Resource Monotype USM Viability Rankings

[Day Healer]

Dugtrio (Ground): A ---> Unranked/D

Lets put, I never understood why Dugtrio was used on monotype in the first place, but i guess it had a niche back there at the start of Gen 7 (screech sets were swag too). Now with the hype gone, there don't exist a reason to use dugtrio anymore:
- Almost not existant bulk? check
- Needs heavy team support of Rapid spin excadrill? check
- Dead weight again certain teams? check
Guess it was fun trap and 2hko chansey with full powered reversal, but monogrounds have plenty of Knock offers to pressure normal monos already, without running a meme mon like Dugtrio. So yeah downgrade it.


STEELIX-MEGA (GROUND): C ---> B

Steelix Mega is a great alternative to Garchomp-Mega for the ground mega. To start, it's the only mon on monoground which isn't 2HKOed by Scarf Tapu bulu Wood Hammer, a big threat to grounds, and can threat it back. Also monofairies struggle again it.
MegaLix also soften the Ice matchup, resisting both weavile and Kyurem-B and even weakening Mamoswine.

General calcs

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 114-135 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
0 Atk Steelix-Mega Gyro Ball (118 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 272-324 (96.7 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Steelix-Mega: 144-171 (40.6 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Steelix-Mega Gyro Ball (138 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 360-426 (92 - 108.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix-Mega: 66-79 (18.6 - 22.3%) -- possible 5HKO
0 Atk Steelix-Mega Gyro Ball (111 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 410-486 (145.9 - 172.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix-Mega: 128-152 (36.1 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Steelix-Mega Gyro Ball (82 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 254-302 (70.3 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Decidueye (Ghost): B ---> D

Like other peps already said in this thread, why it even rosed 2 ranks? Lackluster offensive stats, outclassed like Hazard remover for Dhelmise in both Balance and Trick Room ghost archetypes (in that vein, Dhelmise deserve B rank pretty much instead) and outclassed like Ground resist by both Dhelmise/ Gourgeist. So return this to D.

 

[Harpp]

Dugtrio (Ground): A ---> Unranked/D

Lets put, I never understood why Dugtrio was used on monotype in the first place, but i guess it had a niche back there at the start of Gen 7 (screech sets were swag too). Now with the hype gone, there don't exist a reason to use dugtrio anymore:
- Almost not existant bulk? check
- Needs heavy team support of Rapid spin excadrill? check
- Dead weight again certain teams? check
Guess it was fun trap and 2hko chansey with full powered reversal, but monogrounds have plenty of Knock offers to pressure normal monos already, without running a meme mon like Dugtrio. So yeah downgrade it.


STEELIX-MEGA (GROUND): C ---> B

Steelix Mega is a great alternative to Garchomp-Mega for the ground mega. To start, it's the only mon on monoground which isn't 2HKOed by Scarf Tapu bulu Wood Hammer, a big threat to grounds, and can threat it back. Also monofairies struggle again it.
MegaLix also soften the Ice matchup, resisting both weavile and Kyurem-B and even weakening Mamoswine.

General calcs

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 114-135 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
0 Atk Steelix-Mega Gyro Ball (118 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 272-324 (96.7 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Steelix-Mega: 144-171 (40.6 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Steelix-Mega Gyro Ball (138 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 360-426 (92 - 108.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix-Mega: 66-79 (18.6 - 22.3%) -- possible 5HKO
0 Atk Steelix-Mega Gyro Ball (111 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 410-486 (145.9 - 172.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix-Mega: 128-152 (36.1 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Steelix-Mega Gyro Ball (82 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 254-302 (70.3 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Decidueye (Ghost): B ---> D

Like other peps already said in this thread, why it even rosed 2 ranks? Lackluster offensive stats, outclassed like Hazard remover for Dhelmise in both Balance and Trick Room ghost archetypes (in that vein, Dhelmise deserve B rank pretty much instead) and outclassed like Ground resist by both Dhelmise/ Gourgeist. So return this to D.

Hi there.
I don't agree with your Dugtrio nomination to unranked/D because:

Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 28 HP / 2 Def
- Earthquake
- Reversal
- Sucker Punch
- Sludge Wave

In my opinion it's a good revenge killer and trapper for ground teams that helps them to check threatening Pokemon such as tapu bulu,Chansey,porygon2 ,Greninja,Alolan Raichu ,Celesteela under gravity etc.
All the above mentioned Pokemon are threats to ground team since tapu bulu just spams wood hammer or horn leech punching big holes in the team,Chansey and porygon2 wall a good portion ofthe team,Greninja threatens with ice beam and usually runs scarf set which outspeeds excadrill in sand if you happen to run adamant nature,Alolan Raichu can beat ground in electric terrain and Celesteela is just pain in general.

Dugtrio shouldnt be unranked because it deals/Checks all the mons mentioned above. Dugtrio breaks chansey/Porygon2 with Reversal with certainty since opponent can't switch which allows Landorus or excadrill to have easier time vs normal. The three headed mole also checks/Severely weakens Tapu bulu with sludge wave. Dugtrio also traps and checks Alolan raichu with sucker punch irrespective of whether it's in electric terrain or not. Traps Greninja and takes it out with Earthquake+Sucker punch. As mentioned above also traps and checks Celesteela in gravity so opponent can't stall out gravity turns and save Celesteela.

A Pokemon that is checking so many threats for ground teams shouldn't be unranked/D. Regarding its non existent bulk,the bulk is irrelevant when it performs the role of a revenge killer or trapper and it comes in after something has died or via a free switch(smart doubles too) and it always utilizes focus sash(at least in Monotype). I do agree however that ground teams don't have a reliable hazard remover and so most teams rely on rapid spin support from excadrill.

Calculations

Some important Dugtrio Calculations:
4 SpA Dugtrio Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 168-200 (59.7 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252 Atk Dugtrio Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu-Alola: 222-262 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 189-223 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Dugtrio Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 44-52 (15.4 - 18.2%) -- possible 6HKO (Sucker punch will do more if Greninja activates protean and changes type)

 

[Day Healer]

Hi there.
I don't agree with your Dugtrio nomination to unranked/D because:

Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 28 HP / 2 Def
- Earthquake
- Reversal
- Sucker Punch
- Sludge Wave

In my opinion it's a good revenge killer and trapper for ground teams that helps them to check threatening Pokemon such as tapu bulu,Chansey,porygon2 ,Greninja,Alolan Raichu ,Celesteela under gravity etc.
All the above mentioned Pokemon are threats to ground team since tapu bulu just spams wood hammer or horn leech punching big holes in the team,Chansey and porygon2 wall a good portion ofthe team,Greninja threatens with ice beam and usually runs scarf set which outspeeds excadrill in sand if you happen to run adamant nature,Alolan Raichu can beat ground in electric terrain and Celesteela is just pain in general.

Dugtrio shouldnt be unranked because it deals/Checks all the mons mentioned above. Dugtrio breaks chansey/Porygon2 with Reversal with certainty since opponent can't switch which allows Landorus or excadrill to have easier time vs normal. The three headed mole also checks/Severely weakens Tapu bulu with sludge wave. Dugtrio also traps and checks Alolan raichu with sucker punch irrespective of whether it's in electric terrain or not. Traps Greninja and takes it out with Earthquake+Sucker punch. As mentioned above also traps and checks Celesteela in gravity so opponent can't stall out gravity turns and save Celesteela.

A Pokemon that is checking so many threats for ground teams shouldn't be unranked/D. Regarding its non existent bulk,the bulk is irrelevant when it performs the role of a revenge killer or trapper and it comes in after something has died or via a free switch(smart doubles too) and it always utilizes focus sash(at least in Monotype). I do agree however that ground teams don't have a reliable hazard remover and so most teams rely on rapid spin support from excadrill.

Calculations

Some important Dugtrio Calculations:
4 SpA Dugtrio Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 168-200 (59.7 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252 Atk Dugtrio Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu-Alola: 222-262 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 189-223 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Dugtrio Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 44-52 (15.4 - 18.2%) -- possible 6HKO (Sucker punch will do more if Greninja activates protean and changes type)

Hi Harp, yeah ik what Dugtrio can do, but the thing is most of the threats you mentioned could be taken care for other more relevant mons:

- Alolan Raichu: You couldn't have problems again it anyway, I mean you are using a monoground team to start with.​

- Porygon-2 / Chansey: Like I explained first, both Seismitoad and Mamoswine have access to Knock off, pressing the eviolite core. You could even run Choice Band Mamoswine and do better than running Dugtrio too.​

- Greninja: You must have your focus sash intact to revenge kill Greninja safely, but thats easier said than done. Since you are dealing again a water monotype, chances for Excadrill to rapid spin are very very weak (unless u want to sack it?). Again dark monos you have more chances I agree.​

- Tapu Bulu:​

​

4 SpA Dugtrio Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Bulu: 168-200 (59.7 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery​

​

Unless you lock Bulu into Wood Hammer, Bulu will only be damaged max 70% of its health, then it outspeed Dugtrio ohkoing it and later can recover its HP with Horn Leech / Grassy Terrain all over again.​

- Celesteela: Dugtrio is a nice answer, I give you that.​

So to sum up, even if Dugtrio is very good again Celesteela after gravity, idk if that only could push it to be an A ranking mon. On the last months i have seen 0 dugtrio teams, be it on ladder , main tournaments or another random battles. Anyone can feel free to prove me wrong however ya.
Until then I stay on my position of nominate Dugtrio to D.

 

[Acast]

Hi Harp, yeah ik what Dugtrio can do, but the thing is most of the threats you mentioned could be taken care for other more relevant mons:

- Alolan Raichu: You couldn't have problems again it anyway, I mean you are using a monoground team to start with.​

- Porygon-2 / Chansey: Like I explained first, both Seismitoad and Mamoswine have access to Knock off, pressing the eviolite core. You could even run Choice Band Mamoswine and do better than running Dugtrio too.​

- Greninja: You must have your focus sash intact to revenge kill Greninja safely, but thats easier said than done. Since you are dealing again a water monotype, chances for Excadrill to rapid spin are very very weak (unless u want to sack it?). Again dark monos you have more chances I agree.​

- Tapu Bulu:​

​

4 SpA Dugtrio Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Bulu: 168-200 (59.7 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery​

​

Unless you lock Bulu into Wood Hammer, Bulu will only be damaged max 70% of its health, then it outspeed Dugtrio ohkoing it and later can recover its HP with Horn Leech / Grassy Terrain all over again.​

- Celesteela: Dugtrio is a nice answer, I give you that.​

So to sum up, even if Dugtrio is very good again Celesteela after gravity, idk if that only could push it to be an A ranking mon. On the last months i have seen 0 dugtrio teams, be it on ladder , main tournaments or another random battles. Anyone can feel free to prove me wrong however ya.
Until then I stay on my position of nominate Dugtrio to D.

Dugtrio is not a perfect pokemon by any means, but Arena Trap combined with its high speed, decent attack, and good movepool make it a very potent threat. It doesn't need to be perfect to be in A. Even S ranked mons aren't perfect. I'll be honest and say I don't play Monotype much anymore, but I did play before USUM dropped and Dugtrio was a great addition to any ground team back then. I find it extremely hard to believe that a handful of new Pokemon and Z moves have influenced the metagame enough to drop Dugtrio 3 letter rankings.

My point is that you're calling for an extreme change and you don't have the evidence to back up your stance. A pokemon does not drop from A to D as easily as you make it seem. If you were suggesting it should drop to B rank, maybe people would be more receptive, but I don't even think the majority would agree with that. I can say with absolute certainty that Dugtrio is at least far better than Mega Camerupt or Quagsire, the current D rank Ground types.

 

[smub]

Dugtrio (Ground): A ---> Unranked/D

Lets put, I never understood why Dugtrio was used on monotype in the first place, but i guess it had a niche back there at the start of Gen 7 (screech sets were swag too). Now with the hype gone, there don't exist a reason to use dugtrio anymore:
- Almost not existant bulk? check
- Needs heavy team support of Rapid spin excadrill? check
- Dead weight again certain teams? check
Guess it was fun trap and 2hko chansey with full powered reversal, but monogrounds have plenty of Knock offers to pressure normal monos already, without running a meme mon like Dugtrio. So yeah downgrade it.


STEELIX-MEGA (GROUND): C ---> B

Steelix Mega is a great alternative to Garchomp-Mega for the ground mega. To start, it's the only mon on monoground which isn't 2HKOed by Scarf Tapu bulu Wood Hammer, a big threat to grounds, and can threat it back. Also monofairies struggle again it.
MegaLix also soften the Ice matchup, resisting both weavile and Kyurem-B and even weakening Mamoswine.

General calcs

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 114-135 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
0 Atk Steelix-Mega Gyro Ball (118 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 272-324 (96.7 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Steelix-Mega: 144-171 (40.6 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Steelix-Mega Gyro Ball (138 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 360-426 (92 - 108.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix-Mega: 66-79 (18.6 - 22.3%) -- possible 5HKO
0 Atk Steelix-Mega Gyro Ball (111 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 410-486 (145.9 - 172.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix-Mega: 128-152 (36.1 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Steelix-Mega Gyro Ball (82 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 254-302 (70.3 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Decidueye (Ghost): B ---> D

Like other peps already said in this thread, why it even rosed 2 ranks? Lackluster offensive stats, outclassed like Hazard remover for Dhelmise in both Balance and Trick Room ghost archetypes (in that vein, Dhelmise deserve B rank pretty much instead) and outclassed like Ground resist by both Dhelmise/ Gourgeist. So return this to D.

Haven't been on all day, but I do have to disagree with these. Harp already listed the amount of threats that Dugtrio is capable of beating, so I won't echo those. However, some of your reasoning seems a bit off. First of all, its awful bulk shouldn't matter when it isn't directly coming in on anything or surviving anything without help from its Focus Sash. True this does leave it susceptible to priority, but Dugtrio can also revenge kill through its own priority in Sucker Punch. The point about needing support isn't really that detrimental, since Rapid Spin Excadrill is far from a niche option, and gives Ground a much better chance against Fairy this gen now that it has access to Sticky Web, invalidating Seismitoad as an Azumarill check. Choice Scarf Tapu Bulu in particular is far more difficult to revenge kill, and at some point it'll be forced to use Wood Hammer against Ground, since Lando-I and Garchomp can both survive a Horn Leech from full health. This is what allows Dugtrio to come in and revenge kill with Sludge Wave after the Wood Hammer recoil. Gravity Lando-I also isn't very detrimental, since giving up Rock Slide only means you miss out on things like Mantine and Araquanid, and it's significantly more helpful in the Steel and Flying matchups. Overall for these reasons, and the ones listed by Harp, I think Dugtrio is perfectly fine in A rank.

As for Mega Steelix, outside of its Grass and Ice neutralities, it's just outclassed in a lot of respects by Hippowdon because of its unfortunate lack of reliable recovery. Ground has enough offensive threats to Fairy(Excadrill, Lando-I) that it doesn't necessarily need a whole mega slot dedicated to that single matchup. In fact, Mega Garchomp actually seems more important in the Fairy matchup, being able to live Azumarill's +6 Aqua Jet from full health WHILE outspeeding it even under Sticky Web, and even being able to KO it behing Reflect if sand is up. This is arguably more important for teams that don't run Rapid Spin on Excadrill, since they won't have Seismitoad as a 100% reliable answer.

Also it really doesn't impact the Ice matchup as much as you might think. Scarf Kyurem-Black is hardly ever ran anymore, and even when it is ran, it doesn't run max Special Attack. The most common set(LO) guarantees a 2HKO with Ice Beam against the Mega Steelix set you provided, and can even pick it off with a LO Earth Power after prior chip damage:

252 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Steelix-Mega: 187-222 (52.8 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Steelix-Mega: 250-296 (70.6 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The chip damage isn't necessarily hard to get between hail recoil and Avalugg Rocky Helmet damage. So in the end, Mega Steelix's best contribution in the Ice matchup is just forcing out Weavile and Alolan Sandslash(both of which aren't even necessary for Ice to beat Ground). Overall, Mega Steelix just isn't that influential for Ground teams to justify putting it in the same rank as Pokemon like Mega Garchomp and Gastrodon, and deserves to stay at C rank.

Now for Decidueye. It does get kinda tiresome seeing everyone rank this mon down without understanding why it rose in the first place.The main reason it resides in B rank is because of a very specific Ghost build created by Leru that performed well in tournaments. For reference, here's the team:

Leru ghost

Decidueye @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 232 HP / 104 Atk / 16 Def / 60 SpD / 96 Spe
Careful Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Spirit Shackle
- Swords Dance

Sableye-Mega @ Sablenite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Fake Out
- Knock Off
- Toxic
- Recover

Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Protect
- Shadow Sneak
- Will-O-Wisp

Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Shadow Bone
- Fire Punch
- Substitute

Mimikyu @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Shadow Claw
- Play Rough

Gengar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Trick
- Destiny Bond

Decidueye's more consistent hazard removal does a solid job of supporting Shedinja, which acts as Ghost's easiest Mega Lopunny switch-in. Dhelmise, while not having Defog, can actually execute bulky sets rather effectively thanks to it now having access to Synthesis in USUM. Both can serve as Tapu Koko switch-ins that aren't as easily worn down as Alolan Marowak, but Dhelmise has the added benefit of avoiding a 2HKO from either of Mega Diancie's attacks. Both are capable of trapping, setting up on, and removing different threats, with Decidueye being able to remove both Leftovers and Assault Vest Celesteela, non-Haze Toxapex, and Lando-I, while Dhelmise is capable of removing Clefable, Chansey, and Mega Diancie. Here are some calcs of how they're capable of doing this:

Calcs

Decidueye:
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 232 HP / 16 Def Decidueye: 162-192 (45.6 - 54%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
224+ SpA Celesteela Flamethrower vs. 232 HP / 60+ SpD Decidueye: 158-188 (44.5 - 52.9%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 232 HP / 60+ SpD Decidueye: 139-164 (39.1 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dhelmise:
240 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 152+ SpD Dhelmise: 153-180 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Dhelmise: 147-174 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 152+ SpD Dhelmise: 128-152 (37.2 - 44.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Here are some replays featuring both alterations:

Replays

Vs Webs Fairy: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-673115368 (even though I lost this it still shows the pressure Dhelmise can place in this MU
Vs Regular Fairy: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-673141180
Vs Poison: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-673136937
Vs Steel: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-673134379
Vs Normal: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-673165765
And here are a few tournament games from both Summer and Fall Seasonals:
Vs Psychic: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-664756940
Vs Electric: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-624348048

So in sumation, not only should Decidueye stay in B rank, but I also believe that Dhelmise deserves a spot in B rank on Ghost because of its important role on this Ghost build.

Sample Sets

Decidueye @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 60 SpD / 96 Spe
Careful Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Spirit Shackle
- Swords Dance

Dhelmise @ Leftovers
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 152 SpD
Careful Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Synthesis
- Swords Dance
- Rapid Spin

holy crap this took forever

 

[Yung Dramps]

Haven't been on all day, but I do have to disagree with these. Harp already listed the amount of threats that Dugtrio is capable of beating, so I won't echo those. However, some of your reasoning seems a bit off. First of all, its awful bulk shouldn't matter when it isn't directly coming in on anything or surviving anything without help from its Focus Sash. True this does leave it susceptible to priority, but Dugtrio can also revenge kill through its own priority in Sucker Punch. The point about needing support isn't really that detrimental, since Rapid Spin Excadrill is far from a niche option, and gives Ground a much better chance against Fairy this gen now that it has access to Sticky Web, invalidating Seismitoad as an Azumarill check. Choice Scarf Tapu Bulu in particular is far more difficult to revenge kill, and at some point it'll be forced to use Wood Hammer against Ground, since Lando-I and Garchomp can both survive a Horn Leech from full health. This is what allows Dugtrio to come in and revenge kill with Sludge Wave after the Wood Hammer recoil. Gravity Lando-I also isn't very detrimental, since giving up Rock Slide only means you miss out on things like Mantine and Araquanid, and it's significantly more helpful in the Steel and Flying matchups. Overall for these reasons, and the ones listed by Harp, I think Dugtrio is perfectly fine in A rank.

As for Mega Steelix, outside of its Grass and Ice neutralities, it's just outclassed in a lot of respects by Hippowdon because of its unfortunate lack of reliable recovery. Ground has enough offensive threats to Fairy(Excadrill, Lando-I) that it doesn't necessarily need a whole mega slot dedicated to that single matchup. In fact, Mega Garchomp actually seems more important in the Fairy matchup, being able to live Azumarill's +6 Aqua Jet from full health WHILE outspeeding it even under Sticky Web, and even being able to KO it behing Reflect if sand is up. This is arguably more important for teams that don't run Rapid Spin on Excadrill, since they won't have Seismitoad as a 100% reliable answer.

Also it really doesn't impact the Ice matchup as much as you might think. Scarf Kyurem-Black is hardly ever ran anymore, and even when it is ran, it doesn't run max Special Attack. The most common set(LO) guarantees a 2HKO with Ice Beam against the Mega Steelix set you provided, and can even pick it off with a LO Earth Power after prior chip damage:

252 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Steelix-Mega: 187-222 (52.8 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Steelix-Mega: 250-296 (70.6 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The chip damage isn't necessarily hard to get between hail recoil and Avalugg Rocky Helmet damage. So in the end, Mega Steelix's best contribution in the Ice matchup is just forcing out Weavile and Alolan Sandslash(both of which aren't even necessary for Ice to beat Ground). Overall, Mega Steelix just isn't that influential for Ground teams to justify putting it in the same rank as Pokemon like Mega Garchomp and Gastrodon, and deserves to stay at C rank.

Now for Decidueye. It does get kinda tiresome seeing everyone rank this mon down without understanding why it rose in the first place.The main reason it resides in B rank is because of a very specific Ghost build created by Leru that performed well in tournaments. For reference, here's the team:

Leru ghost

Decidueye @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 232 HP / 104 Atk / 16 Def / 60 SpD / 96 Spe
Careful Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Spirit Shackle
- Swords Dance

Sableye-Mega @ Sablenite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Fake Out
- Knock Off
- Toxic
- Recover

Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Protect
- Shadow Sneak
- Will-O-Wisp

Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Shadow Bone
- Fire Punch
- Substitute

Mimikyu @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Shadow Claw
- Play Rough

Gengar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Trick
- Destiny Bond

Decidueye's more consistent hazard removal does a solid job of supporting Shedinja, which acts as Normal's easiest Mega Lopunny switch-in. Dhelmise, while not having Defog, can actually execute bulky sets rather effectively thanks to it now having access to Synthesis in USUM. Both can serve as Tapu Koko switch-ins that aren't as easily worn down as Alolan Marowak, but Dhelmise has the added benefit of avoiding a 2HKO from either of Mega Diancie's attacks. Both are capable of trapping, setting up on, and removing different threats, with Decidueye being able to remove both Leftovers and Assault Vest Celesteela, non-Haze Toxapex, and Lando-I, while Dhelmise is capable of removing Clefable, Chansey, and Mega Diancie. Here are some calcs of how they're capable of doing this:

Calcs

Decidueye:
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 232 HP / 16 Def Decidueye: 162-192 (45.6 - 54%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
224+ SpA Celesteela Flamethrower vs. 232 HP / 60+ SpD Decidueye: 158-188 (44.5 - 52.9%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 232 HP / 60+ SpD Decidueye: 139-164 (39.1 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dhelmise:
240 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 152+ SpD Dhelmise: 153-180 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Dhelmise: 147-174 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 152+ SpD Dhelmise: 128-152 (37.2 - 44.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Quite frankly I'm surprised Dhelmise was even unranked, when it serves a very similar purpose to Decidueye on the exact same Ghost build. Here are some replays featuring both alterations:

Replays

Vs Webs Fairy: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-673115368(even though I lost this it still shows the pressure Dhelmise can place in this MU
Vs Regular Fairy: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-673141180
Vs Poison: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-673136937
Vs Steel: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-673134379
And here are a few tournament games from both Summer and Fall Seasonals:
Vs Psychic: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-664756940
Vs Electric: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-624348048
Vs Normal: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-673165765

So in sumation, not only should Decidueye stay in B rank, but I also believe that Dhelmise deserves a spot in C rank on Ghost because of its important role on this Ghost build.

Sample Sets

Decidueye @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 232 HP / 104 Atk / 16 Def / 60 SpD / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Spirit Shackle
- Swords Dance

Dhelmise @ Leftovers
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 152 SpD
Careful Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Synthesis
- Swords Dance
- Rapid Spin

holy crap this took forever

Oh, cool. I think most people (myself included) were confused as to why Decidueye rose so much. Thanks for clearing that up!

 

[Dece1t]

To be completely frank, I actually agree with Day Healer. Ground doesn't have the proper hazard support to help keep Dugtrio's sash in tact (day healer also mentioned rapid spin being extremely unreliable against water, it makes little sense to run it, given you're risking your main wincon in a vast majority of matchups). However, Dugtrio does have it's niches, focus sash reversal can actually do decent revenge kills if you do somehow manage to keep focus sash in tact. I wont reiterate points already made on what it oftentimes fails to check, bc Healer already stated them, and hes absolutely right. That being said, D is a steep drop, but a drop is necessary. Dugtrio has lost a substantial amount of viability for quite some time, therefore, I think C/B is suitable. It's nowhere near A rank level (and truthfully, I'd argue it never was; it was overhyped like a lot of new buffs and mechanics in the beginning of SM, and in the end it proved to be underwhelming).

 

[Yung Dramps]

Ye, I can't help but agree with Dece1t. Dugtrio's main claim to fame is how it can beat Tapu Bulu, a huge threat to Ground, via the use of Sludge Wave. But as Day Healer showed, it's really a kind of shaky check to that Pokemon due to how pitifully weak non-STAB Sludge Wave is. Also, I'm pretty sure Chansey just wins via Seismic Toss spam:

252 Atk Dugtrio Focus Punch (200 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 482-568 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While D/Unranked is obviously way too extreme of a drop (it's not that useless), I do think it merits a drop, since it's inconsistent at beating the things its supposed to. B sounds fair

 

[Havens]

I agree with the fact that Dugtrio should move down, but tell me what other options do you have to combat Tapu Bulu at full HP? Sure there's Mamoswine and Sand Rush Excadrill, but Bulu can very easily swap out of those scenarios into another partner, persay Klefki, set up a Reflect, and bring Bulu back in. The fact that Dugtrio traps Bulu to at least provide chip for Mamoswine to potentially revenge kill it is huge: Bulu would otherwise be more difficult than it already is to stop if you're the Ground user. Harpp pretty much said the majority of things on why Dugtrio still is critical for Ground's success; nothing needs to be added, and tbf I also made a similar nomination to Dugtrio in the old SM Viability Rankings, and even yet I still recognize what Dugtrio is capable of.

This discussion is going nowhere; might as well stop now unless someone has a very convincing argument with proof to back it up; right now Dugtrio's heading for the blacklist at this rate~

 

[Dece1t]

I agree with the fact that Dugtrio should move down, but tell me what other options do you have to combat Tapu Bulu at full HP? Sure there's Mamoswine and Sand Rush Excadrill, but Bulu can very easily swap out of those scenarios into another partner, persay Klefki, set up a Reflect, and bring Bulu back in. The fact that Dugtrio traps Bulu to at least provide chip for Mamoswine to potentially revenge kill it is huge: Bulu would otherwise be more difficult than it already is to stop if you're the Ground user. Harpp pretty much said the majority of things on why Dugtrio still is critical for Ground's success; nothing needs to be added, and tbf I also made a similar nomination to Dugtrio in the old SM Viability Rankings, and even yet I still recognize what Dugtrio is capable of.

This discussion is going nowhere; might as well stop now unless someone has a very convincing argument with proof to back it up; right now Dugtrio's heading for the blacklist at this rate~

Problem is though, if Tapu Bulu is locked into Horn Leech (and assuming it's scarfed), Dugtrio is gonna do little to shit to it to allow Mamoswine to revenge kill. So, in the end, yea, you're forced to rely on Excadrill to check it, which oftentimes means sacking someone in order for Exca to make it in safely. The only way you can actually check it with Dugtrio (again, assuming it is scarf) is if its somehow locked into Wood Hammer, and unless you're running some crazy defensive and passive Mega Steelix, there's no reason to bc it already at least 2KOs everything with Horn Leech (that's also assuming assumed Grass or Fairy team doesn't have SR and/or Spikes up by then). It's unfortunately very unreliable when it comes to checking Tapu Bulu, so that rationality is debunked.

In the end, the only things Dugtrio really softens is the Eviolite twins (which can already be heavily pressured by both Mamoswine and Seismitoad, the former of which can even carry Banded Superpower + Priority), Greninja (Jolly Excadrill does outspeed scarf variants), and Celesteela to a limited extent. Dugtrio does not live up to the current A rank mons, and if anything, it's difficult to fit on a good and polished team.

P.S. The discussion isn't going nowhere, that's the beauty of a debate. There's some (I stress some) legitimate points being made that are worth discussing regarding Dugtrio's viability. However, saying it'll get blacklisted doesn't help, mods will pitch in if they feel things are getting out of hand. Also, the bulk argument has to be dropped, that has little to nothing to do with how Dugtrio is used. It runs a Focus Sash and Reversal for a reason.

 

[Havens]

Problem is though, if Tapu Bulu is locked into Horn Leech (and assuming it's scarfed), Dugtrio is gonna do little to shit to it to allow Mamoswine to revenge kill. So, in the end, yea, you're forced to rely on Excadrill to check it, which oftentimes means sacking someone in order for Exca to make it in safely. The only way you can actually check it with Dugtrio (again, assuming it is scarf) is if its somehow locked into Wood Hammer, and unless you're running some crazy defensive and passive Mega Steelix, there's no reason to bc it already at least 2KOs everything with Horn Leech (that's also assuming assumed Grass or Fairy team doesn't have SR and/or Spikes up by then). It's unfortunately very unreliable when it comes to checking Tapu Bulu, so that rationality is debunked.

In the end, the only things Dugtrio really softens is the Eviolite twins (which can already be heavily pressured by both Mamoswine and Seismitoad, the former of which can even carry Banded Superpower + Priority), Greninja (Jolly Excadrill does outspeed scarf variants), and Celesteela to a limited extent. Dugtrio does not live up to the current A rank mons, and if anything, it's difficult to fit on a good and polished team.

P.S. The discussion isn't going nowhere, that's the beauty of a debate. There's some (I stress some) legitimate points being made that are worth discussing regarding Dugtrio's viability. However, saying it'll get blacklisted doesn't help, mods will pitch in if they feel things are getting out of hand. Also, the bulk argument has to be dropped, that has little to nothing to do with how Dugtrio is used. It runs a Focus Sash and Reversal for a reason.

Hear out then what was brought up when I said the same nomination under similar conditions (wanted to quote but the thread got locked):

"Regarding Dugtrio, I find it strange you can so easily write off a Pokemon that traps and removes the single greatest threat to Ground in the current Monotype metagame. Dugtrio is also far from deadweight in other matchups if you use Reversal, which helps you break that ridiculous Normal defensive core if you lack Knock Off Landorus. Dugtrio also guaranteed traps Alolan Raichu, which is actually capable of beating Ground, and makes Electric an easy matchup instead of being surprisingly close to even. Because you don't need Knock Off Landorus, you can run Gravity to pair with Dugtrio. With Gravity active, Dugtrio can trap even Flying-types and Levitate users. This means you can trap and remove Celesteela, which is another one of the biggest threats to Ground. You can also trap Skarmory, Mega Charizard Y, and other targets. Pretending that it only beats Tapu Bulu is fundamentally a lack of understanding on what exactly Dugtrio offers to Ground. It is by far the best flex slot in my opinion because of just how much it beats for Ground that no other Pokemon could dream of compressing all into one slot." -@Eien

Regardless of what happens next, I'm staying off this topic.

 

[Dece1t]

Firstly, he clearly stated the current metagame at that time. USM has adapted quite a bit differently, and that still does not answer how exactly Dugtrio checks Scarf Tapu Bulu outside of it being locked into Wood Hammer. Also, since when did Lando-I ever use Knock Off when you have a perfectly capable Seismitoad and/or Mamoswine that can also run it, while allowing you to still run Gravity. It's not in the slightest a lack of understanding, if anything its justification. That does not mean Dugtrio is now D rank, I just don't believe it now lives up to the hype it had at the beginning of SM.

 

[Eien]

Right, a lot of uninformed posting here. I won't delete these recent posts because I feel the best thing in this thread is to work as a community to support each other. Nevertheless, unsubstantiated claims are not okay and I would strongly encourage being familiar with Monotype before making big claims like dropping Dugtrio from A (especially one like deranking). I think others have appropriately addressed Day Healer, so I'll give a different perspective on why Dugtrio is easily one of the better A ranks.

First, the point of VR is comparison. Is Dugtrio as good as the other A ranks? Let's take a look at them.

Landorus-T is easily the worst A rank due to its competition in the almost necessary Landorus. If any A rank is dropping, Landorus-T would definitely be the first on the chopping block. There's nothing really to argue here; Landorus is just that much better than Landorus-T.

Seismitoad's claim to fame was outspeeding Azumarill and OHKOing it after Z-Belly Drum. With Sticky Web being an option, this role is now less reliable, although obviously Excadrill is great at spinning so it's not a huge issue. Also remember Dugtrio always beats Azumarill if it has its Sash anyway (say against Choice Band Tapu Bulu teams). Gastrodon is a much better Water immunity and recent meta shifts have definitely begun to threatened Seismitoad's hold on a higher ranking, although not significantly.

The fact that Dugtrio is better than these two A ranks and is at least on par with or better than Garchomp and Mamoswine, which both have their own threats that they check albeit to a worse degree, means it is staying in the A rank.

By the way Dece1t, your misunderstanding of Ground vs Fairy is likely why you have some of these misconceptions about Dugtrio. Choice Scarf Tapu Bulu is forced to Wood Hammer most of the time. As a result, it will lose to Dugtrio every time when you add in the recoil. Also, against Choice Band teams, Dugtrio successfully always beats Azumarill as well. Unless Klefki can get up both Reflect and Light Screen, Azumarill cannot get past the appropriate check between Dugtrio and Seismitoad. Fairy cannot keep hazards up on Ground because Excadrill spins for free so often and beats all of Fairy's setters. As a result Dugtrio reliably always traps and removes one of the two most threatening Pokémon on Fairy.

You simply cannot have all the utility that Dugtrio brings in just one Pokémon. Trapping and removing Naganadel, Tapu Bulu, Celesteela, Alolan Raichu, Mega Charizard Y, Azumarill, Klefki, Kyurem-B, Greninja, Choice Specs Keldeo, and so many others is a unique role that no other Pokémon can fulfill.

In general, all of the arguments for dropping Dugtrio are simply invalid. The only matchup Dugtrio is "deadweight" in is arguably Grass. Even Flying, being able to trap Celesteela and Mega Charizard Y is valuable. There are few matchups that Excadrill is bad at spinning in, and none of them are the matchups you need Dugtrio in. As a result, this argument is similarly borne from lack of metagame knowledge.

I'm going to request that you take some time and try to figure out Ground before you make more posts on this topic. You've made bad posts on Dugtrio before in the past along with similarly bad posts on other Ground-type Pokémon like Mega Camerupt. I appreciate your efforts to contribute to the community, but contributions are only helpful if they are grounded (pardon the pun) in reality, which your posts never are.

Dugtrio is staying A rank for the foreseeable future. You are always welcome to PM anyone on the VR council for further explanations on any rankings you are confused about. This thread is not the place for pushing your personal beliefs on Pokémon but a resource for newer players to use. Let's keep this informative and not be disruptive. Nominations that don't go through aren't bad, but the discussion should be positive and certain users have definitely derailed this nomination.

For a short while, uninformed posts on this specific Pokémon, Dugtrio, may be deleted without warning, as the quality of this discussion has been rather poor. This is not a blacklisting but a temporary curation of posts.

 

[all falls down]

Hello

As someone who's recently come back to Pokemon and has tried to get used to this metagame again, I thought that I would mention this idea that has popped in my head. One of the functions of a viability rankings thread is to capture the metagame of a tier, in some way, and to show current trends, threats, and common Pokemon. For other tiers especially, the viability rankings does a good job at doing that, since there is a concise list of viable Pokemon presented. Clearly, monotype is different, and it's a lot more difficult to understand metagame trends from this thread because of the nature of the tier.

I think we should bring back the old 'monotype playstyle ranking' thread, or whatever it was called, and fuse it with this thread; that is, make another small viability ranking list on this thread in the main post that shows the viability of different types. For example, based on the knowledge I've accumulated the past two weeks, it seems as if balance water / stall water are clearly S rank right now and above the other types, normal in A etc (or whatever, I could be wrong.)

In my opinion this would do a much better job in showing current metagame trends/top types + threats, and it is a lot less intimidating than all the hide tags to new players or players of other tiers. It's easier to look at and easier to understand. We can of course also leave the current viability rankings for those who are more accustomed to the metagame or are trying to teambuild specific types.

 

[Kolper]

Mega-Manectric (Electric) C Rank ===> B Rank
Thundurus (Electric) B Rank ====> A Rank.

Electric has a few bad matchups, but I think we can all agree normal is one of the worst one. Bulky Chansey and Porygon-2 really stop the mostly special attacking electric, but even worse, Mega-Lopunny can almost 6-0 your team if you're not careful. A-Raichu in Electric Terrain helps, but Fake Out pressure from Lopunny means it's only good as a last resort. That's when M-Manec comes in. Intimidating M-Lopunny makes it less of a threat, and it's the only electric type capable of speed tieing with it, excluding the unreleased Zeraora. This guy and a physical Thundurus are the only thing in electric that make a normal type matchup beatable.

I believe M-Manectric fulfills a similar role to Magnezone. They both deal with steel types, though Magnezone is obviously better at that, hits harder and traps them. But does Electric really need Magnezone to beat Steel? I believe that M-Manectric is helping with steel, and I don't even see Steel as a bad match up for electric anyway. The worst problem is Mold Breaker Scarf Excadrill, and Magnezone doesn't really help with that. M-Manectric is faster, can win against Lopunny almost 50% of the time and also has access to both fire and ice, something Magnezone can't do, which allows it to help even against dragons through Hidden Power Ice + Intimidate.

Overall, I just don't see a way to put Magnezone higher than M-Manectric, as far as usefulness goes the latter offers about as much as the former if not more against the most threatening types matchup for electric.

Now we come to my pride and joy. Physical Thundurus. The mon to make normal an actual fight for electric instead of insta lose.

Physical Thundurus for Electric

Thundurus @ Choice Band
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Tail
- U-turn / Grass Knot
- Knock Off
- Superpower

Helps against Fairy, helps against Normal, helps against Dark and Steel and even Psychic. Physical Thundurus is incredibly important for Electric. It outspeed base 110 common threats like latios/latias and it can apply defog pressure through defiant. Grass Knot instead of U-turn if you need more ground support, but realistically, electric just loses against ground unless you outplay your opponent hard. It becomes a game of EQ or Stone Edge, and then you just have to be good at that. Anyway, the only other mon in Elec capable of filling for physical attacker is Electivire at the moment, and you have to scarf it so it hits much less hard without access to knock off and in general a shitty moveset. Also Eelektross I guess.

252 Atk Choice Band Thundurus Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 476-562 (67.7 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Thundurus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 204-240 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Calcs are a bit useless, they just show how much damage you can expect from him, his main thing is that he knock off eviolite and then they both become much, much more beatable.

Now against psychic.

252 Atk Choice Band Thundurus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 350-412 (116.2 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Thundurus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 316-374 (104.6 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This is if they're holding an item, if they're scarfed though you are in Latios Draco Meteor range, which is a problem that you can only solve by predicting into Koko.

Still, if they're Mega, you just U-turn:
252 Atk Choice Band Thundurus U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 252-298 (83.7 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Thundurus U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 230-272 (76.1 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

A decent damage that any of your faster than 110 electric mons can revenge kill easily.

Now for Fairy.
252 Atk Choice Band Thundurus Iron Tail vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 266-314 (94.6 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus in Grassy Terrain: 197-232 (65.8 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 322-380 (107.6 - 127%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So it can kinda deal with Bulu, even if it's scarfed, but then you gotta keep him at full health and out of SR and pray for Stone Edge misses. Scarf Tapu Bulu is just a problem in general man. Anyway, from that damage you can figure out it also kills Diancie, which it outspeeds. You need to land those Iron Tail, but it's an important move to have in this meta.

There's also something to be said about scarfing Thundurus, but it just does so much less damage, Diancie becomes a range. Band it.

As Thundurus is probably the only mon to make Chansey and Porygon 2 beatable for Electric, I think he really should be upgraded to A rank.

 

[Harpp]

Mega-Manectric (Electric) C Rank ===> B Rank
Thundurus (Electric) B Rank ====> A Rank.

Electric has a few bad matchups, but I think we can all agree normal is one of the worst one. Bulky Chansey and Porygon-2 really stop the mostly special attacking electric, but even worse, Mega-Lopunny can almost 6-0 your team if you're not careful. A-Raichu in Electric Terrain helps, but Fake Out pressure from Lopunny means it's only good as a last resort. That's when M-Manec comes in. Intimidating M-Lopunny makes it less of a threat, and it's the only electric type capable of speed tieing with it, excluding the unreleased Zeraora. This guy and a physical Thundurus are the only thing in electric that make a normal type matchup beatable.

I believe M-Manectric fulfills a similar role to Magnezone. They both deal with steel types, though Magnezone is obviously better at that, hits harder and traps them. But does Electric really need Magnezone to beat Steel? I believe that M-Manectric is helping with steel, and I don't even see Steel as a bad match up for electric anyway. The worst problem is Mold Breaker Scarf Excadrill, and Magnezone doesn't really help with that. M-Manectric is faster, can win against Lopunny almost 50% of the time and also has access to both fire and ice, something Magnezone can't do, which allows it to help even against dragons through Hidden Power Ice + Intimidate.

Overall, I just don't see a way to put Magnezone higher than M-Manectric, as far as usefulness goes the latter offers about as much as the former if not more against the most threatening types matchup for electric.

Now we come to my pride and joy. Physical Thundurus. The mon to make normal an actual fight for electric instead of insta lose.

Physical Thundurus for Electric

Thundurus @ Choice Band
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Tail
- U-turn / Grass Knot
- Knock Off
- Superpower

Helps against Fairy, helps against Normal, helps against Dark and Steel and even Psychic. Physical Thundurus is incredibly important for Electric. It outspeed base 110 common threats like latios/latias and it can apply defog pressure through defiant. Grass Knot instead of U-turn if you need more ground support, but realistically, electric just loses against ground unless you outplay your opponent hard. It becomes a game of EQ or Stone Edge, and then you just have to be good at that. Anyway, the only other mon in Elec capable of filling for physical attacker is Electivire at the moment, and you have to scarf it so it hits much less hard without access to knock off and in general a shitty moveset. Also Eelektross I guess.

252 Atk Choice Band Thundurus Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 476-562 (67.7 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Thundurus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 204-240 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Calcs are a bit useless, they just show how much damage you can expect from him, his main thing is that he knock off eviolite and then they both become much, much more beatable.

Now against psychic.

252 Atk Choice Band Thundurus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 350-412 (116.2 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Thundurus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 316-374 (104.6 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This is if they're holding an item, if they're scarfed though you are in Latios Draco Meteor range, which is a problem that you can only solve by predicting into Koko.

Still, if they're Mega, you just U-turn:
252 Atk Choice Band Thundurus U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 252-298 (83.7 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Thundurus U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 230-272 (76.1 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

A decent damage that any of your faster than 110 electric mons can revenge kill easily.

Now for Fairy.
252 Atk Choice Band Thundurus Iron Tail vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 266-314 (94.6 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus in Grassy Terrain: 197-232 (65.8 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 322-380 (107.6 - 127%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So it can kinda deal with Bulu, even if it's scarfed, but then you gotta keep him at full health and out of SR and pray for Stone Edge misses. Scarf Tapu Bulu is just a problem in general man. Anyway, from that damage you can figure out it also kills Diancie, which it outspeeds. You need to land those Iron Tail, but it's an important move to have in this meta.

There's also something to be said about scarfing Thundurus, but it just does so much less damage, Diancie becomes a range. Band it.

As Thundurus is probably the only mon to make Chansey and Porygon 2 beatable for Electric, I think he really should be upgraded to A rank.

Hi there,
It's true Normal is one of the bad match ups for electric and electric mono has few arsenal vs that bulky fat type called as normal. Coming to your nomination for mega manectric, you stated intimidate and speed tie that forces mega lopunny to switch out, while it's true but normal has a solid defensive back bone and it can easily go into its premier special wall chansey to sponge a hit and bring lopunny in later again. Also mega Manectric cannot switch in on Mega lopunny as it risks getting severely weakened and normal type teams can consistently set rocks so Mega Manectric cannot truly pressure Normal in my opinion. I don't find your reason ;Mega Manectric wining 50% of the time vs Mega lopunny as reliable reason for increase in VR rank because most players will switch it out vs Mega Manectric.

252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega in Electric Terrain: 234-276 (86.3 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

-1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manectric-Mega: 138-163 (49.1 - 58%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

Regarding you comparing it with Magnezone,Both Mega Manectric and Magnezone fulfill different roles. Magnezone traps and takes out Ferrothorn with HP fire vs steel and grass. You stated magnezone doesn't help vs mold breaker scarf excadrill which In reality is false. You see there is a Magnezone set tailored towards checking scarf excadrill which is air balloon Magnezone set:

Magnezone @ Air Balloon
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Volt Switch

This set makes Magnezone a perfect counter to a Choice-locked Excadrill, as it has to lock itself into either Iron Head or Rock Slide. So magnezone not only helps in taking out troublesome mons like ferrothorn for teammates such as tapu Koko and raichu but it also deals with major threats such as scarf excadrill by Trapping them and taking out with certainty since opponent can't switch due to its ability. Specs Magnezone which is more common also does a good job of taking out excadrill ,because if the opponent uses rock slide expecting a Flying type like zapdos to come in then magnezone traps and takes it out. Not to mention Magnezone 2hkos Mega venusaur with Flash cannon and so it can pressure off the grass frog which mega Manectric fails to do so.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 180-213 (49.4 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Manectric-Mega Overheat vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 122-144 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So I don't think it's good to compare Mega Manectric with Magnezone as Magnezone in my opinion does a better job at handling troublesome Pokemon and threats for electric type teams and hence I don't agree with Mega Manectric as B rank.

 

[Kolper]

Hi there,
It's true Normal is one of the bad match ups for electric and electric mono has few arsenal vs that bulky fat type called as normal. Coming to your nomination for mega manectric, you stated intimidate and speed tie that forces mega lopunny to switch out, while it's true but normal has a solid defensive back bone and it can easily go into its premier special wall chansey to sponge a hit and bring lopunny in later again. Also mega Manectric cannot switch in on Mega lopunny as it risks getting severely weakened and normal type teams can consistently set rocks so Mega Manectric cannot truly pressure Normal in my opinion. I don't find your reason ;Mega Manectric wining 50% of the time vs Mega lopunny as reliable reason for increase in VR rank because most players will switch it out vs Mega Manectric.

252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega in Electric Terrain: 234-276 (86.3 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

-1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manectric-Mega: 138-163 (49.1 - 58%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

Regarding you comparing it with Magnezone,Both Mega Manectric and Magnezone fulfill different roles. Magnezone traps and takes out Ferrothorn with HP fire vs steel and grass. You stated magnezone doesn't help vs mold breaker scarf excadrill which In reality is false. You see there is a Magnezone set tailored towards checking scarf excadrill which is air balloon Magnezone set:

Magnezone @ Air Balloon
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Volt Switch

This set makes Magnezone a perfect counter to a Choice-locked Excadrill, as it has to lock itself into either Iron Head or Rock Slide. So magnezone not only helps in taking out troublesome mons like ferrothorn for teammates such as tapu Koko and raichu but it also deals with major threats such as scarf excadrill by Trapping them and taking out with certainty since opponent can't switch due to its ability. Specs Magnezone which is more common also does a good job of taking out excadrill ,because if the opponent uses rock slide expecting a Flying type like zapdos to come in then magnezone traps and takes it out. Not to mention Magnezone 2hkos Mega venusaur with Flash cannon and so it can pressure off the grass frog which mega Manectric fails to do so.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 180-213 (49.4 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Manectric-Mega Overheat vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 122-144 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So I don't think it's good to compare Mega Manectric with Magnezone as Magnezone in my opinion does a better job at handling troublesome Pokemon and threats for electric type teams and hence I don't agree with Mega Manectric as B rank.

If you don't run it though, M-Lopunny destroy your team piece by piece by 2HKOing everything that elec has while outspeeding them, outside of A-Raichu who, as mentioned before, is extremely weak to fake out and priority in general. I understand that most will switch out, but that takes little from the fact that if you don't run it, normal become an even bigger problem than they already are. As that's the one type that stonewall electric hard, I think it's important to mention it.

As for the comparison between Zone and M-Manectric, I believe you're missing an important point. Electric doesn't need to overprepare against steel, it's a good matchup. Scarfed drill is a problem, but it's not unsurmountable. Bisharp is always annoying, but you can deal with it. You don't need to have a trapper to do that, M-Manectric pressures Steel well enough that you don't need Zone admittedly better trapping and power to deal with them. It's a question of value, with Mane you get better coverage also against Dragons, which are a huge threat in the meta, and, as already said, a better chance against normal.

I believe that having better chances against staple meta teams like normal and dragon makes it about as valuable as Zone. The only real value it adds that M-Mane doesn't is against Venusaur, that's true, but covering for Grass and Poison instead of Normal and Dragon makes them at least equal in value when teambuilding, don't you think?

 

[Tyke]

If you don't run it though, M-Lopunny destroy your team piece by piece by 2HKOing everything that elec has while outspeeding them, outside of A-Raichu who, as mentioned before, is extremely weak to fake out and priority in general. I understand that most will switch out, but that takes little from the fact that if you don't run it, normal become an even bigger problem than they already are. As that's the one type that stonewall electric hard, I think it's important to mention it.

As for the comparison between Zone and M-Manectric, I believe you're missing an important point. Electric doesn't need to overprepare against steel, it's a good matchup. Scarfed drill is a problem, but it's not unsurmountable. Bisharp is always annoying, but you can deal with it. You don't need to have a trapper to do that, M-Manectric pressures Steel well enough that you don't need Zone admittedly better trapping and power to deal with them. It's a question of value, with Mane you get better coverage also against Dragons, which are a huge threat in the meta, and, as already said, a better chance against normal.

I believe that having better chances against staple meta teams like normal and dragon makes it about as valuable as Zone. The only real value it adds that M-Mane doesn't is against Venusaur, that's true, but covering for Grass and Poison instead of Normal and Dragon makes them at least equal in value when teambuilding, don't you think?

I’m not sure how Mega Manectric is helping in the Normal matchup. You can maybe check Mega Lopunny but still lose to Chansey so what? Unless you pair it with sub toxic Zapdos or some niche Thundurus set that matchup is still lost.

Likewise I don’t see how Mega Manectric is helping against dragon. You’re still losing to Mega Latias, Mega altaria, or naganadel. Hp ice isn’t even KOing tank / sash chomp, latios, dragonite, kyurem-Black, or hydreigon.

A slightly better matchup doesn’t mean anything when you still lose it overwhelmingly if the Normal/dragon player plays remotely competently.

 

[Kolper]

I’m not sure how Mega Manectric is helping in the Normal matchup. You can maybe check Mega Lopunny but still lose to Chansey so what? Unless you pair it with sub toxic Zapdos or some niche Thundurus set that matchup is still lost.

Likewise I don’t see how Mega Manectric is helping against dragon. You’re still losing to Mega Latias, Mega altaria, or naganadel. Hp ice isn’t even KOing tank / sash chomp, latios, dragonite, kyurem-Black, or hydreigon.

A slightly better matchup doesn’t mean anything when you still lose it overwhelmingly if the Normal/dragon player plays remotely competently.

I don't believe physical Thundurus should be a niche set in Electric though. I believe it should be the only way it is run in monotype actually, because it helps electric so much against an enormous amount of threats.

As for how M-Manectric helps with Dragon, first of all don't underestimate intimidate. Also just having a 2HKOing move is important, because dragon is a tough match up. To bring it back to the Magnezone comparison though, my main point for M-Manectric is how I don't think it should be a tier below Zone in the meta. Zone helps against things that Electric has little problem against, except M-Venusaur, while M-Manectric helps against Electric worst threats. The point is I don't understand why Magnezone is better than M-Manec in the current meta. M-Venusaur is a threat, no doubt about that, but grass and poison are not exactly staple Mono teams anyway.

I'm going to say this though. The only way Electric wins against normal is through the combo of Thundurus and Manectric + a well used A-Raichu, and, if you want to have really good chances, Scarf Electivire. The obvious Koko aside, that's a five mon team that is 100% capable of beating the staple normal team of Chansey, Porygon-2, M-Lopunny, Diggersby, Staraptor and Ditto. I've tested it again and again and even without Electivire, you still have about even odds of winning depending on how you play. With Electivire you have better odds though.

Against Dragon is a bit more complex, given their diversity, but Naga is OHKO'd by A-Raichu and even Electivire has a 68.8% chance of OHKO'ing with Earthquake. M-Altaria is a bit more complex to face, but M-Manectric can somewhat pressure it, enough that Scarf Electivire can kill it. My point though is that while M-Manectric in this sort of match ups actively helps, Magnezone hinders. It's dead weight against most dragons, as it gets outsped if not scarfed and OHKO'd by EQ, and if it's not specs it doesn't help as much against Venusaur. Against normal it might as well not be there, the only thing it touches is Staraptor. I don't see how it can be B Rank if M-Manectric is C Rank, t. But Zone is a good mon, it deserves its B-Rank.

But that said, while I do believe M-Manec should be in the same rank as Magnezone for sure, let's also talk about physical Thundurus and how it should be A-Rank. I believe for certain that the banded set deserves A-Rank.

 

[smub]

I think this nomination's gonna be a bit controversial:

Mega Charizard Y: S=>A (Fire)

Mega Charizard X has always been the superior mega in comparison to Mega Charizard Y, due to its effectiveness in far more matchups. However, in USUM, there's even more incentive not to use Mega Charizard Y.

I'll start with the increased viability of Rotom-H. Thanks to Defog, it's a much better option as not only a screens setter and bulky pivot, but also as a secondary hazard remover alongside Torkoal, a role that was previously filled by Mega Charizard Y. Mega Charizard X in particular benefits immensely from this screens support as a means of setting up with Dragon Dance, as do other setup sweepers like Z-Celebrate Victini and Volcarona. Rotom-H itself also possesses Mega Charizard Y's Ground immunity, while being able to switch into and generate momentum off of Tapu Koko, an especially important threat to Fire teams that don't carry Alolan Marowak. It additionally takes far less from Stealth Rock damage. While it is true that Rotom-H doesn't have nearly the offensive presence or access to Drought, the benefits it offers over Mega Charizard Y are most certainly notable, and encourages the use of Mega Charizard X much more.

Then there's the introduction of Blacephalon. While Blacephalon doesn't possess Mega Charizard Y's Ground immunity or access to Drought, it does possess a higher Speed tier, allowing it to revenge kill threats such as Landorus-I and Garchomp that Mega Charizard Y is incapable of revenge killing. This is especially important to note, as the Ground matchup is one of the very few matchups that Mega Charizard Y does better in than Mega Charizard X. Blacephalon is also a much more substantial threat in the Water matchup, specifically balance Water. With its Choice Specs set, both Swampert+Mantine and Empoleon+Gastrodon builds(Swampert+Mantine being much more prevalent) will be severely pushed for safe switch-ins to a Shadow Ball, especially after a Beast Boost:

Calcs vs Balance Water

252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 160-190 (52.6 - 62.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Suicune: 280-331 (69.3 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Mega Swampert+Mantine:
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mantine: 163-193 (43.5 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery(Water isn't gonna be pushed to Defog, especially if they've already gotten up Stealth Rock against Fire)
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Swampert-Mega: 303-357 (75 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Empoleon+Gastrodon:
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 157-186 (42.2 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery(it can only come in once against an unboosted Shadow Ball)
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gastrodon: 385-454 (90.3 - 106.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This set especially in tandem with Mega Charizard X can improve this matchup much more than Mega Charizard Y can. Overall, Mega Charizard Y is just not worth a spot in S rank alongside the far superior Mega choice, and a Pokemon that can provide such necessary role compression between hazard setting, hazard removing, and halting setup sweepers with Yawn. Therefore, it deserves a drop to A rank.

And if necessary, here are the sample sets for both Blacephalon and Rotom-H:

Sample Sets

Blacephalon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Trick

Rotom-Heat @ Light Clay
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Defog

 

[Yung Dramps]

I think this nomination's gonna be a bit controversial:

Mega Charizard Y: S=>A (Fire)

Mega Charizard X has always been the superior mega in comparison to Mega Charizard Y, due to its effectiveness in far more matchups. However, in USUM, there's even more incentive not to use Mega Charizard Y.

I'll start with the increased viability of Rotom-H. Thanks to Defog, it's a much better option as not only a screens setter and bulky pivot, but also as a secondary hazard remover alongside Torkoal, a role that was previously filled by Mega Charizard Y. Mega Charizard X in particular benefits immensely from this screens support as a means of setting up with Dragon Dance, as do other setup sweepers like Z-Celebrate Victini and Volcarona. Rotom-H itself also possesses Mega Charizard Y's Ground immunity, while being able to switch into and generate momentum off of Tapu Koko, an especially important threat to Fire teams that don't carry Alolan Marowak. It additionally takes far less from Stealth Rock damage. While it is true that Rotom-H doesn't have nearly the offensive presence or access to Drought, the benefits it offers over Mega Charizard Y are most certainly notable, and encourages the use of Mega Charizard X much more.

Then there's the introduction of Blacephalon. While Blacephalon doesn't possess Mega Charizard Y's Ground immunity or access to Drought, it does possess a higher Speed tier, allowing it to revenge kill threats such as Landorus-I and Garchomp that Mega Charizard Y is incapable of revenge killing. This is especially important to note, as the Ground matchup is one of the very few matchups that Mega Charizard Y does better in than Mega Charizard X. Blacephalon is also a much more substantial threat in the Water matchup, specifically balance Water. With its Choice Specs set, both Swampert+Mantine and Empoleon+Gastrodon builds(Swampert+Mantine being much more prevalent) will be severely pushed for safe switch-ins to a Shadow Ball, especially after a Beast Boost:

Calcs vs Balance Water

252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 160-190 (52.6 - 62.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Suicune: 280-331 (69.3 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Mega Swampert+Mantine:
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mantine: 163-193 (43.5 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery(Water isn't gonna be pushed to Defog, especially if they've already gotten up Stealth Rock against Fire)
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Swampert-Mega: 303-357 (75 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Empoleon+Gastrodon:
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 157-186 (42.2 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery(it can only come in once against an unboosted Shadow Ball)
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gastrodon: 385-454 (90.3 - 106.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This set especially in tandem with Mega Charizard X can improve this matchup much more than Mega Charizard Y can. Overall, Mega Charizard Y is just not worth a spot in S rank alongside the far superior Mega choice, and a Pokemon that can provide such necessary role compression between hazard setting, hazard removing, and halting setup sweepers with Yawn. Therefore, it deserves a drop to A rank.

And if necessary, here are the sample sets for both Blacephalon and Rotom-H:

Sample Sets

Blacephalon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Trick

Rotom-Heat @ Light Clay
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Defog

Yup, I support. In my opinion, Zard Y is to Zard X on Fire as Lando-T is to Lando-I on Ground. Lando-T isn't bad at all on Ground, but Lando-I is such an important Pokemon for Ground teams, that Lando-T is frequently overshadowed, leading a likely S rank to be low A rank. Similarly, Zard X is just so much better than Y on Fire, especially as a sweeper on Rotom-H dual screens, which with the introduction of Defog on that mon, has become Fire's best playstyle. And when it comes to special breaking, smub showed how Blacephalon does so much better at breaking defensive cores, including Porygon2 + Chansey on Normal, both of which live in fear of being Tricked. Zard Y isn't bad, it's just that Zard X is often so much better, that it overshadows it. Definitely needs a drop.

 

[Haaku.]

I’m going to have to disagree with this nomination. Zard X and Y should not be compared to each other, as their roles are completely different and they benefit completely different matchups. Landorus-T and Landorus-I is a pretty horrible example because Landorus-I brings such an irreplaceable niche to Ground teams that no other Pokemon can do. You can actually make the argument that no other Pokemon can wallbreak as easily and as effectively as Zard Y. Specs Blacephalon is an even worse comparison as Specs isn’t even a good set in the Fire metagame, and it comes with its own opportunity cost of the much better Choice Scarf. Mentioning Blacephalon and Zard Y in contrast to each other is confusing. You’re supposed to used them together. Bringing up Defog on Zard Y is confusing as well, as Defog was never even good on it.

Actually, if anything should drop from Fire’s S ranks it should be Torkoal. Torkoal is a terrible Pokemon that carved itself a niche as Fire’s premier form of hazard control. It’s a pretty solid option for role compression, but thanks to the introduction of Defog Rotom-Heat, all of its roles are performed by better Pokemon. Specially Defensive Heatran is already a very common choice, and can opt to run Stealth Rock and lay down hazards much more reliably. Similarly, Rotom-Heat is much more efficient at removing hazards, since it is faster, immune to Spikes/tspikes/webs and cannot be spinblocked. Going back to the first paragraph, Zard Y is a much better Drought setter that has a very scary offensive presence, unlike Torkoal which just seems like a huge momentum drain. Like I said, it’s still a good Pokemon for role compression, but it’s no longer as essential or as metagame defining as it used to be.

 

[snow]

Pyukumuku: Unranked => C

Pyukumuku helps a lot in Gen 7 as a Specially Defensive Unaware Wall. With Block, Toxic, Recover and Soak it is able to trap and kill Pokemon that are somewhat of a nuisance to stall examples being Mega Venusaur, Toxapex and Ferrothorn. These are just examples of Pokemon Pyukumuku can beat that other Pokemon on stall Water might struggle vs. It also allows you to easily deal with Z Pokemon such as Victini, Kommo-o, Jirachi as well as beating Stored Power Mega Lati.

The Specially Defensive set lets you live heavy attacks from even the most broken powerful Pokemon.

Calcs

252 SpA Naganadel Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Pyukumuku: 126-148 (40.1 - 47.1%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Pyukumuku: 127-151 (40.4 - 48%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Pyukumuku: 138-164 (43.9 - 52.2%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Pyukumuku: 109-129 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Nihilego Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Pyukumuku: 116-138 (36.9 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Pyukumuku: 111-132 (35.3 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I thought it belonged as a C rank because I see more use for it on stall Water than the other Pokemon for their respected play style. For Example Pyukumuku is more useful for stall than Pokemon like Milotic and Araquanid are for their respected styles.

 

[Bluxio]

snip

Had to pop in from lurking to say that dropping torkoal to lower than S is a Completely unjustified and here’s why:

You say that torkoal is now outclassed in all of its roles by better pokemon which makes no sense imo. There is NO better rocker than torkoal on fire rn. You mention spdef Tran but in no reguards is spdef Tran a better rocker than torkoal as torkoal can actually spin away opposing hazards, put common defoggers to sleep, and can phase mons that try to set up on your rocks. Not to mention that the use of spdef Tran means that you no longer have a tran that beats toxapex which just makes the water matchup that much more impossible as well as make the poison matchup last an extra 100 turns because you can’t just kill pex immediately with Tran.

There is also no better remover than torkoal. According to you the replacement to torkoals rapid spin is rotom heat defog. I disagree for many reasons. You mention how it’s better because it’s faster, but this doesn’t really count for much because torkoal trades this speed which, I don’t know what you need to outspeed so badly, for far superior bulk and you also mention how it is immune to spikes, webs, and tspikes as another reason it’s better. For one, I don’t know why you decided to mention spikes because all the spikers in the meta right now (ferro, skarm, klefki, forretress if u stretch it) all immediately get pressured by torkoals lava plume with the exception of maybe klefki, who gets put to sleep or immediately spun on, or both. And if spikes are that massive of a deal you can just run air balloon on torkoal since it’s item literally doesn’t matter. Sticky webs don’t matter at all to torkoal as it’s speed tier is already bad so it doesn’t mind those, and you bring up tspikes, however tspikes are only relevant to two specific matchups, both of which the promary wincons (zard x/y and Tran) are completely unaffected. And sure, rapid spin can be blocked by ghosts whereas defog can’t, but exactly how many games do you see where fire gets up rocks more than once? Imagine being able to only set up rocks a minimal amount of times, but also defogging your own rocks away multiple times throughout the game if you manage to get them up.

I do agree that zard y CAN be a better sun setter than torkoal in SOME matchups, however the majority of the time fire appreciates the sun following immediate rocks or sun following immediate removal rather than the offensive presence. Also running zard y means you miss out on zard x, which is borderline better in certain matchups, and having the option is always better than being forced into one. Not to mention that the majority of fires wallbreaking power comes from sun, so imagine your only sun setter taking 50% every time it comes in if rocks are up. The role compression that torkoal has can immediately flip the pressure, taking you from an undesirable situation, directly into one where you have both sun and rocks up. Which can’t be overlooked.

The fact that torkoal not only role compresses, but role compresses so fucking well that you are actually limiting your teambuilding by not using it should warrant its s rank already. Just listen to yourself, a better remover is spdef rotom, a better rocker is spdef Tran, and a better drought user is zard y. Just you saying that means that if you don’t want to run torkoal, three of your mons, spread and all, are basically decided instantly. This alone should show you torkoal is worthy of S

s/o Torpid

 

[mushamu]

Togekiss (Flying) A --> B

As most balanced teams go, Flying runs a defensive core usually consisting of Mantine + Zapdos/Gliscor + Skarmory/Celesteela. That to be said, Flying does not have the room to run Togekiss as a cleric on Balanced Teams, as many Flying teams should invest in offensive presence outside of the usual defensive core. As a Scarfer Togekiss is easily outclassed by Lando-T, with better coverage in EdgeQuake and the ability to pivot with U turn, and Mantine outclasses Togekiss as a SpDef wall due to having superior bulk and a better defensive typing. Nasty Plot Togekiss is easily outsped and KO'd and very rarely breaks balanced cores. It's very hard running Togekiss to fill a certain role on your Flying team when you can just use one of the abovementioned Pokemon instead.

Here are the rest of the A ranked Pokemon and how they compare to Togekiss:

Mega Charizard Y has recently been dropped from the S ranks. Easily the best current A ranked Pokemon, Mega Charizard Y is able to dismantle many teams with powerful Fire Blasts and Solarbeams. Mega Charizard Y also gets coverage options such as Focus Blast and Roost for longivity. Huge threat to prepare for if you're playing Steel, and even other types such as Dark, Fairy, Electric, and Ground have trouble switching into it.

Celesteela is quite the defensive threat to prepare for. With mixed Defenses and access to Leech Seed, Celesteela is capable of wearing a team down with Leech Seed + Protect, while also using Beast Boost to snowball its Defenses. Along with that, Celesteela also gets notable coverage such as Flamethrower, Earthquake and Giga Drain, allowing it to both offensively and defensively threaten various teams. Definitely a threat you want to prepare for when building.

Dragonite's Choice Band set is capable of dismantling many cores by just clicking Outrage, Fire punch, and Earthquake. Additionally, Extreme Speeed allows it to pick off fragile Pokemon and revenge kill, and it's ability, Multiscale allows it to check Pokemon such as Mega Scizor and Azumarill, and the ever-infamous Mega Latias, even after a few boosts. Dragon Dance sets are also usable, as shown in pork chop man's Hyper Offensive Flying team.

Gliscor is Flying's best stallbreaker and can also be used as a Stealth Rock setter. Taunt Gliscor easily poses a huge threat to Balanced teams because of its Bulk combined with Poison heal and Roost. Knock Off can be used to hit Flying targets such as Celesteela, Staraptor and Skarmory, while also providing extra utility by removing Leftovers, Eviolites, whatever the fuck the opposing Pokemon is holding. With its Ground typing, Taunt, and Stealth Rock, Gliscor has found its way onto Flying by breaking many balanced cores while also providing an extra Electric immunity and Stealth rock setter.

If you compare Togekiss with the rest of the A ranks, Togekiss is definitley not on par with what Celesteela, Gliscor, Mega Charizard Y, and Dragonite can do and is by far the worst Pokemon in the rank. Scarf sets are very ineffective due to the amount of Steel there is in this metagame and that Togekiss is easily revenge killed by both opposing Scarfers and priority (most notably Bullet Punch). Cleric sets have fallen off due to Flying not having the teamslots to carry a cleric, and Flying, as a type, not struggling with status either way. I know that this Pokemon has been nominated down before, but Togekiss is a Pokemon I feel that has been long overdue a drop and would find a better home in the B rank along many more lesser used Pokemon.