Metagame Murkrow + Misdreavus in BW2 LCPL

[Rowan]

We've started having a Krow-less tour, and from the games I have seen so far, Misdreavus is dominating the metagame. Lots of people dislike Krow+Missy and consider them broken/extremely over centralising.

Because we want LCPL to have a good metagame, we have been considering banishing them for LCPL.

This thread is to have some discussion on people's opinions about the banishment of them.

I will make a decision at the end of the thread.

If they are banned for LCPL, that doesn't necessarily mean they'll be banned from future BWLC tours, and we'll review the situation after LCPL ends.

Please post discussion about the two mons, whether they should be gone or not, normal suspect-like stuff.

 

[Rowan]

I'll start off with a post of my own.

On Murkrow, the LO set is impossible to switch in to, there is nothing that isn't 2HKOd by Brave Bird/Sucker Punch/Heat Wave/Hidden Power Grass. In my experience you have to rely on scarfers that resist sucker punch to revenge it, so mienfoo, magnemite, scraggy, but more often than not Krow will still take out your Pokemon. Team building for the non-krow BWLC tour is a lot easier without it in the metagame. You still have to prepare for birds such as Vullaby, Taillow, and Doduo, but there are Pokemon that can still beat them without having to rely on your bird-check, and if you have a counter, they can't just remove them as easily like Murkrow can. The metagame is just a lot better without it in.

As for Misdreavus, it can easily switch into loads of Pokemon because of its fantastic bulk, and there's not a lot that can take on the Shadow Ball+HP fighting combo. Checks are easy to get past with the last moveslot being Tbolt/Will-o-wisp/psychic/sub/taunt which makes it easy to get round counters. It is an incredibly centralising Pokemon, and is just on another power-level to the other Pokemon in LC.

I personally think the metagame will be much more enjoyable without these 2 Pokemon in it. Teambuilding is now less restrictive, meaning there is a bit more room for variety within teams, and space to check other threats. Most games involving the Pokemon seem to end up with who manages to abuse them most effectively.

From someone that played LC before the unbans, I can safely say that the metagame had a lot more variety. and was at a much more balanced state than it is now.

 

[Kingler]

Missy is generally annoying as fuck to play against even if you basically assume a set of WoW slash Taunt/np/shadow ball/coverage because it basically FORCES you to run a dedicated check (sball pory, vullaby, you know the ones) or get a 1v1 exchange at worst (for example, a lot of sand teams basically need to pray missy doesnt have tuant so lileep can toxic it, or sac a mon and deal decent damage enough for drilbur or w/e to revenge kill). I mean krow is generally accepted as borked so i won't go into that. I will say that I haven't played BW LC in over a year but i'd played a lot back in 2013 and i retained a lot of meta knowledge from then (i didn't consider krow/missy borked then but i was accustomed to that meta and it was basically the first meta i really got into so there's that). But yeah, would love to see missy/krow banned as I think sand will still have enough countermeasures and slower teams won't be afraid of getting bopped.

 

[Coconut]

I agree with the idea of a Murkrow + Missy ban from LCPL (and all future BW tours) because I do not believe they should have been unbanned in the first place. They are both extremely over-centralizing and create a very toxic metagame.

Murkrow in general is a crazy poke. The extremely large variety of options that it can run without an issue is insane. When it's a Prankster set, Sub, Twave, Roost and Haze/Featherdance or even something more gimmicky, it can be extremely frustrating to play against. On the other hand, an offensive set with Life Orb or Choice Scarf could easily take out a Pokemon or two without any kind of fear. It has an extremely scary Attack, Special Attack and even one of the best speed tiers in the metagame. By far the main reason to not have Krow in this metagame, is that you absolutely need to build counters to it on every team. Note that I said counters with an S. Chances are, Krow will be able to handle it. With proper play and prediction, Krow can eliminate most of it's checks. Krow creates frustration, and people already think this metagame is janky.

Missy, like Murkrow, has amazing offensive presence and with it's coverage of Shadow Ball and Hidden Power Fite, most mons cannot survive a 2HKO. With a Nasty Plot this thing becomes a wrecking ball of destruction. It has support moves like crazy like Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, Destiny Bond, TWave, Sub and even Heal Bell. It's Defensive options are also solid. 60/60/85 Defenses and Levitate ruins many potent offensive threats.

Playing our current BW almost feels like playing Ubers, there's so many things that are easy to abuse. When the first person abuses one of these two in questions, it snowballs really hard, almost to the point where it is impossible to comeback.

 

[tazz]

Honestly I think that if Missy and Murkrow are banned from this tour they should be banned from future tours, as we shouldn't be able to change the meta just for the tour. I think that both of them are potentially broken, but I just don't think that they should be unbanned from this tour only, as then it's not really BW2LC in the state that it is in.

 

[Golden009]

I agree that Murkrow and Misdreavus should both be banned, simply because you have a million options you can run with them together, and there's almost no way to prepare for someone who knows what they're doing with them. Then again, I don't play BWLC much, so take my opinions with a grain of salt.

 

[mad0ka]

apt-get ZoroarkForever

 

[Akkeshi]

I'm a little surprised to see this as a discussion. I wasn't a greatly active player during early BW LC but it is in my understanding that both of these were unbanned by the LC community and remained unbanned until the X&Y metagame. If you want to remove Pokemon that largely characterized a metagame you're not going to be playing the same metagame. It would be the equivalent of OU re-banning Kyurem-B from BW tournaments. BW is over and Missy and Murkrow are both understandably banned from ORAS LC but banning them from a BW tour makes it seem like people don't want to play BW LC.

 

[Heysup]

I think from a purely competitive standpoint, yes, those two Pokemon are broken (moreso Murkrow and because of its absence, Missy - much like how Gligar became broken after things like Sneasel and Yangela were banned) and frankly, I have always thought that.

However I think it's a little silly to be talking about banning Pokemon from a metagame that's practically dead and finalized. It's a shitty metagame, sure, but it's the shitty metagame that blarajan or whoever the leader was and the community decided on. I think it should stay as it was. I would be rolling in my grave if in a few years there's some punk ass new users talking about banning shit like Gothita and Diglett.

This isn't quite as silly as talking about banning Swirlix from Yanma + Tangela's metagame but the sentiment is the same.

 

[Rowan]

These are valid concerns, and concerns I stuck by, until OU set a precedent considering banning ChloroDrought in BW for the wcop. I wasn't gonna do anything but with the precedent that McM set with OU, I felt it was an okay time to do so.

No community decided on the metagame, the unbans were just done with not even an explanation from the council, besides v saying 'they're unbanned now' (I looked this up earlier today, it's literally just like a 2 line post.

idk if 'punk ass new users' was directed at me, but I was around before they originally got unbanned.

There was lots of crys for (particularly murkrow) to be dealt with during the final few months of BW2 that were largely ignored.

imho, i felt like we didn't have time to finish tiering the metagame.

people like you, heysup, and loads more hate the bw2 metagame, i don't see what the problem with doing something about it is.

It would be the equivalent of OU re-banning Kyurem-B from BW tournaments. BW is over and Missy and Murkrow are both understandably banned from ORAS LC but banning them from a BW tour makes it seem like people don't want to play BW LC.

it's the equivalent of bwOU banning chlorodraught from wcop. which they are doing.

 

[tcr]

Wow ok rowan..

Anyway, while I do believe that Murkrow is broken, I do not believe Missy should be banned. There are actually a few good Missy checks and counters, outside of the standard Pory+Vullaby. For example, Scraggy easily sets up on any Missy set, not fearing WoW because of Shed Skin. Drilbur still does 50-60% with Shadow Claw, Lileep still walls it, Snover deals massive damage, MB Drilbur 2hkoes meaning it cant switch in and then burn to set up, Houndour is p cool, and Pawniard still checks non wow sets. In teambuilding, I havent yet had a aproblem checking Misdreavus, in fact its opened up to some pretty cool strats.

As to the idea that banning them wouldn't be playing the same BW LC, if some people still play BW LC then the meta is still alive. Unfortunately, it literally cannot get better. Its extremely hard to innovate against Murkrow / Misdreavus / Mienfoo / Perma weather, so the metagame would most likely stay as is. And if that metagame is shit (which it was, it was literally either Krow 2hkoing everything or speed ties every game) then it should be fixed. As Rowan said, a precedent had already been set with the banning of Chlorodrought, that it is possible to ban things from old metagames

 

[Coconut]

I remember the main reason we didn't even put up a suspect towards the end of BW2 was because it was too much of a hassle and that XY was coming soon anyway.

 

[Heysup]

These are valid concerns, and concerns I stuck by, until OU set a precedent considering banning ChloroDrought in BW for the wcop. I wasn't gonna do anything but with the precedent that McM set with OU, I felt it was an okay time to do so.

No community decided on the metagame, the unbans were just done with not even an explanation from the council, besides v saying 'they're unbanned now' (I looked this up earlier today, it's literally just like a 2 line post.

idk if 'punk ass new users' was directed at me, but I was around before they originally got unbanned.

There was lots of crys for (particularly murkrow) to be dealt with during the final few months of BW2 that were largely ignored.

imho, i felt like we didn't have time to finish tiering the metagame.

people like you, heysup, and loads more hate the bw2 metagame, i don't see what the problem with doing something about it is.

punk ass new users was more so directed at all of us (even though lots of us were around in bw 2) mostly just remarking on the fact that the community is largely different.

And I think the bolded point is probably the most valid concern here, that to re-ban them without any due process does not make sense. As much as I hate processes and "testing" things we already know a lot about, I don't think we have a tried and true council to make this decision for BW 2 and it doesn't entirely make sense to use the current ORAS one.

And I should say: I don't think removing 2 major offensive threats would make the BW metagame any less painful. (tbh i think eviolite and permanent are why i hate bw so much)

 

[boo836]

Also cork you're kinda a punk.

Just gonna add that while I disagree with the idea about banning both (but I don't play BW2 so that doesn't matter).however I would like to note that Blarajan HAS expressed some regret towards BW2. I think that we should ask him, as a matter of courtesy.

blarajan

 

[blarajan]

I didn't make changes to BW2 b/c XY was coming out and I didn't feel like making waves for a finished generation. I preferred not to look retroactively as BW LC did not affect any important tournaments like BW OU and UU / RU / NU (for SPL). I have no objections for this proposal as LCPL is worthless anyways. I think it would be fun.

I personally think BW2 is better without Murkrow and Misdreavus and have no objections to the current leadership taking measures as they see fit.

Except for macle. Don't let him do anything.

 

[iss]

Oh boy- I check Smogon for the first time in months and there's a BW2 thread. Nice.

re: metagame changes: At the end of BW2, there was a discussion of a Speed Boost ban (unbanning Yanma/Carvanha). EM and I agreed that shaking up the metagame that late wasn't a good idea: it'd force an entire analysis overhaul in just four months and simply wasn't worth the slight positive gain. BW2 is nice and dead at this point, so if those who play in LCPL actually want this done, go for it I guess.

As for the actual bans, I've got a couple of thoughts.

Murkrow: Those who played LC in 2012 might remember that Murkrow (and sand, I guess) was pretty damn powerful. I've always had an inkling toward Eviolite SubRoost (heh) and that was definitely the most common threat at the time. People employed a wide variety of counters, mostly Steels (I remember a lot of Pawniard back then). When we found Porygon (and later Magnemite/Tirtouga), Murkrow really stalled out- Eviolite sets just didn't have the power to punch through things (although they were still really good- I can personally attest). Late in the meta (mid-2013) I started seeing a pretty big shift back toward LO, trying to catch its major counters (BB 2HKOes Porygon as I'm sure you all know). Is it worth a ban? Personally, I don't think so- LO sets are inherently limited by HP and Eviolite sets just don't deal enough damage. On the other hand, modern BW2 has gotten really offensive, but I think there just needs to be more metagame movement (it's obviously stale, LCPL being the only source of games). Try Archen (thanks EM) or something!

Misdreavus: I guess Misdreavus was always really annoying, especially for players who never ran counters to it (like me). Still, I'd hesitate to call it broken- if you ban Murkrow it probably has to go too, but together they're alright. NP and WoW bring two pretty different things to the table and that makes it very good, but Misdreavus without free turns just sucks. It simply lacks OHKO power, and although a burn might as well be a KO in some instances, with the right switchins it's manageable. Again, though, if Murkrow gets banned, that might tip it over the line.

 

[majaspic22]

Well, tbh this would be truly interesting to see a metagame without krow and missy
First i think that it's stupid reforming tier after the end of it, as it creates a new tier, whereas it should remain unchanged, that means the suspect should have bee on done before (for example, how could we practice new BW UU since the bans of abomasnow and chande)
But murkrow is truly insane in this metagame, tbh the only way of countering him is to have like 2 counters to be able to take it with residual damages, or sr or hail, or to be able to kill it since he won't be able to deal with everything
240 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 236 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon: 12-16 (46.1 - 61.5%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO
80 SpA Life Orb Murkrow Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 10-13 (37 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (this means you can't put chou if it has damages on krow)
240 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 236 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Archen: 8-10 (32 - 40%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

From this damages, we see that to kill murkrow, we have to play either archen or chinchou, and this shows how krow is powerful, and should be suspected, as with a bit of support it's clearly an unhealthy pokemon. Banning him would be interesting as it'll enable to have more different builds, as murkrow put too much limit on the different build we can make

I'm more sceptical on missy, as it's not a so huge threat imo, and as krow is way more terrifying. But if we ban krow, missy would be instantaneously the new queen of LC, as she would be loosing one of the rare pokemon that can deal with its speed, and rk it without being scarf. I don't think missy deserves a suspect yet, even if it's a strong wallbreaker, but if krow is banned then she would need one.

Maybe also snover would need a suspect if krow get banned, since it's just an incredible scarf, and the resist to his double stab are rekt by sr + hp rock, or can be trapped by diglett or walled by porygon/chinchou.
That's a nice idea to try to make this tier less unbalanced, but this probably won't be a success since there are lots of wallbreakers that will still make this tier unbalanced (when i see how scraggy can rekt the meta with some support since he has few counters, that are no more counters if they are knocked, i can't imagine a future BW LC balanced

 

[tcr]

I think its worth noting that Murkrow still has a chance to lose to Misdreavus through a Thunderbolt switch in, WoW switch in, and can lose to SubNP Thunderbolt. Not to mention that it relies on unreliable priority OR a speed tie, so the claims that Missy will be extremely dominant after Krow is gone are kinda dubious. Yeah Missy doesn't want to take a Dark Pulse or a Sucker Punch, but Krow isn't exactly safe either, having to play around Missy's Thunderbolt and WoW. I mean Missy is still dominant, but its not exactly being perfectly checked by Murkrow. There are far stronger Misdreavus counters out there, such as Houndour, Toxic Lileep, etc.

As to lol Snover being suspected, I think there's no real reason to suspect Snover. If anything Drilbur would get suspect next, as sand teams are just ridiculously strong without Murkrow. Sand stall is still the dominant weather, and Snover is really only ever thrown onto teams to have a measure to prevent Drilbur from sweeping. However, I think that Rowan just wants the tier a bit less centralized and more fun for LCPL and just to make the tier less toxic and stale, so I think that banning Krow and suspecting Missy are probably the extent that this tier will go through.

 

[Rowan]

Current standing on the matter: I have no problem with banning these 2 mons for the duration of LCPL and possibly other LC tours. There's no issue with revisiting an old metagame later on, BWUU did it, and BWOU are doing it now.

I want LCPL to be fun for the people who are going to be playing BW LC. I know a lot of people dislike the metagame which is why I set this up. So far in this thread, of the people likely to be playing BW in LCPL, I only know apt-get objects, and a few are on the fence about missy. the impression I get is most would prefer them both to be gone.

tagging some more people for thoughts - you don't have to post anything, just to let you know I value your opinion on the matter since you play BW and I feel like I wanna get a good idea of what BWLC LCPL players think
Vileman Celestavian apt-get ZoroarkForever The Quasar fitzy72 fatty TUO

iss, the thing with Misdreavus is that it doesn't actually struggle to get free turns, it's so bulky and completely walls Mienfoo, the no1 mon in the tier, along with taking little damage from a lot of things.

as for murkrow, Archen has to run 236/236 HP/SpD to avoid the 2hko from dark pulse after rocks. I know if it doesn't run hp grass then it struggles a bit vs restalk chinchou, but then do teams have to run defensive chinchou AND Specially defensive archen just to stop it getting steamrolled by either variant of LO Krow. It's just too much

 

[apt-get]

my thoughts on krow+missy ban

[13:32:36] Apt-get: rowan
[13:32:39] Apt-get: can I send my thoughts on krow
[13:32:41] Apt-get: to u in pm
[13:32:43] +Rowan: yeah
[13:32:45] Apt-get: dont feel like writing a post
[13:33:10] Apt-get: so yea uhh basically there's 2 things you're forgetting about murkrow
[13:33:14] Apt-get: 1) it's not a ohko machine
[13:33:24] Apt-get: by that I mean it's not OHKOing anything with evio that's not weak to bb
[13:33:51] Apt-get: missy isn't ohkoed; eviokrow isn't ohkoed; snover isn't ohkoed by sucker punch ; drilbur isn't ohkoed; staryu isn't ohkoed; etc
[13:34:06] Apt-get: 2) murkrow doesn't last long
[13:34:31] Apt-get: brave bird has 33% recoil, add in LO damage (2 points because no 19hp) and SR
[13:34:38] Apt-get: and you'll get a mon that can use brave bird 2 times at best
[13:35:24] Apt-get: saying that it can 2HKO pretty much every wall is a moot point: unless you're constantly in mienfoo, the mon you're in will probably tank a brave bird and KO back
[13:35:57] Apt-get: it's easy to get revenge killed too: the most common scarfers can tank a sucker punch easily or get around it
[13:36:05] Apt-get: eg. ice shard for snover, magnemite resists, mienfoo resists
[13:36:44] Apt-get: so yeah LO krow has destructive power but it can't just abuse it if it wants to do more than bringing drilbur to 10% HP
[13:37:02] Apt-get: missy is in the same case too and is actually less broken than XY
[13:37:05] Apt-get: where I thought it wasn't broken
[13:37:12] Apt-get: because one of its best tools, dazzling gleam, is now gone
[13:37:33] Apt-get: it doesn't have an easy 1 move coverage for things not hit by shadow ball anymore and has to rely on its supporting options to sweep
[13:37:47] Apt-get: it's great at sweeping, but things like mienfoo and scraggy can beat it easily
[13:37:59] Apt-get: and you don't have to gamble between making your pawn die or your fairy weakness
[13:38:26] Apt-get: so yeah they're powerful tools but it's not like teams can't handle them simply because murkrow is so frail
[13:38:37] +Rowan: all valid points tbh
[13:38:40] Apt-get: and missy simply doesn't have enough slots to cover everything and lacks recovery
[13:48:38] Apt-get: do u mind if I just post this log in thread
[13:52:00] +Rowan: sure

 

[Rowan]

but i think krow is brokenas in -it has the otp speed of the tier (lol fuck elekid)
-its really strong on both sides, so it can choose to run whatever i wants from his really nice moveset
-it can run a lot of sets, so you cant really be sure what to use vs it as in it could be the sub prankster set with twave, so rip your scarfer, could be LO so rip your walls, etc the idea is clear
-it actually has recovery so you can go full yolo on using brave bird and later on vs a mon who will obvs switch out recover your health and repeat process
-it has very nice ablities who help hm, a lot
[17:27:57] Vileman: thats p much it i think? and on missy idk i ve found her manageable but i can see it broke without krow as it has a really annoying movepoll, subNP is insane, the will o set is annoying as it can easily burn at least like half your team lol, and missy herself is strong and fast so it is a pain to deal with
[17:28:31] Vileman: thats my thoughts ._.

 

[Electrolyte]

Misdreavus definitely has a lot of problems with 4MSS; you literally can't run typical Shadow Ball + HP Fight coverage and still check Murkrow with Thunderbolt (which I remember was a pretty stupid strategy anyway). Generally I think Misdreavus does have its fair share of checks and counters in the BW2 meta, it's bulkier and more powerful than average but not in an extreme way. Missy's main strength is its ability to come out on top in neutral 1 v 1 situations, but aside from that it's not outstanding in any other way. Lack of recovery and lack of a solid offensive typing still leaves it unable to OHKO things like a lot of the other sweepers of the metagame can, so even if it tries to take something down it'll usually have at least half its health taken down, especially because it's not very physically bulky.


Contrast that with Murkrow, which, despite not having much bulk at all, is extremely powerful, has a wide array of coverage moves that enable it to OHKO much of the tier, AND even has STAB priority turning all of your faster counters into checks. Sure it gets worn down easily, but obviously the way Brave Bird recoil mechanics work suggests that if you die to recoil then you've already inflicted three times as much damage as you've taken. LO Murkrow itself can literally take down whole teams, and it's not even the issue of "oh just teambuild better", Murkrow is just that powerful.


I'd like to see Murkrow banned for this one; Misdreavus I think can stay.

 

[mad0ka]

AND even has STAB priority

shadow sneak missy says hello!

 

[The Quasar]

Rowan, first of all thanks to tag me and ask for my opinion.

I would like to answer you as best I can, so I would like to answer you tomorrow.

 

[fitzy72]

Murkrow Opinion - Broken as fuck

I'm going to quote something Wobbyle posted during BW2

I currently feel that Murkrow is too dominant of a force. It can wall break, defensively stall out half a team, set up CM and 6-0, end game clean up, and pretty much perform any role well. Between JUST two of the sets, CM and Mixkrow, there are no counters. Almost everyone's first instinct when a Murkrow comes in, is to switch to something like a Chinchou or Bronzor or Porygon, or fodder. CM poops on every SubRoost and Mixkrow counter, and most likely gets a free +2 if the opponent switches to one. If the opponent doesn't have at least 2 fast and hard physical hitters, it's good game. Haze and Roar/WW are non existant in the current metagame, and the only thing that's a large enough of a threat while setting up to Roar/WW out or run a bad move like Haze for is CM Murkrow. The only reason I can deal with a properly played Murkrow more than half the time is because I know the player, their team, and their Murkrow set. Take away prior knowledge of the opponent and the set, and I feel that Murkrow is over powered.

Murkrow can simply do too many things brilliantly with hardly any cost.

Misdreavus I always thought as being the best pokemon in LC, just not good enough to be banned. It will always do something in a match but should never sweep or do too much damage against normal prepared LC teams.

Do I think Murkrow should be removed from the tour? No. As someone who has seen and played (on PO) with the bans it isn't a one stop solution to a balanced metagame. Without Sucker Punch buffer or Misdreavus tanking +0 hits then sand teams are really stupid (you could argue they are broken with these two in the tier). Get rid of sand as well and then Regen teams dominate the metagame with Mienfoo specifically being borderline broken. At least with the current Murkrow BW people have played the tier enough to have good teams and know what is good and not.

Finally I think everyone is missing Scraggy. It is so much more broken than Murkrow or Misdreavus in BW. It can set up on 2/3 of the tier without repercussions and sweep you regardless depending on the set. With the exception of saved Timburr ,Croagunk(if you don't run Zen) and bulky HJK Mienfoo (pretty rare as most ran Drain Punch) or manage to pressure them to not get 2 DD's and revenge with a scarfer. If my memory is correct about 50% of games I played ended with a Scraggy sweep and it wasn't because of unprepared players, just that even if you are "prepared" this thing is disgusting enough in a metagame with no fletchling or fairies that it will probably find a way past.