VGC My first Smogon RMT - really need help with VGC team before regionals!

[Misdreavus]

I've been out of the competitive scene for a few years now, but am looking to get a good team together for Regionals. I'd like to say I did a good bit of research and fairly familiarized myself with the meta when making this team, but so far on Battle Spot Rated Battles, I have a losing record of about 6-8 or so, which just doesn't cut it.

Note: All Pokémon are at level 50.

Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Ability: Air Lock
Hasty nature
IVs: 30/31/29/31/31/31
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
-Dragon Ascent
-Draco Meteor
-ExtremeSpeed
-Protect

Pretty standard M-Rayquaza here. After mega evolving, Delta Stream protects my 4 Flying-type Pokémon from super-effective attacks. It can also override Primordial Sea and Desolate Land. Dragon Ascent is my main STAB attack, which hits very hard with Life Orb. Draco Meteor is my second, and is one of my best options against Primal Groudon. With the aid of Clefairy's Helping Hand, it's an OHKO. ExtremeSpeed is a nice +2 priority attack that even goes before opponents' Follow Me. Protect allows me to keep M-Rayquaza and its Delta Stream around longer. I chose Hasty as my nature since I have Intimidate to weaken physical attacks.

Ho-Oh @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Pressure
Careful nature
IVs: 31/30/30/x/31/31
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 60 SpD / 12 Spe
-Sacred Fire
-Brave Bird
-Tailwind
-Protect

With its typing and great Special Defense, Ho-Oh is good against the ever-popular Xerneas, and in some cases, Primal Groudon. Ho-Oh can survive Geomancy-boosted Moonblast and hit back hard, and unless Primal Groudon carries a Rock-type attack, it can't do anything against Ho-Oh. Sacred Fire is simply one of the best attacks in the game. Many top threats, such as Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Rayquaza, absolutely hate being Burned, and Fire is a great offensive type, especially with Primal Groudon running around. Brave Bird is mainly for things that resist Fire, such as Primal Groudon and Rayquaza. Safeguard + Lum Berry is for Smeargle, with the added bonus of allowing Thundurus to Swagger Ho-Oh or any of my partners and give them an Attack boost. As for the EVs, they guarantee that Ho-Oh survives a spread Origin Pulse from Primal Kyogre in heavy rain, and M-Kangaskhan's Double-Edge has only a 2% chance to 2HKO after Intimidate. Jibaku came up with the spread 252 HP / 192 Def / 60 SpD / 4 Spe, but I noticed that 8 of those Def EVs were making no difference in the M-Kangaskhan calculation, so I dumped them into Speed in order to speed creep other 4 Spe base 90s, such as some Primal Kyogre and Primal Groudon.

Thundurus @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
Calm nature
IVs: 31/x/31/31/31/31
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Def / 4 SpA / 180 SpD / 28 Spe
-Thunderbolt
-Thunder Wave
-Taunt
-Swagger

Every team needs some form of speed control, and Thundurus' Thunder Wave has been very valuable to me so far. Thunderbolt is one of my best options against Primal Kyogre and Talonflame. Taunt stops Pokémon like Smeargle and Cresselia. Swagger is mainly to annoy opposing Special Attackers, but as alluded earlier, if Ho-Oh has Safeguard up, I can use it on one of my partners. The EV spread was recommended to me by Kasoman of NuggetBridge. It allows Thundurus to survive a full-power spread Eruption from Primal Groudon, a spread Origin Pulse from Primal Kyogre, a Double-Edge from M-Kangaskhan, and also keeps Primal Groudon's Rock Slide at a 3HKO, the latter two thanks to Sitrus Berry. The Speed EVs are to speed creep opposing bulky Thundurus.

Landorus-T @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
Jolly nature
IVs: 31/31/31/x/31/31
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
-Earthquake
-Rock Slide
-Superpower
-Knock Off

I needed a counter for Talonflame, Mega Kangaskhan, and Primal Groudon. The combination of Intimidate and Assault Vest gives Landorus-T a defensive boost on both the physical and special sides. Earthquake and Rock Slide are good spread moves that hit a lot of popular Pokémon, such as Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, Thundurus, and Talonflame for Super-Effective damage. Superpower is a nice move to have against Pokémon like Mega Kangaskhan and Ferrothorn. Knock Off is useful against Gengar and item-dependent Pokémon like Clefairy.

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
Brave nature
IVs: 31/31/31/x/31/0
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Atk / 132 SpD
-Gyro Ball
-Power Whip
-Leech Seed
-Protect

This Ferrothorn is a slightly more offensive reincarnation of a Pokémon I used to a good degree of success in the B/W days of VGC. Ferrothorn is a great answer to 2 of the most popular Pokémon in the metagame: Primal Kyogre and Xerneas. With the 140 Attack EVs, Ferrothorn OHKOs 252 Atk / 252 Spe Xerneas (before Geomancy) and 4 HP / 0 Def Primal Kyogre with Gyro Ball and Power Whip, respectively. Meanwhile, it can withstand their most powerful attacks thanks to its typing and great natural bulk. Leech Seed and Leftovers help Ferrothorn's longevity.

Clefairy @ Eviolite
Ability: Friend Guard
Calm nature
IVs: 31/x/31/31/31/31
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpD
-Icy Wind
-Follow Me
-Helping Hand
-Protect

Clefairy was the last member added to my team. Her moveset is pretty self-explanatory. Icy Wind is my team's second form of speed control. Follow Me redirects attacks to bulky Clefairy, keeping its partner out of harm's way. Helping Hand can turn 2HKOs into OHKOs, such as M-Rayquaza's Draco Meteor against Primal Groudon. Protect keeps Clefairy on the field, keeping the defensive boost of Friend Guard around even longer. The 252 HP and 172 SpD EVs allow Clefairy to survive +2 Moonblast from Timid Xerneas, and also +SpA full-power spread Eruption from Primal Groudon and Water Spout from Primal Kyogre. The remaining EVs were dumped into Defense, which makes Precipice Blades from +Atk Primal Groudon a 2HKO. M-Kangaskhan's Double-Edge has a 18.8% to OHKO, while Life Orb M-Rayquaza's Dragon Ascent has an 87.5% chance. These two can be limited to 2HKOs with Intimidate, though.

---

In theory, I thought I had the big threats covered, but I seem to have a lot of difficulty with Primal Groudon, and to a lesser extent, Xerneas. Primal Groudon's bulk allows it to sponge pretty much everything I can throw at it. I can 2HKO it with Landorus-T's Earthquake or cripple it with M-Rayquaza's Draco Meteor (OHKO if I have Clefairy's Helping Hand), but that's about it. As for Xerneas, I always find myself in situations where I have the OHKO with Gyro Ball, but my opponent switches it out, allowing Xerneas to come back later in the match, which means I have to try to preserve Ferrothorn.

I really think Ho-Oh needs to go. I find myself rarely bringing it, which already puts me in a tight spot since opponents almost always bring both restricted Pokémon for obvious reasons, and I'm left with just M-Rayquaza. I think I could maybe replace him with Primal Kyogre, and put Role Play over Swagger on Thundurus to allow me to win the weather war and OHKO Primal Groudon. I'm also on the fence about Clefairy. My playstyle is more aggressive, and I find myself bringing Clefairy only when there isn't a 4th Pokémon that can well cover the threats on the opposing team.

What do you all think? Regionals is this coming weekend (and I also have a Premier Challenge on Tuesday), so I'd like to get this straightened out ASAP. I'm totally open to Pokémon replacements, but I think that at the very least, M-Rayquaza, Thundurus, and Ferrothorn have earned their stay.

Thanks!

 

[Draconid997]

I think this team is brilliant, good job :)
If you want to make the switch from ho-oh to kyogre, i think it would definitely suit this team.
However, if you do make the switch i would recommend using overheat on rayquaza over extreme speed as otherwise the team would have an exposed weakness to ferrothorn.
Another really nitpicky thing, in order for landorus-t to survive an eruption from primal groudon all the time, it requires 12 SpD:

• 252+ SpA Primal Groudon Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 12 SpD Assault Vest Landorus-T in Harsh Sun: 138-163 (84.1 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ SpA Primal Groudon Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Landorus-T in Harsh Sun: 141-166 (85.4 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

You can go one of two ways with this info:
244 Atk / 12 SpD / 252 Spe - Swapping the EVs over into SpD
4 HP / 236 Atk / 4 Def / 12 SpD / 252 Spe - Same but with more rounded defenses (I prefer this spread, however it's completely up to you)

If you want to switch out clefairy for a more offensive mon, i would suggest that you consider running a 'go-to' pokemon. This slot varies from team to team but some good examples include: Gengar (sash), Infernape, Ludicolo, Raichu, Hitmontop, Scarf Smeargle, Breloom etc... Out of these, I would recommend sash gengar the most since it provides a decent counter to the common xerneas/smeargle lead with icy wind, as well as an immunity to ground for landorus-t as well as a secondary taunt. Another offensive option is a secondary mega, so since you're losing a possible rayquaza check in clefairy, mega salamence stands out. Other notable options include mega kangaskhan and mega gengar.

Here's a RayOgre framework that i've been developing if you want to make future team adjustments :)

1. Mega Rayquaza
2. Primal Kyogre
3. Steel Type/Xerneas Counter – Since the legendary core is weak to a set up Xerneas, a powerful steel type is appreciated to deal big damage to Xerneas without taking much damage itself. Some good examples include: Ferrothorn, scizor, mawile-mega and aegislash
4. Redirection/Intimidate Support - a lot of Rayquaza/Kyogre teams use Togekiss as a redirector, as rayquaza’s mega ability cancels out togekiss’ flying weaknesses, whilst Togekiss can provide speed control in Thunder Wave and Tailwind as well as drawing dangerous dragon type attacks from opposing mega Rayquaza/Salamence. Other examples include: Togetic, Clefairy, Smeargle and Amoonguss
Other support options i have seen usage of in this spot are intimidate users like Landorus-T and Mega Salamence etc
5. Speed control – speed control isn’t something to be overlooked in this format. Tailwind, Thunder Wave, Trick Room and Icy wind are all examples of excellent speed control that can determine the order of pokemon attacks in battle. Some great examples are: Gengar, Thundurus, Crobat, Talonflame, Cresselia and Gothitelle
6. Fake Out/Go-To – This final pokemon is hard to define. Of the teams in the recent Glasgow regional, all four used a fake out user. However, each pokemon choice had an extra quality that individual trainers were drawn to, such as Intimidate, Swift Swim, were a Primal check etc. Some examples for this slot are: Mega Kangaskhan, Weavile, Raichu, Ludicolo, Hitmontop, Mienshao, Liepard etc

Checklist for supporting Pokemon:

• 2x Xerneas Counters
• 1x (or more) Primal Kyogre Counters
• 1x Mega Rayquaza Counter (can be follow me)
• 1x TR/Set up counter
• 1x Ferrothorn counter (overheat on rayquaza/talonflame)

And here are some sample teams that follow this framework (Akaba's team may be of interest):

(sample teams)

Jamie Boyt 3rd Place Glasgow Regional / 1st Place Wakefield Team

Lee Provost 2nd Place Glasgow Regional Team

Benjamin Grover 4th Place Glasgow Regional Team

Adam Mack 6th Place Glasgow Regional Team

Akaba's Team (Was 3rd Place on Battle Spot Special at the time of running this team)

Enosh's Team

Major Bowman's Dallas Marathon PC Team

Blake Hopper's Dallas Marathon PC Team

Edward Glover's 6th Place Virginia Regional Team

Markus Stefan's 16th Place Innsbruck Regional Team

Sam Johnson's 3rd Place Anaheim Regional Team

Gerald Delacruz's 7th Place Anaheim Regional Team

Alexander Kuhn's 4th Place Preganziol Regional Team

Stephen Morioka's 8th Place Collinsville Regional Team

Aiman Ishak's 5th Place Singapore Regional Team

 

[Misdreavus]

I think this team is brilliant, good job :)
If you want to make the switch from ho-oh to kyogre, i think it would definitely suit this team.
However, if you do make the switch i would recommend using overheat on rayquaza over extreme speed as otherwise the team would have an exposed weakness to ferrothorn.
Another really nitpicky thing, in order for landorus-t to survive an eruption from primal groudon all the time, it requires 12 SpD:

• 252+ SpA Primal Groudon Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 12 SpD Assault Vest Landorus-T in Harsh Sun: 138-163 (84.1 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ SpA Primal Groudon Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Landorus-T in Harsh Sun: 141-166 (85.4 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

You can go one of two ways with this info:
244 Atk / 12 SpD / 252 Spe - Swapping the EVs over into SpD
4 HP / 236 Atk / 4 Def / 12 SpD / 252 Spe - Same but with more rounded defenses (I prefer this spread, however it's completely up to you)

If you want to switch out clefairy for a more offensive mon, i would suggest that you consider running a 'go-to' pokemon. This slot varies from team to team but some good examples include: Gengar (sash), Infernape, Ludicolo, Raichu, Hitmontop, Scarf Smeargle, Breloom etc... Out of these, I would recommend sash gengar the most since it provides a decent counter to the common xerneas/smeargle lead with icy wind, as well as an immunity to ground for landorus-t as well as a secondary taunt. Another offensive option is a secondary mega, so since you're losing a possible rayquaza check in clefairy, mega salamence stands out. Other notable options include mega kangaskhan and mega gengar.

Here's a RayOgre framework that i've been developing if you want to make future team adjustments :)

1. Mega Rayquaza
2. Primal Kyogre
3. Steel Type/Xerneas Counter – Since the legendary core is weak to a set up Xerneas, a powerful steel type is appreciated to deal big damage to Xerneas without taking much damage itself. Some good examples include: Ferrothorn, scizor, mawile-mega and aegislash
4. Redirection/Intimidate Support - a lot of Rayquaza/Kyogre teams use Togekiss as a redirector, as rayquaza’s mega ability cancels out togekiss’ flying weaknesses, whilst Togekiss can provide speed control in Thunder Wave and Tailwind as well as drawing dangerous dragon type attacks from opposing mega Rayquaza/Salamence. Other examples include: Togetic, Clefairy, Smeargle and Amoonguss
Other support options i have seen usage of in this spot are intimidate users like Landorus-T and Mega Salamence etc
5. Speed control – speed control isn’t something to be overlooked in this format. Tailwind, Thunder Wave, Trick Room and Icy wind are all examples of excellent speed control that can determine the order of pokemon attacks in battle. Some great examples are: Gengar, Thundurus, Crobat, Talonflame, Cresselia and Gothitelle
6. Fake Out/Go-To – This final pokemon is hard to define. Of the teams in the recent Glasgow regional, all four used a fake out user. However, each pokemon choice had an extra quality that individual trainers were drawn to, such as Intimidate, Swift Swim, were a Primal check etc. Some examples for this slot are: Mega Kangaskhan, Weavile, Raichu, Ludicolo, Hitmontop, Mienshao, Liepard etc

Checklist for supporting Pokemon:

• 2x Xerneas Counters
• 1x (or more) Primal Kyogre Counters
• 1x Mega Rayquaza Counter (can be follow me)
• 1x TR/Set up counter
• 1x Ferrothorn counter (overheat on rayquaza/talonflame)

And here are some sample teams that follow this framework (Akaba's team may be of interest):

(sample teams)

Jamie Boyt 3rd Place Glasgow Regional / 1st Place Wakefield Team

Lee Provost 2nd Place Glasgow Regional Team

Benjamin Grover 4th Place Glasgow Regional Team

Adam Mack 6th Place Glasgow Regional Team

Akaba's Team (Was 3rd Place on Battle Spot Special at the time of running this team)

Enosh's Team

Major Bowman's Dallas Marathon PC Team

Blake Hopper's Dallas Marathon PC Team

Edward Glover's 6th Place Virginia Regional Team

Markus Stefan's 16th Place Innsbruck Regional Team

Sam Johnson's 3rd Place Anaheim Regional Team

Gerald Delacruz's 7th Place Anaheim Regional Team

Alexander Kuhn's 4th Place Preganziol Regional Team

Stephen Morioka's 8th Place Collinsville Regional Team

Aiman Ishak's 5th Place Singapore Regional Team

Thanks so much for the compliment! I think I will give Primal Kyogre and Gengar a try... I see those 6 worked for Akaba. What do you recommend for Primal Kyogre - Timid or Modest/other? Max Speed/Special Attack or bulky? And what do you recommend for the moveset? Ice Beam is a given, and Origin Pulse seems to be as well. I'm on the fence about Water Spout since even a max Speed Primal Kyogre is not super-fast and can get out-sped and damaged before he can get it off. It would be nice to have room for Thunder too...

EDIT: I'm also worried about Trick Room, despite not having faced it in nearly 30 matches and being told that it wasn't common enough to worry about. My thoughts on dealing with it are to add a slow Primal Kyogre over Ho-Oh, and put a TR Cresselia over either Clefairy/Gengar or Landorus-T (which do you recommend I drop for it?). That way, I have a TR mode myself (Cresselia, Primal Kyogre, Ferrothorn), and I can also use TR to nullify opposing TR.

 

[Draconid997]

Sounds like you want to run something like this:

I would swap out clefairy for cresselia here, as clefairy/cresselia fill semi-similar roles. I would also keep double genies, as although you can potentially use gengar over thundurus, thundurus isn't as bothered by trick room as gengar is because of prankster taunt/thunder wave/swagger, to the extent that thundurus can potentially lead with cresselia to counter smeargle/xerneas (taunt smeargle and use trick room, with kyogre and ferrothorn in the back, you can swagger xerneas in the upcoming turns to force a switch etc). Bulky kyogre would be preferable over slow kyogre for use in both fast and slow modes as slow kyogre is reliant on cresselia to be as effective as it can be.

Let's go over a quick checklist:

• 3x Xerneas Checks (Cresselia/Ferrothorn/Thundurus)
  
• 2x Primal Kyogre Checks (Ferrothorn/Thundurus)
  
• 1x Mega Rayquaza Check (Ferrothorn)
• 1x Taunt (Thundurus)
  
• 1x Ferrothorn Check (Overheat Rayquaza)
• 2x Speed Control (TR/TW)
• 1x Intimidate (Landorus-T)

In terms of sets, these are what i would recommend:

Rayquaza-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Delta Stream
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 29 Def
- Dragon Ascent
- Draco Meteor
- Overheat
- Protect

Basically your set with max SpA to compensate for the use of overheat

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 116 Def / 60 SpA / 76 SpD / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Origin Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Protect

From what you've said about move choices and roles etc, i think this set covers everything you wanted, the EVs are designed to survive a max attack power whip from ferrothorn as well as a grass knot from +2 xerneas (timid):

• 252+ Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Primal Kyogre: 174-206 (84 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• +2 252 SpA Xerneas Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Primal Kyogre: 174-206 (84 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(The rest goes into SpA and Spe)

Cresselia (F) @ Mental Herb
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Ice Beam
- Skill Swap
- Helping Hand / Gravity

Pretty standard cresselia set. Since cresselia tanks literally everything, this spread will survive a +1 jolly life orb dragon ascent from mega rayquaza with a bunch of EVs left over to put into special defense. Moves wise, TR is pretty obvious, Ice beam for a much needed attack (although i have seen use of magic coat for vs smeargle+quick guard etc), skill swap for weather support to help kyogre vs groudon, and helping hand in the last slot for spamming whenever there is nothing else cresselia can do in terms of set ups/attacks etc, although you can use gravity here to correct origin pulse's shaky accuracy.

Hope i've helped :)

Btw if you're worried about all rayquaza's stat lowering moves, haze crobat is an interesting partner, since it is aided by delta stream and provides tailwind support as well as a xerneas counter (used over thundurus).

 

[Misdreavus]

Sounds like you want to run something like this:

I would swap out clefairy for cresselia here, as clefairy/cresselia fill semi-similar roles. I would also keep double genies, as although you can potentially use gengar over thundurus, thundurus isn't as bothered by trick room as gengar is because of prankster taunt/thunder wave/swagger, to the extent that thundurus can potentially lead with cresselia to counter smeargle/xerneas (taunt smeargle and use trick room, with kyogre and ferrothorn in the back, you can swagger xerneas in the upcoming turns to force a switch etc). Bulky kyogre would be preferable over slow kyogre for use in both fast and slow modes as slow kyogre is reliant on cresselia to be as effective as it can be.

Let's go over a quick checklist:

• 3x Xerneas Checks (Cresselia/Ferrothorn/Thundurus)
  
• 2x Primal Kyogre Checks (Ferrothorn/Thundurus)
  
• 1x Mega Rayquaza Check (Ferrothorn)
• 1x Taunt (Thundurus)
  
• 1x Ferrothorn Check (Overheat Rayquaza)
• 2x Speed Control (TR/TW)
• 1x Intimidate (Landorus-T)

In terms of sets, these are what i would recommend:

Rayquaza-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Delta Stream
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 29 Def
- Dragon Ascent
- Draco Meteor
- Overheat
- Protect

Basically your set with max SpA to compensate for the use of overheat

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 116 Def / 60 SpA / 76 SpD / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Origin Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Protect

From what you've said about move choices and roles etc, i think this set covers everything you wanted, the EVs are designed to survive a max attack power whip from ferrothorn as well as a grass knot from +2 xerneas (timid):

• 252+ Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Primal Kyogre: 174-206 (84 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• +2 252 SpA Xerneas Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Primal Kyogre: 174-206 (84 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(The rest goes into SpA and Spe)

Cresselia (F) @ Mental Herb
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Ice Beam
- Skill Swap
- Helping Hand / Gravity

Pretty standard cresselia set. Since cresselia tanks literally everything, this spread will survive a +1 jolly life orb dragon ascent from mega rayquaza with a bunch of EVs left over to put into special defense. Moves wise, TR is pretty obvious, Ice beam for a much needed attack (although i have seen use of magic coat for vs smeargle+quick guard etc), skill swap for weather support to help kyogre vs groudon, and helping hand in the last slot for spamming whenever there is nothing else cresselia can do in terms of set ups/attacks etc, although you can use gravity here to correct origin pulse's shaky accuracy.

Hope i've helped :)

Btw if you're worried about all rayquaza's stat lowering moves, haze crobat is an interesting partner, since it is aided by delta stream and provides tailwind support as well as a xerneas counter (used over thundurus).

I'd really hate to lose E-Speed on Rayquaza, though. Do you think I'd be okay without it? Other people have told me to drop Draco Meteor instead.

EDIT: Also, would it be better if I gave Lum Berry to Thundurus and put Sitrus on Cress instead of Mental Herb?

 

[Draconid997]

You could always use talonflame over thundurus if you're bothered by ferrothorn without overheat rayquaza, which would mean that you either drop life orb on rayquaza and switch it for focus sash, or give talonflame something like a lum berry. Up to you, but focus sash rayquaza is still pretty stong (helps it out vs mega salamence too). Talonflame is also not that bothered by trick room because of gale wings, so you could run a slightly more bulky set to outspeed other talonflame in TR:

Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 60 Def / 20 SpD / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Tailwind
- Quick Guard

This set will survive a brave bird from opposing standard talonflame 100% of the time from full health, and will outspeed mega kangaskhan to avoid incoming sucker punches/fake outs:

• 252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 60 Def Talonflame: 130-153 (84.4 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mental herb on cresselia is a brilliant item, allowing it to let it set up TR in the face of taunters, but if you want to switch to sitrus (which is equally good), i would recommend a change of spread:

Cresselia @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 172 Def / 92 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Helping Hand / Gravity
- Skill Swap
- Ice Beam

Survives +1 Life Orb Dragon Ascent from mega rayquaza:

• +1 252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 244 HP / 172 Def Cresselia: 188-224 (83.1 - 99.1%)

However, with these EVs you're hitting an even number, which means super fang will activate it, which is great for surviving these moves:

• 252+ SpA Primal Groudon Eruption (150 BP) vs. 244 HP / 92+ SpD Cresselia in Harsh Sunshine: 118-141 (52.2 - 62.3%)
• 252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 244 HP / 172 Def Cresselia: 126-149 (55.7 - 65.9%)
• 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 92+ SpD Cresselia: 114-134 (50.4 - 59.2%)
• 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 244 HP / 172 Def Cresselia: 109-129 (48.2 - 57%)

Not sure about lum berry thundurus, i would think because of your aggressive playstyle that talonflame would be a better pick for you :/

Hope this helps

 

[Misdreavus]

You could always use talonflame over thundurus if you're bothered by ferrothorn without overheat rayquaza, which would mean that you either drop life orb on rayquaza and switch it for focus sash, or give talonflame something like a lum berry. Up to you, but focus sash rayquaza is still pretty stong (helps it out vs mega salamence too). Talonflame is also not that bothered by trick room because of gale wings, so you could run a slightly more bulky set to outspeed other talonflame in TR:

Talonflame @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 60 Def / 20 SpD / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Tailwind
- Quick Guard

This set will survive a brave bird from opposing standard talonflame 100% of the time from full health, and will outspeed mega kangaskhan to avoid incoming sucker punches/fake outs:

• 252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 60 Def Talonflame: 130-153 (84.4 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mental herb on cresselia is a brilliant item, allowing it to let it set up TR in the face of taunters, but if you want to switch to sitrus (which is equally good), i would recommend a change of spread:

Cresselia @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 172 Def / 92 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Helping Hand / Gravity
- Skill Swap
- Ice Beam

Survives +1 Life Orb Dragon Ascent from mega rayquaza:

• +1 252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 244 HP / 172 Def Cresselia: 188-224 (83.1 - 99.1%)

However, with these EVs you're hitting an even number, which means super fang will activate it, which is great for surviving these moves:

• 252+ SpA Primal Groudon Eruption (150 BP) vs. 244 HP / 92+ SpD Cresselia in Harsh Sunshine: 118-141 (52.2 - 62.3%)
• 252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 244 HP / 172 Def Cresselia: 126-149 (55.7 - 65.9%)
• 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 92+ SpD Cresselia: 114-134 (50.4 - 59.2%)
• 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 244 HP / 172 Def Cresselia: 109-129 (48.2 - 57%)

Not sure about lum berry thundurus, i would think because of your aggressive playstyle that talonflame would be a better pick for you :/

Hope this helps

Thank you so much for all of these incredibly detailed and well thought-out posts! I'll consider Talonflame over Thundurus, but I'd really like to keep Life Orb on Rayquaza. The only problem with Talonflame over Thundurus is that I lose my only Pokémon with Taunt, which gives me a Smeargle weakness. Besides, despite my aggressive playstyle, I like Thundurus. Talonflame is good, though!

 

[Draconid997]

Got it.
To remove your smeargle weakness, i would strongly recommend you run mega kangaskhan in the last slot over landorus-t. This will remove your smeargle weakness and would give you extra fake out support for your trick room mode (i.e without rayquaza) it would also be a good lead partner with talonflame etc

Kangaskhan-Mega (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Double-Edge
- Sucker Punch
- Low Kick

Standard bulky set for all round use, will counter smeargle by:
- Turn 1, fake out smeargle, set up TR/TW
- Turn 2, Double-Edge smeargle...

Only thing is it wouldn't work against smeargle+quick guard
then again thundurus wouldn't work either

 

[Draconid997]

If you don't want to run talonflame/kangaskhan, then Ray/Ogre/Cress/Ferro/Genies is absolutely fine. Overheat rayquaza is what i would definitely recommend since otherwise you would have literally no answers to ferrothorn apart from maybe landorus with superpower. Extremespeed on rayquaza is still a good option tho :) up to you

 

[Misdreavus]

Got it.
To remove your smeargle weakness, i would strongly recommend you run mega kangaskhan in the last slot over landorus-t. This will remove your smeargle weakness and would give you extra fake out support for your trick room mode (i.e without rayquaza) it would also be a good lead partner with talonflame etc

Kangaskhan-Mega (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Double-Edge
- Sucker Punch
- Low Kick

Standard bulky set for all round use, will counter smeargle by:
- Turn 1, fake out smeargle, set up TR/TW
- Turn 2, Double-Edge smeargle...

Only thing is it wouldn't work against smeargle+quick guard
then again thundurus wouldn't work either

If you don't want to run talonflame/kangaskhan, then Ray/Ogre/Cress/Ferro/Genies is absolutely fine. Overheat rayquaza is what i would definitely recommend since otherwise you would have literally no answers to ferrothorn apart from maybe landorus with superpower. Extremespeed on rayquaza is still a good option tho :) up to you

I thought of switching Landorus-T for Salamence (allowing me to keep Intimidate), and giving Mence a Fire-type attack to keep Rayquaza as it is. Something like:

Salamence @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 36 Atk / 220 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive nature
-Draco Meteor
-Double-Edge
-Fire Blast
-Protect

The Rayquaza/Salamence dual mega combo was personally recommended to me by Zog, so maybe I'll try this out. What do you think? The EVs are enough to OHKO my Ferrothorn (which I imagine is pretty standard) with Fire Blast.

EDIT: Looks like a lot of people are running the Fire-type attack over Hyper Voice, so maybe I'd try that.

EDIT2: Wow, looks like Flamethrower doesn't OHKO Ferrothorn... Fire Blast is required. Moveset updated according to these 2 edits.

 

[Draconid997]

I didnt think of that, its actually a very good idea :)
yeah if that works for you then definitely go with it, the timid set works perfectly well without double edge, as hyper voice is a great spam move for chip damage etc, although if you did want double edge i would swap out hyper voice, as you still want to hit rayquaza

Edit: running double edge/draco meteor/flamethrower is also great :)

 

[Misdreavus]

I didnt think of that, its actually a very good idea :)
yeah if that works for you then definitely go with it, the timid set works perfectly well without double edge, as hyper voice is a great spam move for chip damage etc, although if you did want double edge i would swap out hyper voice, as you still want to hit rayquaza

Edit: running double edge/draco meteor/flamethrower is also great :)

Yeah, I updated my post. It requires Fire Blast over Flamethrower for the OHKO on Ferrothorn though. I gave it enough Special Attack EVs to accomplish that with the rest dumped into Attack (after maxing Speed, of course).

 

[Draconid997]

Cool :) so are you thinking of settling with:
Rayquaza/Kyogre/Ferrothorn/Cresselia/Thundurus/Salamence

Would you mind if i included your team in the sample teams in my vgc 16 teambuilding frameworks thread?
Its a really great example

 

[Misdreavus]

Cool :) so are you thinking of settling with:
Rayquaza/Kyogre/Ferrothorn/Cresselia/Thundurus/Salamence

Would you mind if i included your team in the sample teams in my vgc 16 teambuilding frameworks thread?
Its a really great example

Yes, I believe that's what I'll be going with. And sure, I would feel honored to have my team there! I'm pleased that you like it.

Someone on NuggetBridge suggested that I might want to bump up the Defense EVs on Cresselia to survive a Jolly M-Kangaskhan's Double-Edge + Adamant Talonflame's Life Orb Brave Bird. That would be 252 HP / 188 Def. Do you think that's worth it or not?

EDIT: I am a bit worried about Smeargle, particularly with Talonflame since Quick Guard blocks Thundurus' Taunt. How do most teams handle this? If I lead with Thundurus and my opponent leads with Smeargle/Talonflame, I assume most of them would use Quick Guard with Talonflame and Dark Void with Smeargle. I can go ahead and Thunderbolt Talonflame for the KO, while my partner Protects. I then lose Thundurus to Sleep most likely (leaving us both with 3 healthy Pokémon), which tempts me to put a Lum Berry on it like I was thinking earlier (which frees up Sitrus Berry for Cresselia). Then next turn I can safely Taunt Smeargle with Talonflame out of the picture. What do you think?

 

[Draconid997]

I dont really think those kangaskhan EVs are really worth it, the calcs are very situational and you would need more attack to do decent damage to the fat ubers :/ anyway most kangaskhan will try to low kick opposing kangaskhan
And to handle smeargle, just run magic coat on cresselia as the easiest solution, this would allow you to keep your items in place etc :)

 

[Misdreavus]

I dont really think those kangaskhan EVs are really worth it, the calcs are very situational and you would need more attack to do decent damage to the fat ubers :/ anyway most kangaskhan will try to low kick opposing kangaskhan
And to handle smeargle, just run magic coat on cresselia as the easiest solution, this would allow you to keep your items in place etc :)

The EVs I provided were for my Cresselia to survive those 2 attacks, not Kangaskhan (which I don't use).

 

[Draconid997]

The EVs I provided were for my Cresselia to survive those 2 attacks, not Kangaskhan (which I don't use).

For some reason i read kangaskhan XD
Anyway that would be pretty decent so why not :) there arent many 'standard' benchmarks per say for cress, so yeah go for it

 

[Misdreavus]

For some reason i read kangaskhan XD
Anyway that would be pretty decent so why not :) there arent many 'standard' benchmarks per say for cress, so yeah go for it

Alright, sounds good. Which move on Cress would you replace with Magic Coat - Skill Swap or Helping Hand? I'm thinking Skill Swap, since I was going to put Role Play on Thundurus to re-activate my Primordial Sea if it gets overridden, but you can definitely do some useful and fun things with Skill Swap...

 

[Draconid997]

I would personally swap magic coat for helping hand, as i find role play thundurus quite gimmicky, it removes his prankster ability etc.. Although, helping hand does have a lot of benefits; go with what you would like to use :)