Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

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DoW

formally Death on Wings
I think the point is more regarding it being Talon rather than Gale Wings. However, it isn't Gale Wings that needs a ban (as we can see from Fletchinder) and a Gale Wings + Talonflame complex ban would be overcomplicating the situation. Therefore, Talonflame gets banned.
 
Well, time to start using eviolite fletchinder. (Oh god, what is this madness of a pokeamon?)

On a serious note, it's going to be interesting to see how big an impact this actually has.
  • Grass mono's are usually one of the least popular due to their multitude of weaknesses. (But they have picked up Mega-V this gen)
  • Fighting mono's have to contend with fairy types and haven't really picked up any new tactics this gen.
  • Bug mono's may benefit the most from this. Most people from gen 5 know that bug's can be a huge threat, especially now that they have this little move called sticky web.
So will Tflame really have that big of an impact on the metagame? We shall see.
 
Hi everyone. Sorry that it has taken me so long to reply to this topic and come to a decision. As I'm sure you can all understand, deciding the fate of a Pokemon isn't something to be taken lightly. I've discussed my thoughts and listened to the thoughts of many individuals in this thread and on Showdown about Talonflame and the effects that it has on the metagame, and based on these things as well as my practical experience both using and facing it, I've come to a decision.

Let me preface this by saying that I realize no matchup, no matter how lopsided, is completely un-winnable. There are very strategic ways to overcome poor matchups, and that's one of the things that makes the Monotype metagame so exciting. The second that Mono-Dark is faced against Mono-Fighting, you know who is going to be favored to win, but it's still a matchup where either side can come out on top. The problem with Talonflame is that it takes already very lopsided matchups (Flying/Fire v. Bug/Grass) and makes them almost 100% guaranteed to end up in the Talonflame user's favor, and it takes another matchup (Fire v. Fighting) that should be fairly even and makes it considerably more lopsided for the Talonflame user.

Again, I realize that Talonflame doesn't mean that you auto-win in those particular matchups, and I understand that each of these types has its own way of beating it. As I pointed out earlier on in this thread, Mono-Grass can utilize Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn to rack up an insane amount of residual damage against Talonflame without even attacking it. But then what do you do against Swords Dance/Roost Talonflame? And then what do you do when you need to use Ferrothorn against something else before Talonflame even comes out? Most of the time, you simply lose. There is no surefire way to beat this one Pokemon on any of these team archetypes because, unlike other Pokemon in other matchups, you can't just run priority and hope for the best or run a Choice Scarf user and revenge kill it. A 120 Base Power STAB priority move with amazing neutral coverage is really good in standard OU, but when you go into a Monotype environment, some types have no reliable way of defending themselves against it.

Basically, without Talonflame in the metagame, Mono-Bug, Mono-Grass, and to an extent Mono-Fighting have more room to grow and prosper, while Mono-Flying will still be a fantastic type because of all of its amazing options and Mono-Fire will still be totally usable, particularly so if a lack of Talonflame causes Mono-Bug and Mono-Grass to rise in popularity. In order to promote more diversity in the metagame, Talonflame will be banned from OU Monotype.

Now that all of that is out of the way, I want to talk very briefly about suspects and bans in Monotype. If I feel uncomfortable making a decision on a certain suspect because I just don't know it well enough or I simply cannot come to a decision about it on my own, I will hold a vote with a council of users that I will determine sometime before the vote based on quality posts in this thread and knowledge and experience in the metagame as observed from the Showdown Monotype chat/Showdown ladder score. This is something that I'd like to reserve for very special circumstances. Holding an actual suspect test would simply be too difficult, particularly because this is an unofficial metagame, and a suspect ladder wouldn't see enough activity to be worthwhile.

For now, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on what the metagame will look like without Talonflame. How do you think Mono-Flying will do without it? Do you think this will give Mono-Bug, -Grass, and -Fighting some room to grow? Will the hit from Mono-Fire indirectly affect the other types? Let me know what you're thinking. Also feel free to post replays of your teams in this thread so that we can see the metagame in action! Please limit discussion on whether or not you thought the ban itself should have happened; I've had the chance to hear your opinions, and a decision has been made.

The ban should be on the PS server as soon as possible. Thanks everyone!
Excuse me for being frank but this is utter bullshit. Now I'm not upset about the final decision I'm upset about how this is handled. Today in monotype people all over asking about this ban in a surprised fashion and don't know about the thread( THIS IS A BIG ISSUE *cough* COMMUNITY) What do you mean your little council and you get to make a decision that effects all the people of monotype who I am now just telling of the thread because they are curious of how this was done. Even in this thread people were talking about a suspect ladder meaning A Vote , now even if you couldn't get a suspect ladder. The Community is what makes up Monotype and it should be the community that decides the ban. You and 5 others decided this though? This is what I meant when I said this should be handled more formally. When Mega-Luke was under suspect everyone who played OU knew about it and guess what there was a ladder cutoff and a vote. So why didn't we do this the way the community decides? Hell , even Baton Pass is publicised. Now don't give me "we tried to get it out" bullshit. It could have been in the room desc, posted frequently in the chat, and encouraged to talk about, even I could have accomplished that. Treecko I suggest u repeal the ban and make it a community decision before you go along with this new method that IS NOT community based. Whate makes you and your council's opinion on the matter superior than the majority of the community? Make this a public vote, this is not okay at all. Let me just give you an example


Treecko if you were gonna handle it like this you should have announced that and awaited feedback to change your method, but instead you just surprise with a "ban, now good day." I'm surprised you would make such a individualistic based method as you are a leader in the monotype community, and as such I assumed you would know that community above all things. Fix this nonsense Treecko make it a public vote with a ladder requirement. And as a ban idk 60% or so. As long as the community makes the choice and not just "Treecko and frens", I will be satisfied. Even I can do better advertising the thread than what it got. THE WHOLE DAY, people are just asking about this and thats why the sudden boom. There's been debate in the room and discussion about what happened. This was not formal at all and not appropriate for such an underground thread/ and how many players it will effect. THIS IS A VERY BAD METHOD. I cannot stress this enough. What was the point of us voicing our opinions if the final choice came down to you and your council. To maybe give you guys insight? Bullshit, it goes Topic(Community talks about the issue), Action(Authority host a stage/event to let the community and filters if this is necessary), Judgement( The issue is either solved or dismissed). You Missed a step , now I don't really care if I'm speaking out of line but its a bit ridiculous. I'm only being this harsh considering how much authorization you have. Cuz' basically when all of these people come into the Monotype Room asking about the Underground Ban/Thread the responses have been "its done and over." That is not acceptable. Telling all of those people basically their opinions on the matter doesn't matter is not a good method of handling things. You contradicted this whole thread and My time spent debating here. Do something about it.


Arcticblast note: I put this in hide tags as to keep this from getting in the way of metagame discussion. Yes this is an important discussion, but please take it to PM rather than arguing it here.
 
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DoW

formally Death on Wings
Excuse me for being frank but this is utter bullshit. Now I'm not upset about the final decision I'm upset about how this is handled. Today in monotype people all over asking about this ban in a surprised fashion and don't know about the thread( THIS IS A BIG ISSUE *cough* COMMUNITY) What do you mean your little council and you get to make a decision that effects all the people of monotype who I am now just telling of the thread because they are curious of how this was done. Even in this thread people were talking about a suspect ladder meaning A Vote , now even if you couldn't get a suspect ladder. The Community is what makes up Monotype and it should be the community that decides the ban. You and 5 others decided this though? This is what I meant when I said this should be handled more formally. When Mega-Luke was under suspect everyone who played OU knew about it and guess what there was a ladder cutoff and a vote. So why didn't we do this the way the community decides? Hell , even Baton Pass is publicised. Now don't give me "we tried to get it out" bullshit. It could have been in the room desc, posted frequently in the chat, and encouraged to talk about, even I could have accomplished that. Treecko I suggest u repeal the ban and make it a community decision before you go along with this new method that IS NOT community based. Whate makes you and your council's opinion on the matter superior than the majority of the community? Make this a public vote, this is not okay at all. Let me just give you an example


Treecko if you were gonna handle it like this you should have announced that and awaited feedback to change your method, but instead you just surprise with a "ban, now good day." I'm surprised you would make such a individualistic based method as you are a leader in the monotype community, and as such I assumed you would know that community above all things. Fix this nonsense Treecko make it a public vote with a ladder requirement. And as a ban idk 60% or so. As long as the community makes the choice and not just "Treecko and frens", I will be satisfied. Even I can do better advertising the thread than what it got. THE WHOLE DAY, people are just asking about this and thats why the sudden boom. There's been debate in the room and discussion about what happened. This was not formal at all and not appropriate for such an underground thread/ and how many players it will effect. THIS IS A VERY BAD METHOD. I cannot stress this enough. What was the point of us voicing our opinions if the final choice came down to you and your council. To maybe give you guys insight? Bullshit, it goes Topic(Community talks about the issue), Action(Authority host a stage/event to let the community and filters if this is necessary), Judgement( The issue is either solved or dismissed). You Missed a step , now I don't really care if I'm speaking out of line but its a bit ridiculous. I'm only being this harsh considering how much authorization you have. Cuz' basically when all of these people come into the Monotype Room asking about the Underground Ban/Thread the responses have been "its done and over." That is not acceptable. Telling all of those people basically their opinions on the matter doesn't matter is not a good method of handling things. You contradicted this whole thread and My time spent debating here. Do something about it.
Sure a vote would have been nice, but I'm not sure you need be like this about it. Hollywood obviously knows the tier well enough to make an informed decision, and has listed the reasons for the ban along with the notice of the ban itself. You bring up the Mega Luke suspect test, but I'd like to bring up the Gengarite quick ban. Many people didn't see the reason at the time, and there certainly wasn't a vote, but the metagame turned out far better because a small group of well-informed people decided it should be banned. We can tell he knew what he was talking about, he brought up the Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn method of potentially defeating talon.
The community as you keep talking about did have an input: Treecko posted about how he wasn't certain about whether to ban it or not, and asked us to give input. We did, and it helped with the decision-making process. A suspect ladder wasn't an option, and a requirement on the normal ladder might have been unfair on those who only ladder on Frost for example, and in any case there's no telling whether someone is biased just from how well they do on the ladder. Nor if they know what they're talking about, just from the ladder.
Also, there's no excuse for not knowing about this thread. It was quite widely discussed in the monotype room, I think the vast majority of people who had something to say did know about it and did comment. Perhaps a little more advertisement would have helped, but I still think that all possible useful input had been given. More people would mostly have just meant more repetition.

If the decision needs to be remade, at least put forward evidence of what could have been discussed but wasn't, and then maybe another decision will be made.
 
Sure a vote would have been nice, but I'm not sure you need be like this about it. Hollywood obviously knows the tier well enough to make an informed decision, and has listed the reasons for the ban along with the notice of the ban itself. You bring up the Mega Luke suspect test, but I'd like to bring up the Gengarite quick ban. Many people didn't see the reason at the time, and there certainly wasn't a vote, but the metagame turned out far better because a small group of well-informed people decided it should be banned. We can tell he knew what he was talking about, he brought up the Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn method of potentially defeating talon.
The community as you keep talking about did have an input: Treecko posted about how he wasn't certain about whether to ban it or not, and asked us to give input. We did, and it helped with the decision-making process. A suspect ladder wasn't an option, and a requirement on the normal ladder might have been unfair on those who only ladder on Frost for example, and in any case there's no telling whether someone is biased just from how well they do on the ladder. Nor if they know what they're talking about, just from the ladder.
Also, there's no excuse for not knowing about this thread. It was quite widely discussed in the monotype room, I think the vast majority of people who had something to say did know about it and did comment. Perhaps a little more advertisement would have helped, but I still think that all possible useful input had been given. More people would mostly have just meant more repetition.

If the decision needs to be remade, at least put forward evidence of what could have been discussed but wasn't, and then maybe another decision will be made.
you call the 5 frequent posters the community? KK. As for gengarite most ignorant players didn't recognize why it was banned, but better players used it to what it was banned for. Gengarite was a respectable and rather one sided decision. This however, is not. They aren't ignorant of why it should be banned or not and guess what, if they were able to know about this thread they could have had a deeper understanding. Now I know I was a bit aggressive , but I think I had the right to be a bit upset. And those who only ladder on Frost? Your joking, I really hope you are. Even the minority that take frost laddering seriously, I don't think would mind getting to a certain point in Main to vote. And no excuse for not knowing? Da hell, so your saying its more than 3 / 4ths of the Monotype Community's fault They don't know about the thread? Looks like it wasn't "widely discussed" enough. The discussion is here articuno, all I want is there to be a stage for those of the community to take part in deciding the meta *cough* vote. I do admit for being a bit overzealous with my wording and I suppose I should apologize but I'm not sorry for feeling the community should know this perspective and about a suspect before the ban.
 
you call the 5 frequent posters the community? KK. As for gengarite most ignorant players didn't recognize why it was banned, but better players used it to what it was banned for. Gengarite was a respectable and rather one sided decision. This however, is not. They aren't ignorant of why it should be banned or not and guess what, if they were able to know about this thread they could have had a deeper understanding. Now I know I was a bit aggressive , but I think I had the right to be a bit upset. And those who only ladder on Frost? Your joking, I really hope you are. Even the minority that take frost laddering seriously, I don't think would mind getting to a certain point in Main to vote. And no excuse for not knowing? Da hell, so your saying its more than 3 / 4ths of the Monotype Community's fault They don't know about the thread? Looks like it wasn't "widely discussed" enough. The discussion is here articuno, all I want is there to be a stage for those of the community to take part in deciding the meta *cough* vote. I do admit for being a bit overzealous with my wording and I suppose I should apologize but I'm not sorry for feeling the community should know this perspective and about a suspect before the ban.
I'm a frost user and yeah i'd say they have some of the best mono users since 4/5 of the top 5 on the mono ladder are from frost and i've went on a 19 winning streak with mono bug last time i laddered (like feb) but yeah if a frost user wanted to vote nothing is stopping them from laddering for a bit to the rank necessary. Another thing i've noticed is talk about a talon ban..as a bug user I'm fine with it but i almost never have trouble with talons or fire/flying teams so yeah. I probably won't vote when the time comes since i doubt i speak for the majority of the users from main but watevz.
 
I've already address why Gale Wings and Gale Wings + Talonflame were not banned. I'm not covering it again. Feel free to read back in this thread for my reasoning on that.

You also can't compare OU suspect tests with Monotype bans. OU easily has 100x the userbase, so they can afford to run suspect tests based on ladder tests. This thread has been around for ages, and I originally posted that I was looking at Talonflame for a potential ban literally three weeks ago today. I've advertised this thread on the Monotype room on PS. Sorry that some Frost server users didn't weigh in on the suspect, but I have yet to see any good arguments for keeping Talonflame in the tier, before or after the decision was made.

At the end of the day, you might think that it's a bad method, but quite frankly, I don't trust enough of the community to make such an important tiering decision. We have plenty of good players who know what they're talking about, but bans go beyond just being good at the game. You have to understand how a ban is going to affect the metagame and what kind of metagame we're ultimately striving for. You have to be able to put aside any bias based on your preferred types. I didn't bring it to a vote because I wasn't yet confident that we have enough people who would be able to do this effectively, and even if we do, I'm not able to identify that based on the posts I've seen in this thread.

Sorry. Sucks. But at the end of the day, the decision has been made, and I obviously believe that the decision was best for the metagame or else I would not have made it.

Any further issues with the way I handled this suspect can be brought up to me in PM. I'm all for open communication, but I don't want it to detract from the thread. I will delete posts not relevant to the metagame itself.
 
Its all for the better really as Talon was just a little ridiculous in many regards. I approve of the ban and will be happy to see some more grass/bug monos get used again (not saying they weren't already, but their usage should go up significantly I hope).

For those do recall me from any of my alts (ELITE4Salemance, Salemance, anything involving the misspelling of that stupid dragon xD) should know I have experience with mono but im sorta happy to see that there actually is a thread looking to help balance it somewhat. Thanks for those who are helping trying to make it fair for all monos and junk and keep up the work yall.
 
I've already address why Gale Wings and Gale Wings + Talonflame were not banned. I'm not covering it again. Feel free to read back in this thread for my reasoning on that.

You also can't compare OU suspect tests with Monotype bans. OU easily has 100x the userbase, so they can afford to run suspect tests based on ladder tests. This thread has been around for ages, and I originally posted that I was looking at Talonflame for a potential ban literally three weeks ago today. I've advertised this thread on the Monotype room on PS. Sorry that some Frost server users didn't weigh in on the suspect, but I have yet to see any good arguments for keeping Talonflame in the tier, before or after the decision was made.

At the end of the day, you might think that it's a bad method, but quite frankly, I don't trust enough of the community to make such an important tiering decision. We have plenty of good players who know what they're talking about, but bans go beyond just being good at the game. You have to understand how a ban is going to affect the metagame and what kind of metagame we're ultimately striving for. You have to be able to put aside any bias based on your preferred types. I didn't bring it to a vote because I wasn't yet confident that we have enough people who would be able to do this effectively, and even if we do, I'm not able to identify that based on the posts I've seen in this thread.

Sorry. Sucks. But at the end of the day, the decision has been made, and I obviously believe that the decision was best for the metagame or else I would not have made it.

Any further issues with the way I handled this suspect can be brought up to me in PM. I'm all for open communication, but I don't want it to detract from the thread. I will delete posts not relevant to the metagame itself.
u dont trust the community to make a decision that effects the community even with filtered voting.... okay ._. also u said there was no good arguments anti-ban? i guess i wasted a lot of time typing then. Did you not think my points were valid / strong? Now your censoring a topic thats rather relevant because its against you. I can't even...
 

Barida

Banned deucer.
I've already address why Gale Wings and Gale Wings + Talonflame were not banned. I'm not covering it again. Feel free to read back in this thread for my reasoning on that.

You also can't compare OU suspect tests with Monotype bans. OU easily has 100x the userbase, so they can afford to run suspect tests based on ladder tests. This thread has been around for ages, and I originally posted that I was looking at Talonflame for a potential ban literally three weeks ago today. I've advertised this thread on the Monotype room on PS. Sorry that some Frost server users didn't weigh in on the suspect, but I have yet to see any good arguments for keeping Talonflame in the tier, before or after the decision was made.

At the end of the day, you might think that it's a bad method, but quite frankly, I don't trust enough of the community to make such an important tiering decision. We have plenty of good players who know what they're talking about, but bans go beyond just being good at the game. You have to understand how a ban is going to affect the metagame and what kind of metagame we're ultimately striving for. You have to be able to put aside any bias based on your preferred types. I didn't bring it to a vote because I wasn't yet confident that we have enough people who would be able to do this effectively, and even if we do, I'm not able to identify that based on the posts I've seen in this thread.

Sorry. Sucks. But at the end of the day, the decision has been made, and I obviously believe that the decision was best for the metagame or else I would not have made it.

Any further issues with the way I handled this suspect can be brought up to me in PM. I'm all for open communication, but I don't want it to detract from the thread. I will delete posts not relevant to the metagame itself.
WHAT GOOD MONOTYPE PLAYERS ARE FROM THE MAIN? someone please tell me this because im sure frost owns like the top ten like what the hell do yall have even one good player....... when someone tells me 5 good and I MEAN GREAT PLAYERS FROM THE MAIN THAT IS ACTIVE then we can talk more about this but for now fuck yall shit
 
I think Scizor should also be banned, because after one swords dance it sweeps fairy teams, and ice and rock teams. It's ban may allow these types to see more usage. Also Azumarill, because it sweeps fire, and rock. Also mega Pinsir should be banned because I want to use grass types and the aerilite quick attack prevents that. Why not just ban all priority, because it allows you to easily win against an advantageous matchup? In fact, the only priority allowed should be quick attack and extreme speed, because normal isn't supereffective against anything.
 
I think Scizor should also be banned, because after one swords dance it sweeps fairy teams, and ice and rock teams. It's ban may allow these types to see more usage. Also Azumarill, because it sweeps fire, and rock. Also mega Pinsir should be banned because I want to use grass types and the aerilite quick attack prevents that. Why not just ban all priority, because it allows you to easily win against an advantageous matchup? In fact, the only priority allowed should be quick attack and extreme speed, because normal isn't supereffective against anything.
Fairy Teams are able to use their choice of Fairy/Steel type to hamper the effort of Scizor (with one of them being able to prankster Reflect) while Mono Rock is capable of manhandling Scizor with Meggron if they so choose too as it is their greatest assest defense wise against them. Ice has a lot of problems by itself and I don't know much about it to go into.

Azumarill is hampered by being too slow and often having to rely on Aqua Jet to hit things and even with CB, 40 base power on a move is still 40 Base power, making it capable for teams to take advantage of it. Fire is able to abuse to Mega Char X's defensive sets to defeat it, heck, even Sacred Fire Entei as once burned, Azumarill is crippled and against a fire team, they are bound to be packing one burn in a form or another. Rock can handle Azumarill as well through a Defensive Cradily set and other options as well.

Those arguments are null and void as those monotypes have options of beating those threats (Mega Pinsir has a base 78 power move, which to show the difference, is only an 8HKO on Hippowdon while a Talonflame Brave Bird (Banded) is a 3HKO to show how much base power matters in damage). Grass and Bug can defeat Pinsir as its not blisteringly fast and its Priority is bout the same as an unstabbed Extremespeed, making scarfers viable options against it while Talonflame did not afford them that luxury.

Gee they banned the priority king, must mean that all priority is on the table....such generalization. Sheesh.
 
Fairy Teams are able to use their choice of Fairy/Steel type to hamper the effort of Scizor (with one of them being able to prankster Reflect) while Mono Rock is capable of manhandling Scizor with Meggron if they so choose too as it is their greatest assest defense wise against them. Ice has a lot of problems by itself and I don't know much about it to go into.

Azumarill is hampered by being too slow and often having to rely on Aqua Jet to hit things and even with CB, 40 base power on a move is still 40 Base power, making it capable for teams to take advantage of it. Fire is able to abuse to Mega Char X's defensive sets to defeat it, heck, even Sacred Fire Entei as once burned, Azumarill is crippled and against a fire team, they are bound to be packing one burn in a form or another. Rock can handle Azumarill as well through a Defensive Cradily set and other options as well.

Those arguments are null and void as those monotypes have options of beating those threats (Mega Pinsir has a base 78 power move, which to show the difference, is only an 8HKO on Hippowdon while a Talonflame Brave Bird (Banded) is a 3HKO to show how much base power matters in damage). Grass and Bug can defeat Pinsir as its not blisteringly fast and its Priority is bout the same as an unstabbed Extremespeed, making scarfers viable options against it while Talonflame did not afford them that luxury.

Gee they banned the priority king, must mean that all priority is on the table....such generalization. Sheesh.
Bug can use their choice of bug\rock to stop tflame. Crustle tanks the bbird no problem, hits back. Terrakion laughs in talonflame's face. Ferro was already mentioned as a viable counter, and a defensive cradily could probably set up on a banded Talonflame, and could definitely KO it. Everything has counters, and I shouldn't HAVE to run Klefki -just- to deal with Scizor, in the same vein that one shouldn't have to run crustle to deal with Talonflame. You're mentioning specific sets that counter, and I can give sets that counter Talonflame.

Mega Pinsir actually has the bulk to pull off a swords dance, especially on a grass team. Your argument on the damage against Hippowdon is irrelevant, because against hippowdon Pinsir can just use return, and the ban was based on damage against super effective types. Pinsir may not be able to ohko hippowdon, but it roflstomps grass with return + quick attack.. Scarfers are too frail, and the bulkier pokes can't take the return. Mega Pinsir needs ban.

Azumarill under rain lolsweeps fire teams. If your Droughter is dead, well, GG. And if it's not, then Azumarill can just switch so that it can come back later, with a vengeance. It's also an amazing revenge killer on fire types, as they virtually have noting to switch into. And now that one of fire's best counters to Azu is banned, we can expect the metagame to suffer, with no one using fire types anymore.

EDIT: 252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Cradily: 172-204 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Curse + recover for days. It'd kill itself before it killed cradily.
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei in Rain: 410-486 (110.2 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
There goes that burn.
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 246-289 (82.5 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And all it takes after this is an aqua jet. Charizard can't ohko azu, lol.
And heavens forbid its a belly drum azumarill.
 
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Omega-Xis

Mauville's Own
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
Yeah, so I am an owner of the Monotype Room on Frost.

I was asked to advertise this thread there in the Monotype room and have done so. I know that at some times when I posted this link there, there was at least 20-25 users. Therefore, users such as Crazy Horse and others who frequent Frost shouldn't be pointing fingers. I put this out there. The members of your community should have passed this by you. Yes, it could have been more heavily advertised on main, but I think all of you complaining that it wasn't heavily advertised enough should be going to main to talk to some people who saw me advertise the link there.
 
Yeah, so I am an owner of the Monotype Room on Frost.

I was asked to advertise this thread there in the Monotype room and have done so. I know that at some times when I posted this link there, there was at least 20-25 users. Therefore, users such as Crazy Horse and others who frequent Frost shouldn't be pointing fingers. I put this out there. The members of your community should have passed this by you. Yes, it could have been more heavily advertised on main, but I think all of you complaining that it wasn't heavily advertised enough should be going to main to talk to some people who saw me advertise the link there.
Omega, just because some people saw it doesn't mean it wasn't properly advertised. It may not even be your fault. But baton pass, for example, was being questioned, and that was mentioned in the announcements. I don't see why Talonflame couldn't have had the same respect, especially if it's been in discussion for 3 weeks. I've been on the Main server, just not in the monotype room, every day for the past three weeks, and I heard and saw nothing about this. I know I'm not the only user that was completely blindsided by the ban.

Mega Gengar was quick banned, but this isn't the same as that situation. Mega Gengar was actually quick banned because of a change. Once the perish trapping set came to light, it was deemed to need a ban. Talonflame has had the same set since x/y launched. It's still just as good/bad as it was half a year a year ago. Not to mention, for a ban to be justified, the change in question has to severely affect the metagame. As it was previously said, grass already has a lot of issues, which is why it isn't used very much, and fighting is still just as used, despite Talonflame. Bug already loses vs. fire and flying unless you pull off a shell smash crustle, so all this serves to do is nerf fire\flying against neutral and disadvantageous match-ups, when it's obvious Talonflame isn't even strong enough to be a huge threat vs. those types, because if it was, it'd be banned in ou.

Like, it's literally being banned because it wins against an advantageous match-up. Does that really make sense?
 
Bug can use their choice of bug\rock to stop tflame. Crustle tanks the bbird no problem, hits back. Terrakion laughs in talonflame's face. Ferro was already mentioned as a viable counter, and a defensive cradily could probably set up on a banded Talonflame, and could definitely KO it. Everything has counters, and I shouldn't HAVE to run Klefki -just- to deal with Scizor, in the same vein that one shouldn't have to run crustle to deal with Talonflame. You're mentioning specific sets that counter, and I can give sets that counter Talonflame.

Mega Pinsir actually has the bulk to pull off a swords dance, especially on a grass team. Your argument on the damage against Hippowdon is irrelevant, because against hippowdon Pinsir can just use return, and the ban was based on damage against super effective types. Pinsir may not be able to ohko hippowdon, but it roflstomps grass with return + quick attack.. Scarfers are too frail, and the bulkier pokes can't take the return. Mega Pinsir needs ban.

Azumarill under rain lolsweeps fire teams. If your Droughter is dead, well, GG. And if it's not, the. Azumarill can just switch so that it can come back later, with a vengeance. It's also an amazing revenge killer on fire types, as they virtually have noting to switch into. And now that one of fire's best counters to Azu is banned, we can expect the metagame to suffer, with no one using fire types anymore.

Okay lets see.

I never said there weren't viable sets, just the number of them is the difference. Never said you were forced to run Kfeki to stop Scizor, I said that was a nice stop to it (course most people still run it anyway) and you can go from Intimidate users in Granbull or Mawile. I just stated an example that I knew, and while it may not have been the best idea to cite some counters that I knew about, it was just to show that they were not completely shit on by those threats. And countering Talonflame has been cited as possible if Ferrothorn (against certain sets yes) and oh nice, Terrakion is a counter? What else does Fighting use to fight off that bird? The options they have are limited, but when a team is required to carry multiple counters to a specific mon makes it centralizing.

I only mentioned the damage against Hippowdon as to show the difference in their power moves, not saying it was a real case scenario (which it still holds true as the damage is still the same as it is just multiplied to greater effect through hitting super effective types) and as I said, the fact its priority move's base power is on such a weaker level than that of Talonflames makes it much much easier to revenge kill.

Azumarill sweeping under rain against a type that is weak to it. I can see that, but that's if you can keep rain up against a type that also has a type of weather that halves yours power. I can under stand the need of preparing in worse case scenario but you seem to be acting as if that is not possible. And nice job showing what it can do to two of the things I mentioned (except I said bulky Zard X but that's irrelevant). And metagame to suffer if no one is using Fire types? Sorry, but fire types still were a damn force to be reckoned with last gen when they fought gainst infinite rain and solely had to rely on Ninetales for their support, and the idea they cant handle a mon they had to also deal with last gen seems a little presumptuous considering the amount of options they gained and still had from last gen to fight against it.

I can understand all your points fine and well and some of them do hold some merit as Monotype is about building a team around one type that is able to hold itself against the types that are both super effective against it and not. This is an interesting and delicate issue, but I believe Talonflame's banning was in the right, if only barely (as I will admit, Talon being able to offer the utility it does is going to be missed by fire and I do not know how much it will impact until more time has officially passed).
 

Omega-Xis

Mauville's Own
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
Omega, just because some people saw it doesn't mean it wasn't properly advertised. It may not even be your fault. But baton pass, for example, was being questioned, and that was mentioned in the announcements. I don't see why Talonflame couldn't have had the same respect, especially if it's been in discussion for 3 weeks. I've been on the Main server, just not in the monotype room, every day for the past three weeks, and I heard and saw nothing about this. I know I'm not the only user that was completely blindsided by the ban.

Mega Gengar was quick banned, but this isn't the same as that situation. Mega Gengar was actually quick banned because of a change. Once the perish trapping set came to light, it was deemed to need a ban. Talonflame has had the same set since x/y launched. It's still just as good/bad as it was half a year a year ago. Not to mention, for a ban to be justified, the change in question has to severely affect the metagame. As it was previously said, grass already has a lot of issues, which is why it isn't used very much, and fighting is still just as used, despite Talonflame. Bug already loses vs. fire and flying unless you pull off a shell smash crustle, so all this serves to do is nerf fire\flying against neutral and disadvantageous match-ups, when it's obvious Talonflame isn't even strong enough to be a huge threat vs. those types, because if it was, it'd be banned in ou.

Like, it's literally being banned because it wins against an advantageous match-up. Does that really make sense?
All I'm saying is that the fault is being placed 100% on main users when Frost users that saw me advertise should have also spread word that this was happening. Nobody is 100% at fault. I.e., it takes two to tango.
 
Okay lets see.

I never said there weren't viable sets, just the number of them is the difference. Never said you were forced to run Kfeki to stop Scizor, I said that was a nice stop to it (course most people still run it anyway) and you can go from Intimidate users in Granbull or Mawile. I just stated an example that I knew, and while it may not have been the best idea to cite some counters that I knew about, it was just to show that they were not completely shit on by those threats. And countering Talonflame has been cited as possible if Ferrothorn (against certain sets yes) and oh nice, Terrakion is a counter? What else does Fighting use to fight off that bird? The options they have are limited, but when a team is required to carry multiple counters to a specific mon makes it centralizing.

I only mentioned the damage against Hippowdon as to show the difference in their power moves, not saying it was a real case scenario (which it still holds true as the damage is still the same as it is just multiplied to greater effect through hitting super effective types) and as I said, the fact its priority move's base power is on such a weaker level than that of Talonflames makes it much much easier to revenge kill.

Azumarill sweeping under rain against a type that is weak to it. I can see that, but that's if you can keep rain up against a type that also has a type of weather that halves yours power. I can under stand the need of preparing in worse case scenario but you seem to be acting as if that is not possible. And nice job showing what it can do to two of the things I mentioned (except I said bulky Zard X but that's irrelevant). And metagame to suffer if no one is using Fire types? Sorry, but fire types still were a damn force to be reckoned with last gen when they fought gainst infinite rain and solely had to rely on Ninetales for their support, and the idea they cant handle a mon they had to also deal with last gen seems a little presumptuous considering the amount of options they gained and still had from last gen to fight against it.

I can understand all your points fine and well and some of them do hold some merit as Monotype is about building a team around one type that is able to hold itself against the types that are both super effective against it and not. This is an interesting and delicate issue, but I believe Talonflame's banning was in the right.
The thing is, a Defensive hitmontop also checks Talonflame. Not to mention that the most important thing has gone unsaid. Banded Talonflame kills itself. Roost Talonflame can -not- take the hit required to pull off a successful roost. Talonflame can sweep, but it's easy to stop, or at the very least, it only takes down two or three pokes. A check can pull off a hit, and that stops it in its tracks.

But at this point, were starting to centralize against scizor. Non-mega Mawile and Granbull are both mediocre, so running them specifically as a scizor counter is when I start to centralize. I prefer mega gardevoir to mega mawile. You could argue that this isn't actually centralizing, and just preparing. Well, the same argument applies across the board.

The fact that it's priority is slightly weaker doesn't change that Mega Pinsir still outspeeds and Ohkos most threats on a bug/grass team. There isn't one Scarfer that could take a quick attack from mega Pinsir, and ohko it, save galvantula. And if the Pinsir pulls of a swords dance, or a moxie boost from a revenge kill? Well, GG.

Your point about azumarill sweeping against a type that is weak to it is valid, but that's the same thing with Talonflame. Every Pokemon has it's counters, and Talonflame isn't excluded from that.
 
The thing is, a Defensive hitmontop also checks Talonflame. Not to mention that the most important thing has gone unsaid. Banded Talonflame kills itself. Roost Talonflame can -not- take the hit required to pull off a successful roost. Talonflame can sweep, but it's easy to stop, or at the very least, it only takes down two or three pokes. A check can pull off a hit, and that stops it in its tracks.

But at this point, were starting to centralize against scizor. Non-mega Mawile and Granbull are both mediocre, so running them specifically as a scizor counter is when I start to centralize. I prefer mega gardevoir to mega mawile. You could argue that this isn't actually centralizing, and just preparing. Well, the same argument applies across the board.

The fact that it's priority is slightly weaker doesn't change that Mega Pinsir still outspeeds and Ohkos most threats on a bug/grass team. There isn't one Scarfer that could take a quick attack from mega Pinsir, and ohko it, save galvantula. And if the Pinsir pulls of a swords dance, or a moxie boost from a revenge kill? Well, GG.

Your point about azumarill sweeping against a type that is weak to it is valid, but that's the same thing with Talonflame. Every Pokemon has it's counters, and Talonflame isn't excluded from that.
Hence my latter point:

I can understand all your points fine and well and some of them do hold some merit as Monotype is about building a team around one type that is able to hold itself against the types that are both super effective against it and not. This is an interesting and delicate issue, but I believe Talonflame's banning was in the right, if only barely (as I will admit, Talon being able to offer the utility it does is going to be missed by fire and I do not know how much it will impact until more time has officially passed).
Which goes to show its a subject that can be a little silly. Don't get me wrong man, I love debating over the usefulness of some mon's on certain teams (like you will probably be using Mawile in one form to then become Mega Mawile) but it could go on for quite awhile through us debating the differences of some of the strongest attackers in the meta (funny how we are discussing stupidly powerful things and how they are getting walled/checked).

It can go in circles all day, yet they made the decision and I can see why they did it. I love the fact people are against it (the only time we should not be having to decide on something is unless its Mega Kangaskhan or something) but sometimes the decision of the higher ups must be accepted unless its just plain wrong, which in this case, it isn't just plain wrong.
 
So this is the first time I am hearing about this topic of Talonflame ever being suspect tested.
There was limited announcement about there being a suspect test or a possibility of a ban, if at all. Granted Omega and the other staff of the Monotype room on Frost advertised (I cannot speak for advertisement about this on main), knowledge about this topic was low. But this point aside, banning Talonflame makes fire almost uncompetitive, bringing it back down to the level it was at during Generation 5. Yes, I understand that Charizard-Megas do give it some edge from where it was before, but the viable pokes for a fire mono with no Talonflame are structurally the same as they were in Generation 5.

Banning Talonflame basically makes fire unusable as it was its main vehicle of priority in battles. The only priority fire monotypes are restricted to is Infernape with Mach Punch whereas other types have more range.

As for counters and checks, most, if not all, monotype teams come packed with a physical wall that can check Talonflame perfectly fine. Types such as bug, grass, and fighting have viable means of checking, if not countering, Talonflame.

For Fighting Monos, Terrakion and Cobalion can easily live one Brave Bird or flare blitz, banded or not, without boosts and easily return with a kill.
For Grass Monos, Cradily, with access to rock slide, easily checks Talonflame as it is can recover off damage taken or simply kill Talonflame outright.
For Bug Monos, anything with decent bulk such as Armaldo can easily take a brave bird or flare blitz with or without band.

Bottom line, at least give this a proper Gale Wings Suspect Test instead of basing this final decision on the input of a few.

Although my opinions might be biased due to the fact I am mainly a Fire Monotype, I still do think these points are valid, biased or not.
 
Also Omega, I don't see how you can blame people for not spreading your advertisement from Frost's Monotype Room. Out of all the league rooms if you ever bother to join one and post it would've been spread everywhere. I did help spread news of this thread by telling other leagues and voila. I could comment on what went down last night but I think Imma save that for later.
 

Rotosect

Banned deucer.
Banning Talonflame from mono-type because it has a very strong match-up against grass, bug and fighting types goes completely against what monotype stands for.
In monotype some match-ups are just nigh impossible and you just have to deal with it with desperate measures like surprise Focus Sashes or Berries.
Mega Gengar was quick-banned because its trapping abilities game mono-ghost and mono-poison a strong match-up against everything, but the only new good match-up Talonflame brings on the table is mono-fire vs mono-fighting, since fire already beats grass and bug and flying already beats grass, bug and fighting.
Now, is mono-fire having an easier time against mono-fighting enough to justify Talonflame's ban? Keep in mind that mono-fighting has access to Terrakion and Keldeo, both of whom absolutely rape mono-fire, so Talonflame sort of balances things out.

I hate the bird with a passion because it's one of the most brain-dead spammable things ever seen in competitive Pokemon, but even I can't justify a ban because of this.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
It's banned. Hollywood has asked us to discuss the impacts of this, rather than continuing to discuss whether it was the right decision or not. Could we please just discuss the impacts it will have and accept that it's banned, whether or not it should have been? For one thing, none of the things being brought up about whether it should have been banned are new, everything's already been discussed anyway. So it'd be nice if we were discussing something productive, instead.
 
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