M&M Mix and Mega Suspect #9: Landorus-Therian

I think I voting no ban because, the prob of Landorus-T is **Explosion**. My question is, why ban Landorus-T and not Explosion? I think ban Explosion is a better idea. I think we do the same error with the Pidgeotite; ban Darkrai , Shaymin-Sky and Deoxys-Speed and not the Pidgeotite
Because for the majority of council believes, explosion isn't a cancer and uncompetitive move on most mons that get it so they just wanna eliminate its best user for the sake of nerfing it. If they won't ever consider an explosion ban for some stupid reason, u might as well go along with them now and ban lando to help the meta move forward a little bit
 
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Chazm

yeet
is a Pre-Contributor
Do you guys not even read the OP

We will not be holding a suspect test on Explosion if the result of this suspect test ends in Do Not Ban. The council believes that this is not an appropriate solution to this problem. Please keep this in mind when casting your vote. Do not argue the merits of suspect testing Explosion instead in this thread.
 
Do you guys not even read the OP
prolly they just want to avoid people voting "no ban" in hopes of council moving onto explosion as the next possible suspect, which is fair... but seeing as literally no council member has addressed why explosion shouldn't be considered in the first place (except chloe's halfass explanation),its alarming :oo

ive had some convos regarding explosion ban in the past with council and heard some horrible arguments such as"it kills the user too so its fine", so i just wanna know if they have any solid basis as to why not entertain the idea.

ive brought up explosion suspect like 5 months ago here https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/mix-and-mega.3587740/page-42#post-7955225
where i addressed most of the arguments against why explosion shouldnt be suspected, but got no response except ith's 1 liner "no" with some paste where i clowned him (bias? idk)
 

Chloe

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That's enough. I've stated a countless amount of times that we have no plan to test Explosion regardless of the outcome of this suspect. Fardin, we definitely have entertained the idea of suspect testing Explosion, we agreed that it's an inferior aspect to test, so this is what we're going with. You disagree; we get it.

This discussion ends here. I've told you all a myriad of times to stop, I've given you enough chances. If you're going to continue to discuss Explosion instead of Landorus-T, suffer the consequences, I've had enough.
 

Pigeons

pidge pidge
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35-0 wew. Probably going to vote ban here. The thing about Lando is there's not really any good ways to punish or take advantage of it, be it defensively or offensively. It's difficult to revenge kill and doesn't leave defensive teams room to do much other than spam recovery, so even in cases where it's not outright breaking teams it's still generating or retaining momentum. Lando isn't unbeatable, but its ability to put in work in virtually every matchup while also having extremely limited defensive counterplay makes it an unhealthy threat in the current metagame.
 
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Yes, I'm ready to suffer the consequences so at least read that last will

The decisions of the council regarding the fair discussion about Explosion is the proof that they won't go forward and stick to a decision without taking in account what anyone say. You don't give any real reason or you give broken reasons about why banning Explosion instead of Lando-T who is just the victim of the broken thing, pmuch like darkrai and shaymin-s. I don't know why you are so stubborn and doesn't change your godly decisions when you still can (and not 6 months later). I can say with my experience in Pokémon that this is to me a very bad way to approach a suspect test like many other mnm suspects in the past. I won't bother to try to get reqs because the story will repeat itself for the next suspect test, so... I Hope yall will have fun but it's without me.

If so many people bring the subject of Explosion, maybe you should think about why. Please.
 
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Chazm

yeet
is a Pre-Contributor
Yes, I'm ready to suffer the consequences so at least read that last will

The decisions of the council regarding the fair discussion about Explosion is the proof that they won't go forward and stick to a decision without taking in account what anyone say. You don't give any real reason or you give broken reasons about why banning Explosion instead of Lando-T who is just the victim of the broken thing, pmuch like darkrai and shaymin-s. I don't know why you are so stubborn and doesn't change your godly decisions when you still can (and not 6 months later). I can say with my experience in Pokémon that this is to me a very bad way to approach a suspect test like many other mnm suspects in the past. I won't bother to try to get reqs because the story will repeat itself for the next suspect test, so... I Hope yall will have fun but it's without me.

If so many people bring the subject of Explosion, maybe you should think about why. Please.
Seeing as you won't take no for an answer, I have a few reasons for you as to why Explosion isn't broken by looking at its other abusers and determining if they become broken or not (and, seeing as there are only two abusers, one of which is only broken by some standards, I'm surprised you didn't catch onto it earlier.)

Let me flash back to the other suspects. I personally agreed that Shaymin-Sky already had counterplay in other Magic Bouncers before having the wire cut - but for the most part I agree, Pidgeotite was the enhancer, and was eventually revealed to be the broken stone after adaptations such as Xurkitree Webs came about. Deoxys-Speed, however - was broken on the 50/50 case of its lead set and Pidgeotite, neither of which were broken alone, but together they made an unhealthy combination that made it difficult to play around two guaranteed hazards or guaranteed para.

So - a lot of people seem to be complaining about Magearna seeing as Explosion can trade through some targets so that anothrr breaker can sweep through it. This is not Explosion's fault - it is easily possible for Magearna to suicide itself into the target without Explosion and deal a great amount of damage - the same that would happen to the likes of other Magearna and Zapdos. If pressure from Explosion is your issue; ban all of these other breakers like Kartana, Terrakion and Tapu Lele before pointing the gun at Explosion, because they can do a similar job over a longer period of time without actually suiciding making their team slot more worthwhile. If you still think Explosion is broken after this, say your ressoning; but we have made our decision.

There shall be no more Explosion talk after this. If you think Landorus-Therian is broken because of Explosion, it is the abuser, and you should be encouraged to vote BAN.
 

Chloe

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Moderator
Yes, I'm ready to suffer the consequences so at least read that last will

The decisions of the council regarding the fair discussion about Explosion is the proof that they won't go forward and stick to a decision without taking in account what anyone say. You don't give any real reason or you give broken reasons about why banning Explosion instead of Lando-T who is just the victim of the broken thing, pmuch like darkrai and shaymin-s. I don't know why you are so stubborn and doesn't change your godly decisions when you still can (and not 6 months later). I can say with my experience in Pokémon that this is to me a very bad way to approach a suspect test like many other mnm suspects in the past. I won't bother to try to get reqs because the story will repeat itself for the next suspect test, so... I Hope yall will have fun but it's without me.

If so many people bring the subject of Explosion, maybe you should think about why. Please.
I was initially going to delete your post (I've stated several times to stop bringing up Explosion) but given the amount of people who seem to have a similar misunderstanding, I will break this down for a final time. I will try to be comprehensive and inclusive of arguments from both sides. This will be the final matter on the topic within this thread. I am hoping I can satisfy all parties with the content of this post. This will be the final post pertaining to the idea that Explosion is the unhealthy element here.

This suspect test is to establish whether Landorus-Therian is unhealthy for the metagame. The onus is on you to determine whether this Pokemon in Mix and Mega is healthy or not. All of us agree that Explosion is one of the major aspects to affect Landorus-Therian's potency, getting a one-time nuke to invalidate all of the Pokemon that wall its already perfect STAB combination. It's quite important to consider all of the redeeming factors that make Landorus-Therian such an offensive behemoth however.

You may decide to argue that Explosion is the only reason that Landorus-Therian is incredibly potent within the metagame, but this is false. Without Explosion, Landorus-Therian still has a severe lack of solid checks, an incredible matchup against bulkier playstyles, and a rather comprehensive movepool. Explosion does aid Landorus-Therian immensely however, no one is debating that.

The council is not ignoring the impact Explosion has on the metagame, but rather, the decision we've come to virtually unanimously is that Landorus-Therian is a major issue within the current metagame. We don't believe any other Explosion user is justifiably as potent in the current metagame. We don't see Magearna, Mew, Genesect or Metagross as elements problematic to the metagame, even when they bear Explosion.

It's impossible to predict the future perfectly but for now I'd be very surprised if Pinsirite Magearna becomes more potent because of this ban. Unlike the Pidgeotite debacle, you're not limited to one Explosion user per team. Pinsirite Magearna loses a great team option as a result of a ban vote. Additionally, Pinsirite Magearna cannot fulfil the same role that Landorus-Therian provides. However, both are great sets regardless of Explosion's existence or not. Chazm summarises this point very well in the post above. This entire situation is quite different from the Pidgeotite situation when considering this paragraph alone.

On a much much more minor note, it's paramount to consider the major point that Vhayle's and Stall is coming's arguments continue to lean on. Back when Deoxys-S was being suspect tested, Pidgeotite was not agreed upon as a major issue at all. In fact, I was the one to bring it up, post-suspect, and was met with a large amount of backlash. To pretend that we all knew Pidgeotite was the issue during the quickban of Darkrai and suspect tests of Shaymin-Sky and Deoxys-Speed is a lie. In fact, Vhayle, you yourself stated that Pidgeotite Deoxys-S was not an issue regardless. Stall is coming stated that Zap Cannon was the issue. It's kind of humorous to see you pretend to be the voice of reason following all of this.

At the time of my suggestion, several of the better, more experienced players within the community were all quite adamant that removing Pidgeotite would be a bad solution to the problem, yet we went ahead with it because it was the right thing to do. Examples of this can be seen easily here, here, and here. Using the argument that we're reliving the past is so unbelievably silly. These two events are not comparable. Magearna doesn't replace Landorus-T exactly, whereas Gengar replaced Shaymin-Sky replaced Darkrai because of the one stone clause. Without this clause these Pokemon would have initially been overwhelming, prior to the subsequent bans.

I also fail to see what interest we have in supposedly not listening to the public? We've clearly addressed your replies, with multiple justifications by different people, from the council and not from the council. If someone disagrees with you and argues against your points, it doesn't mean they're not listening. Numerous people have given adequate justifications for why this test is superior to an Explosion one, yet because it doesn't fit within the parameters of your ideal suspect target, it's supposedly incorrect.

People all thought either a Zap Cannon ban or no action at all was the solution to the problem. In retrospect, you both agree (hopefully at least) that we made the right decision eventually, despite the public outcry stating otherwise. Fast forward a year and a bit. You say now that Explosion is the problematic element, but we've given you a myriad of counter arguments to support the contrary opinion. Yet you continue to ignore it, pushing this fantasy that we're making the same mistake as before. These issues aren't comparable. I can't state this enough.

Explosion is not the issue. If you disagree, great, that's the amazing thing about us all having opinions. It's important to focus on the fact that Landorus-Therian has constrainted defensive teambuilding severely, without the need for Explosion. It's important to recognise its offensive qualities, its supportive movepool, and its plethora of other redeeming features.

This discussion should relate solely to Landorus-Therian from now on. I genuinely should not have given you another chance but I hate feeling like people think I'm being unjust so I felt the need to address any potential concerns. Consider Landorus-Therian with Explosion as a single package. It's redundant to argue whether Explosion is what makes it broken, please don't for the remainder of the suspect test.

It would be amazing if you guys could argue for a ban of Landorus-Therian or against a ban of Landorus-Therian, like the thread suggests you do. Productive discussion is always appreciated.

In conclusion:
If you believe Landorus-Therian with Explosion is unhealthy, vote ban.
If you don't find Explosion Landorus-Therian to be an issue, vote do not ban.

Thank you.
 
oof

I must admit the reasoning behind this suspect is much clearer now, so thank you Chloe.
However, I can't shake the feeling that this isn't the right thing to do. Landorus-T, while extremely powerful and and somewhat unhealthy provides a great counter-balance to the even more potent physical breakers as been mentioned before. It glues and rounds out the offensive set of pokemon in this meta.

I'm afraid that Landorus-T is not in fact deserving of a ban due to its sheer potential, with or without the forbidden move, but because it allows certain playstyles and sets to preservere. It's no secret that offense is the name of the game in MnM, with bulkier playstyles increasingly falling in usage. The VR itself is a mirror of this evolution with the top physical breakers all standing at the top, the rise of shuckle, the downfall of blissey...
But who can blame them? With powerhouses such as Kartana (Metagrossite, Pinsirite), Terrakion (Lucarionite, Pinsirite, Diancite), Zygarde (Lucarionite, any -ate stone whatsoever) and to some extent Groudon-Primal all having access to Swords or Dragon Dance, it's no wonder that defensive cores can't keep up.

I do not think this is a bad thing though. Fighting broken with broken. I like it. But the rise of this playstyle has been seen to decrease diversity in teams, and consequently, in matches. And this isn't so good.

The problem here is greater than Landorus-T in itself, and whether it can boom or not, doesn't change this fact. What will become of the aforementioned threats post-ban? Probably become even better, now that offense doesn't have a reliable way to stop them, and defense has always struggled. I wouldn't be surprised, if this ban goes through, to see kart, terrakion or even zygarde suspected next. So, this bears the question:

Do we keep this metagame offense-base like it has been or do we tune it down for the sake of balance?

Regardless, I'm always pro-change, so I'm voting ban.
 
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165079


We talking too much about Explosion, especially that Chloe precise to not speak about this in the first post. Nevertheless, thanks you Chloe for all your patience and your pedagogy.

I have an other problem in this suspect. In deed, I find that he was TOO easy. After 35 games of low ladder, I got more than 82% of GXE easily and I do not see now why Landorus is even suspect.

Do I have to vote noban because I do not met good users of Landorus among my 35 games ?
 

OM room

Rawrrr
is a Battle Simulator Moderator
Hullo here are reqs

165115


Srry I'm Late

Voting Ban

I agree that Landorus-Therian is broken due to explosion, but explosion itself doesn't break any other mons (see: pinsirite magearna, cloyster, etc.), therefore Landorus is the problem.

Thank you, have a good week.
 
oof

I must admit the reasoning behind this suspect is much clearer now, so thank you Chloe.
However, I can't shake the feeling that this isn't the right thing to do. Landorus-T, while extremely powerful and and somewhat unhealthy provides a great counter-balance to the even more potent physical breakers as been mentioned before. It glues and rounds out the offensive set of pokemon in this meta.

I'm afraid that Landorus-T is not in fact deserving of a ban due to its sheer potential, with or without the forbidden move, but because it allows certain playstyles and sets to preservere. It's no secret that offense is the name of the game in MnM, with bulkier playstyles increasingly falling in usage. The VR itself is a mirror of this evolution with the top physical breakers all standing at the top, the rise of shuckle, the downfall of blissey...
But who can blame them? With powerhouses such as Kartana (Metagrossite, Pinsirite), Terrakion (Lucarionite, Pinsirite, Diancite), Zygarde (Lucarionite, any -ate stone whatsoever) and to some extent Groudon-Primal all having access to Swords or Dragon Dance, it's no wonder that defensive cores can't keep up.

I do not think this is a bad thing though. Fighting broken with broken. I like it. But the rise of this playstyle has been seen to decrease diversity in teams, and consequently, in matches. And this isn't so good.

The problem here is greater than Landorus-T in itself, and whether it can boom or not, doesn't change this fact. What will become of the aforementioned threats post-ban? Probably become even better, now that offense doesn't have a reliable way to stop them, and defense has always struggled. I wouldn't be surprised, if this ban goes through, to see kart, terrakion or even zygarde suspected next. So, this bears the question:

Do we keep this metagame offense-base like it has been or do we tune it down for the sake of balance?

Regardless, I'm always pro-change, so I'm voting ban.
Okay I don't have a lot to say here (in general though, I'm for no ban.)

BUT

I don't know why you'd vote to ban Lando-T only because you're pro-change. That isn't how this stuff works. It's not about doing it because you want some change in a meta (be it you find it stale or whatever). You even say Lando-T isn't deserving of a ban in your post and say a whole lot of other stuff that leads you to that conclusion, yet you vote ban anyway. You shouldn't go for a ban just for change. That's not why I'm not for banning (I fail at effectively explaining why for some reason but I am).
I guess I could try, though.

A whole lot of it's kinda like what you have, it has the ability to slow up (and sometimes beat) other super good pokemon like Terrakion (Altarianite Lando-T resists both Fighting and Rock and both Lando-T's STABs are supereffective) Primal Groudon just kinda hates going vs Salamencite Lando-T in general, though it can Overheat or something like that. Without it, you end up with Terrakion getting even crazier, with less Pokemon to go up against its STAB combo that can force it out/beat it entirely.

Yeah Swords Dance helps Lando-T a ton and Explosion can kinda get it overwhelming sometimes, but it doesn't have much fun vs offense (generally priority and faster things like Kartana if boosted and stuff, Pinsirite Magearna resists both -ate STABs and is immune to Earthquake and can kinda freely Shift Gear on it, Pinsirite Zeraora is really fast, has fake out, can generally put up a free Bulk Up to aid it in going against Lando-T, especially if the Lando-T is Salamencite). It's simple enough to outspeed, Altarianite only hitting it's normal base 91 and Salamencite hitting 111, which Kartana, Terrakion, Zeraora, and all sorts of things outspeed (Terrakion really needs to be Pinsirite to do anything effective vs Altarianite Lando-T and relies on Stone Edge if it's Lucarionite vs Salamencite a bit too much for my own liking, but that's me).

There are random other defensive things that can kinda take it on (Latiasite Magearna, not "random" really, but drops hard to +2 Explosion, so it's not a great thing to bring in on already boosted Lando-T), Skarmory (random because nearly no one seems to run it). The defensive end tends to be the more difficult area to cover Lando-T, and I don't have way too much experience in bulkier teams so eh.

I guess that's all for now. have fun ripping it apart.
 
I don't know why you'd vote to ban Lando-T only because you're pro-change. That isn't how this stuff works. It's not about doing it because you want some change in a meta (be it you find it stale or whatever). You even say Lando-T isn't deserving of a ban in your post and say a whole lot of other stuff that leads you to that conclusion, yet you vote ban anyway. You shouldn't go for a ban just for change. That's not why I'm not for banning (I fail at effectively explaining why for some reason but I am).
Yes, I can. It's my vote, I could've not given any reasoning, but I did in hopes of giving the council members some food for thought regarding this suspect and the future of the metagame.

It all comes down to that last underlined question. This ban isn't coming on its own. And it's not just me saying it either. Other people have already expressed their concerns, including on this thread, about those physical attackers. Kartana and I think especially Terrakion are 100% gonna be a problem once Landorus-T is gone, this will lead to discussion that gears into the next suspect. The power creep in MnM is immense, it outdoes Ubers, most of them are actually useless or simple niches, and there simply isn't a good way of stopping them because not only are these things super strong, they're also super fast and have access to setup that is ALWAYS on their sets. You don't see a Kartana without Swords Dance, or a Zyg without Dragon Dance, it's absolutely nuts the ammount of power these sets have.

And the cool, or maybe not so cool, thing is they have different checks and counters. What beats Lando usually gets demolished by Pdon, what beats Kartana usually is ripped appart by Terrakion if it can't stop setup. The whole game is on their side, they hold all the momentum. You switch in your Terrak check, oopsie, I clicked SD/Substitute and now you can't really check me anymore. Sure, there will still be answers, but the ammount of pressure these pokemon exercise is very heavy not just on teambuilding but also during play.

That's why lowering the threshold is a viable alternative to balance the meta to a point where it's hopefully better than the previous state. I've said, and done, the same thing in the past with the Pidgeotite ban. I was very adamant against the ban because it wasn't a problem that the meta couldn't solve. Heck, it actually did for a few days before it was banned when people started using Sceptilite and Koko to stop Zap Cannons and sleep spam. But in this case, just like then, I'm voting ban because between the alternatives, I'd rather change.

quick edit: just to say that Sword and Shield aren't coming till christmas so we still have several months before a new gen is out and are stuck with what we got, so we really should just make the best of it.
 
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xavgb

EVs: 20 HP / 20 Def / 240 SpA / 116 SpD / 112 Spe
is a Pre-Contributor
165254


You might be wondering how I lost my 1 game. Was I outplayed? Have bad match up? Haxed perhaps? Alas you would be wrong, because didn't lose a single match. I was cruising and halfway through I wanted to check my progress.... and there was my 1 loss, just chilling there, completely uninvited to the party. Truly unfortunate way to miss out on the 35-0, but thems the breaks.

Pigeons summed up my thoughts on Lando-T really well, but I would like to elaborate on it a little. Lando's ability to steal momentum off revenge killers such as Altarianite Zygarde and Entei, combined with the free turns it can create to set rocks and a nice speed tier already make it a valuable asset to any offensive team. The important thing to note here is that other Stealth Rock users in the meta only have parts of this package; Swords Dance+Stealth Rock Terrakion doesn't find it as easy to come in, so it can't always afford to use up potential attacking turns to set rocks, whereas other options such as Pdon lack the speed tier and are forced to make tough choices between defensive variants (which lose out on the ability to set rocks against bouncers such as Mandibuzz), or more offensive variants that can compromise its ability to take important attacks in the first place (which is particularly relevant to Eruption variants since it often mandates pivot support to come in without chip). However, I likely wouldn't vote ban on lando if that utility package was all it could do. The real problem I find with Lando-T is that on top of all this utility, it still manages to limit even the best defensive counterplay by causing awkward situations that our current set of defensive mons don't really work around properly. For example, Latiasite Magearna is prone to letting in powerful Fire types, which on its own would be fine as the rest of the team should be prepared for fires; however, whilst Latiasite Magearna is switching in to Lando, it is letting sr up, which leads to dangerous scenarios a few turns down the line (often at the hand of Kartana for the current meta).

Normally, the existence of Sablenite combined with our defoggers allows bulkier builds to tackle rocks head on, and typically against most rockers they would be able to avoid the scenario I listed above - but Lando-T builds work around this by forcing a second conundrum, namely the pressure that it's able to put on defoggers and bouncers. When it comes to winning the hazards game vs Lando, most options struggle against its Explosion combined with its speed tier - to give some examples, most Arceus formes have to sacrifice important bulk in order to remove Landorus' hazards, Defog Lunala can't remove hazards reliably here due to Lando once again being faster, and Mandibuzz, whilst it is technically able to stop Landorus-T from getting its rocks up, actually choosing to trade with Lando often ends up being very exploitable for Lando teams, as Lunala and Kartana are naturally good partners that Mandibuzz is expected to carry a fair amount of weight checking. Dealing with Lando's rocks properly pretty much either falls on Sablenite Zapdos, a mon that's well known to struggle against other breakers such as Terrakion and offensive variants of Pdon, or 354 Speed Arceus formes, which not only weaken Arc's ability to take attacks from physical breakers in the first place, but also put the support Arceus into the firing line of boom, when it's generally too important defensively to just throw in front of Landorus.

The third issue that comes with prepping for Landorus revolves around its Swords Dance set. Typically, people stop sd Lando in its tracks by using either Latiasite Steels (almost entirely Magearna), Sablenite Zapdos or Ice Beam Ceus. This is actually fairly limited, and the result of limited counterplay is that teams featuring Landorus can use the Swords Dance set, knowing that it will likely end up targeting one of these three mons if it decides to nuke with +2 boom. This is where Landorus-T's so-called "toolkit" that has been referenced earlier in this thread comes into play - Access to Earthquake means that specifically Latiasite steels are the only steels that can take it on, whilst also taking out mons that can deal with other Flying types such as Defensive Pdon and Rockceus. Another factor in Lando-T's cores in particular being dangerous is that it's already a Flying type. I somehow haven't seen this stated yet, but the famous sd Lando+Pinsirite Magearna core can't be replicated without Lando-T - Mnm already protects against this due to stone clause preventing double Pinsirite, and the pressure to run multiple -ate resists (not that I think it's a bad thing) is definitely alleviated when double flying -ate cores don't also happen to provide important role compression to webs in particular.

Overall, I mostly wanted to give an explanation of exactly where the main issues lie when dealing with Lando in the current meta. My problem with Lando pretty much comes down to the three scenarios I've given here, and in a lot of these cases even teams that have accounted for Lando can struggle to actually win the matchup - in other words, my view on Landorus comes down to the sheer difficulty that comes with actually trying to punish teams for running it (aka what Pigeons said). In fact, my personal experience brings up a rather surprising thing that I honestly hadn't really realised until recently. I was asked by TectonicDestroyer if I could show him an example of an offense team that doesn't feature Landorus-T (in the event of a ban). Turns out I don't have any recent team that I could classify as offense, that doesn't also feature Lando-T; this really made me think about whether there was even much of a cost to having a Landorus-T in the first place.

All things considered, I'm fairly sure that I'll be voting BAN when the time comes.
 


Vote: Ban

Reasoning: Seems like suspect test history is repeating itself. Banning Lando-T is a Band-Aid solution to a bigger problem.

 
165401

Well, while I am pretty sure no one is wondering why/how I got these numerous loses, but let me still tell you how I did. Do I suck? Was I outplayed? Have bad match up? Haxed perhaps? Alas you would be wrong, because this my friend isnt a single correct question, its a multi-correct one which means there are 3 of the 4 options correct, I'll leave it up to you to which 3, and if you are still reading now, now to less important matters.

I vote Ban to my man Lando. From what I feel from my limited experience in MnM, Lando's most threatening sets are its explosion ( either SD or Rocks ) variant or altarianite SD one ( due to its ability to maintain a great match-up against common defoggers and efficiently maintain rocks up ). What both of these sets have in common that they heavily punish defensive plays, so in my opinion, if someone just slaps on a landorus sponge, in due course of the play it'll always have opportunity to break past the aforementioned defensive mon, either by the virtue of SD or explosion, or at the best leave it to a minimal health for any other sweeper to take advantage of. While earlier by the virtue of the above point I was against banning it, as more and more I played against it, I realised how just relying on aggressive plays can cost you since what separates landorus from other set-up sweepers is its ability to 1v1 most offensive mons, either outright killing them, or at the very worst 2hkoing. This is the biggest feature of lando that I find ban-worthy, plenty of mons can kill a lot in right situations (terrakion comes to mind), but the fact that one way or another you can always use landorus either as semi-wall in offensive match-ups, or just as a tool to clear out walls in defensive ones is ridiculous.
 

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165478


I read carefully the debate that took place before (with the help of Google translation haha) and yes, Explosion is not the only problem of Lando-T (although it must be admitted that it is surely the biggest). Indeed, it has many assets whose accumulation makes it really dangerous:

- The combination of the type Fly and type Ground very good defensively which leaves him only two weaknesses Water and Ice whose users are quite uncommon.

- His Intimidate talent before mega-evolve gives him the opportunity to come on Pokémon such as Terrakium, Zeraora, Zygarde, etc.

His very good stats offensively and defensively allowed him to not be 2HKO by attacks like Kartana's Leaf Blade, Zygarde's Extreme-Speed. He can globally 2HKO all non-defensive Pokemon thanks to his very high attack stats.

With Pinsirite: 90/175/110/115/100/111
With Salamencite: 90/155/140/115/100/111
With Altarianity: 90/185/110/145/90/91

- His movepools that allows him to put the rocks or defog to help the team. Access to powerful STAB like Earthquake and Frustration (with Pinsirite / Salamencite or Altarianite). The ability to rotate with U-Turn. But especially the access to Sword Dance that allows him to break any Pokémon with Explosion and hit hard with his STABs. Nevertheless it is not the role of pivots that we know well in the other tiers which poses here problem but rather that of Wall Breaker able to pose SR.

In short, Landorus-T is a Pokemon solid enough to win many 1v1 against Pokemon striking on the physical plane. He can pass any Pokémon using Explosion to allow a Sweeper to place himself and make big damage. There is no switch in as far as Explosion at +2 is capable of (almost) all OHKO. So, even though I like Landorus-T in other tiers such as OU and STABmons, I think it's actually too strong for the M&M and regretfully it should be banned.
 
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