Minior Discussion

It should at least be UU. I've never seen a Pokemon that can effortlessly sweep as many Pokemon in UU/OU, even with maximum defensive investment and with as much safety as Minior. Maybe BL if the priority in OU actually turns out to be a problem. But consider that:
-There is a lot of priority hate this generation, so we might be seeing it less, especially if Bruxish and/or Tsareena end up being used much.
-Only specific Pokemon hold Bullet Punch/Ice Shard and are VERY well known for their doing so. So well known you can write a list of them without referring to any actual movepools and then choose checks or counters to support Minior.
-None of the new Pokemon are fast, so uninvested Minior outspeeds an even wider blanket of the game than before.
-Seriously, nothing except like full defense Lunala (252 HP/0 Def isn't enough) and mega Aggron can actually switch in on Minior. If you get rid of priority users, your Minior has a good chance of taking their entire team down unless they use Focus Sash/Sturdy which are both not super common.

Immunity to spikes and ground are good. And also its Stealth Rock weakness is a double edged sword. Rather than being purely bad for Minior like any rock-weak Pokemon, now attacks that do 25-74.9% will put you in range for the sweep instead of 50-99.9%. It opens up many other possibilities that we still have 256 leftover EVs to make happen. They don't all have to go into spatk. We can put just enough in HP so that with 100/100 defenses it reaches unarmored form safely more often than otherwise.
 
People are throwing around 0 EVs but you should run some Speed to outrun some stuff with Shields Up. I think you should run at least 100 Speed Evs to outrun Starmie and Raikou at +2 (base). 188 lets you outrun Mega Manectric
 
People are throwing around 0 EVs but you should run some Speed to outrun some stuff with Shields Up. I think you should run at least 100 Speed Evs to outrun Starmie and Raikou at +2 (base). 188 lets you outrun Mega Manectric
Man, I didn't even think about if he didn't get hit below half. So, if the opponent sees your Minior and switches out into Mega Manectric when you Shell Smash, you can outspeed and get a KO with Earthquake and Stealth Rocks even though you only have 60 base attack and just +1.

+1 252+ Atk Minior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 262-310 (93.2 - 110.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

But my question is, if you are still in the Shields Up phase how can you hope to sweep? Do you just keep hitting them waiting for them to hopefully hit you back with a somewhat powerful move?
 
You don't have to sweep as hard. If you already got rid of priority users, after a Shell Smash you still have 400+ in each offensive stat plus 100 base defenses so, while you won't outspeed and OHKO everything, you're still scary to ignore (STAB Acrobatics off 400+ attack is stronger than Archeops Acrobatics). They can choose to deal with that and if they fail to OHKO you you'll just be unarmored and even stronger. That's why I rather invest in HP than Speed, since HP is what dictates whether or not we get into our armored form or not and we can base how many HP EVs we use around what is good in the meta to always get there against standard sets.
 

termi

the eye of the needle
is a Tiering Contributor
Depending on what tier it will end up in and what that tier's gonna look like, I'd say sets that forgo its Rock STAB for Sub might be quite viable (Flying/Ground coverage is really good). After a Smash it should be able to outspeed most relevant things depending on its spread so it can just Sub until it's within range where it changes forms and sweeps.
 
In terms of a Pokemon that would complement Minior well...

The Pokemon Minior is threatened by are Bullet Punch/Ice Shard/Aqua Jet users, Landorus and Sash users. In OU that's stuff like Scizor, Metagross, Weavile, Azumarill, Landorus, of course, etc. I ended up spending way too much time looking into this but I think Volcanion is a good Pokemon to put in the same team as a Minior. Lets use this set against all of those:

Volcanion @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SpAtk
Ability: Water Absorb
Bold Nature
- Steam Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Bomb
- HP Ice

vs Scizor
4 SpA Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Scizor: 492-580 (143.4 - 169%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In return
252+ Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcanion: 102-120 (28 - 32.9%) -- 87.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

vs Metagross
4 SpA Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 276-326 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
In return
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcanion: 118-139 (32.4 - 38.1%) -- 2.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

vs Weavile
4 SpA Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 342-404 (121.7 - 143.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In return
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcanion: 125-148 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- 49.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

vs Azumarill
4 SpA Volcanion Sludge Bomb vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 196-232 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
In return
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcanion: 152-179 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

vs Landorus-T
4 SpA Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 360-426 (106.8 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In return
252+ Atk Soft Sand Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcanion: 296-350 (81.3 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The only one this set does not definitely win against (unless RNG hax) is defensive Landorus-T though that set can't OHKO 0 def armored Minior either so you get the free Shell Smash:

Defensive Landorus-T vs 100% Minior
0 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Minior: 200-236 (76.6 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

By the time it's next turn you'll already have Shell Smash up and sweep their team.
 
Man, I didn't even think about if he didn't get hit below half. So, if the opponent sees your Minior and switches out into Mega Manectric when you Shell Smash, you can outspeed and get a KO with Earthquake and Stealth Rocks even though you only have 60 base attack and just +1.

+1 252+ Atk Minior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 262-310 (93.2 - 110.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

But my question is, if you are still in the Shields Up phase how can you hope to sweep? Do you just keep hitting them waiting for them to hopefully hit you back with a somewhat powerful move?
When your above 51% Minior is immune to status so your opponent is forced to attack you which of course activates Shields Down. Even with only 60 base Attack it can still do a fair bit of damage. After Stealth Rock you can still Ohko most offensive Pokemon. Latios and Starmie both get ohkoed by +2 Acrobatics after rocks.
 
Toxapex is weak to ground so Landorus would also beat it. Being able to defeat the omnipresent plague that is Landorus-T is important because if it even switches in on Minior mid-sweep, even if it gets killed, it might make the sweep that much harder because of Intimidate.

And yeah, the above post is a main point I use against people who might say "Minior sux because it relies on the opponent's ignorance." Even if you try to dance around Shields Down it'll still OHKO-2HKO anything not defensively invested.
 
Magnezone could also be a good teammate. It can trap and kill Scizor, Skarmory and Ferrothorn and has STAB thunderbolt to wreck Azumarill. The 2 get ok synergy as well with Magnezone resisting rock ice steel and electric moves and minior resisting fire and being immune to Ground
 
This is going to be really gimmicky, but I was thinking of Weakness Policy Infernape as a teammate for Minior.

Okay, it sounds terrible, but here. Consider Minior's counters are Metagross, Weavile, Scizor, Landorus-T, most Garchomp sets and Azumarill, all physical attackers

Lets have an Infernape with this set:

Infernape @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 HP/44 Def/4 SpA/208 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs:
- HP Ice
- Vacuum Wave
- Flamethrower
- Will-O-Wisp

The idea is to take advantage of Infernape being one of the fastest Will-O-Wisp users with access to Fire STAB and decent SpA. This lets it outspeed everything here with maximum speed investment except Mega Metagross (who you still have four slots to build around). Vacuum Wave is to invalidate Weavile, so you can cross it and Mega Metagross off. As well, this set can't really deal with Azumarill, so Mega Metagross and Azumarill can defeat this unless played terribly.

Of course, any non-Mega Metagross is defeated by this, as in:

Non-Mega Metagross:
You outspeed this, of course. The best move for a non-Mega Metagross to do if they want to destroy your Infernape is Zen Headbutt, but you have the ability to burn them first:

  • Max offense Non-Mega Metagross:
252 Atk burned Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 44 Def Infernape: 169-199 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO

Weakness Policy procs and you can retaliate with this:
  • Max SpDef Non-Mega Metagross
+2 4 SpA Infernape Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Metagross: 312-368 (85.7 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Burn then Vacuum Wave and Metagross is dead


Scizor:
Scizor is definitely slower than you, even with maximum speed investment, and trying to cheese you with Bullet Punch is going to do 0 damage. You can choose to OHKO with Flamethrower here, no point even worrying:
+2 4 SpA Infernape Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Scizor: 576-684 (167.4 - 198.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Landorus-T:
This is the one I usually have trouble with in terms of Minior because of how well it deals with it, but an Infernape with investment in bulk and speed is actually a good choice to deal with both of this thing's sets because even with maximum speed investment, you outspeed it and burn it.

  • Defensive Landorus-T
0 Atk burned Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 44 Def Infernape: 186-219 (52.2 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Weakness Policy activates and you retaliate with this:

+2 4 SpA Infernape Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 428-504 (112 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

  • Offensive Landorus-T
252+ Atk Soft Sand burned Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 44 Def Infernape: 291-343 (81.7 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Of course, no need for another HP Ice calc because it's even frailer than the last Landorus-T set.

Garchomp
Mostly a problem because Minior can't OHKO it and it can easily OHKO Minior back, even at 100%, but Infernape has enough speed to outspeed any non-Scarf Garchomp and burn it first.

Whether it's:
  • "Tank" Chomp
0 Atk burned Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 44 Def Infernape: 169-199 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO

Weakness Policy then

+2 4 SpA Infernape Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 408-484 (97.8 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Burn kills it at the end of the turn. If not then Vacuum Wave.

  • Banded Garchomp
Nobody does this much but it's just to show that any Garchomp built for offense is easily dealt with:
+2 4 SpA Infernape Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 408-484 (114.2 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

  • OU Mega Swords Dance
+2 4 SpA Infernape Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 376-444 (105.3 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Azumarill:

You don't really need to see calcs to know Azumarill beats the hell out of any Infernape set, but even after burn:

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power burned Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 44 Def Infernape: 297-351 (83.4 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Azumarill is a problem regardless.

Er, anyway, hopefully nobody takes this as too off-topic. I've already done a ton of Minior's stats in this thread for all and gone through many possibilities with you guys and we have found out that Minior's only real flaw is that it loses to priority users and bulky Ground types. That means that it's a Pokemon that needs a bit of support to work at maximum potential but, as a result, can carry a game on its own if your other teammates allow it to. As a result, finding fitting teammates is probably the most important thing for a successful Minior-centric team.
 
Yeah, I'm devoting myself to developing Minior's meta because I really love and care about it. This is really corny, but when I was much younger I was so obsessed with astronomy that I wanted a Pokemon that actually felt like a celestial/cosmic body and properly represented space. Lunatone, Solrock, Clefairy, Deoxys, etc might have relation to celestial bodies or space, but none of them were actual celestial bodies, just manmade constructs at most. That's why I'm putting all the time into this guy instead of spreading it across too many Pokemon.
 
Yeah, I'm devoting myself to developing Minior's meta because I really love and care about it. This is really corny, but when I was much younger I was so obsessed with astronomy that I wanted a Pokemon that actually felt like a celestial/cosmic body and properly represented space. Lunatone, Solrock, Clefairy, Deoxys, etc might have relation to celestial bodies or space, but none of them were actual celestial bodies, just manmade constructs at most. That's why I'm putting all the time into this guy instead of spreading it across too many Pokemon.
Isn't Beeheyem an alien?
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
People are throwing around 0 EVs but you should run some Speed to outrun some stuff with Shields Up. I think you should run at least 100 Speed Evs to outrun Starmie and Raikou at +2 (base). 188 lets you outrun Mega Manectric
that's wise, it would be silly to let the enemy keep you in shields up form to get an easy revenge kill.
 
that's wise, it would be silly to let the enemy keep you in shields up form to get an easy revenge kill.
It's not a bad idea. 100 speed EVs lets you outspeed base 115 speed with maximum investment, so , by investing in speed, you also outspeed Azelf, Mega Diancie (who is OHKOed by EQ even with shields up), Gengar who now gets OHKOed by EQ, non-Scarf Keldeo, Latis, Mega Metagross (67.7 - 80.3% -- guaranteed 2HKO) damage from EQ and will thus be killed if damaged before or not running Bullet Punch, Mega Pinsir (its Aerilate Quick Attack does 20% and might even break your shields), Serperior who will get OHKOed by Acrobatics like a dog and Thundurus who is OHKOed by both Stone Edge and Power Gem regardless of nature.

In a cleaner list: Azelf, Mega Diancie, Gengar, Keldeo, non Mega Latios/Latias, Mega Metagross, Mega Pinsir, Serperior and Thundurus.

And we still have 156 EVs to spare. I still think preferably to HP so we can more often get into Shields Down because then we're generally bulkier and simultaneously outspeed the threats we're scared of enough to put spare EVs into. Maybe SpA if you run Minior in a sun team and give it Solar Beam or HP Fire.

As well, if the 88 HP EVs let us get into Shields Down against multiple threats we don't normally cover, it would be better than putting the speed into outdoing Mega Manectric since the other situations will come up more often.
 
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I was thinking of the main sets Minior could use and if the others actually think it would be a good choice to invest in its SpA. EQ/Stone Edge/Acrobatics seems like pretty good coverage but I think its special stat and access to Shell Smash make its using one of its special moves valuable. Psychic is useless because we have flying for fighting and ground for poison, but Solar Beam gets rid of water/ground types. If you run Solar Beam on Minior you should also run it in a Sun Team, of course. It would work well with the Infernape/Volcanion suggestions I made earlier, as well.
 
I was thinking of the main sets Minior could use and if the others actually think it would be a good choice to invest in its SpA. EQ/Stone Edge/Acrobatics seems like pretty good coverage but I think its special stat and access to Shell Smash make its using one of its special moves valuable. Psychic is useless because we have flying for fighting and ground for poison, but Solar Beam gets rid of water/ground types. If you run Solar Beam on Minior you should also run it in a Sun Team, of course. It would work well with the Infernape/Volcanion suggestions I made earlier, as well.
You gotta watch for double, and likely triple, Stealth Rock weaknesses on a single team. That a big red flag I see from the start. Also, EdgeQuake + spammable STAB seems really good as it is, although I don't have the time rn to think of Solarbeam's uses.
 
Infernape isn't SR weak, fortunately. To make a team with Minior work you would need something with Defog/Rapid Spin. Likely replace either Volcanion or Infernape for that. Probably Infernape because Volcanion beats Minior's counters pretty handily, though you do lose the fast Will-O-Wisp I valued highly in Infernape.

Solar Beam is what lets Minior defeat water/bulky ground types. If you don't want Solar Beam you can also go HP Fire which makes it OHKO steel types/Scizor as well, which you would usually have to get rid of first. Another reason for Minior in a sun team is that it both resists fire and water damage gets cut in half. At that point it could take a water move from anything that isn't a Choice Band Azumarill or Choice Specs Keldeo. It could even take a hit from a Keldeo running LO with 52 HP EVs:

252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Minior in Sun: 229-273 (83.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Infernape isn't SR weak, fortunately. To make a team with Minior work you would need something with Defog/Rapid Spin. Likely replace either Volcanion or Infernape for that. Probably Infernape because Volcanion beats Minior's counters pretty handily, though you do lose the fast Will-O-Wisp I valued highly in Infernape.

Solar Beam is what lets Minior defeat water/bulky ground types. If you don't want Solar Beam you can also go HP Fire which makes it OHKO steel types/Scizor as well, which you would usually have to get rid of first. Another reason for Minior in a sun team is that it both resists fire and water damage gets cut in half. At that point it could take a water move from anything that isn't a Choice Band Azumarill or Choice Specs Keldeo. It could even take a hit from a Keldeo running LO with 52 HP EVs:

252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Minior in Sun: 229-273 (83.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
There are definitely merits :) I meant likely 3 Rock weaknesses because a Sun team natural wants a hard hitting Fire-type. It's worth nothing though that Steels, Grounds, and Waters can be easily pressured with teammates and weakened (and usually are). Also, you are already hitting everything for Neutral, so you'd have to see if it's worth it :)
 

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