M&M Mix and Mega Suspect #9: Landorus-Therian

Chloe

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"High-level play."

Summary:
The Mix and Mega Council has decided that we will be conducting our next suspect test on Landorus-Therian.

Landorus-Therian has been a potent force in Mix and Mega since the metagame's inception in 2015. Its pre-mega ability of Intimidate, great offensive movepool, and catalogue of support options make it a potent force in many metagames. The ability to give it a solid secondary STAB option, while providing the ability to nuke the majority of the metagame with -ate boosted Explosion, and additions to its already solid attack stat are what make it stand out in Mix and Mega. The fact that it's usually quite difficult to distinguish what its secondary STAB is on matchup makes it an even more threatening Pokemon. Players can choose between two incredible offensive typings Fairy and Flying, which both have very limited resists when paired with Earthquake. There is a very limited pool of Pokemon that can withstand attacks from both formes, especially when considering its access to Swords Dance and the overwhelming attack power of -ate boosted Explosion. Landorus-T is a menace within the Mix and Mega metagame. It's up to you, the community, to decide whether it stays or goes.

We will not be holding a suspect test on Explosion if the result of this suspect test ends in Do Not Ban. The council believes that this is not an appropriate solution to this problem. Please keep this in mind when casting your vote. Do not argue the merits of suspect testing Explosion instead in this thread.

Landorus-Therian will be permitted to bear Mega Stones during the suspect testing process.

Some quick high-level replays showcasing Landorus-T in action:

Altaranite |
| Pixilate | 89/185/110/145/80/91
Salamencite |
| Aerilate | 89/155/140/115/90/111
The suspect test will last fourteen days, concluding on March 17th at 11pm EST.

Note: This suspect is solely for Landorus-Therian's ability to hold mega stones.

Requirements:
There are multiple methods for obtaining reqs for this suspect test.

Firstly, the most reliable option of playing ranked games until you obtain a GXE of 82 in 35 or more games is recommended. You are required to have the prefix "LTS" in your account name. This acronym must precede any other characters in the name. These requirements should not be difficult to obtain in comparison to previous suspect tests, so please ensure you try this prior to relying on the latter method.
LTS Go Pikachu -
leather beLTS -
Secondly, there is an option to earn it via the Other Metagames room's daily tournaments. The winner and runner up of both the Wednesday March 6th Daily Tournament and the Wednesday, March 13th Daily Tournament will gain automatic voting requirements unless they have previously obtained them. I will remind everyone of the times of each of these tournaments in the thread, prior to their occurrence.

Post your suspect requirements proof in this thread, without your vote. You will be eligible to vote as long as you have complied with the listed requirements, have provided a screenshot of said requirements, and have supplied proof that the alt is yours. You may post your opinion on the subject or what you will be voting, as this thread is not limited to posting reqs. However, it is important to mention that solely voting here and not following the instructions given within this paragraph and the following one will ensure your vote doesn't count.

Voting:
Once the suspect period is over, I will tag everyone who has obtained reqs by this point. I will then outline a process of blind voting, which will be clarified once this time arrives. For now, follow the above "Requirements" subheading to ensure that you've posted your reqs correctly. If this is difficult to understand, please message me on my Smogon profile and I will clarify it for you.

A super-majority of 60% ban is required for Landorus-T to be banned from holding Mega Stones.

TL;DR:
- Landorus-T is being suspected from holding Mega Stones.​
- Landorus-T will be able to hold Mega Stones during the testing process.​
- The GXE requirement is 82, the game amount must amount to or exceed 35.​
- Post requirements in this thread. This is not where your vote is posted though. Read the "Voting" subheading for more information.​
- Suspect Test will conclude on March 17th at 11pm EST.​
- A ban vote of 60% is required to remove Landorus-T's ability to hold Mega Stones.​
- Landorus-T's inclusion in OMGS playoffs will be dependant on when this suspect concludes in correlation to when playoffs begin.​
You may start laddering right away. Good luck!

Tagging The Immortal to implement the suspect alert when matches start up. Thank you :>
 
I do not have a clear opinion yet, must hear both sides thoroughly to formulate one.
Only real comment up to now is : Reqs seemed easy (especially with our own lovely low ladder :bloblul:). Btw, how is GXE calculated?
163548

Also Fardin, I see your points, and I also don't particularly like a Pokemon exploding in my face. I'm not good at predicting or playing around that move, and it does cripple some of my beloved (and possibly very standard) defensive cores. A couple notes, however:
-Rock Polish Altarianite Lando does not mean no Explosion!
-Council specified that they are suspecting Lando as a whole, and that Explosion will not be looked into whatever the results. Thusly, even though parts of me might have endorsed this second alternative, that's out of the picture right now.

Why don't we refocus the discussion into the question "Is Landorus-T, as it is (Explosion and all), broken?"? I'm sure that it's still a challenging enough question to answer! I, for one, would not know how to vote, without more discussion :)

Edit: While I extensively read and, to an extent, understood the ban arguments, I'm a coward genuinely concerned about opening a figurative Pandora's box. I'm now sure I will vote No ban.
 
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163552

first of all, i will be voting no ban
the mon itself isnt breaking the meta or over centralizing at all,
even with explosion, there's tons of counterplay, the main issue here is explosion not lando, might as well suspect magearna since it explodes alot better and alot more mu based than lando
im not sure why its a problem now of all times, lando been exploding since xy how it is a problem now, lando's most appealing trait is being able to set sr anytime it wants and thats not enough to ban this mon, its stabs are good but thats it.
just suspect terrakion, mon literally broken
 


It's obvious that the element that makes landorus-t broken is explosion, not anything else about the mon. Landorus-T without explosion is a very splashable pokemon, as it combines a bunch of desirable traits; it's ground-flying typing that makes it one of the better checks to Pdon, its premega intimidate that can offer valuable roll compression by preventing many physical attackers from just cleaning up offense, its solid offensive stats and swords dance allow it to pressure out many of the most reliable stops to setting stealth rocks like Mandibuzz or Blissey. It is, however, not unhealthy; it's passable at a lot and easy to fit on a team, but it can't switch into much and maintain its role, nor can it do more than one task per game reliably.

With explosion, however, that calculus changes. Explosion Landorus-t is most notable on HO teams; it's a flying type, which helps win the mirror, it's a strong offensive sweeper benefitting from webs, which helps it carry its own weight, and it makes it impossible to defog webs, which can be a nightmare. In addition to allowing Landorus-T to pick off essentially any defensive Pokemon it pleases - particularly after a swords dance - Explosion takes Lando-t off og the feild, which stops them from targetting anything with defog. Even those defoggers like Zapdos and Skarmory that don't fold outright to an explosion are helpless to actually clear hazards and prevent these sweepers from running rampant. Even off of webs, however, Landorus-T is a nightmare for defensive teams. It can set stealth-rock on almost anything, and anything that doesn't outright die to explosion (like the aforementioned Zapdos) must be able to both threaten Landorus-T enough to prevent it from freely swords dancing and predict Landorus-T's moves well enough to recover on the explosion, as surviving an attack like that at 20% health is cold comfort if you need that Pokemon healthy to check a teammate like kartana or Entei. This gets worse due to the fact that most of the pokemon capable of tanking Explosion without dying to earthquake are flying types, which makes the Stealth Rocks they don't get a chance to remove even more dangerous to their longevity.

Given that we primarily tier Pokemon, not moves, however, an explosion suspect unfortunately lacks the support it would need; to alleviate the burden on building and playing that Explosion causes, then, the answer has to be to eliminate its primary - and most unhealthy - user, which is Landorus-T.

Ban.
 

Chloe

is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
Moderator
I believe a few of you (mainly Fardin) have missed a major factor in why Explosion is an inferior suspect to Landorus-Therian. I'll explain my reasoning for supporting the latter over the former, but I'd like to clarify a few things.

I could argue that Landorus-Therian is quite troubling and arguably broken regardless of whether it's running Explosion or not due to all the other factors listed in the OP; however, this would be irrelevant. In addition to this, excuse me, but whether Explosion is what tips Landorus-T over the edge is irrelevant. I agree with this latter notion, yet I support a suspect test on Landorus-Therian.

Speaking for myself, Explosion is only inherently overwhelming when used by Landorus-Therian, and maybe Magearna. I do not find Genesect or Metagross to be overbearing with this move. If both were considered overwhelmingly broken the solution would be to ban both Landorus-T and Magearna, not Explosion.

Consider a tier like OU. Blaziken is banned, being considered an issue primarily because of Speed Boost. Is your solution to this problem to ban Speed Boost instead and impair other not so viable Pokemon? Your logic seems to lean on the fallacy that because Explosion is what makes Landorus-T an issue, it's what should be banned. I strongly disagree.

This summarises why I support a suspect test on Landorus-T instead of Explosion itself. This could definitely be extended upon, and I could definitely give more arguments as to why I support this suspect test over others, but I feel like this suffices, especially considering it seems to be a simple misunderstanding on your part.
 
Ladder is a scary place....
163678

S/o RaJ.Shoot for keeping up with my countless ladder rants becz I forgot how to click buttons

Regarding the suspect, I definitely am on that side of the player base that believes that explosion is the main reason for Lando being broken. Since it's quite clear explosion isn't getting suspected(correct me if I'm wrong but that's what I take from this thread's discussion uptill now) will be voting BAN
 
I believe a few of you (mainly Fardin) have missed a major factor in why Explosion is an inferior suspect to Landorus-Therian. I'll explain my reasoning for supporting the latter over the former, but I'd like to clarify a few things.

I could argue that Landorus-Therian is quite troubling and arguably broken regardless of whether it's running Explosion or not due to all the other factors listed in the OP; however, this would be irrelevant. In addition to this, excuse me, but whether Explosion is what tips Landorus-T over the edge is irrelevant. I agree with this latter notion, yet I support a suspect test on Landorus-Therian.

Speaking for myself, Explosion is only inherently overwhelming when used by Landorus-Therian, and maybe Magearna. I do not find Genesect or Metagross to be overbearing with this move. If both were considered overwhelmingly broken the solution would be to ban both Landorus-T and Magearna, not Explosion.

Consider a tier like OU. Blaziken is banned, being considered an issue primarily because of Speed Boost. Is your solution to this problem to ban Speed Boost instead and impair other not so viable Pokemon? Your logic seems to lean on the fallacy that because Explosion is what makes Landorus-T an issue, it's what should be banned. I strongly disagree.

This summarises why I support a suspect test on Landorus-T instead of Explosion itself. This could definitely be extended upon, and I could definitely give more arguments as to why I support this suspect test over others, but I feel like this suffices, especially considering it seems to be a simple misunderstanding on your part.
Very shortly wanna point out that this paradigm changes slightly when you enter the realm of MnM where pokemon can take on very different forms.

When you say that banning Speed Boost in OU just because of blaziken would hurt other pokemon, you can also argue in the same way, that banning Lando-T and especially Magearna would also be banning all the other forms these mons can take, so that would be a rip to Alt Lando, double dance lando, last resort magearna, blue orb mag, venu mag, lati mag, cameruptite mag... All of this diversity would be removed from meta in favor of a move that is only usable and problematic in two very specific instances, the -ate variants of lando and mag.

Built this to try some stuff out and had a lot of fun on the ladder, feel free to try it out.
 

Attachments

landorus therian is not invincible, skarmory slows him down in all his sets, if he throws a sword dance you just take it out with whirlwind, other steels with latiasite also slow him down unless he has gyaradosite (which would leave him fragile before the pixielate ESpeed)

for my zygarde it is much more dangerous, big bulk, two forms of bosting with coil and dragon dance, access to thousand arrow with eliminate flying and levitate counters, ESpeed pixielate and aerilate. It has no safe counters.
 
I like how you're evaluating lando when the only issues with him are altarianite and salamencite which are issues for any pokemon. Evaluate Entei
 
landorus therian is not invincible, skarmory slows him down in all his sets, if he throws a sword dance you just take it out with whirlwind, other steels with latiasite also slow him down unless he has gyaradosite (which would leave him fragile before the pixielate ESpeed)

for my zygarde it is much more dangerous, big bulk, two forms of bosting with coil and dragon dance, access to thousand arrow with eliminate flying and levitate counters, ESpeed pixielate and aerilate. It has no safe counters.
Skarmory rn is in a very bad shape in the meta. It requires heavy team support to function properly. Special attackers, pdon with smack down can all wear it down. Hence u can't rely on skarmory solely to check Lando. As far as latiasite steel is concerned, there arent many viable other than latiasite magearna and stakataka(maybe).
Coming to zygarde, it has many checks in form of defensive arc fairy,ground and stuff like manectite mew.
U should definitely read the OP once again to why lando-t is such a potent threat in the current meta and is being considered to be a bannable mon by the council


I like how you're evaluating lando when the only issues with him are altarianite and salamencite which are issues for any pokemon. Evaluate Entei
The issue is just not altarianite and salamencite. As stated in the OP it's access to SD and a stab explosion makes it quite threatening mon that can easily sweep teams if given the chance to . It's also noteworthy how webs support greatly affects it by making it more tough to deal with.
The replays posted in the OP shows how
important and threatening is, and how its access to explosion guarantees a kill almost everytime
 

Chloe

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I'm getting Deoxys-Speed vs Zap Cannon flashbacks.

Very shortly wanna point out that this paradigm changes slightly when you enter the realm of MnM where pokemon can take on very different forms.

When you say that banning Speed Boost in OU just because of blaziken would hurt other pokemon, you can also argue in the same way, that banning Lando-T and especially Magearna would also be banning all the other forms these mons can take, so that would be a rip to Alt Lando, double dance lando, last resort magearna, blue orb mag, venu mag, lati mag, cameruptite mag... All of this diversity would be removed from meta in favor of a move that is only usable and problematic in two very specific instances, the -ate variants of lando and mag.

Built this to try some stuff out and had a lot of fun on the ladder, feel free to try it out.
I agree that they're not direct parallels; however, you're missing the point. We're suspect testing Landorus-Therian based on its own merits, not solely because of its access to Explosion. If that were the case I'd definitely agree with you here. If a Magearna suspect test were to come to fruition, we'd base it on all its sets, not just Pinsirite Explosion.

I don't see Pinsirite Magearna as a set that pushes it over the edge, nor do I see Magearna as particularly a problematic element in the metagame. I appreciate you voicing your concerns however, even if I did state explicitly not to discuss this topic in the thread.

landorus therian is not invincible, skarmory slows him down in all his sets, if he throws a sword dance you just take it out with whirlwind, other steels with latiasite also slow him down unless he has gyaradosite (which would leave him fragile before the pixielate ESpeed)

for my zygarde it is much more dangerous, big bulk, two forms of bosting with coil and dragon dance, access to thousand arrow with eliminate flying and levitate counters, ESpeed pixielate and aerilate. It has no safe counters.
+2 252 Atk Pixilate Landorus-Therian Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blue Orb Skarmory: 363-427 (108.6 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Pixilate Landorus-Therian Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaurite Skarmory: 329-387 (98.5 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Pixilate Landorus-Therian Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite (trash) Skarmory: 315-371 (94.3 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Regardless, relying on a subpar Pokemon to check Landorus-Therian is really not a suffice argument in discussing whether it's unhealthy or not for the metagame.

I like how you're evaluating lando when the only issues with him are altarianite and salamencite which are issues for any pokemon. Evaluate Entei
Please read the OP to the thread. Entei is nowhere near this potent, is easily walled by common Pokemon such as Primal Groudon and Toxapex, and has a lack of a prominent offensive movepool. Landorus-Therian has no direct counters, is one of the best SR setters in the metagame, has access to Explosion (did you read anything in this thread), has Swords Dance to actually deal sufficient damage against defensive teams unlike Entei. Entei and Landorus-Therian are in no way comparable, as even though they are both -ate users, they accomplish two very different things.

I will probably vote no ban after i get the reqs (probably saturday or sunday), i'll edit this post (btw why you suspect Lando-T when you clearly say that Explosion is the problem AND you thought about suspecting it ? It doesn't make any sense to me but ok)
Did you bother reading the thread? I implore you to read this, this, and this.
 
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thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
I'm getting Deoxys-Speed vs Zap Cannon flashbacks.
Except the problem was clearly pidgeotite and not Deo-S, pidge then deservedly got the boot. And I was adamant about banning pidge at that point in time.
Way back in gen 6 I called ate speed the problem and wanted us to tackle that instead of slowly banning everything that learned ESpeed and a set up move. Now ate has been nerfed slightly and that, plus the emergence of stuff like Celesteela, makes Lando more manageable than before.
It's a nice option for offense, but it isn't as versatile and scary as even Zygarde is to me. And if I have time to SD and then I explode, that means I just wasted a setup move, a great stone, and a supposedly broken mon to get a 1 for 1 trade? Not broken. Lando has a meh speed tier, with keldeo terrak victini kartana etc outspeeding it, yes being immune to webs is cute but we can't assume webs is always up.
Primal Groudon Zygarde and Mag run the meta, Lando-T being in the tier actually helps balance it. It's not so overpowering that it sweeps teams - by conceding that explosion, a move that destroys lando-t - is part of "the problem", you concede that it's not sweeping people.
 
Except the problem was clearly pidgeotite and not Deo-S, pidge then deservedly got the boot. And I was adamant about banning pidge at that point in time.
Way back in gen 6 I called ate speed the problem and wanted us to tackle that instead of slowly banning everything that learned ESpeed and a set up move. Now ate has been nerfed slightly and that, plus the emergence of stuff like Celesteela, makes Lando more manageable than before.
It's a nice option for offense, but it isn't as versatile and scary as even Zygarde is to me. And if I have time to SD and then I explode, that means I just wasted a setup move, a great stone, and a supposedly broken mon to get a 1 for 1 trade? Not broken. Lando has a meh speed tier, with keldeo terrak victini kartana etc outspeeding it, yes being immune to webs is cute but we can't assume webs is always up.
Primal Groudon Zygarde and Mag run the meta, Lando-T being in the tier actually helps balance it. It's not so overpowering that it sweeps teams - by conceding that explosion, a move that destroys lando-t - is part of "the problem", you concede that it's not sweeping people.
Sorry man but there's a lot wrong here. No, Celesteela isn't emerging it's staying dead in the meta as it should. No, Sala isn't a "great stone" one of the reasons Lando is so splashable is because it's one of the few Pokemon in Mix and Mega that utilizes this stone. I don't know what kind of Victini you're using but the only widely used variant is Red Orb and that certainly doesn't outspeed Salamencite Landorus.

Lucarionite and Diancite Terrakion can't kill Lando and Lando's EQ can kill them in turn. Kartana would beat Landorus 1v1 if it wasn't for Explosion but Landorus is often happy to explode and force the trade and that is why it is one of the best offensive checks in the meta precisely because of the ability to 1v1 Terrakion and Kartana and limit their set up window. Whether you think that's a good thing or not is up to you but Terrakion and Kartana are certainly not a good argument for why Lando-T shouldn't be banned.

There's likely more to address but I wanted to address the basic flaws here at the very least.
 
Except the problem was clearly pidgeotite and not Deo-S, pidge then deservedly got the boot. And I was adamant about banning pidge at that point in time.
Way back in gen 6 I called ate speed the problem and wanted us to tackle that instead of slowly banning everything that learned ESpeed and a set up move. Now ate has been nerfed slightly and that, plus the emergence of stuff like Celesteela, makes Lando more manageable than before.
It's a nice option for offense, but it isn't as versatile and scary as even Zygarde is to me. And if I have time to SD and then I explode, that means I just wasted a setup move, a great stone, and a supposedly broken mon to get a 1 for 1 trade? Not broken. Lando has a meh speed tier, with keldeo terrak victini kartana etc outspeeding it, yes being immune to webs is cute but we can't assume webs is always up.
Primal Groudon Zygarde and Mag run the meta, Lando-T being in the tier actually helps balance it. It's not so overpowering that it sweeps teams - by conceding that explosion, a move that destroys lando-t - is part of "the problem", you concede that it's not sweeping people.
ur grossly underestimating what having explosion could do to an already okay mon. as andy said, explosion avoids it being a set up bait by half the mons u mentioned which goes amazingly with inti since it allows it to live 2 hit most of the time from em. it does suck tho vs fast special mons like keldeo but mnm is mainly revolved around the physical side rn which it does fine against. no one is pretending lando is invincible, but having explosion allows it to cross the broken line. also explosion doesnt really waste a set up opportunity... it rather gives u one with momentum and the chance to kill crippled walls which ur team might struggle against
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Sorry man but there's a lot wrong here. No, Celesteela isn't emerging it's staying dead in the meta as it should. No, Sala isn't a "great stone" one of the reasons Lando is so splashable is because it's one of the few Pokemon in Mix and Mega that utilizes this stone. I don't know what kind of Victini you're using but the only widely used variant is Red Orb and that certainly doesn't outspeed Salamencite Landorus.

Lucarionite and Diancite Terrakion can't kill Lando and Lando's EQ can kill them in turn. Kartana would beat Landorus 1v1 if it wasn't for Explosion but Landorus is often happy to explode and force the trade and that is why it is one of the best offensive checks in the meta precisely because of the ability to 1v1 Terrakion and Kartana and limit their set up window. Whether you think that's a good thing or not is up to you but Terrakion and Kartana are certainly not a good argument for why Lando-T shouldn't be banned.

There's likely more to address but I wanted to address the basic flaws here at the very least.
Yeah i know they can't one hit lando, that was just part of my overall argument that it isn't sweeping anyone unless it's sd rock polish explosion earthquake return. And I was using metagrossite victini, but if i'm the only one using that i guess it isn't an argument. And altarianite is a top 3 offensive stone, so if you're using that, then there's definitely a large opportunity cost. Of course lando is good and beats some mons, but it's not just blowing through entire teams - that was the whole gist of my post. (that and proving chloe's one liner wrong)
Anyways, I haven't played in a while, so maybe there are some completely different changes that make lando broken now. I'll ladder up and see.
 
Landorus doesn't have to sweep on its own to be broken. No Pokemon has to end every game to be broken. Deoxys-D is banned in OU because its hazards are too difficult to beat. Diggersby was banned from XYUU because Swords Dance was unwallable and it always cleared the way for a team member to sweep.

I don't play MnM anymore but there are many ways a Pokemon can break a metagame.
 

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