Move Equality (Playable) Whirlpool, Fire Spin, Infestation & Sand Tomb are now banned (see post 193)

Meet this guy.

Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Trait: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spe/4 Def
Jolly Nature
-Secret Power/Headbutt
-Quick Attack
-Swords Dance
-Storm Throw

As I already mentioned when talking about Pangoro, Storm Throw is effectively a 150 base power move, so it hits very hard even without STAB. Notably, the power increase over Close Combat lets Pinsir OHKO Rotom-W at +2, doing a lot more damage to Skarmory at +2, reliably OHKOing with Storm Throw+Quick Attack offensive checks such as Mega Diancie, Mega Aero, Raikou and Mega Manectric after rocks, and avoiding defense drops.

Btw I screwed up with my previous post, Covet isn't like Knock Off, but like Thief, meaning it should be never used over Secret Power or Headbutt on Mega Lopunny(or likely any Pokémon for that matter).

Close Combat is plain bad when Rock Smash is aviable on Hera :/
Rock Smash, CC, whatever. The point being that you need a single-hit Fighting move to deal with Ferrothorn, and also that Mega Cross probably shouldn't be used.
 
Why use Quick Attack on pinsir? When feint exist? iirc, it should also be 80BP. And has +2 priority. Also:

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Storm Throw vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W on a critical hit: 263-310 (86.7 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

EDIT: and then I look in the "unchanged move" list....and find feint there :( nvm
 
Infestation Goodra anyone?

Goodra @ Binding Band
Ability: Gooey
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Infestation
- Dragon Breath
- Absorb/Sludge Bomb
- Toxic

Partial trapping moves are now viable in their own right. Exerything else is experimental. Absorb hits water types hard, while Sludge Bomb is great for faries. It interferes with Dragon Breath though, so watch out for that.
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
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Would Manaphy work in this meta? I imagine that a Tail Glow to Scald set would be pretty nice.
Tail Glow+buffed Scald+coverage is amazing.

Something that interests me is Parabolic Charge. Heliolisk is significantly buffed with it in its arsenal, being able to run Parabolic Charge, Hyper Voice and filler (Volt Switch and Surf or HP Grass probably), althoug it is debatable as to whether it will be worth using over anything else.
 
I just thought about Barbaracle, who receives buffed Razor Shell, Rock Smash, Smack Down, and Aerial Ace.
Tough Claws Rock Smash really helps it out.

Barbaracle white Herb / Focus Sash / Life Orb
Trait: Tough Claws
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Adamant Nature
-Shell Smash
-Razor Shell
-Smack Down ,which for some reason isn't a contact move :'(
-Rock Smash

+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 252-297 (61.4 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Barbaracle Smack Down vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 309-364 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Rock Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 326-384 (92.6 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Rock Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 299-352 (92.5 - 108.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
 

joethemaster

Intermolecular Despots and Kittens
Volcarona @ Leftovers
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Struggle Bug
- Fiery Dance
- Quiver Dance
- Giga Drain/Hidden Power Ground

I really like struggle bug in this meta, its a bug buzz with a definite sp attack drop, if youre up against a sp attacker, you can QD then spam that and it will become very difficult to take you down, allowing for more QDs. Fiery Dance with the boost becomes a very nice STAB with the boost of sp attack on the side. Giga drain/HP Ground are both viable options, depending on what kind of coverage you need. Heatran becomes setup fodder if you run HP Ground, but youre walled by keldeo, and vice versa.
-1 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 230-272 (73.9 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 302-356 (93.4 - 110.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (Giga wasnt given the BP boost, so it would KO)
 
Power-up Punch is better on Barbaracle. Overkill boosting is always a good thing. Rock Tomb is also probably a better option, since your Rock type move will probably kill anything that you might want to bring to the ground for teammates.

Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force/Iron Fist
EVs: 124 HP/252 Atk/128 Spe
Adamant Nature
-Power-up Punch
-Ice Punch
-Poison Jab
-Mach Punch

128 Speed EVs allow to outrun Clefable and everything slower i.e. Azumarill. This guy is a vicious wallbreaker which 2HKOs everything in its path, even Skarmory. The ability mostly depends on preference. Sheer Force ignores Life Orb recoil and gives a larger boost, including non-punch attacks such as Poison Jab and Rock Tomb, while Iron Fist doesn't cancel the attack boost of Power-up Punch and boosts Mach Punch.


I'm curious to hear who is the most nerfed mon in your opinion. I can think about Victini(relied on 180 bp stab and 130/110 bp coverage to be good), Mega Pidgeot(loses its only niche over Tornadus-T), Tyrantrum(loses its Head Smash niche) and Exploud(loses Boomburst niche), though the latter wasn't exactly good to begin with. I can't think about any other though, everybody else who has lost some attacking power i.e. Mega Lopunny or Mega Charizard X has made up with having more reliable attacks with crazy good secondary effects.
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Power-up Punch is better on Barbaracle. Overkill boosting is always a good thing. Rock Tomb is also probably a better option, since your Rock type move will probably kill anything that you might want to bring to the ground for teammates.

Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force/Iron Fist
EVs: 124 HP/252 Atk/128 Spe
Adamant Nature
-Power-up Punch
-Ice Punch
-Poison Jab
-Mach Punch

128 Speed EVs allow to outrun Clefable and everything slower i.e. Azumarill. This guy is a vicious wallbreaker which 2HKOs everything in its path, even Skarmory. The ability mostly depends on preference. Sheer Force ignores Life Orb recoil and gives a larger boost, including non-punch attacks such as Poison Jab and Rock Tomb, while Iron Fist doesn't cancel the attack boost of Power-up Punch and boosts Mach Punch.


I'm curious to hear who is the most nerfed mon in your opinion. I can think about Victini(relied on 180 bp stab and 130/110 bp coverage to be good), Mega Pidgeot(loses its only niche over Tornadus-T), Tyrantrum(loses its Head Smash niche) and Exploud(loses Boomburst niche), though the latter wasn't exactly good to begin with. I can't think about any other though, everybody else who has lost some attacking power i.e. Mega Lopunny or Mega Charizard X has made up with having more reliable attacks with crazy good secondary effects.
I'd slash Thunder Punch with both P-Jab and Ice Punch as it allows it to hit Gyarados and Suicune significantly harder. Also, IMO it would be better to push the speed up to to 208 to outpace BD Azumarill and OHKO with either P-Jab or T-Punch so that it doesn't outpace and KO you with Play Rough.

Also, I think that Tyrantrum is about as good if not better because it now gets 150 BP Crunch, Fire Fang and Ice Fang for coverage due to Strong Jaw, while it can just run Rock Tomb for STAB (i.e. another base 150 attack).
 
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I really like struggle bug in this meta, its a bug buzz with a definite sp attack drop
Lower-power moves with definite side effects:
  • Wrap/Bind/Infestation/Whirlpool/Sand Tomb/Fire Spin/Clamp (trapping)
  • Nuzzle (paralysis)
  • Leech Life/Absorb/Mega Drain/Parabolic Charge/Draining Kiss (drain)
  • Power-Up Punch (+1 Atk to self)
  • Acid Spray (-2 SpD)
  • Struggle Bug (-1 SpD)
  • Flame Charge (+1 Spe to self)
  • Snarl/Mystical Fire (-1 SpA)
  • Mud Shot/Icy Wind/Electroweb/Rock Tomb/Low Sweep/Glaciate (-1 Spe)
  • Chatter (confusion)
 
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Martin

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is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Lower-power moves with definite side effects:
  • Wrap/Bind/Infestation/Whirlpool/Sand Tomb/Fire Spin/Clamp (trapping)
  • Nuzzle (paralysis)
  • Leech Life/Absorb/Mega Drain/Parabolic Charge/Draining Kiss (drain)
  • Power-Up Punch (+1 Atk to self)
  • Acid Spray (-2 SpD)
  • Struggle Bug (-1 SpD)
  • Flame Charge (+1 Spe to self)
  • Snarl/Mystical Fire (-1 SpA)
  • Mud Shot/Icy Wind/Electroweb/Rock Tomb/Low Sweep/Glaciate (-1 Spe)
  • Chatter (confusion)
Just a knitpick, but Whirlpool remains un-changed due to being boosted v.s. a pokemon in the semi-invulnerable half of Dive. Also, Rock Smash is a good option on some Pokemon as well.
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Eh. Its been a few days, so I feel like a double-post isn't unjustified.

Anyway. The thread is kinda stagnant atm. So I want to get discussion going, and the best way to do so is to host a tournament which will allow people an easier opportunity to try things out as opposed to a load of theorymonning. However, I want your opinions on how it'd be handled. There are two options that could be done (unless there is a third option that I'm not thinking of), and they are as follows:
  1. Have it at a set time and the timing be arkward (I am able to do 2:30 EST at the latest due to my time zone, household and lack of mobile to host).
  2. The tournament to be done with a certain period of time under which everyone gets their rounds finished but it dragging out.
Please could I get your opinions on this as I really don't want this thread/meta to die.
 
I was wondering how exactly does Talonflame work in this meta? Brave Bird has fixed damage so it's base power will be decreased from 120 to 100, but gale wings give it priority, and priority moves have unchanging base powers. Can someone please clarify what actually happens?

On a side note, chatter seems a little OP, 100 bp flying move with 100% confusion chance? No thanks.
 
I think that Talonflame's Flying moves will still be 100 base power because they aren't inherently priority, but are priority because of the ability. Which is great news because it can run Aerial Ace for no recoil now.

Chatter may be very powerful but it is still aviable only on Chatot, which is still a terrible mon, and has also to face a Boomburst nerf.
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
It's annoying and uncompetitive as all hell, and gives chatot's only niche a huge boost.
No, chatots only real niche is nasty plot hard hitting which it does with boomburst. The massive nerf to boomburst makes it mediocre, and all it can do now is chatter opponents. Not nearly as threatening as it was when it could confuse you and then hit super hard.
 
When I was talking about Chatot's only niche, I was talking about in this meta. Obviously his niche in PU is Nasty Plot Boomburst, but in Move Equality, its only niche is NP + Chatter. And once again, Chatter is uncompetitive.
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Chatot is just plain inviable now. While Chatter is nice and all, it is basically placing it in a 50:50, meaning that it is going to have to hope it can get multiple NPs set up while not being hit. IMO, you are better off using a more powerful, more consistent and possibly faster/bulkier Nasty Plot user such as Thundurus(-T) or Manaphy (not Nasty Plot, but Tail Glow is a better NP anyway and it now uses three powerful attacks as opposed to three moderately powerful/weak attacks)

Agreed that Chatter is uncompetitive :]
 
What about Physical Nidoking?


Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Poison Tail
- ThunderPunch
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake/Sucker Punch


Everything hits harder except for Earthquake (Earth Power still outclasses it)
 
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What about Physical Nidoking?


Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Poison Tail
- ThunderPunch
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake/Sucker Punch

Everything hits harder except for Earthquake (Earth Power still ouclasses it)
You can always use Bulldoze, which is also boosted by Sheer Force.
 
But Bulldoze doesn't get boosted, so, even with sheer force boost, eartquake does more damage
That IS true. It stays at 60 BP since it gets weakened by Grassy Terrain.

How about Drill Run? It doesn't get the Sheer Force boost, but it's better than Earthquake because of its increased Critical Hit Ratio. Only problem is the trolly 95% accuracy. So the options are either perfect accuracy or more critical hits.
 
That IS true. It stays at 60 BP since it gets weakened by Grassy Terrain.

How about Drill Run? It doesn't get the Sheer Force boost, but it's better than Earthquake because of its increased Critical Hit Ratio. Only problem is the trolly 95% accuracy. So the options are either perfect accuracy or more critical hits.
Drill Run has a very slightly higher damage output overall, but I would personally stick with Earthquake for the sole reason that it's not a contact move, and as such, random Ferrothorn/Garchomp switch-ins aren't so painful.
 
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