MixCario: why do you not exist?

[Cynthia]

Don't forget that Lucario learns Agility as an Egg move, so it's possible to compensate for his average speed and put everything into atk and spatk. With 4 Speed EV's and a neutral nature Lucario hits 217 speed, double that for 434 which is pretty good.Here's the set I use:

Lucario @ Expert Belt
252 Atk/252 SpAtk/4 Speed
Rash Nature
Close Combat
HP Ice
Dark Pulse
Agility



You could run Psychic if you want( Heracross, Weezing, Tentacruel, Machamp), but Hp Ice and Dark Pulse cover more common Lucario switch-ins IMO.

 

[chaos]

Eh, I don't like "Mixcario." Seems like a retarded version of SpecsLucario, who already doesn't have trouble with "common walls."

 

[Forsety]

So the question arises: why not have him follow in Infernape's footsteps and make him a wall breaker?

I can think of one reason, 108 speed vs 90 speed.

Doesn't sound like much difference but it makes a whole world when neutral speed even beats base speed 100's. Ever wonder why Scarf'd Lucario's are more common than Scarf'd Infernapes? The fact alone that even if Garchomp pops up Infernape can slap it on its weaker side before dying is worth alot.

Another reason is Nasty Plot. All Lucario has is Calm Mind, see after one turn of potential setup you have assuming +speed and neutral offense.

Infernape- 614 s.atk + 346 speed vs Lucario- 493 s.atk + 306 speed.

As you can see not only would it be inferior in speed but ALSO in offense. So what can we conclude?

-Lucario only needs enough speed to beat major threats.
-A physical orientated Mixcario would make more sense with Swords Dance since it'd still be stronger than Infernape on both the special and physical sides.
-Crunch would probably hit harder than Dark Pulse on a physical variation.
-+Speed is only needed for beating Electivire and neutral base 100's.

 

[Soy-Monk]

I have a MixCario (baby form) that I haven't gotten around to training, but I'd suggest Shadow Ball over Dark Pulse, it has better coverage.

Plus, Infernape does it better.

 

[Jediment]

Shadow Ball and Dark Pulse have practically identical coverage.

The reason for the +speed is to help outspeed things that aren't walls and give it a little more widespread usability. With +speed nature and max speed it hits 306. That can outspeed Salamence easily for an OHKO with HP Ice, among other things.

Don't think I don't know what Mixape is or how good it is. I'm suggesting a NEW idea, not a replacement for the old one.

 

[Soy-Monk]

What good will Dark Pulse do to a Heracross?

Shadow Ball get resisted only be Steel with Normal being immune.
Dark Pulse does shit to Fighting and Steel.

I'd easily trade for Shadow Ball, considering that thing runs CC.

My Riolu has a + Speed nature too. Mine has Hasty. MixCario isn't something "NEW", it's been thought of before.

 

[cim]

It doesn't exist for a few reasons:
1. People would come up for a dumb name for it like "MixCario"
2. Mixed sweepers are usually mixed in order to deal with walls and other threats more easily. Aura Sphere already 2HKOs Bliss, so you don't need to run Close Combat on a Special set. Factoring in that both sides have priority moves to use and there's no reason not to go one instead of mix.

 

[Jediment]

For one, I'd like to request not to attack me directly, for those of you who see this as an excuse to flame me. I know that you don't like me, but restrain your emotions for now. I'll be sure to compensate for you in Firebot. (I realize you're not criticizing me by disliking MixCario, but there are detectable flames pervading this topic)

Regarding Heracross. Lucario shouldn't be going against Scarfcross because it'll get raped by Heracross CC. If, for whatever reason, I run into a CBcross, Blaze Kick can handle it.

 

[Lee]

1. People would come up for a dumb name for it like "MixCario"

So we have MixApe and Mixmence, but Mixcario is suddenley a retarded name? Please expalin how.

The problem with MixCario, is that SpecsLucario does just fine as it is. You're not catching anything off-guard, and you're not hitting anything significantly harder. Hippowdon takes way more from Specs Aura Sphere than he does from LO HP Ice and Blissey is smacked about by Specs Sphere anyway.

It needs to offer something that SpecsLuke doesn't already offer.

 

[cim]

So we have MixApe and Mixmence, but Mixcario is suddenley a retarded name? Please expalin how.

The problem with MixCario, is that SpecsLucario does just fine as it is. You're not catching anything off-guard, and you're not hitting anything significantly harder. Hippowdon takes way more from Specs Aura Sphere than he does from LO HP Ice and Blissey is smacked about by Specs Sphere anyway.

It needs to offer something that SpecsLuke doesn't already offer.

Not to mention that a Hippowdon alpready could be hit by HP Ice on Specs.

MixCario is retarded because of how it sounds. Mixape and mixmence? You could utter those without my ears bleeding. But using "Cario" as a suufix? Dumb. At least use Mixluke.

Here's a rule everyone should think about (especially me): If a "new set" is not listed and seems utterly obvious (Mixluke), it's because it's dumb.

You could give him Agiglity or Choice Scarf to actually give him a chance to sweep, but at that point why are you still using a Mixed set? It's not like MixApe where it doesn't get a good Special Fighting move that does enough to Blissey, and it's not like Mixmence where your best Special option cuts that stat. Seriously, think about a set's praticaltiy before declaring yourself a genius (not that the OP did...)

Adding that using Close Combat over Aura Sphere will result in not 2hkoing Skarmory when Aura Sphere would 2hko Blissey, and the fact that Extremespeed and Vacuum Wave do roughly the same damage after STAB, then it becomes apparent that Mixcario is just SpecsLuke but wasting EVs in an OP's desperate attempt to be original.

 

[Soy-Monk]

... then it becomes apparent that Mixcario is just SpecsLuke but wasting EVs in an OP's desperate attempt to be original.

But I repeat, Mixed Lucario isn't original, it's just not used XD

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

Hmm Boxed thinkers outlooking one fact. What Lucario does in fact have a HUGE advantage over an Infernape would be...prevention of being revenge kill. Should it hold Swords Dance+Extreme Speed, there are some teams that DO in fact use things like Heracross to CC, Dugtrio to EQ, Azelf to FT/Psychic, Starmie to hit it hard, as faster Pokes that people rely on to stop a Lucario or Infernape sweep. Now with SD+XS, they're not so much revenge killing anymore, are they?

 

[Soy-Monk]

MixCario with Swords and X Speed is plausible, but that wasn't one of the movesets suggested by the OP. I think the discussion was revolving around those sets.

Not to mention that I have an undying hatred for fan-loved Pokemon, such as Pikachu and Lucario.

 

[LordSkie]

I think people are being way overharsh on the OP here, mixcario (which is a fine, understandable name to me- where is 'luke' in 'lucario', apart from in enunciation? Mixape, Mixmence, Mixcario. All works for me.

But on the real topic- the big thing Mixcario would have going for it would be surprise. It uses a special attack- you assume specs, scarf or (assuming you take recoil) LO. But you assume you're running a special set with all the above. When a physical suddenly comes out, it could screw you over a lot.

True, Mixape does the job a lot better than Mixcario. But, Blissey does her job better than anyone and people still find alternatives. Why? Because sometimes you don't want just ONE option for a team slot, regardless of if it's the best choice. You want to avoid using the most common pokes and find your own way of making a team, I don't see Mixape dominating Mixcario as being part of the argument, the resists Lucario has can give him a helping hand switching in already, which is a positive against the ape already.

 

[Jediment]

I've said it before, I'll say it again.

Stop flaming. I understand that you're criticizing, but don't also flame me. Really guys.

 

[Kingdrom]

I would suggest changing the name from Mixcario to Mixluke to stop the flaming.

Now about the ev's... it would be nice if you would post minimum and maximum damage, or even a percentage range. On the first spread for blissey, max hp/max def with a + nature is easily knocked out by lucario. You only need 80 atk ev's on the first lucario set to OHKO the most physically defensive blissey. The rest could be put in special attack if wanted.

One of Lucario's advantages over Infernape is that it can switch in on some attacks. Rock does one quarter of the normal damage, and dark is also ineffective. Extremespeed is very useful on sets with swords dance, as it can also work as a revenge killer.

Lucario doesn't need max speed either imo. He only needs 232 speed ev's to reach 301 speed, and there isn't anything worth outspeeding that it can.

Mixcario could potentially work, but it would need to have an optimized ev set imo.

 

[Forsety]

1. People would come up for a dumb name for it like "MixCario"

And this is possibly the silliest piece of unconstructive and unnecessary flamebait in this thread so far since MixCario is just natural anyway.

Hmm Boxed thinkers outlooking one fact. What Lucario does in fact have a HUGE advantage over an Infernape would be...prevention of being revenge kill. Should it hold Swords Dance+Extreme Speed, there are some teams that DO in fact use things like Heracross to CC, Dugtrio to EQ, Azelf to FT/Psychic, Starmie to hit it hard, as faster Pokes that people rely on to stop a Lucario or Infernape sweep. Now with SD+XS, they're not so much revenge killing anymore, are they?

Now you mention it, I do rather like that idea. I did mention earlier a physical orientated Mixcario might be viable and I think Aero just hit it on the dot. Also quite frankly its the only constructive thing to do at the moment is to simply create another set rather than bash an ineffective set.

Lucario@Life Orb
-Extremespeed
-Swords Dance
-Aura Sphere
-Crunch

I'm not sure on what kind of nature/Ev's it could possibly run besides +atk/252 atk but unless I'm mistaken Crunch + Aura Sphere compliments ES type coverage quite nicely. With Aura Sphere killing those nasty steel or rock with high defense and Crunch for Dusclops/Cress purposes.

LO ES after Swords Dance should be a OHKO on a Heracross just using the current topic for example. Not sure on the other levels of damage at the moment but one benefit would be that it can focus more on offense and less on speed. It might be possible to reduce the attack EV's and rely on SR to add on the extra fatal damage.

I have a feeling this might already be in the Lucario Smogon analysis but I haven't checked. Even if it is, I have a feeling its probably not a mixed version and plain Swords Dance with the nature of this thread.

 

[Jediment]

Cresselia generally is more physically oriented than special (because Blissey exists), but with Swords Dance and max atk Lucario could easily defeat Cressy.

Personally, I think Mixcario isn't any worse than Mixluke. One thing I have to point out is that Mixcario is a lot better than Lumixio.

I'll see if I can rework the EVs. I have a whole test team set up with MixCario v1 in it, so finding out the effectiveness of these doesn't take long. I might try out v2 as well, to see if it actually works or not.

 

[Phuquoph]

If this descends into a discussion of whether "MixCario" is a dumb or cool name, the thread will be locked.

Stay on topic.

 

[Blue Kirby]

Honestly, those of you who think criticism is fine instead of participating in a healthy discussion under the proviso that "the OP didn't suggest that" need to rethink your position.

Swords Dance + Extremespeed does indeed make a mixed Lucario really quite a viable option, with its advantages made clear by MoP already.

I agree with you Forsety - special Fighting and physical Dark aids Lucario's coverage immensely, and if it really comes down to it, it can just Extremespeed to at least get in some damage in a hopeless situation.

I like the concept, and think it deserves some testing. I'll mess around with it today.

 

[Jediment]

I find that butting Blaze Kick out of the picture means that problems arise with things like Forretress and Bronzong. Extremespeed gives Lucario a bit more potential for a late game sweep, but Blaze Kick gives it better wall-shattering coverage.

 

[Forsety]

The idea is though Bronzong is neutral to both Aura Sphere and Crunch so its going to give way on one side eventually especially when you have Swords Dance Crunch. Foretress is purely physical orientated so a good STAB Aura Sphere will still do a number on it. In fact I've sometimes seen Forry die to STAB Surf's/Hydro Pumps so I'm pretty sure Aura Sphere will 2HKO minimum.

As long your not hitting anything for non-effective which this coverage does not than at the very least it will be doing something. In this case we have a strong ES user who cannot be completely walled. If you want more super effective coverage than something else on your team can do that.

Blaze Kick certainly is possible as an option as it gives more super effective coverage in exchange for non-universal coverage. But it would have to be over Crunch otherwise Lucario loses anything resembling speed and you have an even harder time when Gyarados comes out to play. Crunch still at least threatens a defense drop to negate the attack drop and ES can finish it off before it attacks.

 

[Jediment]

Then would the most agreeable moveset be

Lucario @ Life Orb
Inner Focus, Naive
-Swords Dance
-Crunch
-Extremespeed
-Aura Sphere

EVs: 156 atk/132 spd/220 sp atk

 

[Holden]

Then would the most agreeable moveset be

Lucario @ Life Orb
Inner Focus, Naive
-Swords Dance
-Crunch
-Extremespeed
-Aura Sphere

EVs: 156 atk/132 spd/220 sp atk

That set is almost strictly worse than:

Lucario@ Life Orb
Swords Dance
Crunch
Extremespeed
Close Combat

Adamant: 252 atk 66 sp def 190 spd (Evd to be 3hkoed by Suicine unboosted surf and outspeed jolly Breloom)

Close Combat is a 2hko on skarm, 1hko after SD with stealth rock up. After swords dance, it hits hippo for about 87-90%.

This set packs so much more power its not even funny. Why run Aura Sphere and sp atk evs when Close Combat ohkos so much after a swords dance?

 

[Fenikkusu]

The problem with mixed lucario is that since it has high BP attacks, and priority attacks, on both ends of the spectrum, you have to find a mixed niche that one of the sets that focus one one stat wouldn't do better.