Most effective/annoying new user of Trick in UU?

[JayHankEdLyon]

Chandie and Xatu and Sigil, oh my! Trick is friggin everywhere now.

I hate trick. Barring Prankster, you can't Taunt scarfers because they outspeed, nor can you set up a sub in time. Can't do anything on the switch to stop it unless you for some reason have a pokemon with Sticky Hold. It cannot be stopped.

While Trick Chandelure seems rull annoying and Trick Sigilyph, in my opinion, is a vast improvement over Psycho Shift (given its major counter, Snorlax, can't just rest off the status now and it can get Leftovers to boot), I'd have to say Zoroark is the most terrifying new user. A good player can just ruin a team with a trick out of nowhere.

I'm scared is what I'm saying. Do folks agree about Zoro, or do y'all think another poke is more effective? Will Trick be as annoying to everyone as it will be for me?

 

[Iridium]

trick is blocked by sub iirc

 

[A Fhaol Bhig]

So is Thunder Wave and Will o Wisp, your point?

I'm more interested in seeing how a Shadow Tag Chandlure would do with trick to be honest. But that won't be for some time.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

So is Thunder Wave and Will o Wisp, your point?

Heal Bell/Aromatherapy takes care of those, and ground/fire types are far more common than Sticky Hold.

I can't wait for Shadow Tag Chandie because that means OU Chandie.

 

[Iridium]

So is Thunder Wave and Will o Wisp, your point?

correcting his post
before the edit it said trick goes through sub

 

[Boltaway]

I know he's not strictly UU, but I use Claydol in UU to great effect with trick.

This is the set I use:

Claydol @ Choice Scarf
Levitate
252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spd
Timid Nature
Trick
Stealth Rock
Rapid Spin
Ice Beam

It tends to work great as a lead and can screw up a lot of pokemon, particularly those running Taunt and whatnot since Cladydol outspeeds them all (bar Whimsicott). Furthermore, it works great on Rapid Spinners since it assures me that they when they do decide to spin away my hazards, they'll be locked into spinning.

 

[Xubble]

I like Slowbro with Trick. Trick a Band onto Roserade or Zapdos on the switch, and have a hearty chuckle as your opponent rages.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Zoroark I think is so effective with Trick because of Illusion. With Mew gone up to OU, practically none of Zoroark's common Illusion partners know Trick, so when their "counter" comes in, they get tricked Specs/Scarf, so Zoroark's usefulness jumped tremendously as it can help give something like Heracross an easier time against the opponent's team.

Of course, Trick Chandelure is a big one too. Once Shadow Tag's released, that's a one-way trip to OU Ubers for Chandy right there. Stall teams and defensive cores will be destroyed, plain and simple. As for Sigilyph, while Trick is useful for Snorlax, Psycho Shift will still be more useful for everything else because with Psycho Shift + Flame Orb, you essentially have a 100% accurate Will-O-Wisp.

All I have to say for now.

 

[SJCrew]

Theoretical perfect accuracy Will-o-Wisps are cool until you miss your first Psycho Shift and realize it's only 90% accurate. But yeah, the point is essentially that Psycho Shift + Flame Orb is a more reliable burn, just not perfect.

Trick is not really going to affect Chandelure counters. Say your opponent has a Porygon-2. Oh no, I'm going switch in and destroy you anyway? CB or Tank Lax will just ignore the Specs and Pursuit you while Chandelure doesn't do anything about it. This will only affect CurseLax.

I consider Trick a pretty scrubby move overall. A lot of the time when people trick off a Choice item, it's way too early, they lose their revenge killer, and I get to sweep. This applies to most trickers actually: didn't you need that item in the first place? I'm not really afraid of your Modest Leftovers Slowbro.

And tricking off a shitty item on a Pokemon that can't use it to start with is a dumb idea. Always. >_> Plenty of good Pokemon can cripple their switch-ins without wasting a perfectly good moveslot/item. Instead of CB Slowbro, you could be using any combination of Twave, CM, and Psyshock to beat Roserade. CM defensive Spikes Roserade gets set up on as it switches in, Twave or a predicted switch-in into Psyshock OHKOs offensive. +1 Ice Beam OHKOs offensive Zapdos after rocks, and defensive Zapdos is weak enough to let you get another CM and recover. But as soon as you're healthy, attack so you don't get crit. This is the downfall of a lot of defensive boosters: too greedy, always want the +6 for no reason at all, don't backup plan for hax.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

Theoretical perfect accuracy Will-o-Wisps are cool until you miss your first Psycho Shift and realize it's only 90% accurate. But yeah, the point is essentially that Psycho Shift + Flame Orb is a more reliable burn, just not perfect.

I just think it takes care of certain counters better. I'm probably biased because of how easy it is for my Body Slam/WW/RestTalk Snorlax to take care of the poor guy.

Trick is not really going to affect Chandelure counters. Say your opponent has a Porygon-2. Oh no, I'm going switch in and destroy you anyway?

No, you're going to switch in and get a Choice Scarf tricked onto you and now you're essentially dead weight and Chandelure has one less counter. Not only is Porygon trapped in a move and easier to kill on that front, but it can't recover and has lost its Eviolite.

I don't think that's too shabby.

CB or Tank Lax will just ignore the Specs and Pursuit you while Chandelure doesn't do anything about it. This will only affect CurseLax.

First off, Curselax and the Snorlax I use are by far the most common types of Snorlax I've seen in UU (moreover, latest usage stats show 70% use Rest, so this isn't just anecdotal evidence, choice is relatively rare). Trick ruins those Snorlaxes.

Otherwise, if you suspect/know it's a threat even when it's been Tricked, then play like you normally would. Fire Blast/Shadow Ball/HP Fighting alone gives Chandie amazing coverage (or you could switch out HP Fighting for Energy Ball if you really hate Blastoise). With Trick as a last move, you not only have the potential to cripple certain pokemon, but you can free yourself from being locked if you find that the situation at hand requires such a situation.

But again, my defensive mindset might just mean I'm overthinking this. In any case I still think Zoro's gonna be annoying as hell with Illusion and Trick in his arsenal.

I consider Trick a pretty scrubby move overall. A lot of the time when people trick off a Choice item, it's way too early, they lose their revenge killer, and I get to sweep. This applies to most trickers actually: didn't you need that item in the first place? I'm not really afraid of your Modest Leftovers Slowbro.

And tricking off a shitty item on a Pokemon that can't use it to start with is a dumb idea. Always. >_> Plenty of good Pokemon can cripple their switch-ins without wasting a perfectly good moveslot/item. Instead of CB Slowbro, you could be using any combination of Twave, CM, and Psyshock to beat Roserade. CM defensive Spikes Roserade gets set up on as it switches in, Twave or a predicted switch-in into Psyshock OHKOs offensive. +1 Ice Beam OHKOs offensive Zapdos after rocks, and defensive Zapdos is weak enough to let you get another CM and recover. But as soon as you're healthy, attack so you don't get crit. This is the downfall of a lot of defensive boosters: too greedy, always want the +6 for no reason at all, don't backup plan for hax.

Scrubby players =/= scrubby move. CB Slowbro is a terrible idea.

 

[SJCrew]

No, you're going to switch in and get a Choice Scarf

Choice Scarf Chandelure is not a threat and neither is Leftovers Chandelure. Even if you trick my Porygon-2, you are countered. Are you running Fire Blast/Shadow Ball/Energy Ball? Countered. HP Fighting over Energy Ball? Pretty sure that's walled by Suicune, Milotic, and other bulky Water-types. Even with Trick, you completely fail to stop its counters from switching in and posing a threat to Chandelure. They will undoubtedly be less useful and die eventually, but that will be on the opponent's terms and not yours, because you failed to KO the Pokemon.

First off, Curselax and the Snorlax I use are by far the most common types of Snorlax I've seen in UU (moreover, latest usage stats show 70% use Rest, so this isn't just anecdotal evidence, choice is relatively rare). Trick ruins those Snorlaxes.

I don't really care about what's more common right now, as that can completely change under the knowledge that Chandelure can Trick. Tank/CB murder all Chandelure and are both very effective sets, so Snorlax's ability to counter is unaffected.

Trick should always be played as a last resort, but due to the nature of the move and its intended purpose, people usually want to cripple their check right away and have their Scarfer be more useful earlygame with the counter "crippled". But then you have to deal with not having a Scarfer anymore. But oh wait, you're countered if you leave the item on, so...

It's difficult for this to play the way you really want it to unless you get a predictable opponent with only one check. You can even get death fodder as you trick, or just another check. Cross your fingers and hope you don't miss, since that's really all the move amounts to.

Scrubby players =/= scrubby move. CB Slowbro is a terrible idea.

Failed reading comprehension, read the second part where I mention the item being more useful than the Trick. If you predict a Snorlax coming in and use Specs HP Fighting, you can go for a 3HKO, but if you trick, you have an alive Snorlax and a Leftovers Chandelure.

Have a nice day.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

First off, we clearly play differently. Second off, you listed a ridiculous scenario that's obviously an example of a scrub player rather than a scrub move.

No need to be so hostile and rude. Also no need to assume that just because you have a certain playstyle, everyone must therefore use that playstyle. Scarflure is most certainly a threat to certain teams. Maybe that's why the stats show that more Chandies use Scarf than LO or Specs.

Also lol 3HKO on Snorlax, considering again, Rest is the most common move used by Lax by a longshot (also way to backpedal on the stats, first acting like Resting Lax is in the "other" category next to offensive Lax and now saying you're just speculating it will eventually be because of trick, which sort of implies that trick'll be effective if it so radically changes Snorlax use).

Trick cripples common Laxes. HP Fighting does nothing. Is that enough to warrant its use? That depends on what type of team you have, but it certainly looks enticing if you want your Chandelure to be, well, a lure. Or if you need Scarflure for a specifically speedy threat, which once neutralized allows Chandie to drop its scarf to free up its moves.

Edit: oh lord, now I feel bad, someone actually posted a CB Slowbro set here. Yeah, that's pretty gimmicky and useless.

 

[SJCrew]

Second off, you listed a ridiculous scenario that's obviously an example of a scrub player rather than a scrub move.

I don't even know what you're responding to, I didn't list any ridiculous scenario. You can trick and get the counter (IF you get the counter), but the power/speed loss leaves Chandelure easier to check. Trick hardly affects Chandelure's counters, and I probably wouldn't use it unless it were a bluff with Flame Orb.

(also way to backpedal on the stats, first acting like Resting Lax is in the "other" category next to offensive Lax and now saying you're just speculating it will eventually be because of trick, which sort of implies that trick'll be effective if it so radically changes Snorlax use).

Again...wrong. You have zero reading comprehension. Zero. I did not say anything about usage at first, you did. I just forgot about Resttalk Lax because I'm more of an offensive player and don't use it at all. The Snorlax I favor are the ones that can smash walls/sweepers hard and Pursuit Ghosts.

Trick will annoy stall players, but Resttalk Snorlax does not care because it does not actually kill any of the common Chandelure sets, it just Whirlwinds them out for hazards damage or PPsalls them...there's no reason you should assume that a set that isn't designed to kill Chandelure outright will stop doing so in the first place doing so after Trick. He will still force you to come in on rocks and Whirlwind while you hit him for no damage.

Trick cripples common Laxes. HP Fighting does nothing

35.9% - 42.5%

I've used Specs Lure in a Bo3 vs a stall player before, which I won. This was part of the reason why: instead of just letting Snorlax switch in forever, which he'd do even with his tricked Choice Specs, hit him where it hurts. If he's Resttalk, all he can do is Whirlwind. That will be enough against Leftovers Chandelure who tricked his item and can't deal enough damage to him, but not a smart lure player who keeps his Specs to use it the way it was intended to begin with.

And Trick is still a scrub move because it encourages a player to give up their item in the face of a check when it's usually a bad idea. Trick should always be a last resort, and if there is a more useful move to put there (like Volt Switch, U-turn), don't hesitate to do so.

I'll concede that Trick can ruin the synergy of a stall team somewhat, which is probably why you're so worried about it, being primarily a stall player, but offense players really aren't going to mind a couple of new Trick users to the tier.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Specs Chandelure will just destroy P2 and Lax with HP Fighting in like three hits if they are healthy but frankly P2 is only sometimes healthy because it cannot hold Leftovers. Snorlax is not usually too healthy either because its the only good special wall that can beat most any Special attacker in UU (Roserade, Raikou, Yanmega etc) which at first glance seems like a good thing but if people decide to double up or at least pair Chandelure with said Special attacker then lack of good recovery and hazards present means Snorlax can easily crumple to what its supposed to beat. If you are using stall then good luck!

I think this is partially what has been said right?

So my question becomes whats the point of using Trick to cripple Snorlax and friend when you can just burn right through them - I would rather be facing a dead Snorlax than a crippled one and I would rather be abusing a Specs Chandelure than a Leftovers one.

Scarf Tricking looks much more usable, maybe only on paper, because you are generally only going to Trick stuff on a wall. The Scarf user is probably not going to be able to break through any walls because Scarf users are very weak for the most part because they rarely have even a nature boost let alone an item or move boost. So instead of being able to break walls you are left with the only option of crippling them, with a Choice Scarf. Of course you shouldn't be giving away your Scarfed Chandelure if you notice your opponent has a Cobalion if you are weak to it because you shouldn't lose your revenge killer so early so relying on Trick still seems pretty stupid, you have a choice between someone walling you or someone sweeping you if your Trick user is your revenge killer.

I do not particularly see whats so scary about Zoroark learning Trick. The Choice sets that abuse Trick will probably run Dark Pulse/Grass Knot/Flamehrower or perhaps you will be using U-Turn alongside Trick maybe over Grass Knot. It is basically impossible to tell if you were fighting Zoroark until the illusion went out or until it used a move and that alongside powerful coverage are the only reasons why Zoroark is dangerous. For a Specs set at least, Trick seems to have very little merit. Everything you are able to cripple with good prediction you can just as easily kill. As for bulky waters Milotic gets strangled in two Grass Knots (and I bet a Specs Milotic Scald could OHKO Zoroark), Swampert dies to just one and Empoleon gets destroyed by Focus Blast (tricking on Specs to it may cripple him but it won't let Zoro win in any case). Snorlax still beats you even if crippled and Focus Blast is probably a risky 2HKO with Specs with a bit of prior damage. Registeel melts to two Flamethrowers with Specs. Meanwhile if you lose your Choice Specs you lose lots of utility as a cleaner. Heracross can now survive a Flamethrower, Zapdos
can easily survive a Dark Pulse even after Stealth Rock, all of Kingdra, Shaymin, Roserade and even Nidoking take noticeably less damage.

What can a Trick/Dark Pulse/Flamethrower/Grass Knot set do that one with Focus Blast over Trick can do (and I would be using U-Turn but if you want Trick then Focus Blast seems better)?

When talking about Trick Zoroark, Choice Specs must only be half the problem though, of course we can abuse Choice Scarf. For the reasons I just said above, Trick Scarf may not be completely useless. Personally I just think Scarf Zoroark is bad because it is pretty weak although the idea behind it may not be so bad. You cannot revenge kill things like Cobalion or Heracross without a defense drop and you cannot revenge kill Kingdra or Porygon-Z until they are significantly weakened (flinch will come in handy I suppose). Forget about Togekiss. I feel like using Scarf Raikou or something would be better because it has more power (because it uses Rash nature and higher power STAB) and can take a hit (far bulkier even with Rash). Zoroark will just die to anything it cannot immediately revenge unlike Raikou which stands a chance.

Of course I have only ever used Specs Zoroark so apart from bias I might be completely ignorant of how Scarf Zoroark should be played. If you like to lead with it to get surprise kills that is fine but Trick really is not helping you in this case. If you want to use it to lead to lure and cripple walls, that is fine too but hopefully you are packing two Scarfers then because you just lose your (mediocre) revenge killer.

Anyways I agree with anyone who says Trick is a sub-par move, it just seems so pointless on most Specs users and it is just a tad too dangerous to go around losing your revenge killer to cripple a wall (which in many cases may still defeat the Trickster).

 

[Ivymo16]

I think you guys are failing to realize one point, the fact that p2 is ONLY 3hkoed by specs hp fighting is what the opponent wants because that means, barring hax, p2 can twave your specs lure and recover stall and fire off tbolts. A 3 hit kill on p2 is nothing since it has recover and most have twave so now there is a chance you wont even attack

As for snorlax most of the resting snorlax ive faced have crunch and body slam with sleep talk, so hp fighting isnt such a secure kill on a set like that since all they have to do is rest talk, hope the get crunch, rest again as soon as they wake up, and then rinse and repeat

In both of these case (which are quite common in my experiences) trick would be the better option over trying to overpower these special walls

 

[Scoopapa]

Don't Trick your Scarf away if your opponent has a sweeper that you can't stop any other way... team preview makes this pretty easy to figure out. It's an easy mistake but it's also an easily avoidable mistake.

Tricking a Band or Specs is a lot more risky because it can put you in a really tough spot. The knee-jerk counter to this would be "why is it bad, if their mon was better off with a choice item why wouldn't they have had it to begin with?". The problem is, they will have switched in something that forces you out, and if they gained a power boosting item, you are now on the defensive switching into a choice-boosted attack. Maybe the pokemon is made somewhat less effective but it only matters if they don't make it a good trade with that first choiced turn.

That brings me to the next thing: Trick isn't something to slap on just any team. A frail sweeper that can't afford to trade blows with the opponent would rather that you attacked a wall than tricked it a scarf. A bulky offense mon who is more worried about Toxic + recovery than weak attacks is going to be a lot happier with the scarf.

In general, a team with many immunities, 4x and strong resists is ideal so that choice-locked mon always = momentum for you. Know the roles of your team members more specifically than "this deals with fast mons" so that you know exactly when you can and can't afford to trick the scarf. If there are too many pokemon that make losing the scarf a liability, then you need a backup plan for some of them. If you can't do this, then run a fourth attack or switch to a mon who doesn't need Trick to be an effective Scarfer.

To answer the OP based on these principles, Chandelure is probably the best new Trick user because it was a good Scarfer to begin with.

 

[reachzero]

I think you guys are failing to realize one point, the fact that p2 is ONLY 3hkoed by specs hp fighting is what the opponent wants because that means, barring hax, p2 can twave your specs lure and recover stall and fire off tbolts. A 3 hit kill on p2 is nothing since it has recover and most have twave so now there is a chance you wont even attack

As for snorlax most of the resting snorlax ive faced have crunch and body slam with sleep talk, so hp fighting isnt such a secure kill on a set like that since all they have to do is rest talk, hope the get crunch, rest again as soon as they wake up, and then rinse and repeat

In both of these case (which are quite common in my experiences) trick would be the better option over trying to overpower these special walls

Special Defensive Porygon2, especially with Thunder Wave, is really, really weak and I would thank my opponent for using it. Specs Chandelure is best off using four attacks against pretty much everything that will usually switch in, and the only way I could see that changing would be if Chansey dropped again (in which case I would consider Trick > Energy Ball). For Scarf Chandelure, I see more of a point, but Scarf Chandelure is significantly worse than Heracross, Krookodile, Darmanitan, Flygon, etc. in terms of revenge killing, in my opinion, due to it's lower speed tier.

Energy Ball really is very useful for Blastoise especially, and it's nice to be able to straight-up OHKO Swampert early in a game. Since HP Fighting already does tons of damage to Snorlax and Porygon2, I'd rather have Energy Ball's added versatility than the ability to exchange a third of my damage capacity for crippling these two Pokemon. Remember, Tricking away your Specs means you no longer have Specs, which means Chandelure is a LOT weaker for the rest of the battle.

 

[Zarco]

Trick is good. If you can afford to forfeit your item, (eg you don't need that scarfer to revenge something specific) you can often get an "effective KO" for your team. If your opponent was relying on their Umbreon or P2 and you limit it to one move, it's hard pressed to wall you and the rest of your team can demolish it. Eliminating half of a defensive core stops a balanced or defensive team stops them from simply switching back and forth between then to take you on and gives you an opening to break through them (eg with Umbreon tricked you can set up with SubCM Raikou, which beats their Blastoise, the second half of their core)