OU Minior


[OVERVIEW]
* Minior's access to Shell Smash, Acrobatics, and nice offensive stats in Core forme gives rise to a sweeping role.
* Immunity to status in Meteor forme helps prevent it from being crippled while setting up.
* It has quite a usable coverage movepool at its disposal, which slightly increases its versatility.
* Its defenses are rather lackluster, even in Meteor forme, and its typing is less than optimal defensively.
* The forme it takes on is dependent entirely upon HP, which is hard to control on the player's part.
* It is weak to common priority moves, and, being unprotected by Psychic Terrain, it is not too difficult to revenge kill.

[SET]
name: Shell Smash Sweeper
move 1: Shell Smash
move 2: Acrobatics
move 3: Stone Edge
move 4: Earthquake
item: White Herb
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

* Shell Smash gives tremendous boosts to Minior's offensive stats, though at the cost of its defenses.
* +2 Acrobatics after White Herb is consumed deals considerable damage to anything that does not resist it.
* Stone Edge is a strong secondary STAB move that hits Celesteela and Rotom-W harder than any of its other Rock-type moves.
* Earthquake provides solid coverage against foes that Minior's STAB moves don't hit.

Set Details
========

* 252 Attack EVs ensure Minior hits everything as hard as it can, and its Attack is augmented even further after a Shell Smash.
* 252 EVs in Speed and a Jolly nature will let Minior outspeed Pheromosa and Choice Scarf Landorus-T, Tapu Lele, and Excadrill after a Shell Smash, all in Meteor forme.
* A spread of 172 HP / 84 Spe could be run in order to outspeed everything up to and including neutral-natured Volcanion before a Shell Smash and Thundurus afterward, and the HP allows Minior to survive Adamant Landorus-T's Stone Edge and Celesteela's Heavy Slam in Meteor forme.
* Focus Sash is useful if you want Minior to survive a strong hit, get into Core forme, and hit back harder. This, however, makes it harder to properly control, as it must ensure its Focus Sash will break to get the full power from Acrobatics.
* Substitute is also an option to consider over Stone Edge; while not adding to Minior's coverage, it allows Minior to chip down right into its Core forme after Stealth Rock damage while keeping a pseudo-immunity to status.

Usage Tips
========

* This is meant to be a late-game sweeper, taking care of the opposing team once it gets a chance to set up and everything has been weakened to an extent.
* Try to get rid of its checks and counters before sending it out, but if they're sufficiently weakened, Minior can still clean them up after setting up.
* Given its frailty and Stealth Rock weakness, do not try to send this set in too early, or its cleaning abilities will be greatly compromised.

Team Options
========

* Steel-types like Magnezone, Metagross, and Excadrill help cover its Rock- and Ice-type weaknesses. Magnezone is especially useful for getting rid of Mega Scizor, a major threat to its sweep, along with other Steel-types like Celesteela, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn.
* Physically defensive Rotom-W is a great teammate, resisting Ice-type and Electric-type moves and helping stop common priority users like Mega Metagross and Mamoswine.
* Apart from Rotom-W, other blanket checks to Electric- and Water-types are appreciated, like Amoonguss, Ferrothorn, and Mega Venusaur.
* As Minior is meant to OHKO everything that's left, Stealth Rock setters like Mamoswine are almost a necessity.
* Memento from Dugtrio or Aurora Veil from Alolan Ninetales are options to consider if you want a way to lower the opposing team's offensive power to make it easier for Minior to set up and sweep.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

* Minior can run a suicide lead set with Stealth Rock, but it is generally outclassed by Pokemon like Aerodactyl and Azelf.
* Double-Edge could be used if you want to knock Minior into Core forme rather than having your opponent do it for you. If Minior is faster than the opponent's Pokemon, however, it may end up having to take a hit with lowered defenses, which is not something you'd want it to do.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Priority**: Priority attacks are relatively common, and Ice Shard, Bullet Punch, and Aqua Jet are all super effective against Minior. Minior cannot be protected by Psychic Terrain, so these priority attacks are all capable of deterring Minior after it has been weakened.

**Speed**: Fast Pokemon that can outspeed a boosted Minior while it is still in Meteor forme, such as Pheromosa and Choice Scarf Tapu Lele, Excadrill, and Garchomp, can all hit back with a strong move and potentially end a sweep before it has even begun.

**Bulky Steel-types**: Skarmory, Celesteela, and Mega Scizor do not appreciate taking repeated hits from a boosted Minior; however, they can set up and/or stall out a few turns of the sweep and, in the case of the latter two, possibly retaliate with their respective hard-hitting Steel-type moves.

**Bulky Water-types**: Gastrodon, physically defensive Rotom-W, and Azumarill can all safely switch in as Minior Shell Smashes, take a hit, and retaliate with a Water-type move.

**Physically Defensive Pokemon**: Hippowdon, Rotom-W, and Ferrothorn are capable of taking even its strongest hits and either phazing it out or retaliating with an OHKO of their own. Quagsire just ignores all of its boosts, and Landorus-T lowers Minior's Attack and threatens with a Stone Edge of its own.

**Stealth Rock**: While Minior appreciates anything that can get it closer to Core forme, Stealth Rock is still going to take out a large portion of its HP, and this can put it into range of an OHKO it might have otherwise avoided.
 
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Wait so, if I'm not mistaken, it's possible to have Minior enter the match in Shields-down form at full health. If it's still above 50% health after the first turn, it'll revert to shields-up. I read this somewhere in the battle mechanics thread, I can probably dig it up if that helps. I believe that might be ideal for the suicide lead set. So I'm wondering, is that considered a separate Minior form? And if not, assuming it's viable that way, how would you make it clear in the analysis that that's the form to use?
 
Wait so, if I'm not mistaken, it's possible to have Minior enter the match in Shields-down form at full health. If it's still above 50% health after the first turn, it'll revert to shields-up. I read this somewhere in the battle mechanics thread, I can probably dig it up if that helps. I believe that might be ideal for the suicide lead set. So I'm wondering, is that considered a separate Minior form? And if not, assuming it's viable that way, how would you make it clear in the analysis that that's the form to use?
I have used Minior on my in-game team, and that's not exactly how Shields Down works. Minior is, by default, in Core form in its Poké Ball, and Shields Down is always active. If Minior enters battle with more than 50% HP after hazard damage, Shields Down deactivates and it reverts to Meteor Form on the same turn it is sent out. Core and Meteor Forms are different forms, but the form Minior is in is dependent upon its HP, which means the trainer must use whichever form Minior's HP dictates it to be.
 
I have used Minior on my in-game team, and that's not exactly how Shields Down works. Minior is, by default, in Core form in its Poké Ball, and Shields Down is always active. If Minior enters battle with more than 50% HP after hazard damage, Shields Down deactivates and it reverts to Meteor Form on the same turn it is sent out. Core and Meteor Forms are different forms, but the form Minior is in is dependent upon its HP, which means the trainer must use whichever form Minior's HP dictates it to be.
It makes sense that it reverts to meteor form the turn it's sent in, but does that hold true if it's used as a lead, or sent out after a teammate is KOed? I understand the activation occurs based on Minior's HP at the end of the turn, so if you use it as a lead, won't it be in its core form for that first turn?

Edit: Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.
 
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It makes sense that it reverts to meteor form the turn it's sent in, but does that hold true if it's used as a lead, or sent out after a teammate is KOed? I understand the activation occurs based on Minior's HP at the end of the turn, so if you use it as a lead, won't it be in its core form for that first turn?
It reverts to Meteor Form upon being sent out unless its HP is under 50% or if hazard damage causes it to get there. Shields Down does an HP check at all times.
 
Just a suggestion I would have it like:

name: Shell Smash Sweeper
move 1: Shell Smash
move 2: Acrobatics
move 3: Stone Edge / Power Gem / Rock Slide
move 4: Earthquake / Explosion
item: White Herb
ability: Shields Down
nature: Adamant / Naughty
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def

You honestly don't need to run any Speed evs at all unless you want to out speed something in particular before a shell smash, after a shell smash in Shields Down form it doesn't really need any speed evs, with only a couple of things out speeding it. You could run 80 speed evs to outrun timid Kingdra in rain, but that is more of a niche situation. I feel like the biggest problem that this thing has is that it is not threatening unless it is in Shields Down form. This makes it extremely easy to play around as people can switch to something that can just outright OHKO it in Meteor form while not being very threatened. Also note that Pokemon like Landorus-T can switch in, and with Intimidate, use up your White Herb so that your defenses are lowered upon shell smash. This allows it to outright OHKO 100% of the time it with a Scarf Set with Stone Edge, while still out speeding Minior due to it being in Meteor Form. The 4 Defense ev causes Genesect to get a Special Attack boost as you can some of the time survive a +1 Ice Beam, but you never survive a +1 Iron Head in meteor form.

On an offhand not I'm not sure how viable this is in OU with the Shell Smash Set as I feel it is fairly easy to play around. I think that the Support set may need to be the first set. Also to note Acrobatics becomes useful on the Support Set once the Focus Sash has been used so you could mention it in OO, but that probably more up to people with more experience than I, and your personal preference.
 
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For the shell smash set I would say to slash Sub as well in the last slot. Lets you activate Shields Down by yourself, meaning that the opponent has a harder time playing around it
 

GMars

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Here are the relevant speed tiers:

upload_2016-12-3_23-56-31.png

+0 Speed Shields-Up
Key ones you can EV to outspeed:
Band Azu - 8 Speed EVs
Uninvested Volcanion - 84 Speed EVs
Belly Drum Azu - 88 Speed EVs
88 Speed Specs Magnezone - 92 Speed EVs
Uninvested Heatran - 140 Speed EVs

upload_2016-12-4_0-24-18.png


+2 Speed Shields-Up
Key ones you can EV to outspeed:
+Speed Kyurem-B - 16 Speed EVs
+Speed Base 100's - 36 Speed EVs
Lati@s, Gengar - 80 Speed EVs
Thundurus - 84 Speed EVs
Serperior - 92
Scarf Magnezone (Bottle cap to bypass 30 speed IV)- 100
Starmie - 100
Alakazam - 124
Weavile - 144
Neutral Scarf Hoopa-U - 156
Scarf Magneton (Bottle capped) - 164
Tapu Koko - 168
Scarf Excadrill - 204
Scarf Heatran - 212
+Speed Scarf Hoopa-U - 232

upload_2016-12-3_23-58-16.png


+0 Speed Shields-Down
Key ones you can EV to outspeed:
+Speed Heatran - 8 Speed EVs
Feraligatr, Diggersby - 16
Adamant Lando-T - 20
+Speed Base 80's - 32
+Speed Gyarados - 44
Neutral Kyurem-B, Zygarde - 52
Neutral Base 100's - 92
Jolly Excadrill - 104
Jolly Lando-t - 132
+Speed Kyurem-B - 164
+Speed Base 100's - 208
Alakazam, Jolly Mega Pinsir - 252

upload_2016-12-3_23-58-32.png


+2 Speed Shields-Down
Key ones you can EV to outspeed:
Jolly Excadrill in Sand - 108 Speed EVs


Here are the relevant defensive investments:
upload_2016-12-4_0-4-44.png

These were done so that you had a 93.7% chance to survive a hit which would knock you out at 0 HP Investment, giving you usually about 12 more EVs to dump into speed than if you EV'd for a guaranteed 2hko.

Bulk, Shields-Up Form
Most important attacks you can EV to live:
Jolly Lando-t Stone Edge: 64 HP EVs
Rotom-W Hydro Pump: 120 HP EVs
Jolly Gyarados Waterfall: 144 HP EVs
Scarf Keldeo's Scald, Adamant Lando-t's Stone Edge, Uninvested Celesteela's Heavy Slam: 168 HP EVs

You probably also want even HP on your spreads to trigger shields down after 2 rocks switchins if need be.

Finally, the choice of rock coverage.
As I showed in my last post, power gem is the better option for consistency if you're able to get up to get to +2 in shields-down form. However, I did not consider being in +2 shields-up form. I've noticed as people get more familiar with the mon, I often end up at +2/+2/+2 in shields up, so I calc'd stone edge and power gem versus every mon in the different shields up and shields down cases.

upload_2016-12-4_0-10-41.png


The final result is that you need to rely on rock coverage to maximize damage on 130 different sets in the meta. The condition for stone edge being better in an instance than power gem is that power gem does not OHKO after chip, while stone edge does OHKO after chip. This is the result:

upload_2016-12-4_0-12-34.png


These results are for one shell smash. For 46.15% of the sets, you want stone edge in shields up form.
The 16 sets where you want edge in shields down form are bulky gyarados, kyurem, and kyurem-black with no stealth rocks up.

These sets do need to be weighted on usage, but that should likely only change the numbers by ~10%. Comparing stone edge being better in then 35% of cases to its 20% miss chance, stone edge now seems to be the better option for a more consistent rock STAB in this meta.


Of course, explosion and substitute are other cool options that should be considered. As for which move to replace, if you replace EQ you're walled by steel types, so you'd need very good support, like magnezone or dugtrio. If you replace your rock move, you're walled by nearly untrappable mons like zapdos and thundurus. However, these mons are less common in the meta right now than steel types in general and may be able to be picked off by acrobatics after 1-2 rocks switchins. Just something to consider.

Here's the set I've been using:

Minior @ White Herb
Ability: Shields Down
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Acrobatics
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

It has a 93.7% chance to live up to adamant lando-t's stone edge and scarf keldeo's scald (and can't be burned due to shields down activating at the end of the turn), even HP to trigger shields down after 2 rocks switch-ins if need be, outspeeds Thundurus in shields up form after a smash, and has maximized attack. Let me know if you see any other cool spreads from the calcs!

Just a suggestion I would have it like:

name: Shell Smash Sweeper
move 1: Shell Smash
move 2: Acrobatics
move 3: Stone Edge / Power Gem / Rock Slide
move 4: Earthquake / Explosion
item: White Herb
ability: Shields Down
nature: Adamant / Naughty
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def

You honestly don't need to run any Speed evs at all unless you want to out speed something in particular before a shell smash, after a shell smash in Shields Down form it doesn't really need any speed evs, with only a couple of things out speeding it. You could run 80 speed evs to outrun timid Kingdra in rain, but that is more of a niche situation. I feel like the biggest problem that this thing has is that it is not threatening unless it is in Shields Down form. This makes it extremely easy to play around as people can switch to something that can just outright OHKO it in Meteor form while not being very threatened. Also note that Pokemon like Landorus-T can switch in, and with Intimidate, use up your White Herb so that your defenses are lowered upon shell smash. This allows it to outright OHKO 100% of the time it with a Scarf Set with Stone Edge, while still out speeding Minior due to it being in Meteor Form. The 4 Defense ev causes Genesect to get a Special Attack boost as you can some of the time survive a +1 Ice Beam, but you never survive a +1 Iron Head in meteor form.

On an offhand not I'm not sure how viable this is in OU with the Shell Smash Set as I feel it is fairly easy to play around. I think that the Support set may need to be the first set. Also to note Acrobatics becomes useful on the Support Set once the Focus Sash has been used so you could mention it in OO, but that probably more up to people with more experience than I, and your personal preference.
One thing I want to note, if the defense and the special defense of a mon are equal, download gives a special attack boost, so no defense EV is required to live scarf genesect's attacks.

252 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Minior: 248-294 (81.5 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 8 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Minior: 228-270 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


I'll include a few more spreads below as they pop up:

Minior @ White Herb
Ability: Shields Down
EVs: 84 HP / 252 Atk / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Acrobatics
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Main goal is to outspeed and ohko tapu koko after a shell smash while still in shields up form. Sets up on timid scarf tapu lele, and has a 70% chance to live scarf genesect iron head:

+2 252+ Atk Minior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 332-392 (118.1 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Edit: One last thing I'd like to mention is that Minior is outclassed as a suicide lead in postbank OU by Azelf. It's too slow in shields up form to avoid taunts, and acrobatics + focus sash can be unreliable. Shell smash is the most effective niche Minior has in OU, so that set should be placed first in the analysis.
 

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jc104

Humblest person ever
is a Top Contributor Alumnus
I think it is probably worth running the 168 Speed EVs to outrun Tapu Koko with shields up at +2. It's very, very common at the moment, and goes from being a hard counter to completely losing. Beyond that you have to go a fair way before finding anything else on GMars's very helpful list.

edit: whoops sorry GMars. Guess I should stop trying to post on my phone lol
 
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GMars

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I think it is probably worth running the 168 Speed EVs to outrun Tapu Koko with shields up at +2. It's very, very common at the moment, and goes from being a hard counter to completely losing. Beyond that you have to go a fair way before finding anything else on ace combat's very helpful list.
When your list gets misattributed :I lol

In that case, the optimal set would look something like:

Minior @ White Herb
Ability: Shields Down
EVs: 84 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 168 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Acrobatics
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Keeping even HP to proc shields down after 2 rocks switchins should you need to, while keeping Defense >= SpDef for scarf Genesect
 

GMars

It's ya boy GEEEEEEEEMARS
is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
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For team options you should note Tapu Lele as an option due to Psychic Terrain annulling priority moves.
Psychic Terrain does not protect Minior due to it being part flying.

Magnezone, however, should be noted due to its ability to trap and remove Skarmory and Celesteela, two of the best defensive counters to Minior, as well as Scizor.
 

HotFuzzBall

fuzzy-chan \(ㆁヮㆁ✿)
is an Artist
Psychic Terrain does not protect Minior due to it being part flying.

Magnezone, however, should be noted due to its ability to trap and remove Skarmory and Celesteela, two of the best defensive counters to Minior, as well as Scizor.
ok I legit keep forgetting about that .-.

anyways, I think for team options you could potentially add pivots so they are able to safely bring Minior in to set up. could also mention Rotom-W as a pivot as well.
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
Power Gem seems superior to Stone Edge. It does more damage to Skarm and Lando-T and it doesnt have crap accuracy. Any relevant KOs that it misses?
 

jc104

Humblest person ever
is a Top Contributor Alumnus
Defensive Landorus-T

+2 88 SpA Minior-Down Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-Therian: 225-265 (59 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Minior-Down Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Landorus-Therian: 192-226 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's a pretty marginal increase, and it'll be even more marginal against Landorus with more attacking spreads.

Skarmory

+2 252+ Atk Minior-Down Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 169-201 (50.5 - 60.1%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 88 SpA Minior-Down Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 250-295 (74.8 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Again, I'm being as generous as I can to Power gem with the spread. They're both 2HKOs although the difference is more marked here.

So I'm not especially impressed with Power Gem other than for accuracy. Mostly you're just going to be using acrobatics/eq so I'm not sure it's worth decreasing your defenses.

edit: Having run some calcs I'm not overly impressed by Stone Edge either. Other than doing a lot more to Celesteela it seems to make fairly little difference. There are a few things like Rotom-W, Dragonite, and Zapdos where edge is helpful. Overall though I think the question is more bulk vs accuracy.
 
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GMars

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Power Gem seems superior to Stone Edge. It does more damage to Skarm and Lando-T and it doesnt have crap accuracy. Any relevant KOs that it misses?
In +2 Shields Up without rocks up, 252 Atk Adamant, you need Stone Edge to OHKO the following mons:

+2 Shields Up 0- SpAtk:
  • Aerodactyl
  • Charizard-Mega-X
  • Crobat
  • Dragonite
  • Entei
  • Gyarados
  • Kyurem
  • Kyurem-Black
  • Mandibuzz
  • Noivern
  • Thundurus
  • Thundurus-T
  • Togekiss
  • Victini
  • Volcanion
  • Zapdos
With Stealth Rock up, you take out all but the following:
  • Bulky Wisp Zard-X (but you beat it 1v1)
  • Gyarados
  • Kyurem
  • Kyurem-Black
  • Mandibuzz
  • Togekiss
  • Victini
  • Zapdos
If you use a different spread, you take out all but the following:

+2 Shields Up 88 SpAtk, No Rocks:
  • Aerodactyl-Mega
  • Bulky Wisp Zard-X
  • Support Crobat
  • Dragonite
  • Entei
  • Gyarados
  • Kyurem
  • Kyurem-Black
  • Mandibuzz
  • Togekiss
  • Victini
  • Volcanion
  • Zapdos
+2 Shields Up 88 SpAtk, Rocks:
  • Mandibuzz
  • Stallbreaker Togekiss
  • SpDef Zapdos
You OHKO all above mons by running Stone Edge over Power Gem.

upload_2016-12-6_1-29-6.png


The key defensive counters to +2 Shields Down are Rotom-Wash, Skarmory, and Celesteela.

Rotom-Wash

+2 252+ Atk Minior-Down Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 205-243 (67.6 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


+2 0- SpA Minior-Down Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 145-172 (47.8 - 56.7%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


+2 88 SpA Minior-Down Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 178-210 (58.7 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


--


+2 252+ Atk Minior Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 151-178 (49.8 - 58.7%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 0- SpA Minior Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 97-115 (32 - 37.9%) -- 1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 88 SpA Minior Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 123-145 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


Shields Down: Shields Up:
Edge: 67.6-80.1% 2hko Edge: 49.8-58.7% 2hko
0- Gem: 47.8-56.7% 3hko 0- Gem: 32.0-37.9% 4hko
88 Gem: 58.7-69.3% 2hko 88 Gem: 40.5-47.8% 3hko

Skarmory

PhysDef

+2 252+ Atk Minior-Down Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 169-201 (50.5 - 60.1%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


+2 0- SpA Minior-Down Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 205-243 (61.3 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


+2 88 SpA Minior-Down Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 250-295 (74.8 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Edge: 50.5-60.1% 2hko
0- Gem: 61.3-72.7% 2hko
88 Gem: 74.8-88.3% 2hko

SpDef

+2 252+ Atk Minior-Down Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Skarmory: 222-262 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


+2 0- SpA Minior-Down Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 139-165 (41.6 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


+2 88 SpA Minior-Down Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 169-201 (50.5 - 60.1%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Edge: 66.4-78.4% 2hko
0- Gem: 41.6-49.4% 3hko
88 Gem: 50.5-60.1% 2hko

Celesteela

PhysDef

+2 252+ Atk Minior-Down Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 211-249 (53 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


+2 0- SpA Minior-Down Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Celesteela: 153-181 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


+2 88 SpA Minior-Down Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Celesteela: 186-220 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Edge: 53.0-62.5% 2hko
0- Gem: 38.4-45.4% 3hko
88 Gem: 46.7-55.2% 3hko

SpDef

+2 252+ Atk Minior-Down Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celesteela: 291-343 (73.1 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


+2 0- SpA Minior-Down Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 111-132 (27.8 - 33.1%) -- 88.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery


+2 88 SpA Minior-Down Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 135-159 (33.9 - 39.9%) -- 28.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


Edge: 73.1-86.1% 2hko
0- Gem: 27.8-33.1% 4hko
88 Gem: 33.9-39.9% 4hko

Defensively, by choosing to go 0 HP, -SpDef instead of 84 HP, Neutral SpDef, here's what you miss out on setting up on:

From Full
Rotom-Wash
Scarf Tapu Lele
Offensive Mega Scizor
Zapdos
Modest Tapu Fini
Latias
Manaphy

From 75%
Utility Starmie
Conkeldurr
LO Gengar
Suicune
Zard Y
Rotom-Heat
Defensive Lando-T
Mega Alakazam


0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Minior: 276-326 (105.7 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


+1 252+ SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Minior: 270-318 (103.4 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO


252+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Minior: 240-284 (91.9 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO


0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Minior: 260-308 (99.6 - 118%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO


0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Minior: 234-276 (89.6 - 105.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO


252+ SpA Tapu Fini Scald vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Minior: 258-306 (98.8 - 117.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO


184 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Minior: 259-305 (99.2 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO


252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Minior: 242-288 (92.7 - 110.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

---

4 SpA Starmie Scald vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Minior: 194-230 (74.3 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Minior: 192-226 (73.5 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Minior: 188-224 (72 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Minior: 176-210 (67.4 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252+ SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Minior: 186-219 (71.2 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


0 SpA Rotom-Heat Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Minior: 176-210 (67.4 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Minior: 200-236 (76.6 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Minior: 205-243 (78.5 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


--


4 SpA Starmie Scald vs. 84 HP / 0 SpD Minior: 174-206 (61.7 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 84 HP / 0 Def Minior: 192-226 (68 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 84 HP / 0 SpD Minior: 172-203 (60.9 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 84 HP / 0 SpD Minior: 158-188 (56 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252+ SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 84 HP / 0 SpD Minior: 167-197 (59.2 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


0 SpA Rotom-Heat Volt Switch vs. 84 HP / 0 SpD Minior: 158-188 (56 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


0 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 84 HP / 0 Def Minior: 200-236 (70.9 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 84 HP / 0 SpD Minior: 153-180 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



tl;dr: Stone Edge is better for damaging Celesteela, Rotom-Wash, and SpDef skarm. It doesn't sacrifice your ability to setup on Rotom-Wash, Tapu Lele, Offensive Tapu Fini, Zapdos, Latias, and unboosted Manaphy, along with several mons after a rocks switchin. If you don't sacrifice defense when using power gem, you also miss out on a few OHKOs when in +2 Shields-Up form. The trade off is of course accuracy.
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
hmmm, I think it would appear that Stone Edge is better in that case. Celesteela is quite common.
 
Alright, this is what I could come up with off the top of my head. Thanks to everyone in the comments who has helped me, especially GMars and his walls of calcs. I think this is ready for QC. I probably missed a few crucial things here and there, but I'll take all the advice the QC team gives me to fix that up.

On a technical note, it doesn't seem to let me change the tag from WIP to Quality Control on the Edit Title screen. If a moderator could do this for me, or tell me how to fix this, I'd greatly appreciate it. The same thing happened with my Deoxys-A analysis.
 

GMars

It's ya boy GEEEEEEEEMARS
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Looks good to me! I just want to make one final update on the spread - HP needs to be divisible by 4, not just 2, to trigger Shields Down after two rocks switchins or one rocks switchin + a sub. I missed this earlier. Here's my new and for the time being final spread. Keeps the same defensive rolls as before while still forcing genesect into a +SpA download, and allows you to sub or switch your way into shields down:

Minior @ White Herb
Ability: Shields Down
EVs: 76 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def / 4 SpD / 168 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Acrobatics
- Stone Edge / Power Gem / Rock Slide
- Earthquake / Substitute / Explosion

With the optional Power Gem spread being something like Naughty, 12 HP / 252+ Atk / 76 SpAtk / 168 Spe

252 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Minior: 238-280 (84 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 76 HP / 8 Def Minior: 236-278 (84.2 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

--

0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Minior: 248-294 (87.6 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 76 HP / 4 SpD Minior: 246-290 (87.8 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
 
Looks good to me! I just want to make one final update on the spread - HP needs to be divisible by 4, not just 2, to trigger Shields Down after two rocks switchins or one rocks switchin + a sub. I missed this earlier. Here's my new and for the time being final spread. Keeps the same defensive rolls as before while still forcing genesect into a +SpA download, and allows you to sub or switch your way into shields down:

Minior @ White Herb
Ability: Shields Down
EVs: 76 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def / 4 SpD / 168 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Acrobatics
- Stone Edge / Power Gem / Rock Slide
- Earthquake / Substitute / Explosion

With the optional Power Gem spread being something like Naughty, 12 HP / 252+ Atk / 76 SpAtk / 168 Spe

252 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Minior: 238-280 (84 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 76 HP / 8 Def Minior: 236-278 (84.2 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

--

0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Minior: 248-294 (87.6 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 76 HP / 4 SpD Minior: 246-290 (87.8 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Thanks for this! I was thinking of making it divisible by 4, but was unsure if there was a way to keep the defenses the same. Updated the set with new spread.
 
Mention in Set Details just running Max Speed w/ a Jolly Nature. This lets you, without entering Core form, outspeed Scarf Lele, Pheromosa, Scarf Landorus-Therian, and Scarf Excadrill.

Deslash Rock Slide, Explosion, and Substitute. Earthquake is incredibly important and I don't think it'd be worth running any of those over it. Mention Substitute in Set Details, probably run it over Stone Edge, but don't mention the others in Set Details.

1/3
 

GMars

It's ya boy GEEEEEEEEMARS
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Mention in Set Details just running Max Speed w/ a Jolly Nature. This lets you, without entering Core form, outspeed Scarf Lele, Pheromosa, Scarf Landorus-Therian, and Scarf Excadrill.

Deslash Rock Slide, Explosion, and Substitute. Earthquake is incredibly important and I don't think it'd be worth running any of those over it. Mention Substitute in Set Details, probably run it over Stone Edge, but don't mention the others in Set Details.

1/3
Good catch on that speed tier - 12 HP / 252 Atk / 244+ Spe lets you outspeed those and gives you HP divisible by 4 if you still want to pop into core after 2 rocks switchins. Nothing new for +2/+4 speed in either form between 244 or 252, only thing for 252 over 244 is a speed tie with dugtrio and non-mega zam in +0 core
 

Punchshroom

Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
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the defense and special defense EVs ensure that Genesect gets a Special Attack boost, as Minior is able to survive a +1 Ice Beam from full HP
Wait; this sentence doesn't seem to make sense. Wouldn't the idea be to not make Genesect's Ice Beam stronger to survive the hit? Contrary to the claim here, +1 Genesect almost always OHKOes the current Minior spread from full, and it is 4 Def / 8 SpD that you were aiming for:
+1 252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 76 HP / 4 SpD Minior: 278-328 (99.2 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 76 HP / 8 SpD Minior: 184-218 (65.7 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If anything, I thought the reasoning behind the 4 Def / 8 SpD spread was to prevent CB Genesect's ESpeed from picking Shields Down Minior off at 50% as opposed to surviving even at 40%:
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 76 HP / 4 Def Minior-Down: 139-164 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 76 HP / 8 Def Minior-Down: 92-109 (32.8 - 38.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO
 

GMars

It's ya boy GEEEEEEEEMARS
is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
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Wait; this sentence doesn't seem to make sense. Wouldn't the idea be to not make Genesect's Ice Beam stronger to survive the hit? Contrary to the claim here, +1 Genesect almost always OHKOes the current Minior spread from full, and it is 4 Def / 8 SpD that you were aiming for:

If anything, I thought the reasoning behind the 4 Def / 8 SpD spread was to prevent CB Genesect's ESpeed from picking Shields Down Minior off at 50% as opposed to surviving even at 40%:
Scarf genesect typically only runs 4 or 8 SpA so it can maximize u-turn damage:

+1 4 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 76 HP / 4 SpD Minior: 226-268 (80.7 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 8 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 76 HP / 4 SpD Minior: 228-270 (81.4 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The extreme speed damage thing is a good one to note, but the main idea was you can live scarf iron head 75% of the time if you give genesect the boost to SpA:

252 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 76 HP / 8 Def Minior: 246-290 (87.8 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+1 4 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 76 HP / 4 SpD Minior: 226-268 (80.7 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Compared to:

+1 252 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 76 HP / 4 Def Minior: 372-438 (132.8 - 156.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 76 HP / 8 SpD Minior: 150-178 (53.5 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Last edited:
First of all, I'd like to start out by saying that I'm quite new to actually playing competitively, and mostly used to spectating and reading. Considering myself a breeder by trade, I don't have much in-game knowledge as to what I prefer to counter when laying out my EV spreads. You really have done your homework, GMars! I have spent the last few days reading all your calculations and playing with a few of my own. The problem is, though, that I don't really tend to play on showdown, but in-game. With the pokemon set to LVL. 50, it takes a bit of adjustment to maximize the spreads you've laid out, particularly for a noob like me.

Since I'm determined to make the most out of this little guy, do you have any suggestions as to how the spread should be made? I'm just so torn between whether or not to use Power Gem, because you make so many convincing arguments for both sides. Personally, I really like the accuracy and special coverage, but it's looking like all around, Stone Edge has the upper hand. Would I really lose out on much if I simply go with -0 SPA investment, should I choose to change it up?
 

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