SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon

[Pikachu315111]

Just realized this:

Flutter Mane & Roaring Moon are exclusive to Scarlet. Misdreavus & Bagon are exlcusive to Violet.

Iron Thorns & Iron Jugulis are exclusive to Violet. Larvitar & Deino are exclusive to Scarlet.

Why GF? Like, just swap Misdreavus for Drifloon, Bagon for Larvitar, and Deino for Dreepy and it would make sense.

 

[R_N]

Just realized this:

Flutter Mane & Roaring Moon are exclusive to Scarlet. Misdreavus & Bagon are exlcusive to Violet.

Iron Thorns & Iron Jugulis are exclusive to Violet. Larvitar & Deino are exclusive to Scarlet.

Why GF? Like, just swap Misdreavus for Drifloon, Bagon for Larvitar, and Deino for Dreepy and it would make sense.

They probably did it on purpose

 

[Pikachu315111]

They probably did it on purpose

But why? Neither the normal nor the Paradox Pokemon hint that the other exists, nor is there something to gain for having both the normal and Paradox Pokemon thus making it an extra challenge. There is no reason to do this switch cause it's not like their equivalent of each other. "Man, sucks I can't normally get Flutter Mane, but at least I can get Mismagius"! In addition, if you had all the normal version of the Paradox Pokemon in the same version, you can have a group spawn in Area Zero somewhere to hint why there's a Paradox "relative" of that Pokemon.

 

[BIG ASHLEY]

maybe they just thought it was funny. i would

 

[R_N]

maybe they just thought it was funny. i would

or they thought it added mystique or something to that effect

it's definitely not a coincidence that the 4 paradoxes that are linked to VE pokemon, are VE to the opposite version at the very least. I'm sure there was some vague internal logic to it when it came time to divvy them up.

 

[Esserise]

They did the same thing with some of the version-exclusive Mega Stones in XY. Like, Houndoom was exclusive to X, but its Mega Stone could only be found in Y.

At least in SV, the Paradoxes are different species altogether, so it’s not like you’re being kept from using the cool new power-up form of a Pokémon you actually do have access to.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

If they'd made the Paradox availability match the version exclusivity of the original mons there would 100% be people complaining that they missed an obvious opportunity to reinforce the Paradox theming

 

[Coronis]

Yeah its definitely on purpose and I always thought it fit well thematically.

Also going back to that whole Scyther/Scizor thing and 1/2 BST’s, I always like to imagine there was one poor bloke at GF who was forced to go through all the Gen 1 Pokemon alone and make the stat changes. And every time he submitted the list he’d always get called out for something new.

 

[pika pal]

I just kind of wonder why they went with the Paradox exclusivity for one or two species instead of electing to go all-or-nothing on them.

Not counting the Donphan and Volcarona matches, Each version has 5 regular Paradoxes. Of them

• Hydreigon and Tyranitar are Scarlet exclusive compared to Iron Jugulis and Thorns.
• Flutter Mane has Misdreavus exclusive to Violet.
• Roaring Moon is Scarlet while Salamence is Violet. Yet the Ralts line is in both rather than separated from Iron Valiant
• Scream Tail, Brute Bonnet, Sandy Shocks, Iron Bundle, and Iron Hands have their relatives in both versions

It's weird to me because it's uneven and not totally consistent there. Scarlet has 2 Paradox "exclusive" relatives, while Violet has 3, and not even necessarily each others' counterparts at that (I assume owing to Valiant not being based on a Pseudo like Dragapult). If it was 2/5 or 3/5 for both I'd sort of see it, or even if the fractions were reversed to 3 Scarlet "missing" relatives vs 2 Violet, due to the "Past Odd, Future Even" theming going on with the stat totals. It makes me wonder if maybe a Dragapult Paradox was initially planned (as a fast Special Attacker counterpart to Roaring Moon's Physical) and later dropped in favor of Valiant to fit the Mega Evolution reference.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

I just kind of wonder why they went with the Paradox exclusivity for one or two species instead of electing to go all-or-nothing on them.

Not counting the Donphan and Volcarona matches, Each version has 5 regular Paradoxes. Of them

• Hydreigon and Tyranitar are Scarlet exclusive compared to Iron Jugulis and Thorns.
• Flutter Mane has Misdreavus exclusive to Violet.
• Roaring Moon is Scarlet while Salamence is Violet. Yet the Ralts line is in both rather than separated from Iron Valiant
• Scream Tail, Brute Bonnet, Sandy Shocks, Iron Bundle, and Iron Hands have their relatives in both versions

It's weird to me because it's uneven and not totally consistent there. Scarlet has 2 Paradox "exclusive" relatives, while Violet has 3, and not even necessarily each others' counterparts at that (I assume owing to Valiant not being based on a Pseudo like Dragapult). If it was 2/5 or 3/5 for both I'd sort of see it, or even if the fractions were reversed to 3 Scarlet "missing" relatives vs 2 Violet, due to the "Past Odd, Future Even" theming going on with the stat totals. It makes me wonder if maybe a Dragapult Paradox was initially planned (as a fast Special Attacker counterpart to Roaring Moon's Physical) and later dropped in favor of Valiant to fit the Mega Evolution reference.

Idk it makes sense to me with the context of previous games. At this point the pseudos as a group, as well as Misdreavus, have an established history of version exclusivity in the main series, while Gardevoir/Gallade, Jigglypuff, Amoonguss, Magneton, and Hariyama do not (I don't think White Forest counts).

Delibird is an outlier here, having been a version exclusive in Gens 2-4, but it's never had a consistent counterpart (it's Sneasel in FRLG and maybe Gligar in GSC/HGSS?) and it's appeared in every main series game after HGSS (excluding LGPE and PLA for obvious reasons) without being a version exclusive. Also, the main specialty shop in SV bears its name and likeness, so they probably wanted it to be available in both games.

It seems to me, then, that whether a Pokemon was made a version exclusive and whether it got a Paradox form were entirely independent considerations, but once they had their list of Paradox mons they deliberately made it so that any version-exclusive base forms were only available in the opposite version from the Paradox mon.

 

[Pikachu315111]

It seems to me, then, that whether a Pokemon was made a version exclusive and whether it got a Paradox form were entirely independent considerations, but once they had their list of Paradox mons they deliberately made it so that any version-exclusive base forms were only available in the opposite version from the Paradox mon.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but why? Okay, it's done on purpose... why?

Going back to an above example, while annoying that Houndoom's and Manectric's Mega Stones were in the other version they were exclusive to, at the very least I can explain that away with them wanting to encourage trading of either the Pokemon or the Stones. And then, once you have both the Pokemon and Stone in the same game, you get access to that Mega Pokemon. Reason, Purpose, & also Reward!

But here... it's all question marks with nothing to show. There is nothing gained from having both in the same version, when you're trading them you're gonna trade Paradox Pokemon for Paradox Pokemon and the com mon exclusives for other com mon exclusives (or, in these games case, join someone via Union Circle and catch the Pokemon that spawned due to being connected to their game).

And as pika pal went over it's not like they're all just the filler Paradox Pokemon, one of them in the "Mega" Paradox.

It makes me wonder if maybe a Dragapult Paradox was initially planned (as a fast Special Attacker counterpart to Roaring Moon's Physical) and later dropped in favor of Valiant to fit the Mega Evolution reference.

Why need Dragapult when we have Tyranitar that can fill that role? "But Tyranitar isn't a Special Attacker". Yeah, but that doesn't mean Iron Thorns couldn't be. Heck with Iron Thorns stubby arms maybe they should have made it more like a turret sentry. Instead of Rock/Electric it could be Electric/Dark. And if they want to have a "Dark-type that loses that Type thus becomes kinder", they still have Iron Jugulis (make it Dragon/Flying, or better yet Dragon/Steel and make it resemble a tank!).

 

[pika pal]

Why need Dragapult when we have Tyranitar that can fill that role? "But Tyranitar isn't a Special Attacker". Yeah, but that doesn't mean Iron Thorns couldn't be. Heck with Iron Thorns stubby arms maybe they should have made it more like a turret sentry. Instead of Rock/Electric it could be Electric/Dark. And if they want to have a "Dark-type that loses that Type thus becomes kinder", they still have Iron Jugulis (make it Dragon/Flying, or better yet Dragon/Steel and make it resemble a tank!).

I mentioned Dragapult simply because to my knowledge it's the only Version Exclusive Pseudo in SV that isn't linked to a Paradox, so it seemed the most immediate to slot into the role if we weren't rearranging any already existing mons and relatives and instead just having "Iron Artillery" or something.

It is also uncommon for the Paradoxes to totally change attacking type (if not role) from their counterparts, to my knowledge that only occurring with Slither Wing (who's a dual Counterpart with Iron Moth), Brute Bonnet to some extent (it's still a slow high-HP mon but becomes Offensive instead of an all-rounder like Amoongus's stats), and the "Legendary" Paradoxes post-release (Wake is Sweeper offensive vs Suicune's Tank, as is Iron Leaves vs SpD focused Virizion).

 

[RocketSurgery]

I think the fanbase cares way more about symmetry and parallelism than GameFreak does. GF probably just thought it would be funny if a few of the original forms were exclusives in the opposite version to the paradoxes, but didn't feel the need to make it the case for every paradox mon.

I think GF tries to roughly balance things, but likes that balance being imperfect. Personally I think that feels more interesting, and natural and less contrived. Admittedly it sometimes means one version ends up with a Zacian and the other a Zamazenta, and occasionally there are contrivances for the sake of balance like not giving Garchomp dragon dance, but overall I think it's better than the two versions basically being mirror images of one another.

 

[Bakugames]

mount licks Penny just straight-up don't make sense with Miraidon because it doesn't have a tongue,

 

[Coronis]

DD obviously made sense at the time, though now especially it’d be cool if it is retconned in. Hopefully theres a Tera Chomp/event Chomp with DD at some point during SV’s lifespan.

Idk how common it is for GF to specifically exclude a move for OP reasons, as flavourwise the Garchomp line should 100% have it, was Garchomp any good in Gen 4 VGC?

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

Ultimately I think it suits this thread better to discuss in-game lore and logic rather than game design choices, because if there isn't an immediately obvious explanation, the answer to "why did the devs do this?" will almost always be "they just thought it'd be neat"

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Ultimately I think it suits this thread better to discuss in-game lore and logic rather than game design choices, because if there isn't an immediately obvious explanation, the answer to "why did the devs do this?" will almost always be "they just thought it'd be neat"

Was literally going to post something in this thread this morning and mmmyeah this more or less probably answers it

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Pokemon that appear in Viridian Forest in HGSS thanks to swarms or special radio programs: Kricketot, Spoink, Budew, Carnivine, and... uh... Numel.

What's a mountain-dwelling Fire-type doing in a forest full of grass and insects? (Killing them all, one assumes)

 

[Pikachu315111]

Pokemon that appear in Viridian Forest in HGSS thanks to swarms or special radio programs: Kricketot, Spoink, Budew, Carnivine, and... uh... Numel.

What's a mountain-dwelling Fire-type doing in a forest full of grass and insects? (Killing them all, one assumes)

It's especially odd as Diglett's Cave is right next to it which would have made more sense.

Let's see, well, according to the Hoenn/Sinnoh sounds list, Numel is the only Ground-type, so maybe its there as a reference to Giovanni? Then again, it would have also been the perfect spot to place Plusle and Minun but for some reason they were placed on Route 2, right outside of the forest.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

It's especially odd as Diglett's Cave is right next to it which would have made more sense.

Let's see, well, according to the Hoenn/Sinnoh sounds list, Numel is the only Ground-type, so maybe its there as a reference to Giovanni? Then again, it would have also been the perfect spot to place Plusle and Minun but for some reason they were placed on Route 2, right outside of the forest.

Being a reference to Giovanni is a stretch, particularly since Giovanni has no particular connection to Viridian Forest in the games and hasn't ever used a Numel to my knowledge.

I guess Kanto isn't exactly brimming with Fire locations (Cinnabar Island being all-but wiped off the map didn't help) but as you said there's Diglett's Cave, Rock Tunnel, Mt Moon, Mt Silver, Victory Road... and honestly a whole bunch of routes. Like, literally anywhere would be less unfitting than Viridian Forest.

 

[R_N]

Only thing I can think of is they thought it fit aesthetically (it's a lazy yellow camel dude that probably just grazes on grass all the time) so they put it in Viridian & illex forest

Honestly I'd have just swapped it with Zigzagoon so it could show up in the Towers.

 

[Bug Maniac Aydon]

How come Poliwrath is not a frog? Its dex entry calls it the "Tadpole Pokemon".

I have a theory is that the Water Stone somehow interrupts its "normal" evolutionary process, trapping it as a tadpole form, as opposed to Politoed, who is a frog.

Another possible idea is that it is a species that never reaches maturity (some amphibians, such as axolotls, cannot mature on their own).

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Mechanically speaking, why does the Soul Dew exist? In fan-made rulesets like Smogon, it used to be banned because the Latis were busted with such huge boosts to their Special Attack and Special Defense, but this isn't something that Game Freak thought was balanced and then banned by fans. No, Game Freak knew that this item was busted. In official rulesets (both single and multiplayer) where restricted legendaries like Mewtwo and Kyogre are banned, Soul Dew is also banned, or disabled in the case of Gens 3 and 4 battle facilities. Game Freak had been making trios of unrestricted legendaries since Gen 1. Hell, they made another trio of unrestricted legendaries in Gen 3. But when it came to designing the first unrestricted legendary duo, Game Freak decided to also give them a held item that turned them into restricted legendaries because... why? What was the thought process behind intentionally giving them an item that makes them Mewtwo tier? What was the thought process behind intentionally forcing every game until Sun and Moon to muddy its official banlist with this one single item. Because again, it was intentionally busted. From its very conception, this held item was treated the same as whole restricted Pokemon by Game Freak themselves.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

Mechanically speaking, why does the Soul Dew exist? In fan-made rulesets like Smogon, it used to be banned because the Latis were busted with such huge boosts to their Special Attack and Special Defense, but this isn't something that Game Freak thought was balanced and then banned by fans. No, Game Freak knew that this item was busted. In official rulesets (both single and multiplayer) where restricted legendaries like Mewtwo and Kyogre are banned, Soul Dew is also banned, or disabled in the case of Gens 3 and 4 battle facilities. Game Freak had been making trios of unrestricted legendaries since Gen 1. Hell, they made another trio of unrestricted legendaries in Gen 3. But when it came to designing the first unrestricted legendary duo, Game Freak decided to also give them a held item that turned them into restricted legendaries because... why? What was the thought process behind intentionally giving them an item that makes them Mewtwo tier? What was the thought process behind intentionally forcing every game until Sun and Moon to muddy its official banlist with this one single item. Because again, it was intentionally busted. From its very conception, this held item was treated the same as whole restricted Pokemon by Game Freak themselves.

if there isn't an immediately obvious explanation, the answer to "why did the devs do this?" will almost always be "they just thought it'd be neat"

:)

That aside, I agree that it was a weird decision. You also can't even obtain the Soul Dew in Gens 3 and 4 without an event.

As you allude to in your post, it really just serves the same purpose that another restricted-level event legendary would have served: making children feel even more godlike as they crush the Elite Four for the 78th time. Does it need a purpose beyond that?

 

[DrPumpkinz]

:)

That aside, I agree that it was a weird decision. You also can't even obtain the Soul Dew in Gens 3 and 4 without an event.

As you allude to in your post, it really just serves the same purpose that another restricted-level event legendary would have served: making children feel even more godlike as they crush the Elite Four for the 78th time. Does it need a purpose beyond that?

I forgot that it used to be event-exclusive. So it may have initially been banned not because it was like a restricted legendary, but because it was like a mythical. Definitely makes the "because it's neat" explanation make more sense, and also gives people a reason to care about the event.