Metagame Misdreavus = dead, Fletchling = alive

[blarajan]

Ok well based off of the nomination votes: Misdreavus AND Fletchling have been nominated as suspects. Praise the lord and fuck #freeyanma.

list of people who got suspect reqs and can be selected for council

Tricking
GlassGlaceon
Fran17
Corporal Levi
Fiend Hound
Hawkstar
Peef Rimgar
lockiegengar12
Hakumen
Yagura
Diana
srk1214
Plead
TCR
sparktrain
Slashari
Cydrolic
TheFenderStory
Champion Fizz
migzoo
Obvious Power
supercoven94
Vileman
Alphose_Elric
Sweep
macle
Toa Tahu
RZL2000
Sken
Paleo
Eren Yeagar
Legitimate Username
Cinco Diablo
Washibon
Unfixable
cityfolk
Superpowerdude
Melonz
Ecuacion
Genesis7
DeathxShinigami
zeriloa
fatty
KS2
Rowan
Talpr0ne
Celticpride034
blizzardy
Max Carvalho
QuoteCS
Fra71
Kappa_
mostthe3rd
North
fitzy72
Braixeno
Temporaryanonymous
Lord Cilan
apt-get
Metal Sonic
Ecna
The Avalanches
Sunny.
i Myst-O-Gan
Caledrith
Sae Sae
zamb66
Cutie Caitlyn
Flame Emblem
Nightmare Vampire
GuglioM
Cherub Agent
Alexandrine
Aaron's Aron
asterat
RotomPoison
Turtleye
Dubby_Tee
Tidal Waltz
Goddess Briyella
OnlyLove
Mr.378
Mysteria
Livio
V0x
WildBoi113
CrystalNinetales
The Unlucky one
SacredSins
Aerow
kingmidas
MarioAqua
zorbees
ZoroarkForever
HeDancesWithSwords
Felicette
TeZy
Marisson
trev
LightningLuxray
betafader
Apollo77
fliprushman
drag0nic76
gangsterish
galbia
A-Class Porygon
made2joke
Alowe282
kyla-kylls
radianthero156
prem
boo836
Sparkychild
dsr95
jg1198
PokeGyarados
Moral Nihilism
Splashyship
Artemisa
Pikasohn
queenlucy

Thank you very much everybody who helped me figure out who made nominations, voted, compiled the votes, and ensured that everything went legitimately. I really appreciate it. Your efforts won't give you a better chance of making council, but it really was helpful, and you can bet I'll remember it.

If your name is not on this list and it should be, please tell me immediately. Everyone on this list (besides council members) will receive .5 of a vote for the Tiering Contributor badge. If you are chosen for the rotating council / are on the permanent council, you will receive a full vote. However, you can still discuss in this thread if you are not among that list.

Members of the permanent council:

Goddess Briyella prem macle apt-get Corkscrew

Heysup did not qualify for reqs and Chieliee stepped down. I will select TWO members among those who qualified for the permanent council, and FOUR OR FIVE members among those who qualified for the rotating council (these members will receive a full vote for the Tiering Contributor badge). If you believe you should be given consideration for either council based off of things besides discussion in the thread, please PM me before I choose council members.

It takes 7 votes to ban something with 11 voters and 8 with 12.

Discuss these questions regarding the suspects:

1) Is Misdreavus / Fletchling broken?
2) Is Misdreavus / Fletchling making Little Cup not fun?
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

If 1 is satisfied, then 2 and 3 don't matter. If 1 is not satisfied, then the latter qualities in tandem might be worth banning it.

DISCUSS AWAY. Post in this thread with as many (good) replays as you want, explanations of Misdreavus / Fletchling as to whether it is broken or not, or your defense for it. Use Misdreavus / Fletchling's stats and qualities as a basis for your arguments--I do not want to see posts that end at "Misdreavus and Fletchling are really strong" Well made posts outlining your reasoning, well made responses to other people's posts, and just overall discussion in this thread is going to be very much taken into consideration when I decide the council members.

Discussion will be open until like Friday August 8th at night time EST, or until I feel it's winding down and I can choose council members. Don't wait until the end to message me about any special qualifications you may have, else if I have already chosen council members before receiving your message, it probably won't be considered. Unfortunately, I will not be giving special consideration for rap prowess like I stated as these are very important suspects.

Get posting.

 

[Aaron's Aron]

Misdreavus... Should we ban it or not?

My first impression is that we should not. However, I usually run double Scarf (one of them being Pawniard) and Fletchling so I don't have much trouble outspeeding to revenge.

Power and Speed

Well I think the first point to look at is its sheer power and Speed. It hits very hard with STAB Shadow Ball, and not much likes to take hits from it. Misdreavus also has Nasty Plot to boost its Special Attack to even further levels, and virtually nothing wants to be taking hits from a +2 Misdreavus. Not many Pokemon can switch in on one and hope to revenge kill it by outspeeding, as Misdreavus' blistering fast 19 Speed allows it to outspeed most threats. While it is checked by some Pokemon, a teammate generally has to be sacrificed in order to bring in the check cleanly because it can't survive multiple hits. A great example of this would be Choice Scarf Pawniard. It can revenge kill, but it can't switch in during a turn due to the possibility of being hit my numerous harmful moves like Dazzling Gleam, Hidden Power [Fighting], and Will-O-Wisp. Also, now that I am writing this and I think about it, my team doesn't handle Misdreavus as well as I thought. While yes, I just bring in Choice Scarf Pawniard after something dies and revenge kill Misdreavus, it actually wasn't that much of a win for me. Yes I revenged and I got the KO, but Misdreavus also KOd one of my Pokemon before I brought Pawniard in. So essentially it was a 1-for-1 trade, assuming it didn't get any other KOs before this or they don't just switch out and get another KO later. Misdreavus can probably help contribute to another KO as well to make it more like a 2-for-1, and it can even switch out and not be revenged, like I said.

Wide Moveset

As I previously was saying about Pawniard, not much wants to switch in due to the array of different moves Misdreavus could have. Along with its STAB Shadow Ball, it gets numerous great moves for coverage and support like Thunderbolt, Dazzling Gleam, Hidden Power [Fighting], Will-O-Wisp, Substitute, and Destiny Bond. The fact that you don't know which moves Misdreavus is packing in the battle changes the whole way you play, just like not knowing whether Tirtouga is Shell Smash or Eviolite + Solid Rock. If it has Substitute, Foongus just became a bad check since it can't use Spore to put it to sleep. If it has Hidden Power [Fighting], you're Eviolite Pawniard just got in some serious trouble. I think you get the point. You can even take Nasty Plot vs Non-Nasty Plot Misdreavus, as these have capabilities for much different things. With Nasty Plot Misdreavus can set up and sweep, where as non-Nasty Plot variants support the team by spreading more burns with Will-O-Wisp and possibly taking out a key threat with Destiny Bond. These different possibilities enable Misdreavus to beat a wide variety of Pokemon, and few checks can safely come in even after knowing its moveset.

Defensive Presence

Along with being a heavy offensive threat, Misdreavus also has a solid defensive one as well; not so much as a wall, but just as a bulky attacker. With 60/60/85 defenses and an Eviolite, it is easily as bulky as some of the premier walls in the tier like Porygon and Spritzee, just without recovery. This allows it to get plenty of opportunities to set up Nasty Plot if it has it, Will-O-Wisp the opponent to spread burns, and break though the opposing team with Shadow Ball. This bulk gives it the opportunity to switch in and check some opponents, as well continue to apply pressure offensively. Fletchling fails to 2HKO, and Misdreavus can KO back with Thunderbolt / Dazzling Gleam if it is weakened or Will-O-Wisp it. Misdreavus even survives a Knock Off from Fighting-types, and if they are slightly weakened and lost their Eviolite then it can KO with Dazzling Gleam, burn with Will-O-Wisp, or trade Pokemon-for-Pokemon with Destiny Bond.

Shortcomings and Weaknesses

While Misdreavus is great, it has its shortcomings. Knock Off is the obvious first one, as basically every Fighting-type carries it. Misdreavus should check Fighting-types, but Knock Off give them a way to fight back, dealing about 70% damage and knocking off its item if Misdreavus has an Eviolite. This really hinders Misdreavus' ability to check these Pokemon, as it becomes extremely weakened if it switches into this move. If Misdreavus lacks Nasty Plot it greatly suffers from its inability to heal. Pokemon like Porygon and Spritzee can just Recover / Wish + Protect until they can survive two hits and then attack back, and Misdreavus will eventually be whittled down until it faints.

Ban or Not Ban?

So after mulling this all over for a while and writing this, I have decided that I think it should be banned. Its ability to pretty much always get at least a 1-for-1 trade, and generally more, is just insane and can't be over-emphasized. If it is taking out a least one Pokemon, it has done its job right? If it manages to contribute to two KOs that's even better right? Indeed. Swrilix and Gligar could run many different sets and many different moves, and Misdreavus is no different. Its bulk, ablity to set up and sweep, and its blazing Speed earn it the Ban Hammer in my opinion. This is just some points to think about, so what do you guys think?

O and also: lol Psychic

(I am leaving in the morning for a dumb school retreat until Wednesday night. Ughhhh. Bye bye guys!)

 

[Corporal Levi]

Misdreavus

I am of the opinion that Misdreavus, as an offensive threat, is too potent for the rest of the metagame to handle. 60/60/85 bulk is excellent; it is comparable to notable defensive Pokemon such as Spritzee and Vullaby, meaning it will usually take powerful super-effective or boosted attacks to quickly bring Misdreavus down. In addition, Misdreavus possesses 85 base speed, putting it in the second highest speed tier; worthy of mention is that Misdreavus far surpasses every other Pokemon at or above its speed tier in terms of statistical bulk. Its high base 85 Special Attack helps to make up for the low base power of its primary STAB move, Shadow Ball, while its ability, Levitate, although not hugely useful when the most relevant Ground-type, Drilbur, has Mold Breaker, certainly doesn’t bring it down. However, stats alone generally aren’t enough to make a Pokemon broken unless it can actually take advantage of them; what arguably puts Misdreavus over the edge is its phenomenal offensive and supportive movepool.

Thanks to its offensive coverage options, with the more common choices being Dazzling Gleam, Hidden Power Fighting, and Thunderbolt, Misdreavus is able to repeatedly and easily break through a multitude of its would-be checks and counters. Take the following set, for example; no one Pokemon is able to counter every variation of a simple sweeping set.

Hide

Misdreavus @ Eviolite / Berry Juice
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 240 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute / Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting] / Dazzling Gleam
- Nasty Plot

This is problematic because Misdreavus is able to take advantage of its bulk to withstand most of the metagame’s attacks to set up and sweep, or take on most revenge-killers; on top of that, Misdreavus’s speed tier allows it to outspeed almost the entirety of the relevant unboosted metagame and hit incredibly hard with boosted attacks coming off its high Special Attack. In addition, even with any choice of moveslots for the moveset above, the number of Pokemon that can boast to check Misdreavus is remarkably limited regardless; for example, a set of Nasty Plot, Shadow Ball, Will-O-Wisp, and Dazzling Gleam is really only beaten by Porygon, Houndour, some variants of Lickitung, and maybe a few Pokemon that are honestly quite underwhelming outside of defeating this specific Misdreavus set. This means that unless a player plans on relying solely on scarfed Knock Off users and doesn’t mind losing at least one Pokemon every time Misdreavus finds the opportunity to come in, which is especially important because Misdreavus, thanks to its good bulk, will find many, many opportunities to get into play, teams are essentially forced to run a select few Pokemon, where other Pokemon might have otherwise fit the role noticeably better.

Between their roles as bulky sweepers and the fact that no one Pokemon is able to fully counter either of their most common sets, there are quite a few similarities that can be drawn between Misdreavus and a banned Pokemon in Gligar; a look at top of the 1630 stats from the Swirlgar era and the current era demonstrates that even their usages during their peaks are similar.

Hide

January 2014:

1 | Gligar | 47.38179% | 31583 | 32.025% | 26469 | 33.030%

June 2014:

1 | Misdreavus | 47.44165% | 27636 | 24.531% | 22366 | 24.474%

See how similar those numbers are?

In fact, Dcae made a comparison of Gligar and Misdreavus during the Swirlgar discussion thread.
Of course, various factors, including Gligar’s higher base power STAB moves and arguably more notable all-out defensive sets, put Gligar a notch above Misdreavus, but with the banning of huge threats in Meditite, Murkrow, Swirlix, and Gligar itself, the metagame has been somewhat toned down a bit, while Misdreavus most certainly has not gotten any worse, so this is once again a relevant comparison.
Pokemon that lost badly to Gligar, such as Drilbur and Trubbish, were immensely frowned upon regardless of their possible niches, and in a similar vein, otherwise solid Pokemon such as Slowpoke and, once again, Trubbish, frequently find themselves cast aside, for no other reason than that they struggle against the most popular Pokemon in the metagame.

Fletchling

On the other hand, although it is certainly very potent, I do not consider Fletchling to be overtly broken or unfun. Although it has methods to get around all of its checks and counters, every individual set has a large number of checks. This could, of course, be said of every Pokemon, banned or not banned; however, there are two crucial reasons why this applies to Fletchling far more than other suspects, as was briefly outlined in the metagame discussion thread.

1. Fletchling’s methods of getting around its checks are either extremely weak or incredibly easy to play around.

Many of Fletchling’s purported methods of beating things like Chinchou and Archen revolve around utilizing Natural Gift and berries. The problem with this is that it can only be used once in the entire match; this leaves it easily scouted for. More importantly, it weakens Acrobatics; not only does this make it very obvious when Fletchling is holding an item, notifying the opponent to be more wary, but it actually severely detracts from Fletchling’s utility, leaving it unable to fend for itself with such a weak STAB move until this berry is used up, which drastically increases its number of possible checks before natural gift is used and leaves it with the same hard counters after. Overheat is much more reliable than Natural Gift, but still isn’t optimal, because Fletchling will usually have to switch out after using Overheat if it wants to hit something else with the move (or if the Overheat is simply predicted) due to its low damage after the drop, between Fletchling’s low Special Attack and lack of STAB on the move. If Fletchling doesn’t like these, it will usually have to resort to a Hidden Power, which, unless double super effective, is frankly pathetic in its damage output, once again due to a lack of STAB and Fletchling’s low Special Attack, but also because of an atrocious 60 base power; in fact, even Eviolite variants of Tirtouga and Omanyte aren’t OHKOed by a double super effective HP Grass, and can easily OHKO in return, with a STAB Rock-type move in the case of the former, or Ice Beam for the latter.

Hide

196 SpA Fletchling Hidden Power Grass vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 16-20 (76.1 - 95.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

196 SpA Fletchling Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tirtouga: 16-20 (76.1 - 95.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

196+ SpA Omanyte Ice Beam vs. 156 HP / 52 SpD Fletchling: 22-28 (95.6 - 121.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Fletchling: 30-36 (142.8 - 171.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

All of these calcs are as favourable to Fletchling as reasonably possible; 156 HP/196 Atk/252 Def/196 SpA/52 SpD isn’t actually a legal spread for Fletchling, and it’s not fair to assume Stealth Rock is only on one side of the field.

2. Regardless of what coverage options Fletchling chooses to run, the sheer number of completely viable Pokemon that are still able to beat individual Fletchling sets is far more than that of any other LC suspect to date.

This is sort of to be expected when the Pokemon in question has less Attack than Clauncher (I am fully aware that Fletchling has actual physical STAB moves, and is a substantially more dangerous Pokemon than Clauncher in general; I’m trying to emphasize just how low its stats are). If Gligar decided to go with Substitute/Swords Dance/Earthquake/Acrobatics, thus forgoing Knock Off, it would lose to Slowpoke, Archen, and defensive Porygon. If Swirlix went ahead and ran Calm Mind/Cotton Guard/Draining Kiss/Flamethrower, then Calm Mind Spritzee, defensive Ponyta/Larvesta, Berry Juice Magnemite, and Koffing/Grimer would be able to take it on. If Fletchling runs a set of Swords Dance/U-Turn/Overheat/Acrobatics, we’re talking more along the lines of nearly ALL variants of Amaura, Archen, Chinchou, Corphish, Elekid, Nosepass, Omanyte, Onix, Porygon, Shellder, Tirtouga, and Tyrunt being able to win. This might not seem like a huge difference until you realize there probably aren’t many more than 70 viable Pokemon in LC, given the smaller pool of Pokemon. Because there are simply so many more checks available, it’s that much easier to find a spot for a Fletchling check on your team.

Fletchling is also fairly difficult to get into play. Even outside of actual checks, we need to also consider that Fletchling possesses 45/43/38 defenses; this is especially notable because Fletchling can’t viably run Eviolite if it wants to utilize Acrobatics, rendering it incredibly frail. On top of this, Fletchling has a weakness to the most common entry hazard, Stealth Rock. Both of Fletchling’s immunities, to Ghost and Ground, are often very difficult to take advantage of because the most common user of Ghost-type moves, Misdreavus, can simply burn Fletchling or hit it with Thunderbolt, while the most common user of Ground-type moves, Drilbur, OHKOs Fletchling with Rock Slide after Stealth Rock, meaning Fletchling will have trouble switching in on either. In other words, running multiple checks solely for Fletchling isn’t usually necessary as long as your Pokemon are able to threaten Fletchling to some degree, which isn’t a very difficult feat at all when considering Fletchling’s defenses.

Overall, I think the biggest argument against Fletchling’s brokenness is actually the metagame itself. Many Pokemon that are forced out by Fletchling, such as Cottonee, Croagunk, Foongus, Mienfoo, and Timburr, have managed to flourish and sometimes even become top tier threats, despite the presence of Fletchling. Pokemon that keep Fletchling in check, such as Chinchou and Tirtouga, often have a vast number of other qualities that would make them entirely viable regardless of Fletchling’s presence. Fletchling leaving the tier might cause a rise in Taillow and Doduo usage, but I don’t see anything else stepping out of the shadows as a result of the new niche to be fulfilled; poor Hoothoot is still probably going to find itself left behind (among many others). Fletchling is a top tier threat, and if we’re dealing with a top tier threat, of course it’s going to be relevant and shape the metagame to an extent, but I don't think Fletchling’s mere existence limits certain Pokemon and benefits others any more than the Fighting-types or Dark-types we have.

 

[skies]

Misdreavus is, to put it bluntly, fucking amazing. It's fast, bulky, versatile, and strong. It has very few counters and has the movepool to back this all up. It always has ways to get around certain 'counters' and is incredibly tough to beat if you don't know its moveset. Misdreavus just has so much raw power and Speed, I'd like to point out that it has very high 19 stats in SpD / SpA / Spe, three exceptional stats. Obviously, SpD isn't invested, but you get the jist. What likes switching into +2 Misdreavus besides... err... Munchlax? Spritzee and Porygon also come to mind, but they can be a.) weakened by Misdreavus or b.) weakened by its teammates. It has so much sheer versatility and power that I do think is unhealthy for LC. Going into this suspect test I figured I would vote against Misdreavus' ban, but the more I play with it, the more I play against it, the more I read other users' opinions on it, the more I see that it really is broken and should be removed from the tier.

Now, the sets it actually runs. It can run a variety of sets, I won't name them all, but from its movepool it has the choice of Will-O-Wisp, Thunderbolt, Dazzling Gleam, Nasty Plot, Destiny Bond, Heal Bell, Taunt, Thunder Wave, and some lesser used moves I've experimented with like Icy Wind, Perish Song, Memento. Notice how long that list went on? It can't fit them all, sure, but it doesn't matter. Its movepool just pushes it for me, and a lot of things do have wide movepools, but the difference is that Misdreavus actually can utilize it. The addition of Dazzling Gleam also pushes it for me because now it can beat Fighting-types a lot easier than through normal means and that's just wowsers for me. The set I laddered with was SubNP and it set up and swept countless times, it was just so good. When teambuilding your normal thoughts aren't: hmm should I run Misdreavus? No, it's: hmm what moveset should I run on Misdreavus? Or maybe even: hmm what dedicated counters to Misdreavus should I run? This teambuilding limitation is just bad and it irritates me, and I'm sure other players.

Finally, I'll talk about its flaws. Well, the first is obviously Knock Off, which completely hinders it and removes its item on top of that. Many Fighting-types carry it and have it, while Dazzling Gleam somewhat mitigates this, it is still an issue. It can't really break through bulkier Pokemon like Spritzee or Porygon extremely well, which is a hindrance. And other than that, I'm kind of having issues thinking of something else. It has little to no opportunity cost, you have to stop and ask yourself: Why am I not using Misdreavus? There's virtually no reason you shouldn't be running it, I've yet to find a reason, at least. For the same reason Spritzee was banned: bulky, centralizing, and just too strong for the tier. So, I'd have to Ban Misdreavus from Little Cup.

Fletchling isn't super broken, that's my blunt input. Fletchling is very strong, yes, and it has some methods to deal with its counters like Natural Gift or Overheat, but it simply cannot run everything. It's way easier to check than given credit for and it honestly should not be banned in my opinion. I used Fletchling myself when laddering and I had loads of fun with it, it was helpful for checking / revenge-killing some Pokemon like setup Scraggy or even some weakened Pokemon like weakened Magnemite. I've tested Natural Gift, Swords Dance, and Overheat variants all while laddering and have come to the conclusion that Swords Dance is the best. It isn't extremely difficult to set up and after it has it is really really strong. Acrobatics with priority, and STAB, and 110 power, at +2? Sign me right up!

However, Fletchling has an issue that many people seem to forget. It can't hold an item. I mean, sure it can, but it means it has a very weak STAB move and that's no good. No Eviolite is actually a real bummer, as Fletchling becomes extremely not bulky at all. Berry Juice could be used, I guess, but it's just not consistent. The same with Natural Gift, really. Natural Gift is cool and all but if the opponent does not have Magnemite then you'll have a 55 Acrobatics and you're forced to use it on something random. Plus, its Speed isn't even amazing on normal sets because you'll likely be spamming Acrobatics. But, Swords Dance is not priority, meaning it will have to set up without priority can be easily taken advantage of.

Finally, Fletchling's movepool is quite small. It's not as versatile as Misdreavus (using this as comparison because other Pokemon, ya know) and doesn't have quite a good movepool. It has mainly Acrobatics and resists like Archen or Chinchou just kind of shrug it off and can hurt it in return, and it doesn't always have the moves to beat these Pokemon. Another negative trait is that it is not over centralizing. When I teambuild I just kind of have a Fletchling check without even really trying because I do use Chinchou a lot, as many players do, and it naturally checks Fletchling. In contrast to Misdreavus, there don't need to be dedicated counters to Fletchling. It just kind of... happens. For the reasons stated, I'm thinking that it is best to Not Ban Fletchling from Little Cup.​

 

[Aaron's Aron]

I was going to do a big long post on Fletchling, but I guess I can just go off yours since you beat me to it haha.

1. Fletchling’s methods of getting around its checks are either extremely weak or incredibly easy to play around.

I agree with this statement greatly. Fletchling has Overheat, but it has to use it as the opponent switches in or else it is outsped and killed. While it has Gale Wings, it is disappointingly slow so its other moves leave a bit to be desired. It has Natural Gift, but again, it only gets one chance to use it before the opponent becomes a check again. Also, there are a lot of Pokemon that just don't mind getting hit by any of Fletchling's moves. I know my Porygon doesn't mind any of them, and I can just Recover and Tri Attack/Ice Beam to kill when I am at good enough health.

2. Regardless of what coverage options Fletchling chooses to run, the sheer number of completely viable Pokemon that are still able to beat individual Fletchling sets is far more than that of any other LC suspect to date.

Indeed. While Acrobatics is strong, it isn't the best typing in the world and Fletchling's Attack stat isn't the highest. Even with coverage moves, I often find my checks to Fletchling do not have issues, because it can only check one type of Pokemon. If have two checks, and which ever is checked, the other is completely fine. If Fletchling could even have Brave Bird so that it could use an Eviolite or something it could get more hits out, but with what it has to much is checking it.

Fletchling is also fairly difficult to get into play. Even outside of actual checks, we need to also consider that Fletchling possesses 45/43/38 defenses; this is especially notable because Fletchling can’t viably run Eviolite if it wants to utilize Acrobatics, rendering it incredibly frail. On top of this, Fletchling has a weakness to the most common entry hazard, Stealth Rock.

Again, if it could have Brave Bird and an Eviolite, Fletchling could actually take some hits and sweep quite well. However, it can't do this, and fails to take hits from almost all of the top Pokemon. Fighting-types Drain Punch's do about 75% damage, Missy does a good chunk of damage, Magnemite and Chinchou OHKO, etc.

Overall, I think the biggest argument against Fletchling’s brokenness is actually the metagame itself. Many Pokemon that are forced out by Fletchling, such as Cottonee, Croagunk, Foongus, Mienfoo, and Timburr, have managed to flourish and sometimes even become top tier threats, despite the presence of Fletchling.

Took the words right out of my mouth. So this. ^^^

 

[gangsterish]

Honestly Im not one to hop on the "banwagon" so Im going to come in here with what is probably the most unpopular opinion on this. Ill talk about missy then fletch then Ill shut up. Ill list some of the major pros and cons of said mons and then let anyone reply with their disagreements. Im not here just to suck up or try and get council or some bullshit, Im just here to help contribute my opinion on the arguments for a banning and against.

Defense: Missy will just be replaced
When it comes to missy she doesn't leave a whole lot to defend her by, except that she is a common enemy. TO me there are common enemy mons in every tier, OU has aegilash and LC has Missy and Fletch. Banning missy will lead to other pokemon rising (not a reason for not banning) to take its place. Yeah sure it'll open up new spots for other pokemon that weren't previously viable, but mons or sets that are viable because of missy get lost or less useful. Right now do you feel you need a missy counter? Do you think that when making a team? I don't because knockoff is used regardless of missy and missy gets heavily damaged by knockoff. So in missy's defense It isn't so different from a lot of other borderline uber tier mons that are just going to get replaced once banned.

Banning:Great Defense, Great move pool, Great spec atk.,Great speed, and Great diversity because of these
Keeping in mind that missy will be banned this banning portion will be short. Missy hits 19 speed, 19 special attack, 16 regular defense, and 19 special defense with a respectable 22 Hp. With access to nasty plot, willomiss, shadow ball, thunderbolt, dazzling gleam, dark pulse, and destiny bond along with other powerful moves Missy is godly. It hits hard, defends well, and goes first for the most part. Missy is a pain in the ass. I personally don't normally have a problem with missy, because I carry one of my own; but yeah it is heavenly. So hoping on this banwagon is reasonable.

Verdict: Take these both with a grain of salt and come to your own conclusion. And if you disagree with my points, well thats just like your opinion man.

PS; Ill do one for fletch in a little bit, and also I don't care if my spelling is shit.

 

[TheFenderStory]

This ones for you Blara:

The Suspect Council recognizes MC Fender
who's come to this trial as Fletchling's defender

Now he's pretty good with Acro and Gale Wings
But when it comes to all his checks we have plenty of things

Tirt, Chou and Archen to name a few
when your Fletch see's them coming it'll run right back to you

Sure its gotta some tricks for some lesser checks
but natural gift is only knocking Mag to the deck

In this Meta that we call LC
There are plenty of pokes that have done well with fletch free

Foo, Foon and Cottonee have done okay
Fletch has certainly not gotten in the way

When it comes to this test i think we can agree
That my boy Fetch has a home in LC

(Ban Missy)

 

[tcr]

OK well I'd just like to say that at least I (and a few others) would probably like people to get to the point, instead of writing long ass essays about each Pokemon.

Misdreavus:

Is it broken?

- Technically it isn't, as it DOES have dedicated counters, however each counter can either be beaten by a specific set (examples include winning mindgames with SubNP against Munchlax and Porygon, straight setting up with Spritzee, or using Willo to get past Chespin, among others) or are beaten by simply losing their item, as in the case of Spritzee. Misdreavus is a great late game cleaner, and is quite like Ekiller Arceus in that regard, as nothing can really wall it other than a few choice Pokemon (that it can beat anyway).

Is Misdreavus making LC not fun?

- No, I would say that it isn't. Multiple fun Pokemon and strategies have been discovered to get around Misdreavus, such as Chespin. Misdreavus requires some playing around as well, and makes you think about your decisions in advance, as you don't want a free opportunity for Misdreavus to set up.

Fletchling:

Is it broken?

- No, it is not broken. There are numerous checks and counters for it, and none of them incredibly niche, allowing for a variety of checks that can fit on any team. Its Acrobatics is incredibly weak, often only 3hkoing neutral Pokemon, and not even OHKOing some Super Effective hits on Pokemon such as Scraggy or Timburr.

Is Fletchling making LC not fun?

- I would say yes, it is. Numerous people do not like Fletchling in the tier (obviously) as it promotes cookie cutter teams and restricts creativity. Fletchling has made such a prescence in the tier, more so than Misdreavus has, and bends the metagame literally around it. No team is EVER good without taking Fletchling into account. It forces players to run at least 2 checks in a team, in order to win against a decent player. This limits the metagame, often to the point that you could predict an opponent's team, if team preview wasn't a thing. In contrast, Fletchling is such a great Pokemon to have on a team, as it is basically a late game cleaner, a decent Knock Off switch in, and a revenge killer, all rolled into one. There are whole playstyles revolved around Fletchling. Seeing that same Pokemon over and over is absolutely zero fun, no matter if you beat it 100% of the time.

Are either making players not want to play LC?

- I honestly don't know. I do not speak for others, but if Amaura was not a thing and Chespin was not a thing then I would not want to play LC, as I would simply hate seeing FletchDig offense teams over and over, or feeling the need to always run Knock Off on every single mon, just so Misdreavus cannot switch in safely or set up. Both severely warp the metagame to an unhealthy degree, and they both create a metagame where the more skilled player does not always win, which is something that should NOT happen. In the current metagame, games are made by one mistake, be it saccing Porygon and ending in a Misdreavus sweep, or switching Chinchou into Fletchling's Acrobatics one too many times. There is no prediction, and most battles end up going the same way, especially when using a cookie cutter team. This type of metagame should be avoided, and thus, both of these Pokemon banned.

 

[The Avalanches]

I'm going to go out on a somewhat controversial limb here and say that Fletchling is not broken. Many people argue that Fletchling's special coverage makes it able to get around its counters. However, it is unable to feasibly get around all of its counters at one time - at least without severely hindering itself in another way. Although I consider Fletchling to be an extremely imposing threat to the Little Cup metagame, I believe putting one or two counters is normally sufficient to take it on - even with Diglett or Drilbur.

Now, while a threat might seem broken if packing a check is totally necessary, many of Fletchling's checks and counters lie in the S and A ranking of the viability rankings, such as Pawniard, Magnemite, Tirtouga, Archen, and Chinchou, Pokemon with a solid niche outside of checking Fletchling. Although Fletchling can surprise these Pokemon if it runs the correct coverage, it isn't able to run it all at once, therefore, switching your Magnemite in on an Overheat means it's less likely to be running Hidden Power Grass for your Tirtouga. However, scouting Fletchling is often easier said than done, especially if it ends up setting up on you. This versatility is admittedly problematic, as it means a bad switch can mean losing a huge chunk of your team, or even the match, a problem the fluffy little pink demon gave us a while back. However, rather than being forced to use Tentacool and Grimer, we have things like Tirtouga and Chinchou, who can be placed on a team much more easily than obscure poison types.

Another problem people are having with Fletchling is its ease of use with Diglett. Diglett handles most of Fletchling's above checks quite easily, trapping them and killing them off in order for Fletchling to sweep unimpeded. This presents an obvious problem, as Diglett is fast and strong enough to trap and kill things like Chinchou or Magnemite if Fletchling U-turns out on them.

I will assess Fletchling further later on, and get into my opinions on Missy. For now, though, I think Fletchling is a very borderline case, and I'm still unsure that the current meta would be healthier without it. It isn't broken, but it may be too centralizing.

 

[mad0ka]

1. Is Fletchling broken?

In my opinion slightly yes. Fletchling has an underrated movepool wherein it can bypass most of its checks. The opposing team has an Archen? LOL steel wing says hello. Pawniard/Magnemite? Overheat scoffs at them. Tirtouga/Omanyte? HP Grass also laughs at them. However, these moves do not KO these threats under most circumstances. Steelwing only has a miniscule percent chance to kill after SR, however, Archen is thus deterred from switching in for the rest of the match after steel wing is revealed, so it makes it an incredibly shaky check, allowing Fletchling to spam its acrobatics much more easily. Overheat doesn't OHKO pawniard, however, a combination of both overheat and acrobatics after stealth rock does. Besides, what moves does Pawniard even have that threatens an OHKO to Fletch? Nothing. Fletchling wins 1v1. Magnemite, however, Fletchling has to catch on the switch, which can sometimes be difficult, but with just 36 EVs of investment and a neutral nature, Overheat will kill Magnemite after SR. With the same investment, HP Grass nails the kill versus non-bulky Tirtouga and deals around 60% to standard Omanyte. As for bulky tirtouga, HP Grass deals around 40% damage, and then Fletch can just u-turn out. Basically, this means that, factoring in stealth rock, Tirtouga can only switch in once. These are the easiest non-standard sets to run. Natural Gift sets may also be run, but, as pointed out by Corporal Levi, can often be a hindrance, despite Fletchling being able to easily dumb whatever berry it's running early in the match. Overall, the best check to Fletchling is thus eviolite resttalk chinchou, but chinchou is weak to the infamous FletchDig core. However, what puts Fletchling over the edge is Swords Dance. Sure, a 110 BP priority STAB move seems pretty broken, but then one realizes that Fletchling has a lower attack stat than Foongus. Swords Dance makes Fletchling an amazing and unmatched physical sweeper, dealing around 70-80% to Porygon and 90% to eviolite Misdreavus, some of the bulkiest mons in the tier. One may say that being unable to kill these is its shortcoming, but I disagree completely. Being able to deal this much damage with a neutral move and not having to worry about speed is insane. Basically, anything with only slight prior damage is killed by +2 Fletchling, barring the above checks, which, as mentioned before, Fletchling deal with on its own early game.

In response to Corporal Levi's point about being unable to run all of these moves on one set, of course it can't. It has 4 moveslot syndrome. However, in response, this makes the game incredibly match up dependent, and you can't be expected to run checks to all types of Fletchling. This leads to question #2.

2. Is Fletchling making Little Cup not fun?

Definitely. How can one enjoy a meta when burd shit is being shoved down your throat? I often hear people say "lol dude u r dum if u think fletch is broken all u ned is one check like archen or chinchou," whereas this is completely untrue. You don't even need what some label as "gimmick" sets, as threats like Archen or Pawniard are worn down incredibly easily and Magnemite and Chinchou are taken care of by Diglett. Dealing with something this annoying makes the meta really boring and stale, and I've debated just stopping LC altogether because of this stupid bird and the cookie cutter teams centered around it.

3. Is a combination of 1 or 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

I touched on this at the end of question #2 for myself, but let me bring up someone in particular. Whenever the LC chat was particularly cancerous (which it often times is), I enjoy watching other people ladder. Someone I watched for a little bit was our former tier leader, user Vader. He, evidently, hasn't been keeping up with the meta too much, so gettings REQs in this meta was new for him. Despite having several Fletchling checks on his team, whenever he would see this little piece of shit bird on the opposing team, he would forfeit, understandably so. If someone so previously dedicated cannot stand this meta because of this ugly chirping abomination, something is clearly wrong.

=================

As for Misdreavus, I pretty much agree with what Corporal Levi has said. Misdreavus is already likely getting banned, so I don't too much feel the need to comment on her, whereas Fletchling is on the fence for a lot of people.

 

[Slashari]

Fletchling

I do not think Fletchling is broken. While it does have a 110 BP priority move, Fletchling has a plethora of checks and counters. Yes, it has ways to get around said checks and counters, but it can only run one set at a time, and each individual set only has the capacity to overwhelm a specific check/counter, not all of them. Even so, so of these methods are quite unreliable: Steel Wing has terrible coverage outside of hitting Amaura and the likes, and that moveslot is often better filled with another move. Natural Gift often requires prediction and can only be used once, making it quite unreliable and easy to play around. Overheat and HP Grass aren't very powerful coming off of Fletch's mediocre special attack stat, and often, most Mons this move is meant to be hitting can survive from full health. Acrobatics is really the main move most people tend to spam, and it's easily kept in check by Rock and Electric types.

In addition to all of this, Fletchling is extremely frail, and gets worn down very easily. It's hard to find switch in opportunities, which leads to the user having to predict or to sac a Mon to get Fletchling in for free. It's crippled by status, weak to common attacking types, and still takes big chunks of damage from neutral hits. Overcentralization is not a very good argument, since there are so few viable Mons in the first place, and most Fletchling checks and counters were viable before Fletch started to rise in usage. Fletchling is certainly strong, and yes, while it does affect the way people build teams, so does any other high-level threat. A good team should be prepared for any strong Mons, and I do not think there is a difference in Fletchling's case.

Overall, I do not think Fletchling is worthy of a ban. I think a true testament to Fletchling not being broken is the continued presence of things that Fletch absolutely destroys, like Mienfoo and others. Although they are weak to Fletch, they still see high usage despite this fact. For me, the metagame is not unenjoyable simply because of its presence, but I cannot comment for others. Looking back at past suspects, Fletchling is simply not on the level of the other Pokemon and not as overwhelmingly good as they all were. It is certainly a metagame defining force, as are all top tier threats.



Will add thoughts about Missy later

 

[gangsterish]

1. Is Fletchling broken?

In my opinion slightly yes. Fletchling has an underrated movepool wherein it can bypass most of its checks. The opposing team has an Archen? LOL steel wing says hello. Pawniard/Magnemite? Overheat scoffs at them. Tirtouga/Omanyte? HP Grass also laughs at them. However, these moves do not KO these threats under most circumstances. Steelwing only has a miniscule percent chance to kill after SR, however, Archen is thus deterred from switching in for the rest of the match after steel wing is revealed, so it makes it an incredibly shaky check, allowing Fletchling to spam its acrobatics much more easily. Overheat doesn't OHKO pawniard, however, a combination of both overheat and acrobatics after stealth rock does.

Does it bypass most of its checks? hmmm watching the top players (including you) play would disagree. Fletch rarely uses all of those moves and its ridiculous to say it can stop all those because you can't always. Scarfed pawniard iron head seems to do a lot, magnetite will always ohko fletch with a lightning move, tirtouga and co can shellsmash then outspend with a rock move (still not getting acro screwed.) An archen switch requires a predict steelwing. And I think part of this whole "it has a move for each counter" is ridiculous. Every good offensive mon when switched into the right mon should be able to OHKO (pawn on missy, chinchou on fletch) and it is insane to act like that is fletch specific. If you put fletch on mienfoo yo might want to predict and steeling if they have arch, but how is that different at all from other aspects of the meta? If arc hen vs fletch is real arch wins simple as that. maybe a sac is required, the same as it is with many type advantaged offensive mons. Also people forget that defensive mons neutral to fletchs attacks live 100% fine. Lickitung, polygon, atm missy? the can bewitched into fletch without any fear and then can counter back. many other lesser used d-mons can be brought up. Final argument is that fletch cannot be switched in. unlike missy fletch cannot take really any hits. a lot of times a mon needs to be sac'd or u-turned to get fletch in. However despite all this it is a bitch and detracts the fun of LC some, but running the "fletch counters its counters" argument is bs because its not really different from other offensive mons in that regard where it comes down to predictions a lot of the time in countering those counters. Imo fletch aint nothing special in its move pool and amount of counters. Despite all this, utmost respect lucy and I see what you mean.

 

[Fiend]

I think dcae has described Missy best:

Missy needs to be S rank, it's ridiculously versatile, powerful, and can sweep teams just as well as Gligar, a soon to be banned Pokemon. Knock Off buff definitely hurt it a bit, but the boost to its Ghost STAB made it even more deadly, because it opens up new options in the second attacking slot over HP Fighting. Typical NP set has two slots to play around with, and each one fucks its answers in one way or another. Misdreavus also benefited from Berry Juice, allowing Sub to become even more effective, and allows setting up vs more defensive mons not carrying status if you don't carry Sub. Also, the increased Berry Juice usage makes shit overall less bulky, allowing Missy to kill stuff at +2 it couldn't before. Obviously you're not gonna be setting up on a Knock Off, but Missy forces switches easily and does not have a hard time setting up Nasty Plot.

Even putting aside its Nasty Plot sets, Missy can run some killer glue or supporter sets thanks to that huge support movepool including Will-o-Wisp, something HUGE this gen, crippling Tirt, Meditite, Fighting types in general, Krow. Niche moves include Pain Split/Icy Wind/Heal Bell.

The thing about NP Missy is how well it tears the typical Regen core apart. Nothing they carry normally resists Shadow Ball, and all the Pokemon bar Mienfoo are set up bait. Even Porygon, a common sight on these teams, is helpless vs a HP Fighting Misdreavus. The way Missy can pick and choose its battles is similar to Belly Drum Swirlix's last slot manipulation.

Is Misdreavus broken?
No, not by definition at least. It has numerous dedicated checks, however each of these checks can be worked around through some method due to Misdreavus's incredible versatility. This will often pigeon hole players into using multiple checks simply to beat this berduness ghost. Its base stats are fantastic and the brilliant move pool Misdreavus posses further augments the lethality of Misdreavus. Not to mention nice natural bulk lets Missy shrug off a large the metagame's attacks allowing it to set up and sweep. Simply put, Misdreavus isn't quite broken, but overgeneralizing-still grounds to quite.

Is Misdreavus making LC not fun?
For myself, not at all. But that is due to how I play. I can't honestly give good feedback here since I find using things that shouldn't/don't work fun. Missy does not affect my "for fun" team building. Though I imagine it does since we are infact suspecting it.


Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
Possibly. I have found that a decent portion (I wish I had numbers) of people trying out LC are coming from OU, "taking a break from the staleness" as a few have put it. However, the overcentralization which Misdreavus forces makes LC stale, most likely putting players off of LC as well. Misdreavus does have grounds to be banned, but those grounds are partially do to the tendance of LC.

EDIT: Two things: First, Levi, nice sniping me with the dcea post. Second will do my thoughts on Fletchling later. Still on the fence with the bird.

 

[inscribe]

MISDREAVUS - In my opinion, Misdreavus is an overly centralizing Pokemon, but it has its counters such as Lickitung, Porygon, Houndoor, Chespin, and some others. The fact that you have to build your team knowing that you need a Misdreavus check like Pawniard already shows how amazingly good this Pokemon is. It can run several sets like Scarf Trick or Willo Nasty Plot and run coverage moves to overpower its checks like running Sub Nasty Plot for Porygon. Misdreavus can fit on any team and fill any role you might need it to do. It is a living example of the S-Rank. It can perform several roles effectively without fail, and there's no doubt about it. I think Misdreavus is a Pokemon that prevents this meta from growing more diverse and prevents people from running more fun and interesting Pokemon, but that's just my two cents.

(i cba write about fletchling just ban it imo)

 

[blarajan]

Ok here's an idea: let's scrap the one-liner bullshit posts intended to insult the people contributing in order to inflate our like counts? I've already deleted like five posts. It's unproductive, unhelpful, rude, and just basically ensures that the individuals contributing posts like that are not going to make council.

Secondly, I have requested for a temporary challenge-only LC ladder without Misdreavus and Fletchling to be implemented on Pokemon Showdown! Please challenge your friends to it while engaging in discussion in this thread, in the LC Room on PS!, and on IRC. I do not exactly know what I want from this, but maybe playing games without the suspects on your own time, building teams, and theorymonning metagame changes might help you figure out if you think Misdreavus and Fletchling are broken. It will be called "LC Suspect 4" or something similar. Please post replays if you feel they help your points.

 

[Superpowerdude]

I am commenting on Misdreavus now when I have enough time I will move on to Fletchling.

With Misdreavus firstly you have a Pokemon with amazing stats, reaching 19 speed and 18 Spa with max investment is insane and Misdreavus certainly has the movepool to support these stats, shadow ball, dazzling gleam, thunderbolt, and of course hidden power give you great tools to exploit such a high special attack and critical speed tier for an offensive mon. Misdreavus also has the bulk to withstand at least one supereffective move from a lot of Pokemon. A common argument you hear about missy not being broken is the fighting types it's supposed to beat can just use knock off but what many forget is that knock off comes at a cost, getting the fighting-type burned, hit with Dazzling Gleam or being set up on with Nasty Plot often put Misdreavus in the situation where it doesn't care at all that it's been hit. Fighting type is either dead, crippled with burn or became set up bait to missy which isn't a bad trade off for being Knocked off. Expanding on this, Misdreavus is able to live practically any unboosted hit once and can ko the opponent with a coverage move, cripple it with options such as trick, will-o , memento, taunt or set up a Nasty Plot and keep in mind with 19 speed often times for a Pokemon to hit missy once, it will be hit twice. You could argue that the above point is invalid because I didn't account for missy switching into stuff but that's the thing, Misdreavus with good prediction can make it to the field with little consqeunces, it's immune to fighting, normal and Ground and resists the common U-turn. Also with 60/60/85 defenses Misdreavus just laughs at weak attackers.

However the thing that really pushes missy over the line is it's versatility. Teams just aren't covered for missy unless they run multiple checks. Timburr does a good job in checking some variants of missy but is boned by dazzling gleam likewise, pawnaird is a good check, scarf pawnaird in particular but it won't like switching into a hp fight or will-o so while Timburr and Pawnaird are good checks to missy they still potentially make you missy weak unless you run both of them on the same team for example, which of course restricts team building of you are forced to run multiple potential checks.


Porygon is also a Pokemon many people enjoy to switch into Misdreavus but Misdreavus can be potentially dangerous to it, trick scarf sets can cripple Porygon and a well played sub nasty plot hp fight missy can actually win against it!

Sometimes beating Misdreavus also comes down to speed ties which is purely luck based as you all know. Against opposing Misdreavus an stuff like Abra it comes down to who can get the quicker 2nd shadow ball hit.

Although ghost-types will still struggle because of knock off with missy gone it opens up more creative options that are still viable gastly will become the premier offensive ghost type, learning similar coverage moves to Misdreavus with the addition of stab Sludge Bomb and a higher SpA stat, pumpkaboo and frillish also gain a niche as spin blockers that can super effectively hit drilbur with their stabs. Bunnelby also becomes more viable which is cool, Misdreavus practically made it useless if your opponent had one since it's immune to return, brick break, earthquake and resists U-turn. So in summary Misdreavus leaving will not only put less pressure on having to run multiple missy checks to teams, but it will increase creativity with more mons being viable.


And finally, although it doesn't make missy broken solely, it does contribute to everything Else I have said; Misdreavus encourages the use of digglet+memento user + zigzagoon because of its amazing potential as a memento user. Not only is this core arguable the most broken core in lc, it limits creativity having to devote 3 moveslots to these types of teams. The people who wanted zigzagoon banned, it's probably in your best interest to want missy banned for this reason. Misdreavus's role in this core isto memento something so zigzagoon can belly drum easily and with great bulk and 19 speed getting a memento off is not that difficult

ALSO PHONE POST Sorry for shit spelling will fix later

 

[OP]

I'm really on the fence about Misdreavus currently, so I'm just going to post my thoughts on Fletchling.

I've honestly never heard of any users being frustrated or not enjoying Little Cup because of Fletchling. If the pokemon isn't "un-fun" or making Little Cup not enjoyable, than the only reason left to ban it would be because it's unhealthy for the meta-game and "broken", and I don't believe Fletchling is broken in the slightest.

The main statements I've heard regarding Fletchling's "brokenness" are its ability to bypass it's own "counters" and sweep teams. As others have said, all of it's methods of bypassing checks are rather inefficient and lackluster. You essentially can only carry one of these methods or carry two and hinder your own ability to sweep by not carrying a key move. Each method also comes with severe drawbacks. Overheat can only be used once before switching out and in order to be effective, Pawniards must be weakened first, Magnemites must not be scarfed, must not be carrying endure (barring catching it on the switch), and must not have sturdy available. Natural Gift sets are heavily match-up dependent and destroy Fletchling's immediate offensive prowess. Furthermore, Fletchling is often used as a revenge killer and holding a berry that could potentially be worthless only hinders its ability to do so. Steel Wing and HP Grass are both rather lackluster and rely on prior damage to be done as well as hitting the intended target on the switch in the case of Archen, Amaura and even Omanyte if it's the common 12 speed variant of Fletchling.

This post isn't as large as those essays above me but TL;DR: Fletch isn't unfun nor broken; no reason to ban it.

 

[Caledrith]

1) Is Misdreavus broken?
I'm gonna go be the classic douche kid that says "Well, what is the definition of 'Broken?' " Merriam Webster says the definition of broken is "separated into parts or pieces by being hit, damaged, etc.", "not working properly," and or "not kept or honored."

So lets separate Missy into parts. First thing we can look at is its typing. Ghost type isn't a terrible typing, but in Little Cup, it brings the glaring advantage of being immune to fighting types, but also the glaring weakness to Knock Off, the most used move in the tier. So lets call Ghost type "not-broken." Now Misdreavus's base stats. 60/60/60/85/85/85 with a total of 435 is INSANE for Little Cup, and is even usable in a tier like RU. It hits the magical godlike tier of 19 Speed, which is where most of its power comes from. It also has huge bulk with 60/60/85. Very few pokemon in LC have that bulk, but those mons also have other glaring weaknesses which cause them to be dedicated walls. Misdreavus also has a glorious 18 special attack stat when running Timid, which allows it to do huge damage to the majority of the metagame, bar Stunky (RIP NAYKART). Levitate isn't a broken ability, but heck, its a good one. Gives one more immunity (but lets face it, Drilbur is really one of the few mons using EQ, so it doesn't even matter). Now the moveset.

As was stated before, it has plenty of viable movesets. SubNP is probably the most dangerous imo, as hard mindgames can be played. But Will-o-wisp/Heal Bell/Destiny Bond/Memento/Trick also fill out its non-coverage moveset which allows for a ridiculous amount of different ways for Misdreavus to be played. Misdreavus is a coverage GOD. Shadow Ball/Hidden Power Fighting/Dazzling Gleam/Psychic/Thunderbolt allow for almost perfect (if not perfect) unresisted coverage in LC. It has dedicated checks that can all be taken care of by a different set.

Eviolite allows Misdreavus to take plenty of hits that aren't called Knock Off. Life Orb and Specs allow for ridiculous power, almost on the level of SubLO Abra, which I'm always an advocate for. Scarf allows Missy to easily get around its most popular "check" Choice Scarf Pawniard.

Now, is Misdreavus working properly in the LC metagame? Hell yeah, its tearing through whole teams as we speak. Its doing its job on almost every team its included on, which is also almost every team. The fact its working as well as it is makes it "not work properly." On that note, its also "honored" to the point where we ain't gonna "keep it."

2) Is Misdreavus making Little Cup not fun?
Ask yourself, are you going to quit LC because of just HOW GOOD Misdreavus is? I'm not gonna quit LC because of how good Missy is. Its good, its hella strong, but I'm not going to quit because its that good. Not going to lie, guessing the wrong Missy set and getting fucked over isn't fun, but I feel the same way about Mienfoo.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
Actually, I think it is. I'm interested in a Misdreavus ban, but I also think that if the meta becomes worse because of it, I'd want it back. Ultimately, Pokemon is a game played for fun, so I want to see what a Misdreavus-less ladder looks like just to see if its more fun and easier to get into.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Yeah I ain't writing a fancy essay, sorry people. :/ But I will give my thoughts on the two suspects:

Missy: Misdreavus is incredibly overcentralizing, and it's not hard to see why. A great typing which, in combination with its ability Levitiate gives it a whopping three immunities, one of them being to the ever popular Fighting-type Pokemon. Secondly, its stats are nothing short of amazing: 60 / 60 / 85 Defenses are astounding, while 85 Special Attack hits hard, especially when Misdreavus has acces to Nasty Plot and its STAB is one of the best attacking types in the game. These two trait make Misdreavus not only a powerful set up sweeper, but it also means that Misdreavus has no problem setting up, even in the presence of powerful attacks. Thirdly, Misdreavus's movepool is astounding. Dazzling Gleam beats shit like Scraggy, HP Fighting beats Pawniard, Thunderbolt beats Fletchling, Substitute helps against shit like Munchlax... It can also use Will-O-Wisp to cripple physical attacker for easier setup or as a last-ditch way to cripple something like non-Scarf Pawniard before it faints. Basically, in short, Misdreavus has the typing, ability, movepool, and raw stats both offensively and defensively to become one of the most threatening Pokemon in all of Little Cup.

However, what I really fucking hate about Misdreavus is how overcentralizing it is. Seriously, on almost 1/2 of all teams? I mean, I can't blame anyone for running it - Heck, I ran this thing myself. It's just really fucking good. It fills a lot of roles, including a spinblocker, Fighting-type check / counter, setup sweeper, status spreader, and just an overall terrifying bulky attacker that makes most competitive players choose it for there team. It's just too good NOT to run, really.

Overall, Misdreavus is good and extremely overcentralizing, and as such should be banned.

Fletch: I didn't even vote for this thing to be brought to the attention of the council lol, so I think you should be able to tell what I'll be voting. Anyways, on to Fletchling. Firstly, this thing is strong as fuck. STAB priority Acrobatics is extremely strong, and when combined with moves such as Swords Dance, this thing has no trouble cleaning late-game or just straight-up sweeping through unprepared teams. Fletchling also can use coverage moves, like other people have stated, to break past its counters. Overheat beats Ferroseed, Return KOs a weakened Chinchou, Hidden Power Grass fucks up Tirtouga, while U-turn is just in general a great move for gaining momentum. However, Fletchling has a lot of flaws which make it actually quite manageable. Firstly, Fletchling is actually really frail, meaning as long as you keep up offensive presence (and preferably Stealth Rock) up the whole game, it really isn't all that hard to deal prevent from setting up. Secondly, Fletchling's counters are not only far from scarce, but they're also all really good mons. Magnemite, Chinchou, Archen, Tirtouga, Ferroseed... Of course, Fletchinder does have coverage moves to help beat these mons, but I feel it's far from unreasonable to fit two or even three of these Pokemon on your team considering how good all of them are. Thirdly, I've already mentioned it, but Fletch is Stealth Rock weak, which means it only really has limited opportunities to set up as long as you keep Stealth Rock up. (It dies especially quick if it's running U-turn :])

All in all, I don't think Fletch is broken. Powerful, yes, but not broken.

I'm pretty sure my opinions are like the same as everyone else but w/e lol.

 

[F Amadon]

I'm no genius like any of these people up here. I'm not gonna pull a Bri and write a tome so large you could turn it in for a college essay. This is my first time earning reqs, and I can easily say that I might even regret posting. But something I can do is answer some questions, maybe explain fairly well.

1) Is Misdreavus / Fletchling broken?

Misdreavus: Heck if I know. I've never had issues with it, but at the same time, Misdreavus has forced me to run the exact same Houndour on 20+ teams. If I hadn't ran my Houndour set, I quite simply would not have been able to ladder; Misdreavus would just shoot me down with its pretty good coverage, ability to double its SpA in one turn, Will-o-Wisp, and even Substitute making switching dangerous. If a gun were to my head forcing me to answer, I'd answer that it is broken, due to its ability to beat down its counters in the hands of a skilled player; assuming standard Nasty Plot Missy (Sub/Nasty Plot/Shadow Ball/Dazzling Gleam), it can use Nasty Plot on a predicted switch, because to counter, it has to be able to switch in on any standard move. This instantly turns up the pressure, as Missy can now 2HKO most of its "counters", although Lickitung and Porygon, vaunted Missy counters, are 3HKOed. Being as fast as a devil, Missy can now 2HKO and outspeed most past counters (or enter Sucker Punch/Substitute and Nasty Plot shenanigans with Houndour) and muscle through the rest of the team. Although there are counters that can beat Missy, though, this doesn't stop Misdreavus from being broken; to quote something I think I just read five times in as many posts, "Heatran countered Genesect, but this didn't stop Genesect from being broken". Precedent does exist, in other tiers, and although the circumstances aren't exactly the same, it can still be used for guidance.

Fletchling: I was gonna reference the Keldeo suspect thread last gen as "a Pokemon that can pick and choose its counters" but that thread went to the dogs from post 2 and had nothing I could see worth referencing, although I did give up fairly fast. But hopefully, I can just wing it. I'm not sorry I just typed that. Let me quote this article, saying:

"Scizor and Landorus-T counter certain standard Mega Aerodactyl sets, but neither Pokémon hard counters it."...Shouldn't I have specified exactly which Scizor and which Landorus-T set I was talking about? That's a very good question, but I actually wasn't being sloppy or lazy in that quote. You hear people say things such as "Rotom-W counters Talonflame" all the time. Despite the statement's lack of detail, it's correct and everyone knows what the person is talking about. Why is it often okay to omit which set we're talking about? Do people not realize that checks and counters can be changed by even the slightest modifications to a Pokémon? Actually, the reason why some sloppiness is okay at times is because of the standard set. Although in practice, the moves and other qualities of a certain Pokémon can change, there's often a move or set that's seen most often, which is the standard set. When people say "Rotom-W counters Talonflame," what they really mean is "standard Rotom-W counters standard Talonflame." Just about every Rotom-W has Hydro Pump and Talonflame doesn't have a move that can do serious damage to Rotom-W. Essentially, every common Rotom-W can counter every common Talonflame. That's why it's okay to just say "Rotom-W counters Talonflame."

Following that idea of "standard A counters standard B", let's look at the standard Fletchling:
On the entire ladder: Acrobatics 98.433% | Swords Dance 69.630% | U-turn 68.252% | Roost 45.087% | Overheat 44.760% | Flame Charge 17.567% | Return 13.217% | Tailwind 12.319% | Hidden Power Grass 8.508% | Protect 6.388% | Other 15.840%
At 1337+: Acrobatics 99.575% | Swords Dance 70.852% | U-turn 65.863% | Overheat 52.785% | Roost 45.279% | Tailwind 24.507% | Hidden Power Grass 11.976% | Flame Charge 7.465% | Return 6.200% | Other 15.499%

Using this information, we can see most players opt for Acrobatics, Swords Dance, U-turn, and one of Roost and Overheat; for countering purposes, let's assume Overheat, because Roost is very rarely useful offensively. Pawniard has a 6.3% chance to be OHKO'd by Overheat with a hindering nature when Stealth Rocks are up, so not a counter. However, standard Chinchou is able to take come in on any standard Fletching move, taking 24% from +2 Acrobatics. Magnemite also fears nothing from standard Fletchling, and there are many other Pokemon, unlike Misdreavus, who can fairly safely come in. I say it isn't broken. Start using SR, take advantage of that STAB yourself.

2) Is Misdreavus / Fletchling making Little Cup not fun?

Ugh, I've a bipolar mom, a depressed brother, and I don't know what fun is some days. Uh, nah? Well, if you use Life Orb Abra, they do. Get back on that Sashbra.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
As said earlier in the thread, most people come to LC because they think OU is stale. Here we have Fletchling, the same wheat Talonflame is milled from. That's likely scaring people off. I don't know about Misdreavus, though; once they know what it does, they probably get excited and use it.

 

[nv]

I am going to start with Fletchling as I am on the fence about Missy (although I did vote for it over Fletchling).

Fletchling: In my honest opinion, Fletchling isn't broken in LC. There are too many checks and counters of its that, although it has ways to get around them through Natural Gift + berries or Overheat, can still check or counter. Look at the moves it relies on for coverage. The first combination, Natural Gift + Berries, is easily scoutable as with Fletchling holding an item you can tell Acrobatics is not hitting hard. The second, Overheat, is an easy move to scout as any Rock-type can take both Acrobatics and Overheat (Archen comes to mind). It does limit teambuilding, but I believe that is because it is a threat not because it is broken. This just means to make sure the team has a way to deal with Fletch, kind of like OU teams have to have something to take care of Aegislash. It doesn't make LC "unfun" as most of its coverage to get around its checks and counters are scoutable, easy to play around, and somewhat unconventional.

tl;dr Keep Fletchling

Misdreavus: Coming Soon...

 

[TUO]

For now I'm here to make one point. All currently banned Pokemon in LC (except Yanma) have at least one of these two traits:

1. The ability to be an offensive threat and still be a viable check/counter to many relevant threats of the meta at the time. This quality was shown in Tangela, Gligar, Murkrow had these qualities. These 3 pokemon had different sets, one abusing their offensive prowess and the other focusing on key resistances and longevity. Keep in mind it had access to both, this is usually where the argument of "There is no reason NOT to put it on a team" which is seen in these 3 pokemon. The most extreme cases of this would be LC Sneasel and GSC Snorlax.
2. Some kind of feature that would allow it to outlast its typical counters, usually in the form of recovery. Regenerator Tangela, Roost Gligar, SubThief Murkrow, All bulky boosting Swirlix sets can kinda go under this, and Meditite's resistance to SR and Drain Punch recovery (Which if you recall was my main argument for its ban). This usually made it that strategies involving those pokemon were the best in the metagame, and that's why those pokemon warranted a ban.


Let's see how Misdreavus and Fletch compare

Misdreavus

Misdreavus is surprisingly easy to revenge kill because of how common scarf Pawniard is, along with its lack of recovery, so it acan get worn down by a lot of things. This meta has also made it slowly get harder to setup nasty plot boosts, due to the fast paced offensive nature of everything. Also, Knock Off buff doesn't neccesarily mean Fighting-types beat Misdreavus, but it makes him think twice about setting up nasty plots with impunity on them, as a Knock Off from Timburr or Mienfoo+Aqua Jet from carvanha for example would check misdreavus (just a quick example, i'm not saying carv is meta and is on every team, but scarfers can do the same thing). The most reliable switchins are Porygon and Lickitung, who have reliable recovery and in Pory's case, give some legit problems to whatever is switching in. Misdreavus definitely has a way around these counters (Porygon particularly with Sub+HP Fight) but there are still mindgames involved, and Misdreavus still has to deal with that revenge killing problem. It doesn't have recovery or longevity while its common counters do, and although these counters are rare, checks and revenge killers are very common in the metagame, and not only specifically tailored towards Missy's existence.

Fletchling

Fletchling has a weakness to SR, really one-dimensional in comparison to all banned Pokemon from LC, and has to use a second teamslot with diglett for it to function well. Its most common counters either have recovery, (Porygon) or often run Berry Juice while still being able to do its job. The metagame hasn't really shifted against fletch drastically, Archen and Chinchou are great pokemon that still deserve to be used. It also really sucks when you're win condition in Fletch is weak to two of the strongest setup sweepesr in the game (SS Omanyte and Tirt) so fletch is really easy to overrate. It takes quite a bit to convince me that something with that high of an opportunity cost (two slots, maybe a secondary memento user) can be considered broken. Viable and a legit strategy, but not broken.

 

[doomsday doink]

K so I'm at Stanford right now for Jazz Workshops, which means I'm pretty busy and can't really go into too much detail regarding my opinion on Missy and Fletch. Sorry if this isn't as "essay-like" as some of the other posts here, but I'll try to make this post better when I get the time.

1) Is Misdreavus broken?
In my opinion, Missy isn't broken, but just a tad too powerful and centralizing for the tier. As mentioned in probably every other post in this thread, it has a variety of sets, all of which have different checks and counters. If you plan on using Vullaby as your main Missy counter, you have to be careful to not get zapped by a Thunderbolt or Dazzling Gleam. If you're running Houndour as your main Missy counter, beware of the Hidden Power Fighting and so on. There's also the fear of a Scarfed Missy which will outspeed your Scarfed Pawniard, a Life Orb Missy which will power through your check or a Sub-BJ Missy which will halt any attempt at using Sucker Punch. It can also run a Sub-Taunt set and (my personal favorite) an Imprison set, which will render an opposing Porygon useless. Despite all these moveset shenanigans, Missy's only form of recovery is either BJ or Pain Split, and any common Scarfed mon can usually revenge kill it (especially Pawniard). Also, as I already stated, it has a variety of sets. It can't run 8 moves at the same time. This means that perhaps your Missy check/counter can't win versus this specific Missy, but another Missy might be running a moveset that your check/counter can easily handle.
2) Is Misdreavus making Little Cup not fun?
Personally, I think Misdreavus is making Little Cup pretty fun in a way, because the tier isn't just a "this counters that, that counters this" kind of situation. Players are constantly finding new Pokemon to use and new strategies to implement in order to get around Misdreavus or prevent it from doing anything (WOOO CHESPIN). Yes, it may be a bit overused but that's just because it's a good Pokemon. I'm not entirely opposed to a Misdreavus ban because it is a cool mon, and it cant get around everything, but I'm also not a strong advocate to keep it because I think a meta with Gastly as the big ghostie would be super fun.
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
I don't think it's deterring anyone from playing Little Cup, but it might be a main reason as to why players have trouble getting into the tier. Honestly, I feel like Misdreavus is a great "starting Pokemon" for a new player's team because it's relatively easy to use and it's a pretty simple mon to build, EV-wise and Move-wise. But then again, getting 6-0ed by a NP Missy because you were severely under-prepared isn't exactly a fun time.

1) Is Fletchling broken?
Man, Fletchling is a fantastic clean-up Pokemon and a great way to put a lot of pressure on the opponent. But broken? Yes, every competent player is going to need to run a Fletchling check/counter in order to survive in the metagame, but most of these checks/counters are good mons that can be used to fulfill other roles. Fletchling is pretty overcentralized, but I don't think it's broken.
2) Is Fletchling making Little Cup not fun?
Fletchling isn't making Little Cup not fun to play, but it is kind of restricting teambuilding options. It forces you to run a check or counter, usually more than one at that, and requires some good decisions and careful predictions to play around. I don't think it makes the tier dull by any means, and a lot of cool movesets and Pokemon have surfaced in order to deal with Fletchling. That's pretty fun imo.
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
I'm going to keep this one kinda short because I am once again super tired. Nope. As with Missy, Fletchling is a rather easy Pokemon to build and play, which can be very helpful for newer players. It does however mean that new players will have to have an answer for it on their team, but the same goes for mons like Missy, Pawniard and Mienfoo.

Also, this thing is gonna be waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy too good once Flying Gem comes out.

 

[OP]

Fletchling: In my honest opinion, Fletchling isn't broken in LC. There are too many checks and counters of its that, although it has ways to get around them through Natural Gift + berries or Overheat, can still check or counter. Look at the moves it relies on for coverage. The first combination, Natural Gift + Berries, is easily scoutable as with Fletchling holding an item you can tell Acrobatics is not hitting hard. The second, Overheat, is an easy move to scout as any Rock-type can take both Acrobatics and Overheat (Archen comes to mind). It does limit teambuilding, but I believe that is because it is a threat not because it is broken. This just means to make sure the team has a way to deal with Fletch, kind of like OU teams have to have something to take care of Aegislash. It doesn't make LC "unfun" as most of its coverage to get around its checks and counters are scoutable, easy to play around, and somewhat unconventional.

tl;dr Keep Fletchling

To me, Fletchling doesn't even limit teambuilding. Obviously it's a threat and you have to take it into consideration when building a team, but that's like every pokemon. I find myself using many Fletchling checks anyway as they are all fantastic pokemon with great uses. Many people complain about having to use multiple Fletchling checks but first of all, Fletchling isn't able to switch in very easily, can be checked by pokemon that are simply too bulky to be 2HKO'd such as Spritzee and Porygon, and many pokemon that Fletch typically "forces" to switch can actually be checks to Fletchling, due to its low attack. A couple examples of this would be Mienfoo, Scraggy, and Foongus. They all are able to stomach the 110 BP Acrobatics and either OHKO back with HJK or put it to sleep, assuring your checks don't get worn down if you need them to check a different pokemon. Overall, I agree with your post but I can't say Fletchling restricts teambuilding honestly.

 

[nv]

To me, Fletchling doesn't even limit teambuilding. Obviously it's a threat and you have to take it into consideration when building a team, but that's like every pokemon. I find myself using many Fletchling checks anyway as they are all fantastic pokemon with great uses. Many people complain about having to use multiple Fletchling checks but first of all, Fletchling isn't able to switch in very easily, can be checked by pokemon that are simply too bulky to be 2HKO'd such as Spritzee and Porygon, and many pokemon that Fletch typically "forces" to switch can actually be checks to Fletchling, due to its low attack. A couple examples of this would be Mienfoo, Scraggy, and Foongus. They all are able to stomach the 110 BP Acrobatics and either OHKO back with HJK or put it to sleep, assuring your checks don't get worn down if you need them to check a different pokemon. Overall, I agree with your post but I can't say Fletchling restricts teambuilding honestly.

Man, you pretty much said what I was trying to get across. Guess I failed at conveying that. But basically you summed up what I was trying to say, lol.