MixCario: why do you not exist?

Every time I look at Smogon's analysis for Lucario, I can't help but thinking that something was blatantly missed in the screening of Lucario's movepool and stats. While he is frail, he has tremendous offenses with 110 attack and 115 special attack. So the question arises: why not have him follow in Infernape's footsteps and make him a wall breaker? The potential is all there, so let's try it out.

Set: MixCario
Lucario @ Life Orb
Inner Focus, Naive
-Close Combat
-Hidden Power [Ice]
-Extremespeed/Blaze Kick
-Dark Pulse

EVs: 80 atk/202 sp atk/220 spd
114 atk/144 sp atk/220 spd

Set: MixCario v2
Lucario @ Life Orb
Inner Focus, Naive
-Swords Dance
-Aura Sphere
-Blaze Kick

EVs: 132 atk/124 spd/252 sp atk

A few calcs:
Close Combat vs. max def+ Blissey: 864 damage. OHKO.

Hidden Power Ice vs. Smogon recommended Hippowdon: 260 damage. 2HKO.

Hidden Power Ice vs. Smogon recommended MixMence (Rash): 532 damage. OHKO.

Hidden Power Ice vs. Smogon recommended Gliscor: 504 damage. OHKO.

Dark Pulse vs. MixPert: 48%.

Dark Pulse vs. physical wall Cresselia: 48%.

Close Combat vs. spiking Skarmory: 44%.

Blaze Kick vs. supporting Bronzong (sassy): 59%. 2HKO.

Blaze Kick vs. Forretress: ~99.4%. Any less than maximum HP on Forretress and it's an OHKO (with Smogon recommended 96 def).

Hidden Power Ice vs. Rapid Spin Donphan: 78%. 2HKO.

Reasonably good results, it seems. 2HKOs are good as opponents flounder around attempting to figure out what exactly my moveset is and which wall they can send in safely. Unfortunately, he still suffers from moveslot syndrome, and would love to have an electric attack on here too, though it appears there's sadly no room. Blaze Kick is a good idea over Extremespeed if you intend to encounter Forretress or Bronzong on your journeys.

Regarding the EVs: I think a spread of 96 atk/156 sp atk/252 spd might also work, considering Lucario has STAB on Close Combat but not on HP Ice or Dark Pulse. This wouldn't be an option when considering Bullet Punch over Extremespeed, because Bullet Punch is still 20 BP less (even with STAB) which makes a big difference. Additionally, anything Steel can do Fighting can do better (offensively, of course). So let us discuss MixCario for now. Opinions?

After spending some quality time with MixCario, it's easy to see what makes Mixape so good compared to MixCario. It's not the offenses certainly: Lucario has better offenses in both categories. It's not the speed either, as the general target of both sets, walls, are generally very slow. Mixape's access to Grass Knot is a factor, but really only for Hippowdon and other Grounds. It's not even Nasty Plot, because Lucario has access to Swords Dance. The big difference is that Infernape has two usable STABs. Steel is the second least effective offensive type in the game, next only to Poison, whereas Fire has fantastic type coverage and Infernape gets a great STAB bonus, shooting his Flamethrower to tremendous power even without Nasty Plot.

One thing MixCario does have over Mixape is one simple advantage: it's a Lucario and not an Infernape. While so far everyone has marked this as a disadvantage (and criticized me for bothering to do this), think about fighting Lucario. When someone switches in a Lucario, how do YOU respond? Is it physical? Is it special? Do you have ANY idea? The thing is, it's very hard to tell what kind of Lucario you'll be fighting. When someone pulls an Infernape on you, it's obvious that it's a Mixape. You know to pull your Cresselia, Vaporeon, or Starmie. Let's say you bring in MixCario against a Salamence. You outspeed it and OHKO with HP Ice (this is set 1 of course). Assuming you have a SpecsLuke, your opponent pulls out Blissey. Close Combat for the OHKO. What's next? Maybe your opponent has an anti-Magnezone Forretress (aka one with EQ). Blaze Kick takes that one down. To make it shorter, it's tougher to predict against Lucario than against Infernape. That's that. If you have trouble predicting against Infernape, then that's you, but personally I find Infernape to be pretty darn predictable.

After going through numerous movesets, coming up with one universal moveset for mixed Lucario is nigh on impossible. For example, one that fits well with my team is Swords Dance//Close Combat//Crunch//Hidden Power Ice. The EV spread is definitely important though, and 132 atk/124 spd/252 sp atk is really recommended for anyone using Swords Dance.

I've had a request to compare MixCario to other Lucario. Let's start like this. These are maximum damage listed here.

MixCario HP [Ice] vs max def Gliscor: 147% max.

Max atk CB Lucario Close Combat vs max def Gliscor: 30% max.

MixCario Close Combat (no swords dance) vs SS stalling Cradily: 112% max.

Specs Lucario Aura Sphere vs SS stalling Cradily: 74% max.

Those are just a few. CB Lucario gets completely destroyed by Gliscor, because STAB EQ on Lucario's modest to crappy defenses is not so good. Out of my experience, MixCario after a CC or Crunch is a perfect lure for Gliscor, then a free OHKO with HP Ice.

Edit: You don't need to say that Mixape is better. You also don't need to say that I'm a retard for suggesting something other than Mixape.

Putting in an untested set for the Swords Dance set that was recommended. I'm testing the first set right now, anyone want to test the Swords Dance set?
NO AURA SPHERE?!?!? Crazy. However, CC obviously has the added bonus of beating down Blissey. I like it. It's like Mixape except uhhhhh, Lucario :P

Too bad you have nothing on Skarmory. With HP Ice you'd only be doing around 34-42%, you might 3HKO. However, againts Hippowdon and Cressy its much better.
The reason for a lack of Aura Sphere is so that Lucario can easily defeat two of the most popular walls in the game: Blissey with Close Combat and Hippowdon with Hidden Power Ice. I'll try and post a defensive threat list soon.
Common sense normally works. If people only use 260 attack on Infernape to OHKO Blissey, isn't it obvious logic that this Lucario, with higher attack, would also OHKO it?
I wonder how much HP ice and D Pulse do to Hippo and Cress respectively : /

Someone not lazy should find out ^_^
Where's the damage calculations? Since you are touting this as a "wall breaker", how much damage does this set actually do to all the common walls?

Lucario's Choice Specs set is already a fantastic way to break down most walls. Granted, you need to predict with more accuracy compared to this, but if you want a wall breaker that isn't overly reliant on prediction, just use Infernape. His Nasty Plot set is vastly superior to this and also poses a greater chance of sweeping. If you think Dragons are a problem, then a Close Combat/Flamethrower or Fire Blast/HP Ice/Grass Knot @ Life Orb set will accomplish what you're trying to do with Lucario way more effectively.
I run mixed lucario with

(i fluctuate ev spread)
+spe , - def /sdef nature
life orb
calm mind
dragon pulse
hp fire
close combat

dragon pulse can take down most common competitors with a CM or two. and brings down skarmbliss with ease via hp fire / cc respectively.

only problem i come across is cresselia, but cressy can't do shit for damage, so getting off a couple cms lets him bring her down with dp.
I run Mix Lucario with Aura Sphere, Dark Pulse, Extremespeed, and Close Combat. Aura Sphere is for good STAB and I don't know if it's normal or not, but people I play on shoddy switch Blissey into Aura Sphere because I give them the impression that it has Choice Specs and then I whip out the CC for the Blissey kill. Dragons are the real problem without HP Ice, but I usually run something else that can take them.
Close Combat on this Lucario running 114 attack EVs will do 864 damage to a max def+ Blissey. That's an OHKO.

It appears, however, that Hidden Power Ice is only a 2HKO on the Smogon recommended Hippowdon, clocking in at ~260 damage, or 61%.

HP Ice can be salvaged though. With a Naive nature, not only does Lucario outspeed a standard MixMence, it also OHKOs it with HP Ice, doing 532 damage to a Pokemon whose max HP is 394.
Everytime I've experimented with this chap I've actually had most success running a mixed set with Close Combat. Don't know too much about him though, some calcs would be awesome!
lower his attack EVs and raise his special attack EVs

cause whatever extremespeed doesn't hit for neutral, CC can take care of steels and rocks, while dark pulse takes care of ghosts

also, raising his special attack will allow him to do more damage to a hippowdon

let's look at all of his moves that are worth discussing

Force Palm (can paralyze)
Close Combat
Focus Punch
Shadow Claw
Stone Edge
Rock Slide
Poison Jab
Low Kick
Blaze Kick
Bullet Punch

Dark Pulse
Aura Sphere
Dragon Pulse
Water Pulse
Hidden Power
Shadow Ball
Focus Blast
Flash Cannon
Vaccuum Wave

Calm Mind
Bulk Up

now we have a lot of moves to choose from, some maybe asking why some are up there, those odd moves are there for type coverage

for example, a mixcario with this moveset

Close Combat
Water Pulse
Extreme Speed

covers all of his weaknesses, water pulse covers his ground and fire weaknesses while psychic covers his fighting weakness, even though it doesn't pack the biggest punch

so, discuss
it seems like a good set.
and is there a set you would recommend for a mixed electivire?
it has less sp. attack to work with, but more attack and speed
it's base speed is lower than lucarios, not by much

but really, the best thing for a mixvire is

Cross Chop
Ice Punch

electivire's special attack isn't great but it's attack is amazing, i'm not too sure on the EV spread
For mixed Electivire, I think just a standard Expert Belt set with Thunderbolt over Thunderpunch would work. You could run maybe 252 spd/156 atk/96 sp atk to give that bolt some punch (ha, ha, ha.)
CC has more BP than Aura Sphere so you can afford to have less EV. Also I don't use extreme speed because if it runs + nature there's no point..
Thank you!

I've got a Mixcario, but I gave it 128 Atk and 128 SpAtk EVs, Bullet Punch over Extremespeed (to hit FS'd Ghosts), and Dragon Pulse over HP Ice.
I'm sorry, but MixCario is not used as a wall breaker because infernape does it waaaay better.

Better speed and Nasty Plot are what separates the two. And an Infernape has no problems with Skarmory, unlike this Lucario. Here are some calcs to prove my point.

Assuming the Infernape set is:
Infernape @ Life Orb
16 Atk/ 252 SpAtk / 242 Speed
Naive (+Speed, -SpDef)
-Close Combat
-Nasty Plot
-Grass Knot

Salamence is not as big a problem as many think, as a 252 SpAtk EV'd Nasty Plot Life Orb Flamethrower still does 62.95% - 74.10% to 4 HP Modest Salamence. And he resists that. It does 70.09% - 82.48% to a -SpDef Mixmence with no HP EV's.

252 HP Impish Hippowdon takes 91.43% - 107.62% from a Grass Knot, a good shot at OHKO. This is without Nasty Plot. With Nasty Plot, it's 181.90% - 214.05%.

Blissey isn't always OHKO'd by Close Combatwith 0 HP EV's; it takes 98.92% - 116.44% (very good shot at OHKO) unless it carries HP EV's, which is rare. The damage from 252/252 then is 90.20% - 106.16%, still a good shot at OHKO. Any prior damage or Stealth Rock means it loses.

32 HP Bold Cresselia is eating 71.47% - 84.06% from Nasty Plotted Flamethrower. RestTalk Cresselia (252 HP / 148 SpDef) takes 55.63% - 65.54% from the same attack.

252 HP Impish Donphan isn't going to enjoy 136.46% - 160.42% from a NP Flamethrower.

216 HP Slowbro munches on a 122.08% - 143.64% sandwich after a NP Grass Knot. Hell, it takes 54.29% - 63.90% from NP Flamethrower.

Infernape says GTFO to Skarmory since Flamethrower does 140.12% - 164.97% without Nasty Plot.

Forretress? Flamethrower does 297.74% - 350.56% before NP. (252 HP)

Scizor? Flamethrower does 244.77% - 288.08% before NP. (252 HP)

Steelix? Flamethrower does 140.11% - 164.69% before NP. (252 HP)

252 HP / 180 SpDef Careful Dusknoir is taking 72.79% - 85.37% from Nasty Plot Flamethrower.

Spiritomb takes it worse: 82.89% - 97.70%.

Didn't have time for Swampert but he's obviously OHKO'd by NP Grass Knot (if not without NP he's probably OHKO'd anyway)

In short, the benefits of MixApe outweigh the benefits of MixCario.
I can't see any reason at all to use him over the ape.

(If my calcs don't prove my point, I'll fucking strangle you)

First, I'd like to start out by informing you that you're effectively attempting to say that I suck and that I don't know anything. I don't appreciate that.

Now then. While it's hard to argue my point against most of those, I at least have a shot at Blissey. You get a great shot at an OHKO on a blissey with no HP EVs; that's 651 HP. Which means your minimum damage is 637 and your max is 690. If someone were to carry max HP EVs (which I realize doesn't happen much/at all, but there are some out there), Infernape would fail to OHKO. Lucario has no such problem, doing 121% damage to a max def+ max HP Blissey. Just wanted to point that out.
And further, all of the Smogon recommended Blissey sets carry 148 HP EVs. This gives our beloved Fatticus Finch 688 HP. Thus, Infernape will OHKO if it rolls maximum damage, 2HKO if not. Just wanted to point that out as well.
The only reason your Lucario OHKOs Bliss is cause it has like fucking 100 useless atk EVs. 'Nape uses only 16 and basically accomplishes the same thing.

Rememeber, any prior damage means Blissey loses, so it's irrevelant.

Oh, and I never said you suck and don't know anything. Just wanted to point that out as well.

But Mixcario has no real advantage over Mixape, that is all. I was answering the question in your thread title.

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