% chance to KO after 2 turns)
Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Slowbro: 280-330 (71.2 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. +2 Slowbro: 139-164 (35.3 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Zapdos Thunder vs. Slowbro: 354-416 (90 - 105.8%) -- 38.5% chance to OHKO
Zapdos Thunder vs. +2 Slowbro: 175-206 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 18.9% chance to 2HKO
Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Jynx: 125-147 (37.5 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Zapdos Thunder vs. Jynx: 156-184 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 72.2% chance to 2HKO
Zapdos Drill Peck vs. Jynx: 142-168 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 0.9% chance to 2HKO

Though there are some situations where Thunderbolt is objectively better...

When to use T-Bolt

Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Lapras: 250-294 (53.9 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zapdos Thunder vs. Lapras: 313-368 (67.6 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Articuno calc is nearly identical)
Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Alakazam: 97-115 (30.9 - 36.7%) -- 71.7% chance to 3HKO
Zapdos Thunder vs. Alakazam: 123-145 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (after accuracy this is more like a 33% chance, so worse than T-Bolt)
Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Gengar: 102-120 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- 83.7% chance to 3HKO
Zapdos Thunder vs. Gengar: 127-150 (39.3 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (See above)
Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Gyarados: 483-568 (122.9 - 144.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

3. Thunder can put a lot more pressure on the opponent in switches and against Reflect users that look to avoid Zapdos's mixed capabilities, especially considering it's got almost the same para chance as Body Slam. With some luck it can even make the difference in the Electric vs. Electric match up as well, though remember, you can't para electrics with Thunder!

Vs. Normals/Electrics

Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Chansey: 117-138 (16.6 - 19.6%) -- possible 6HKO
Zapdos Thunder vs. Chansey: 146-172 (20.7 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Zapdos Drill Peck vs. Chansey through Reflect: 110-130 (15.6 - 18.4%) -- possible 6HKO
Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Snorlax: 156-184 (29.8 - 35.1%) -- 18.6% chance to 3HKO
Zapdos Thunder vs. Snorlax: 197-232 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (as with the Zam calc above, it's about a 33% chance, so twice as good as T-Bolt)
Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Persian: 156-184 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 72.2% chance to 2HKO
Zapdos Thunder vs. Persian: 197-232 (59.1 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (This one could go either way, though para chance could be quite useful)
Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Jolteon: 56-66 (16.8 - 19.8%) -- guaranteed 6HKO
Zapdos Thunder vs. Jolteon: 71-84 (21.3 - 25.2%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. Zapdos: 94-111 (24.5 - 28.9%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO
Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Zapdos: 102-121 (26.6 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Zapdos Thunder vs. Zapdos: 130-153 (33.9 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Raichu: 64-76 (19.8 - 23.5%) -- possible 5HKO
Zapdos Thunder vs. Raichu: 81-96 (25 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

So yeah, obviously all the calcs come with the assumption the opposition is at full health, and obviously the decision for one over the other can be pretty nuanced, but just thought I'd give a little primer of (most) of the relevant OU calcs for Thunder vs T-Bolt. Also don't discount the extra para chance, it can really be valuable! Though of course with Zapdos, unfortunately no choice of thunder stab will fix the fact that

Worst Enemies

Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Rhydon: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Zapdos Thunder vs. Rhydon: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Sandslash: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Zapdos Thunder vs. Sandslash: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. Lvl 2 Diglett: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Zapdos Thunder vs. Lvl 2 Diglett: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
;)

So if you ever want to put a bit more excitement into your games, add Thunder to Zapdos and keep these calcs handy!