Resource Monotype SM Viability Rankings

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Haxorus(Dragon) D -> C
Haxorus has indirectly gotten a lot better for dragon in SM with the introduction of Mimikyu and Magearna along with steel getting increasingly more popular. As Haxorus has base 97 speed (1 higher than Mimikyu, two higher than Kyurem-B) it is able to 1HKO Mimikyu through disguise without having to rely on a choice scarf. Its large move pool allows it to be rather unpredictable at first and has the ability to 1HKO Heatran with Superpower and almost 1HKO Magearna(25% chance) with Earthquake after a dragon dance or if it is holding a choice band. Its access to both swords dance and dragon dance allows it to fill roles as both a lategame sweeper and an overall wallbreaker while also occasionally baiting a taunt on the choice band set.
While Haxorus is far from the best dragon pokemon available it certainly deserves to be ranked higher than D
 
Haxorus(Dragon) D -> C
Haxorus has indirectly gotten a lot better for dragon in SM with the introduction of Mimikyu and Magearna along with steel getting increasingly more popular. As Haxorus has base 97 speed (1 higher than Mimikyu, two higher than Kyurem-B) it is able to 1HKO Mimikyu through disguise without having to rely on a choice scarf. Its large move pool allows it to be rather unpredictable at first and has the ability to 1HKO Heatran with Superpower and almost 1HKO Magearna(25% chance) with Earthquake after a dragon dance or if it is holding a choice band. Its access to both swords dance and dragon dance allows it to fill roles as both a lategame sweeper and an overall wallbreaker while also occasionally baiting a taunt on the choice band set.
While Haxorus is far from the best dragon pokemon available it certainly deserves to be ranked higher than D
I would argue that Haxorus is fine at D, mainly due to 4MSS... its greatest niche is having Mold Breaker, but it doesn't OHKO Mimikyu unless it runs either Iron Tail (lol) or Shadow Claw (which fails to KO with Jolly, which you need to not be outsped and OHKOd by Mimikyu).

Besides this, every S/A/B/C rank dragon gets good enough coverage to deal with Heatran and Magearna and friends (except for maybe Guzzlord which really should be unranked atm). Haxorus can't really be justified for use above any of them. 4MSS is really what gets it though, as you are typically stuck with some sort of boosting move (usually DD), a dragon move, and something to hit steels (EQ or Superpower, usually not both), which only leaves one slot for either fairy coverage (typically Poison Jab) or a cooler option like Taunt or SD...
 
I would argue that Haxorus is fine at D, mainly due to 4MSS... its greatest niche is having Mold Breaker, but it doesn't OHKO Mimikyu unless it runs either Iron Tail (lol) or Shadow Claw (which fails to KO with Jolly, which you need to not be outsped and OHKOd by Mimikyu).

Besides this, every S/A/B/C rank dragon gets good enough coverage to deal with Heatran and Magearna and friends (except for maybe Guzzlord which really should be unranked atm). Haxorus can't really be justified for use above any of them. 4MSS is really what gets it though, as you are typically stuck with some sort of boosting move (usually DD), a dragon move, and something to hit steels (EQ or Superpower, usually not both), which only leaves one slot for either fairy coverage (typically Poison Jab) or a cooler option like Taunt or SD...
While Haxorus does suffer from 4MSS, especially on the DD / SD sets its large move allows it to patch holes that your team might have to different pokemon. Having access to superpower is huge as it can essentially 6-0 vs normal monotype and helps a lot with the steel monotype matchup that dragon usually struggles with as anything that switches in on banded superpower will risk being 1HKO'd if it isn't neutral damage
as for mimikyu
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Shadow Claw vs. 6 HP / 0 Def Mimikyu: 302-356 (119.8 - 141.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Shadow Claw vs. 6 HP / 0 Def Mimikyu: 263-309 (104.3 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
I think Haxorus should stay D, not only because it does suffer from 4MSS, but because it is greatly outclassed by all the other highly rated mons. It is very hard to find place for Haxorus in teambuilding without getting rid of something that would be of great help in the metagame and also has a lackluster single dragon typing. Also I think Dragonite already does a great job of abusing Superpower with Choice Band and is a great dragon dancer.
 
I think Haxorus should stay D, not only because it does suffer from 4MSS, but because it is greatly outclassed by all the other highly rated mons. It is very hard to find place for Haxorus in teambuilding without getting rid of something that would be of great help in the metagame and also has a lackluster single dragon typing. Also I think Dragonite already does a great job of abusing Superpower with Choice Band and is a great dragon dancer.
While I don't disagree Dragonite is definitely better than Haxorus, you are unfortunately only able to run either the Choice Band or the dragon dance set and I personally feel Dragonite is better as a Dragon Dancer. Haxorus is in general somewhat of a poor dragon dancer due to its somewhat underwhelming bulk compared to Dragonite and its inability to Snowball like Moxie Salamence. I do however feel the Choice Band set is vastly underrated due the flexibility of its coverage and the raw damage of its 147 attack boosted by choice band. As mentioned earlier the threat of having access to both SD and DD often forces the opponent into taunting only to be hit by a banded Outrage / whatever
The oddly rare pure dragon typing is often quite useful as it does not carry the 4x weakness to ice many popular Dragons do and such allows it to live a few attacks would 1HKO the likes of Salamence and Garchomp while also avoiding the Stealth Rock weakness of Kyurem-B
252 SpA Latios Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Haxorus: 262-310 (89.4 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 178-210 (60.7 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 187-221 (63.8 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 254-300 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
While Haxorus is far from the best or most viable Dragon I definitely feel it deserves to be ranked higher D
 
While I don't disagree Dragonite is definitely better than Haxorus, you are unfortunately only able to run either the Choice Band or the dragon dance set and I personally feel Dragonite is better as a Dragon Dancer. Haxorus is in general somewhat of a poor dragon dancer due to its somewhat underwhelming bulk compared to Dragonite and its inability to Snowball like Moxie Salamence. I do however feel the Choice Band set is vastly underrated due the flexibility of its coverage and the raw damage of its 147 attack boosted by choice band. As mentioned earlier the threat of having access to both SD and DD often forces the opponent into taunting only to be hit by a banded Outrage / whatever
The oddly rare pure dragon typing is often quite useful as it does not carry the 4x weakness to ice many popular Dragons do and such allows it to live a few attacks would 1HKO the likes of Salamence and Garchomp while also avoiding the Stealth Rock weakness of Kyurem-B
252 SpA Latios Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Haxorus: 262-310 (89.4 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 178-210 (60.7 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 187-221 (63.8 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 254-300 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
While Haxorus is far from the best or most viable Dragon I definitely feel it deserves to be ranked higher D
- pretty sure ice beam latios (especially not lo) isnt a thing, plus latios should just draco it (even non-lo has a very high chance to ko at -2)
- Gyara doesnt use ice fang
- Metagrossite is banned lol
- Taunt also isn't really common enough to justify the argument of baiting them into taunting and then hitting them with banded (move).
- mono dragon typing isn't super useful in this meta because that means it relies on its coverage moves to hit steel/fairy types which leads into 4mss
- Dnite is better as a choice band user because of multiscale and a less predictable/better (notably espeed) movepool, whereas haxorus has 4mss, especially if you're using shadow claw (seriously, what is it with this community and shadow claw on random pokemon? first infernape, and now this?)
- using haxorus means you're not using something that benefits your team (i.e. dragalge, hydreigon dnite, even mence) and haxorus doesnt really do anything better than those, it's virtually 100% outclassed

sorry for shitty formatting but i'm lazy
tl;dr haxorus is still a shitmon and should remain at D
 
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Hi, Im here to suggest a bump up for alolan-persian from C--->B, (maybe even A????), as ive found an obnoxious set pairing with with
to a frightening degree of balance-breaking power.

The set goes as follows:

Persian-Alola @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Parting Shot
- Switcheroo
- Toxic


On paper, this looks strange but theres a method to the madness: this is a perfect pairing with m-sableye for a defensive core (excluding fairies ofc), but the set is strange so ill explain in detail why this works so well:

Item: Choice scarf is the best item for this set as it will give no damage boosts to the opponent if a bad switcheroo is done, this also puts persian with its amazing 115 base speed at 399 speed with no investment while the scarf is on it, giving it amazing speed for 0 investment, and even still outspeeding base 70 +speed natures like breloom even after the scarf is gone!

Ability: pretty straight forward, fur coat doubles the mons defense permanently, and with the full defensive investment, gives it effectively a whopping 169 base defense, higher than toxapex, actually surpassing deoxys-defense levels of walling.

EV's: standard walling EV's, boosting the stats you need and not taking away from anything you really need. Impish nature, more defense, you have no special moves so thats not losing any sleep.

Moves:
Foul play: STAB foul play putting persians horrible attack stat aside in exchange for using the enemies attack against it is perfect for this mon, and its STAB. Who doesnt like STAB?
Parting Shot: This move puts the opponent at -1 in attack and special attack while forcing persian to switch out, getting it out of danger and crippling offensive threats, whicle switching into something that can take the hit better.
Switcheroo: This is trick, just renamed for those who have never seen this move and never see it used (more mons know trick than switcheroo) which you will use to "trick" your scarf onto opposing walls, locking them into 1 move and crippling them from being able to do their job disrupting
Toxic: Its toxic. Need I say much else? Hypnosis is perfectly acceptable in this slot as well but i feel toxic works on the balance breaking a bit better.

So some clear weaknesses for alolan-persian would be: Taunt, special attackers, toxic. But theres a problem with all of these weaknesses:
Mega-sableye blocks all of them. (except again, fairies, but we have 4 other mons for that dont we?)


Persian also sports such a ridiculous level of defense that some of the hardest hitting physical threats in the game cannot OHKO this cat: (and i will be adding banned and unreleased mons to this list for show)

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 166-196 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO (Foul play: 0 Atk Persian-Alola Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO)

+2 252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 248-292 (74.4 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (foul play: +2 0 Atk Persian-Alola Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 315-372 (121.1 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO)

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 273-322 (81.9 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (parting shot out as foul play only does 20%~)

252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola in Grassy Terrain: 238-281 (71.4 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery (parting shot, superpower and megahorn do less damage)

252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 198-233 (59.4 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (foul play: 0 Atk Persian-Alola Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, and youre faster, non-banded is a 3HKO)

252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 280-331 (84 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (parting shot)

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 336-396 (100.9 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (parting shot)

252+ Atk Buzzwole Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 222-262 (66.6 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (parting shot into m-sab)


...i think you get the point.

Alolan-persian has been hidden OP for quite a while, lets bump this thing up! Its AMAZING!
 

iLlama

Nothing personal, I protect my people

Hi, Im here to suggest a bump up for alolan-persian from C--->B, (maybe even A????), as ive found an obnoxious set pairing with with
to a frightening degree of balance-breaking power.

The set goes as follows:

Persian-Alola @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Parting Shot
- Switcheroo
- Toxic


On paper, this looks strange but theres a method to the madness: this is a perfect pairing with m-sableye for a defensive core (excluding fairies ofc), but the set is strange so ill explain in detail why this works so well:

Item: Choice scarf is the best item for this set as it will give no damage boosts to the opponent if a bad switcheroo is done, this also puts persian with its amazing 115 base speed at 399 speed with no investment while the scarf is on it, giving it amazing speed for 0 investment, and even still outspeeding base 70 +speed natures like breloom even after the scarf is gone!

Ability: pretty straight forward, fur coat doubles the mons defense permanently, and with the full defensive investment, gives it effectively a whopping 169 base defense, higher than toxapex, actually surpassing deoxys-defense levels of walling.

EV's: standard walling EV's, boosting the stats you need and not taking away from anything you really need. Impish nature, more defense, you have no special moves so thats not losing any sleep.

Moves:
Foul play: STAB foul play putting persians horrible attack stat aside in exchange for using the enemies attack against it is perfect for this mon, and its STAB. Who doesnt like STAB?
Parting Shot: This move puts the opponent at -1 in attack and special attack while forcing persian to switch out, getting it out of danger and crippling offensive threats, whicle switching into something that can take the hit better.
Switcheroo: This is trick, just renamed for those who have never seen this move and never see it used (more mons know trick than switcheroo) which you will use to "trick" your scarf onto opposing walls, locking them into 1 move and crippling them from being able to do their job disrupting
Toxic: Its toxic. Need I say much else? Hypnosis is perfectly acceptable in this slot as well but i feel toxic works on the balance breaking a bit better.

So some clear weaknesses for alolan-persian would be: Taunt, special attackers, toxic. But theres a problem with all of these weaknesses:
Mega-sableye blocks all of them. (except again, fairies, but we have 4 other mons for that dont we?)


Persian also sports such a ridiculous level of defense that some of the hardest hitting physical threats in the game cannot OHKO this cat: (and i will be adding banned and unreleased mons to this list for show)

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 166-196 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO (Foul play: 0 Atk Persian-Alola Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO)

+2 252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 248-292 (74.4 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (foul play: +2 0 Atk Persian-Alola Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 315-372 (121.1 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO)

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 273-322 (81.9 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (parting shot out as foul play only does 20%~)

252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola in Grassy Terrain: 238-281 (71.4 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery (parting shot, superpower and megahorn do less damage)

252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 198-233 (59.4 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (foul play: 0 Atk Persian-Alola Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, and youre faster, non-banded is a 3HKO)

252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 280-331 (84 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (parting shot)

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 336-396 (100.9 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (parting shot)

252+ Atk Buzzwole Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 222-262 (66.6 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (parting shot into m-sab)


...i think you get the point.

Alolan-persian has been hidden OP for quite a while, lets bump this thing up! Its AMAZING!
Honestly, gotta say there's pretty much no reason to run Alolan Persian other than for Parting Shot pivots, but that isn't even desirable for Dark teams since just about any common build can get way more out of all of its Pokemon than it can with Alolan Persian. As for what it can check with Fur Coat and such, Mandibuzz and Mega Sableye can more than cover all Fighting threats while those two and Tyranitar can manage Victini, while all threee of these Pokemon can also maintain their important roles in a Dark team, whether it's hazard removal, foul play coverage, statusing, setting hazards, etc. Additionally, they all carry STAB options that can be helpful for Dark in managing a larger amount of types, rather than having limited attack options, abysmal attacking capabilities, and a focus on purely pivoting into another mon most of the time. A lot of the "guaranteed parting shot" calcs basically makes Alolan Persian even more noticable useless, because it literally can only switch out on most threats to Dark teams and can't do anything productive on its own, while the 3 aforementioned Pokemon have great opportunities to cover many other options. Plus, some of your calcs aren't relevant in the metagame so that doesn't help Alolan Persian's case. If anything, I would be perfectly fine with seeing it drop from C->D because it's not an option that Dark wants to utilize.
 
Two Grass Pokemon that I believe should be ranked.

First, Shaymin should at least be B rank. First of all, it's a legal legendary, but Shaymin has good defenses and a good special movepool.
My set for it is this:

Shaymin @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Earth Power
- Seed Flare
- Synthesis

This set gives it good coverage, and has worked well for me. Air Slash takes care of Bug types, Earth Power checks Fire and Poison types, and Seed Flare is STAB. The only weaknesses left are Ice and Flying types, and both take 25% from Stealth Rock.

Second, Cacturne should deserve a C rank at least, because while it is not the objectively best Pokemon, it can, in certain sets, KO the Pokemon that KO'ed the suicide lead (i.e. Ferrothorn).
My set is this:

Cacturne @ Focus Sash
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Drain Punch
- Seed Bomb
- Spiky Shield

Spiky Shield lets any Toxic damage from Ferrothorn run down, while Sucker Punch deals that last bit of damage. The other moves are for coverage.

So, I'm thinking we should rank these two unranked Pokemon. Thanks.
 
Two Grass Pokemon that I believe should be ranked.

First, Shaymin should at least be B rank. First of all, it's a legal legendary, but Shaymin has good defenses and a good special movepool.
My set for it is this:

Shaymin @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Earth Power
- Seed Flare
- Synthesis

This set gives it good coverage, and has worked well for me. Air Slash takes care of Bug types, Earth Power checks Fire and Poison types, and Seed Flare is STAB. The only weaknesses left are Ice and Flying types, and both take 25% from Stealth Rock.

Second, Cacturne should deserve a C rank at least, because while it is not the objectively best Pokemon, it can, in certain sets, KO the Pokemon that KO'ed the suicide lead (i.e. Ferrothorn).
My set is this:

Cacturne @ Focus Sash
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Drain Punch
- Seed Bomb
- Spiky Shield

Spiky Shield lets any Toxic damage from Ferrothorn run down, while Sucker Punch deals that last bit of damage. The other moves are for coverage.

So, I'm thinking we should rank these two unranked Pokemon. Thanks.
The thing I find with shaymin is I don't see what it brings to grass the Celebi doesnt already, offensively celebi is generally better due to its secondary Stab access to nasty plot allowing for it to hit harder, the only difference i see is air slash and a higher base power grass stab. Not to mention the set you've posted would struggle to check many key bugs such as Mega-Pinsir, Scarfcross, Scizor etc. To put it plainly other mons do a better job than Shaymin at chekcing the types you mentioned, thus it should remain unranked in my opinion.
 


Palossand D --> C - Hello, everyone! I'm posting here on behalf of the largely overlooked and frowned upon often dismissed pokemon, Palossand. In my experience as a ghost main, I've observed that despite some of it's obvious downfalls, such as getting ohko'd by a Zard-Y fireblast in the sun, it actually does have some legitimate uses and can play both a defensive tank, offensive tank, and even a surprise set-up mon. The defensive bulk that it has makes it a very effective tank along with being able to deliver shocking counters that can put holes in Mono-teams such as fire and water. Below I have displayed a couple sets that I have had the most success with along with how I used them on my ghost teams.

Weakness Policy

Palossand @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Water Compaction
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shore Up
- Giga Drain
- Earth Power
- Amnesia

This set is by FAR my favorite. However, in contrast to its below counter-part, it does take a decent amount of skill and incredible timing to use. Switching this mon in to take a hit is NOT a good idea even though it more than likely can bulk it out. The best way this set can be used is by taking your opponent by surprise. Here is an example.

-Gyarados has used Waterfall on Sableye and KO'd it.
-I switch into Palossand and select the move Amneisia, knowing that more than likely my opponent will switch in to, say, Keldeo avoid boosting my defense by activating Water -Compaction.
-On switch in, I instantly select Giga Drain because any sane individual would suspect a Hydro Pump to be incoming.
-Opponent selects Hydro on his scarfed Keldeo and...
- 252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Palossand: 228-270 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- +2 0 SpA Palossand Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 236-278 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-Palossand effectively has countered Keldeo because by the use of Giga, it is able to 2HKO and stay alive. Even if something switches in on Palo, it still gets to knock a hole in it with Giga Drain or continue on to use Shore up.


Defensive Tank
Palossand @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Compaction
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Shore Up
- Protect
- Earth Power

This set is purely for defense as a primary or secondary defensive stall/tank mon. Toxic is great for any mon you need your opponent to switch out. In conjunction with protect and shore up, it can bulk out almost any physical attacker.

However, you should never, under any circumstances, switch this in on a mon that has strong neutral or super effective coverage against Palossand which is why I am not fighting for its rank to be higher. I completely understand that it's purpose is limited and it is far from a staple, however, I do not think it deserves low rank it has.

~Thank you for reading!!~

-Jake
 
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Palossand D --> C - Hello, everyone! I'm posting here on behalf of the largely overlooked and frowned upon often dismissed pokemon, Palossand. In my experience as a ghost main, I've observed that despite some of it's obvious downfalls, such as getting ohko'd by a Zard-Y fireblast in the sun, it actually does have some legitimate uses and can play both a defensive tank, offensive tank, and even a surprise set-up mon. The defensive bulk that it has makes it a very effective tank along with being able to deliver shocking counters that can put holes in Mono-teams such as fire and water. Below I have displayed a couple sets that I have had the most success with along with how I used them on my ghost teams.

Weakness Policy

Palossand @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Water Compaction
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shore Up
- Giga Drain
- Earth Power
- Amnesia

This set is by FAR my favorite. However, in contrast to its below counter-part, it does take a decent amount of skill and incredible timing to use. Switching this mon in to take a hit is NOT a good idea even though it more than likely can bulk it out. The best way this set can be used is by taking your opponent by surprise. Here is an example.

-Gyarados has used Waterfall on Sableye and KO'd it.
-I switch into Palossand and select the move Amneisia, knowing that more than likely my opponent will switch in to, say, Keldeo avoid boosting my defense by activating Water -Compaction.
-On switch in, I instantly select Giga Drain because any sane individual would suspect a Hydro Pump to be incoming.
-Opponent selects Hydro on his scarfed Keldeo and...
- 252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Palossand: 228-270 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- +2 0 SpA Palossand Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 236-278 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-Palossand effectively has countered Keldeo because by the use of Giga, it is able to 2HKO and stay alive. Even if something switches in on Palo, it still gets to knock a hole in it with Giga Drain or continue on to use Shore up.


Defensive Tank
Palossand @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Compaction
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Shore Up
- Protect
- Earth Power

This set is purely for defense as a primary or secondary defensive stall/tank mon. Toxic is great for any mon you need your opponent to switch out. In conjunction with protect and shore up, it can bulk out almost any physical attacker.

However, you should never, under any circumstances, switch this in on a mon that has strong neutral or super effective coverage against Palossand.
Hi, welcome to smogon/monotype! Palossand is pretty bad because of how unnecessary it is on ghost (there are simply too many options that you pass up - if you want an electric immunity (the only reason i can think of for using this sandcastle) just use alolan marowak which basically outclasses it outside of reliable recovery) and the example you posted is quite flawed. If it was mega gyarados, it would just crunch (it probably doesnt ko but +2 giga likely doesn't do enough or heal enough - can't calc bc mobile.) if it was regular gyarados, it would just supersonic skystrike and do a ton without activating wp. If it's keldeo vs palossand, you should probably just go to your jellicent (which you should be using). Not to mention that amnesia/wp palossand is pretty terrible.

edited out the last part bc it was wrong
 
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Hi, welcome to smogon/monotype! Palossand is pretty bad because of how unnecessary it is on ghost (there are simply too many options that you pass up - if you want an electric immunity (the only reason i can think of for using this sandcastle) just use alolan marowak which basically outclasses it outside of reliable recovery) and the example you posted is quite flawed. If it was mega gyarados, it would just crunch (it probably doesnt ko but +2 giga likely doesn't do enough or heal enough - can't calc bc mobile.) if it was regular gyarados, it would just supersonic skystrike and do a ton without activating wp. If it's keldeo vs palossand, you should probably just go to your jellicent (which you should be using). Not to mention that amnesia/wp palossand is pretty terrible. As if this couldn't be worse, on page 4 it says that c/d rank nominations aren't open yet.
while i agree palossand is unnecessary on ghost, post #112 in this thread does allow for discussion of all ranks, not just S, A and B ;)
 


Palossand D --> C - Hello, everyone! I'm posting here on behalf of the largely overlooked and frowned upon often dismissed pokemon, Palossand. In my experience as a ghost main, I've observed that despite some of it's obvious downfalls, such as getting ohko'd by a Zard-Y fireblast in the sun, it actually does have some legitimate uses and can play both a defensive tank, offensive tank, and even a surprise set-up mon. The defensive bulk that it has makes it a very effective tank along with being able to deliver shocking counters that can put holes in Mono-teams such as fire and water. Below I have displayed a couple sets that I have had the most success with along with how I used them on my ghost teams.
Weakness Policy

Palossand @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Water Compaction
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shore Up
- Giga Drain
- Earth Power
- Amnesia

This set is by FAR my favorite. However, in contrast to its below counter-part, it does take a decent amount of skill and incredible timing to use. Switching this mon in to take a hit is NOT a good idea even though it more than likely can bulk it out. The best way this set can be used is by taking your opponent by surprise. Here is an example.

-Gyarados has used Waterfall on Sableye and KO'd it.
-I switch into Palossand and select the move Amneisia, knowing that more than likely my opponent will switch in to, say, Keldeo avoid boosting my defense by activating Water -Compaction.
-On switch in, I instantly select Giga Drain because any sane individual would suspect a Hydro Pump to be incoming.
-Opponent selects Hydro on his scarfed Keldeo and...
- 252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Palossand: 228-270 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- +2 0 SpA Palossand Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 236-278 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-Palossand effectively has countered Keldeo because by the use of Giga, it is able to 2HKO and stay alive. Even if something switches in on Palo, it still gets to knock a hole in it with Giga Drain or continue on to use Shore up.


Defensive Tank
Palossand @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Compaction
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Shore Up
- Protect
- Earth Power

This set is purely for defense as a primary or secondary defensive stall/tank mon. Toxic is great for any mon you need your opponent to switch out. In conjunction with protect and shore up, it can bulk out almost any physical attacker.

However, you should never, under any circumstances, switch this in on a mon that has strong neutral or super effective coverage against Palossand which is why I am not fighting for its rank to be higher. I completely understand that it's purpose is limited and it is far from a staple, however, I do not think it deserves low rank it has.

~Thank you for reading!!~

-Jake
JakeBevs, Pallosand may seem like a good ghost type pokemon but in reality, it is outclassed. If you would like a defensive ghost pokemon, you have Gourgeist, Mega Sableye, or even Cofagrigus. Pallosand is also setup bait to things like Scizor, since Scizor cannot be poisoned. Gourgeist could burn Scizor, even hit it hard with foul play after a few boosts.
Pallosand should stay at D

Anyway, I nominate

Golurk (Ghost)
B --> A

I know Marowak has put a lot of competition on Golurk and Chandelure, but what I really like about Golurk that got it on my team was that it can hold items, guaranteeing rocks. I know that people tend to use Marowak over Golurk because of its sheer wallbreaking power, and its defensive typing, but I like how Golurk can invest in speed and hit Dark types super effectively, getting rid of threats like Greninja, Tyranitar, Mega Sharpedo, and Mega Gyarados. Marowak is forced to switch out of dark moves, or just dies to them completely, knock off getting rid of its thick club even if it does survive. One of the things that concern me is that SubDance variants of Mega Gyarados destroy ghost teams, being able to avoid status through sub and attacking from there. Golurk can live a hit on its sash and finish it off, which Marowak cannot do. Bisharp also threatens ghost teams as well, being able to break stall with a powerful knock off after multiple boosts.

Golurk @ Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SpDef
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
A standard set that works

Oh, and I'm still not done :T

this boi
Gengar (Ghost)
A --> S

welp. This thing was S ranked last gen, and I feel like it still should be S ranked this gen.
First of all, this thing removes toxic spikes. That gives things like Jellicent and Mega Sableye a chance to do their jobs. And not to mention, the life orb sets hit hard, and has very few switchins. What I love about this 'mon is that when either Marowak or Golurk sets up stealth rocks, they are unmovable due to rapid spin. The two types, Fire and Ice, rely on rapid spin to clear hazards. But they can't rapid spin when your whole team is filled with ghost types. So basically, Gengar can clean after you get your hazards up, with its life orb boosted attacks.

Also, Gengar sits at an amazing speed tier of 110 base speed, enough to outspeed Zard X and Y, Bisharp, Sharpedo, Volcarona, and the musketeers. That means Gengar hits fast, and hard. Not to mention it contains a more than usable move pool containing Thunderbolt, Sludge Wave, Shadow Ball, Taunt, Destiny Bond, and Focus Blast. It brings power and speed to the Ghost metagame, so I feel like it should be S ranked on ghost.

Gengar @ Life Orb
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Wave
- Shadow Ball
- Destiny Bond

Destiny Bond for sucker punch and protect mindgames yk


one more

Doublade (Ghost)
A --> B

I feel like the metagame has grown too old for this 'mon, and that it should be moved down to B. I know, that this thing gets a ton of defense after eviolite's effects, but I'm concerned about how slow it is and how dependent it is on shadow sneak to get kills. Doublade isn't durable enough for this metagame. Almost every type has a natural Doublade counter. There are just too many things that whittle it down, and downright OHKO it. Threats such as Tapu Koko, Hydreigon, Greninja, and Kingdra all hit its on its special side, and forces a switch. Doublade also gets easily walled by common checks such as Skarmory, Mandibuzz, Toxapex, Mega Sableye, and Rotom - Wash which are all very common pokemon in their respective types. Toxapex can reset stat boosts, Skarmory can whirlwind its stat boosts out, Mandibuzz takes advantage of Foul Play, Mega Sableye and Rotom - Wash threaten Doublade with a burn. More B ranked ghosts have a greater effect on the metagame than this mon, such as Chandelure, Gourgeist, Golurk, Hoopa, and Dhelmise all do its job better than this thing. It just doesn't fit as an A ranked ghost anymore.

- that one shitty ghost main
 
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this boi
Gengar (Ghost)
A --> S

welp. This thing was S ranked last gen, and I feel like it still should be S ranked this gen.
First of all, this thing removes toxic spikes. That gives things like Jellicent and Mega Sableye a chance to do their jobs. And not to mention, the life orb sets hit hard, and has very few switchins. What I love about this 'mon is that when either Marowak or Golurk sets up stealth rocks, they are unmovable due to rapid spin. The two types, Fire and Ice, rely on rapid spin to clear hazards. But they can't rapid spin when your whole team is filled with ghost types. So basically, Gengar can clean after you get your hazards up, with its life orb boosted attacks.

Also, Gengar sits at an amazing speed tier of 110 base speed, enough to outspeed Zard X and Y, Bisharp, Sharpedo, Volcarona, and the musketeers. That means Gengar hits fast, and hard. Not to mention it contains a more than usable move pool containing Thunderbolt, Sludge Wave, Shadow Ball, Taunt, Destiny Bond, and Focus Blast. It brings power and speed to the Ghost metagame, so I feel like it should be S ranked on ghost.
Gengar @ Life Orb
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Wave
- Shadow Ball
- Destiny Bond

Destiny Bond for sucker punch and protect mindgames yk




Doublade (Ghost)
A --> B

I feel like the metagame has grown too old for this 'mon, and that it should be moved down to B. I know, that this thing gets a ton of defense after eviolite's effects, but I'm concerned about how slow it is and how dependent it is on shadow sneak to get kills. Doublade isn't durable enough for this metagame. Almost every type has a natural Doublade counter. There are just too many things that whittle it down, and downright OHKO it. Threats such as Tapu Koko, Hydreigon, Greninja, and Kingdra all hit its on its special side, and forces a switch. Doublade also gets easily walled by common checks such as Skarmory, Mandibuzz, Toxapex, Mega Sableye, and Rotom - Wash which are all very common pokemon in their respective types. Toxapex can reset stat boosts, Skarmory can whirlwind its stat boosts out, Mandibuzz takes advantage of Foul Play, Mega Sableye and Rotom - Wash threaten Doublade with a burn. More B ranked ghosts have a greater effect on the metagame than this mon, such as Chandelure, Gourgeist, Golurk, Hoopa, and Dhelmise all do its job better than this thing. It just doesn't fit as an A ranked ghost anymore.

- that one shitty ghost main
I appreciate the constructive criticism! Now I'd like to give some of my own.

Gengar to S

I am in FULL support of this. Through the grueling taxing process of trial and error, I have come to the definite conclusion that Gengar is a viable, or even a staple, member of almost any ghost team. It is, by far, the most versatile attacker that ghost has and it's numerous sets (Sash, specs, scarf, and of course LO) give it a tremendous amount of viability and usability.


Doublade to B

I am also in favor of this re-ranking. There are B-rank mons that outclass and add more to the meta than doublade does such as the ones my fellow ghost-main listed above. Dhelmise counters toxapex , and Chandelure, as a scarfer or a spec'er (<--- bad terminology), can deal with some difficult mons with much more leisure such as Marowak-A, Swampert, and that one satanic irritable mon, Magearna.

~~~~
Here are some calcs to show Chand's versatility. It is both faster than Doublade and can hit a wider variety of mons relatively hard.
~~~~

- 252 SpA Chandelure Energy Ball vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 468-552 (118.7 - 140.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-
-252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marowak-Alola: 338-402 (129.5 - 154%) -- guaranteed OHKO or 252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Marowak-Alola: 258-306 (79.8 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 344-408 (114.2 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO or 252 SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 230-272 (63.3 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Obviously, if you're not lacking a physical attacker, Chandelure is the most obvious pick over Doublade for a spot on a given ghost team. It close's weakness gaps and allows the battler to be more offense rather than the stereotypical ghost-stall playstyle.

- The other shittier ghost main
 
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Gourgeist-Super B ---> A
HP-65/Atk-90/Def-122/SpA-58/SpD-75/Spe-84

Hello again, everyone! This will be the last viability suggestion I'll have for a bit, I think. So I am going to make this one as convincing as humanly possible even though I believe Gourgeist should have had A-rank in the first place.

To begin, Gourgeist is, without a doubt, the BEST usable physically defensive mon for the Ghost typing. It's intimidating defense stat coupled with will-o wisp is enough to nullify literally every physical attacker in Monotype that isn't fire. Its base attack stat also allows it to blow huge holes in defensive mons such as Swampert and Quagsire while also being able to regain its health via the Leftie-Leech combo.
In addition to being a great defensive-crippler, Gourgeist also serves as a stellar teammate to a variety of great mons in the type including, but certainly not limited to: Gengar, Mimikyu and especially Jellicent and Sableye-M. It is able to easily take any special/physical grass attack that would harm Jellicent and force a switch, which one can predict. Also, if a strong Dark physical attacker that you are unsure about is switched in, Mega Sableye is able to switch in, recover, and then set up.

Below I have listed both a replay and some calcs of what Gourgeist is capable of along with the best set to use with it!

Replay- Ghost vs. Grass

- 4 Atk Gourgeist-Super Seed Bomb vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 268-324 (66.8 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 4 Atk Gourgeist-Super Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 276-328 (70 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 151-178 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- 240+ Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 186-222 (49.7 - 59.3%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (After Wisp and Seed, Muk is rendered useless)
- 252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 96-113 (25.6 - 30.2%) -- 0.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery ( This was thrown in here because I wanted to simulate a Gourgeist switch in for Jellicent. )

Thanks for reading!

-Jake


 

Vid

Our life is what our thoughts make it
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Gourgeist-Super B ---> A
HP-65/Atk-90/Def-122/SpA-58/SpD-75/Spe-84

Hello again, everyone! This will be the last viability suggestion I'll have for a bit, I think. So I am going to make this one as convincing as humanly possible even though I believe Gourgeist should have had A-rank in the first place.

To begin, Gourgeist is, without a doubt, the BEST usable physically defensive mon for the Ghost typing. It's intimidating defense stat coupled with will-o wisp is enough to nullify literally every physical attacker in Monotype that isn't fire. Its base attack stat also allows it to blow huge holes in defensive mons such as Swampert and Quagsire while also being able to regain its health via the Leftie-Leech combo.
In addition to being a great defensive-crippler, Gourgeist also serves as a stellar teammate to a variety of great mons in the type including, but certainly not limited to: Gengar, Mimikyu and especially Jellicent and Sableye-M. It is able to easily take any special/physical grass attack that would harm Jellicent and force a switch, which one can predict. Also, if a strong Dark physical attacker that you are unsure about is switched in, Mega Sableye is able to switch in, recover, and then set up.

Below I have listed both a replay and some calcs of what Gourgeist is capable of along with the best set to use with it!

Replay- Ghost vs. Grass

- 4 Atk Gourgeist-Super Seed Bomb vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 268-324 (66.8 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 4 Atk Gourgeist-Super Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 276-328 (70 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 151-178 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- 240+ Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 186-222 (49.7 - 59.3%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (After Wisp and Seed, Muk is rendered useless)
- 252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 96-113 (25.6 - 30.2%) -- 0.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery ( This was thrown in here because I wanted to simulate a Gourgeist switch in for Jellicent. )

Thanks for reading!

-Jake
Nothing personal or anything, but this nomination is flawed at best.
To begin, Gourgeist is, without a doubt, the BEST usable physically defensive mon for the Ghost typing. It's intimidating defense stat coupled with will-o wisp is enough to nullify literally every physical attacker in Monotype that isn't fire.
Mega Sableye does the exact same thing and less of a liability in certain matchups than Gourgeist is, so this statement is incorrect
Its base attack stat also allows it to blow huge holes in defensive mons such as Swampert and Quagsire while also being able to regain its health via the Leftie-Leech combo.
It's a defensive Pokemon mentionig it's attack stat is pointless. Leech Seed is useful, but it doesn't warrant using Gourgeist on ghost over many other options.
In addition to being a great defensive-crippler, Gourgeist also serves as a stellar teammate to a variety of great mons in the type including, but certainly not limited to: Gengar, Mimikyu and especially Jellicent and Sableye-M. It is able to easily take any special/physical grass attack that would harm Jellicent and force a switch, which one can predict. Also, if a strong Dark physical attacker that you are unsure about is switched in, Mega Sableye is able to switch in, recover, and then set up.
Doesn't Mega Sableye support Jellicent just as good if not better than Gourgeist. The aspect seems to be saying that Gourgeist needs lots of support to function. As for the replay ghost vs grass is heavily in Ghost's favor with Pokemon such as Gengar, Mega Sableye, and Marowak-Alola, so the replay is kind of pointless and seems to be there just to make Gourgeist look better.
- 4 Atk Gourgeist-Super Seed Bomb vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 268-324 (66.8 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 4 Atk Gourgeist-Super Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 276-328 (70 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Fair point, but can't any random Ghost Pokemon namely Chandelure or even Gengar and do the same thing.
- 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 151-178 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Doesn't Doublade take on Kyurem-B much better without having to worry about Ice Beam.
- 240+ Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 186-222 (49.7 - 59.3%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (After Wisp and Seed, Muk is rendered useless)
Doesn't Mega Sableye do the exact same thing without taking a heavy hit
- 252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 96-113 (25.6 - 30.2%) -- 0.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery ( This was thrown in here because I wanted to simulate a Gourgeist switch in for Jellicent. )
Calcs such as these should never be used in arguments because it heavily relies on prediction.
I can see why you'd think Gourgeist deserves A Rank but it is ultimately outclassed defensively by Mega Sableye in almost every single way.
Sorry for somewhat short post didn't have much time
Also, update should be coming soon. I've been very busy as of late
 

Gourgeist-Super B ---> A
HP-65/Atk-90/Def-122/SpA-58/SpD-75/Spe-84

Hello again, everyone! This will be the last viability suggestion I'll have for a bit, I think. So I am going to make this one as convincing as humanly possible even though I believe Gourgeist should have had A-rank in the first place.

To begin, Gourgeist is, without a doubt, the BEST usable physically defensive mon for the Ghost typing. It's intimidating defense stat coupled with will-o wisp is enough to nullify literally every physical attacker in Monotype that isn't fire. Its base attack stat also allows it to blow huge holes in defensive mons such as Swampert and Quagsire while also being able to regain its health via the Leftie-Leech combo.
In addition to being a great defensive-crippler, Gourgeist also serves as a stellar teammate to a variety of great mons in the type including, but certainly not limited to: Gengar, Mimikyu and especially Jellicent and Sableye-M. It is able to easily take any special/physical grass attack that would harm Jellicent and force a switch, which one can predict. Also, if a strong Dark physical attacker that you are unsure about is switched in, Mega Sableye is able to switch in, recover, and then set up.

Below I have listed both a replay and some calcs of what Gourgeist is capable of along with the best set to use with it!

Replay- Ghost vs. Grass

- 4 Atk Gourgeist-Super Seed Bomb vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 268-324 (66.8 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 4 Atk Gourgeist-Super Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 276-328 (70 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 151-178 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- 240+ Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 186-222 (49.7 - 59.3%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (After Wisp and Seed, Muk is rendered useless)
- 252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 96-113 (25.6 - 30.2%) -- 0.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery ( This was thrown in here because I wanted to simulate a Gourgeist switch in for Jellicent. )

Thanks for reading!

-Jake
Nothing personal or anything, but this nomination is flawed at best. Mega Sableye does the exact same thing and less of a liability in certain matchups than Gourgeist is, so this statement is incorrect It's a defensive Pokemon mentionig it's attack stat is pointless. Leech Seed is useful, but it doesn't warrant using Gourgeist on ghost over many other options. Doesn't Mega Sableye support Jellicent just as good if not better than Gourgeist. The aspect seems to be saying that Gourgeist needs lots of support to function. As for the replay ghost vs grass is heavily in Ghost's favor with Pokemon such as Gengar, Mega Sableye, and Marowak-Alola, so the replay is kind of pointless and seems to be there just to make Gourgeist look better. Fair point, but can't any random Ghost Pokemon namely Chandelure or even Gengar and do the same thing.Doesn't Doublade take on Kyurem-B much better without having to worry about Ice Beam.Doesn't Mega Sableye do the exact same thing without taking a heavy hitCalcs such as these should never be used in arguments because it heavily relies on prediction.
I can see why you'd think Gourgeist deserves A Rank but it is ultimately outclassed defensively by Mega Sableye in almost every single way.
Sorry for somewhat short post didn't have much time
Also, update should be coming soon. I've been very busy as of late
isnt that why mega sableye is S ranked



Not saying I support the move but, Gourgeist is one of the only things on ghost to take a band eq from excadrill etc.

If you run Foul Play on Gourgeist Mega Sableye can open up to CM sets instead of the Koff FP set. The thing is, Gourgeist is better as a physical tank because Mega Sableye does not have the lefties bonus, causing it to be worn down quickly.
Gourgeist's 100 base attack could be used to fire off seed bombs.
When taking hits from Muk - Alola, you cannot risk the chance of Mega Sableye getting poisoned. A poisoned Mega Sableye is worn down easily and defeated easily because of the poison.
 
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Two Grass Pokemon that I believe should be ranked.

First, Shaymin should at least be B rank. First of all, it's a legal legendary, but Shaymin has good defenses and a good special movepool.
My set for it is this:

Shaymin @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Earth Power
- Seed Flare
- Synthesis

This set gives it good coverage, and has worked well for me. Air Slash takes care of Bug types, Earth Power checks Fire and Poison types, and Seed Flare is STAB. The only weaknesses left are Ice and Flying types, and both take 25% from Stealth Rock.

Second, Cacturne should deserve a C rank at least, because while it is not the objectively best Pokemon, it can, in certain sets, KO the Pokemon that KO'ed the suicide lead (i.e. Ferrothorn).
My set is this:

Cacturne @ Focus Sash
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Drain Punch
- Seed Bomb
- Spiky Shield

Spiky Shield lets any Toxic damage from Ferrothorn run down, while Sucker Punch deals that last bit of damage. The other moves are for coverage.

So, I'm thinking we should rank these two unranked Pokemon. Thanks.
Wait, Ferrothorn is a suicide lead?

This is a pretty poor reasoning for Cacturne to be ranked tbh. You talk about Spiky Shield helping where down pokemon who've been toxic'd but how does Cacturne do this better than Grass's other defensive powerhouses like Mega-Venusaur or Cradily? Cacturne is extremely frail and has very exploitable weaknesses, I don't know how you'd stall with it. It really offers nothing to grass besides STAB sucker punch and I think even shiftry does that better.

I think Cacturne should remain unranked.
 
Gourgeist has a better physical bulk than M-sableye, especially if he's running the mixed set used with Knock off and Foul Play. He has more weakness than M-sableye but also brings more resistance to the table thanks to his grass typing. He also faces better competition against M-Sableye weakness : Bulu, Koko and Fini all switch out in front of Sableye, except the rare Brave bird on Koko. He can't obviously replace him, but using a defensive core of Gourgeist, Jellicent and M-Sableye is a staple on ghost team right now. Why is Jelli A and not Geist?

Leech Seed also brings lots of utility for the team (Only way for A-Marowak to gain health, and since most of them don't learn Rock Head it's really useful).
He's ghost best option against Ground Team. Soon will be ghost only answer for M-Lop' but it's not a viable arguement right now for it to go A.

Doesn't Doublade take on Kyurem-B much better without having to worry about Ice Beam.
This is true but doublade has to worry about HP fire or Earth Power and can't Frisk Kyu-B item, identifying if this is Scarf or not.

Also I don't know the definition of an A mon since it's not written in the description (unless I didn't see it), but Gourgeist is more viable on your ghost team than most if not all of the mon that are in B rank right now.

The only exception I see are Chandelure (and his set should be scarf most of the time, which is highly outclassed by Gengar) and Golurk (who could be A rank too..).
He outclasses decidueye defensively (why would you use defog on a team that is immune to rapid spin?) who can't learn Will'o wisp and Leech seed. And Dhelmise is designed for offensive purpose. Rapid Spin is the only thing Dhelmise brings for Ghost team over Gourgeist.

Quite frankly, I'm surprised that Doublade is A rank and not Gourgeist. A ground resist on a ghost team, especially with Gengar loss of levitate and the use of A-Marowak should give him more viability than last gen. I think he's worth A rank, but if you guy don't think so you should consider making him at least B+. IMO of course ;).
 
Yes, Gengar and Chadelure can both knock out Quag and Swamp, however this takes away another coverage move that they could potentially use such as Tbolt or D-Gleam on Geng for example. Why not just have Gourgeist on your team and counter those mons completely along with adding lastibilty to your squad?

Gourgeist paired with Jellicent and Mega Sable is the BEST defensive core ghost has at the moment. There is absolutely no disputing that at all and I think any ghost user will support that statement.
 
Gourgeist has a better physical bulk than M-sableye, especially if he's running the mixed set used with Knock off and Foul Play. He has more weakness than M-sableye but also brings more resistance to the table thanks to his grass typing. He also faces better competition against M-Sableye weakness : Bulu, Koko and Fini all switch out in front of Sableye, except the rare Brave bird on Koko. He can't obviously replace him, but using a defensive core of Gourgeist, Jellicent and M-Sableye is a staple on ghost team right now. Why is Jelli A and not Geist?
I wouldn't really try to compare Gourgeist bulk with Mega Sableye because Mega Sableye is your main wincon and Calm Mind sweeper compared to a passive mon like Gourgeist, sure Gourgeist has more physical bulk than Mega Sableye but you I'm sure you know that Mega Sableye has more benefits going for it. Also, I wouldn't even take any chance of using Gourgeist against Tapu Koko as my reliable "check" to it. Why use Gourgeist when you have Alolan Marowak as a better counter to Tapu Koko because of Lightning Rod immunity I think you've forgotten that Tapu Koko also runs Hidden Power Ice and Dazzling Gleam, both of which can 2HKO Gourgeist, both of which has a fair chance to 2HKO (2HKO if Modest Specs) and Alolan Marowak resist both attacks.

He can't obviously replace him, but using a defensive core of Gourgeist, Jellicent and M-Sableye is a staple on ghost team right now. Why is Jelli A and not Geist?
That's not completely true and I really think you're giving Gourgeist too much praise in it being a "staple." We're not branching out into different mons on why this or that is ranked so please stay on Gourgeist and these two provide different roles for Ghost teams anyway. It's a discussion on Gourgeist not Jellicent.

Leech Seed also brings lots of utility for the team (Only way for A-Marowak to gain health, and since most of them don't learn Rock Head it's really useful).
He's ghost best option against Ground Team. Soon will be ghost only answer for M-Lop' but it's not a viable arguement right now for it to go A.
Gourgeist still need to face dealing with Mamoswine, Poison Heal Gliscor with Swords Dance, Mega Garchomp Fire Blast, special attackers such as Nidoking and Landorus.

This is true but doublade has to worry about HP fire or Earth Power and can't Frisk Kyu-B item, identifying if this is Scarf or not.
Kyurem-B can Ice Beam it and Frisk only works if Gourgeist is sent out on the turn it does or you decided to switch-in on it after a fainted teammate.

Quite frankly, I'm surprised that Doublade is A rank and not Gourgeist.
They perform different roles, I don't see why you would ever try and compare these two.

Why not just have Gourgeist on your team and counter those mons completely along with adding lastibilty to your squad?Gourgeist paired with Jellicent and Mega Sable is the BEST defensive core ghost has at the moment. There is absolutely no disputing that at all and I think any ghost user will support that statement.
That's an overstatement, I wouldn't even say "best" defensive core on Ghost. Okay sure Gourgeist helps some in Ground matchups but again, you guys are giving it too much praise on it instead of looking at the flaws it possess.

Gourgeist's offenses are average at best, which makes it pretty passive in situations anyway, along with being vulnerable to Taunt bait and Substitute users can just set up on it, it's special defensive stat is pretty weak, and it can be setup fodder as well.

Gourgeist struggles in several matchups and its Grass typing also makes it vulnerable in them as well. The replay a page ago isn't that good and it doesn't convince me enough that Gourgeist does excellent against Grass teams anyway.

Mega Sableye is a better Will-O-Wisp user than it and can stall out with Recover better compared to Gourgeist that only has what, 8 PP in Synthesis and gets tampered with against other weather teams and they're pretty common.

Just a few to name out here.

When taking hits from Muk - Alola, you cannot risk the chance of Mega Sableye getting poisoned. A poisoned Mega Sableye is worn down easily and defeated easily because of the poison.
This here bothers me too, because I don't see any difference in Gourgeist vs Alolan Muk. It gets poisoned and worn down easily too so this argument isn't good either. Gourgeist doesn't appreciate being poisoned in general.


If you guys want to know why another Pokemon is ranked (such as bringing up Jellicent and Doublade) please talk to the viability council instead of derailing it here. It's not a good presentable argument to ask that and it's just moving away from the real topic trying to discuss multiple things at once other than the nomination.
 
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iLlama

Nothing personal, I protect my people
Yes, Gengar and Chadelure can both knock out Quag and Swamp, however this takes away another coverage move that they could potentially use such as Tbolt or D-Gleam on Geng for example. Why not just have Gourgeist on your team and counter those mons completely along with adding lastibilty to your squad?
All Chandelure should carry Energy Ball and Gengar can change 1 move to OHKO both, rather than designating a single Pokemon as a check. Chandelure and Gengar are both better for Ghost teams in general and you aren't losing anything substantial by using either of them. Instead of using up a team-slot for another defensive Pokemon in Gourgeist-S, you can just use standard threats to cover Gourg's niche STAB move option and be an all around offensive threat in more matchups. Also, it would be your team's survivability, because 'lastibilty' isn't a word.
Gourgeist paired with Jellicent and Mega Sable is the BEST defensive core ghost has at the moment. There is absolutely no disputing that at all and I think any ghost user will support that statement.
This statement is kind of misleading. Just because those three Pokemon together form Ghost's best defensive core, does not mean that it's a good defensive core in the metagame. An easy way to see this, is by checking what Gourgeist-S adds to the pre-existing core that a standard Ghost team can't already manage. To both you and GreenGan;

Gourgeist-S has:
  • An Electric-type resist. Dhelmise and Decidueye both have this. Alolan Marowak is immune thanks to Lightning Rod and Golurk has type immunity.
  • A Ground-type resist. Dhelmise "" Decidueye "".
  • A Grass-type STAB. Dhelmise "" Decidueye "".
  • Will-O-Wisp and an 8 PP recovery option. Mega Sableye and Jellicent have Will-O-Wisp and a 16 PP recovery option. Dhelmise has neither and Decidueye has Roost.
  • Foul Play. Mega Sableye has this and, for the most part, is better at using it thanks to its typing.
  • A tad better physical defense than Mega Sableye. Gourgeist-S is weak to Dark, Fire, Flying, Ghost, and Ice while Mega Sableye is only weak to Fairy.
  • Usable ability choices in Frisk and Insomnia, which are mediocre at best. Dhelmise gains a third STAB with Steelworker, Decidueye has Overgrow, Mega Sableye checks status moves and entry hazards with Magic Bounce, and Jellicent has Cursed Body and Water Absorb.
  • Leech Seed.
So, from what I can see, Gourgeist-S's selling point is it has Leech Seed and that's about it. I'm not sure why that warrants a jump to A-Rank.
 

Gourgeist-Super B ---> A
HP-65/Atk-90/Def-122/SpA-58/SpD-75/Spe-84

Hello again, everyone! This will be the last viability suggestion I'll have for a bit, I think. So I am going to make this one as convincing as humanly possible even though I believe Gourgeist should have had A-rank in the first place.

To begin, Gourgeist is, without a doubt, the BEST usable physically defensive mon for the Ghost typing. It's intimidating defense stat coupled with will-o wisp is enough to nullify literally every physical attacker in Monotype that isn't fire. Its base attack stat also allows it to blow huge holes in defensive mons such as Swampert and Quagsire while also being able to regain its health via the Leftie-Leech combo.
In addition to being a great defensive-crippler, Gourgeist also serves as a stellar teammate to a variety of great mons in the type including, but certainly not limited to: Gengar, Mimikyu and especially Jellicent and Sableye-M. It is able to easily take any special/physical grass attack that would harm Jellicent and force a switch, which one can predict. Also, if a strong Dark physical attacker that you are unsure about is switched in, Mega Sableye is able to switch in, recover, and then set up.

Below I have listed both a replay and some calcs of what Gourgeist is capable of along with the best set to use with it!

Replay- Ghost vs. Grass

- 4 Atk Gourgeist-Super Seed Bomb vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 268-324 (66.8 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 4 Atk Gourgeist-Super Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 276-328 (70 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 151-178 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- 240+ Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 186-222 (49.7 - 59.3%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (After Wisp and Seed, Muk is rendered useless)
- 252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 96-113 (25.6 - 30.2%) -- 0.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery ( This was thrown in here because I wanted to simulate a Gourgeist switch in for Jellicent. )

Thanks for reading!

-Jake
Gourgeist-S is definitely a viable Pokemon, but there are solid reasons as to why it can't go higher than B, which others have covered for the most part. The Grass typing is really appreciated on Ghost honestly since it fits a great set of resists in one slot, which relieves some pressure for the Ghost core, which already has a lot of trouble as is. It's also a lot bulkier than Dhelmise and Decidueye, but it doesn't have hazard recovery.

However, I see Gourgeist as something that fills roles that are "nice" but not "necessary". Ghost teams need to be extremely picky with their team slots because the type is just ill-equipped to deal with all the major metagame threats while actually working well. This makes role compression a lot more important on these teams. This is why you see stuff like Mega Sableye, Marowak-A, and Jellicent in the higher ranks; they're all versatile. I don't even need to expand on what Mega Sableye does. Maro-A provides hazards, soft Fire-check, great offensive presence, and Electric immunity. Jellicent is a great blanket check for special attackers, Fire/Water-check, and is an amazing wincon if you use the Acid Armor set (which works well against Dragon and Ground, so it has competition with Gourgeist there). When you compare these roles to what Gourgeist does, it's hard to justify an A-rank for it.

You sorta alluded to this yourself in your post. Mega Sableye already checks physical Dark-types well enough, but having Gourgeist to help check some stuff like Muk-A which can bother Mega Sableye is nice, but not necessary. I don't mean to imply that A-rank Pokemon are necessary, but they're just so much more useful. It primarily serves as a "backup" for other parts of Ghost's defensive core, at least from my perspective. Is it really worth the team slot? Well, that's debatable, but that's why its B-rank.

Basically, what I'm saying is, you're not wrong in saying that Gourgeist has some nice qualities to bring to the table, but you really need to account for the opportunity cost in using it.
 
Gourgeist-S is definitely a viable Pokemon, but there are solid reasons as to why it can't go higher than B, which others have covered for the most part. The Grass typing is really appreciated on Ghost honestly since it fits a great set of resists in one slot, which relieves some pressure for the Ghost core, which already has a lot of trouble as is. It's also a lot bulkier than Dhelmise and Decidueye, but it doesn't have hazard recovery.

However, I see Gourgeist as something that fills roles that are "nice" but not "necessary". Ghost teams need to be extremely picky with their team slots because the type is just ill-equipped to deal with all the major metagame threats while actually working well. This makes role compression a lot more important on these teams. This is why you see stuff like Mega Sableye, Marowak-A, and Jellicent in the higher ranks; they're all versatile. I don't even need to expand on what Mega Sableye does. Maro-A provides hazards, soft Fire-check, great offensive presence, and Electric immunity. Jellicent is a great blanket check for special attackers, Fire/Water-check, and is an amazing wincon if you use the Acid Armor set (which works well against Dragon and Ground, so it has competition with Gourgeist there). When you compare these roles to what Gourgeist does, it's hard to justify an A-rank for it.

You sorta alluded to this yourself in your post. Mega Sableye already checks physical Dark-types well enough, but having Gourgeist to help check some stuff like Muk-A which can bother Mega Sableye is nice, but not necessary. I don't mean to imply that A-rank Pokemon are necessary, but they're just so much more useful. It primarily serves as a "backup" for other parts of Ghost's defensive core, at least from my perspective. Is it really worth the team slot? Well, that's debatable, but that's why its B-rank.

Basically, what I'm saying is, you're not wrong in saying that Gourgeist has some nice qualities to bring to the table, but you really need to account for the opportunity cost in using it.
I completely understand the points you're making here. I also accept where my points have holes in them and now completely agree that Gour should stay at B. Thank you for the constructive criticism.
 
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