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SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon
- Thread starter stage7_4
- Start date
what mythical creature is gardevoir?
strange fictional beast known as an "women"
So, I'm not 100% sure if this qualifies for the thread, but considering N is a very mysterious character with a partially unanswered backstory and literally the first reply to this thread mentions him, I think this fits well enough.
So a theory/headcanon I've had for a while now is that N is the opposite of a mystery dungeon protaganist: a Pokemon who got turned into a human and teleported into the human world.
While there's no concrete evidence of this, it would explain a lot of his backstory. It would explain why he was just living in the wild with Pokemon, and was also able to survive, with no signs or hints of any parents. Because he was a pokemon that was teleported to a different world as a human. It would explain why Pokemon are very friendly with him, because they recognize that he's also kind of a pokemon. Most importantly though, it explains why he has the special ability to talk to pokemon; because he was previously a pokemon and obviously could do that back then. In fact, it even explains why Reshiram and Zekrom trust him (though tbf that's also because he's super kind to pokemon), because they recognize that he was a Pokemon. And with how many times humans have been turned into Pokemon and moved to a different universe, it makes sense it would happen the other way sometime.
Now, I was originally gonna say that this probably isn't actually the case, and that it's just a plausible headcanon, but then when I looked at his bulbapedia page to make sure there wasn't anything that disproves this theory, I noticed this....
Masuda himself straight up said that he's rumored to have pokemon parents. So....this might genuinely be correct??? I assume that he meant that lore-wise this is rumored, not by the fanbase....in which case, that implies this could genuinely be the intention.
So a theory/headcanon I've had for a while now is that N is the opposite of a mystery dungeon protaganist: a Pokemon who got turned into a human and teleported into the human world.
While there's no concrete evidence of this, it would explain a lot of his backstory. It would explain why he was just living in the wild with Pokemon, and was also able to survive, with no signs or hints of any parents. Because he was a pokemon that was teleported to a different world as a human. It would explain why Pokemon are very friendly with him, because they recognize that he's also kind of a pokemon. Most importantly though, it explains why he has the special ability to talk to pokemon; because he was previously a pokemon and obviously could do that back then. In fact, it even explains why Reshiram and Zekrom trust him (though tbf that's also because he's super kind to pokemon), because they recognize that he was a Pokemon. And with how many times humans have been turned into Pokemon and moved to a different universe, it makes sense it would happen the other way sometime.
Now, I was originally gonna say that this probably isn't actually the case, and that it's just a plausible headcanon, but then when I looked at his bulbapedia page to make sure there wasn't anything that disproves this theory, I noticed this....
Masuda himself straight up said that he's rumored to have pokemon parents. So....this might genuinely be correct??? I assume that he meant that lore-wise this is rumored, not by the fanbase....in which case, that implies this could genuinely be the intention.
So, kinda like the N is Zoroark theory? Honestly, this explanation makes a lot of sense
Replying with this part here because it's actual conspiracy talk and not just irritation at something wrong with the scenario (which it does bear, but clarifying since this is two separate replies I'm making)
So my thing with the AI is that I can't remember any lines that confirm or deny that they wouldn't recognize you (as opposed to being able to interpret it as feigned ignorance in hindsight), but post-hoc my take is that the Professor's encounter with you at the Crystal Pool is why the AI specifically hones in on you as the keystone for the shutdown plan. The professor's account would include that you had bonded with the Raidon that recognized them, and given the Pokemon's importance to entering the crater (and potentially having to contend with the aggressive one), no reason to disrupt the pairing if it's taken a liking to you already. Keeping things on track with stuff the original Professor mentioned/remembered would actually iron over some "because video game" bits from the base story like the AI acting through you as a random new kid and a group of students instead of (in the guise of the professor) informing members of the School or League who have more authority over the matter and should be relatively capable in terms of battling in Area Zero. If not the AI knowing the bootstrap paradox needs things to be the same, it at least sets a precedent of "this child is capable of bonding with this Legendary Pokemon, they're not just a rando I'm gambling on" from the account for a logic they act on.
For Heath I have another theory: What if he was pulled into Area Zero in a time where the Paradoxes did exist (be it their "native" time period or during the Professor's work) and documented them during that time thinking it was just the expedition? This would account for his encountering Terapagos (as the entity that causes the other "brought here from another time/place" incident), the absence of the Paradoxes when the Tera Project commenced, the dream-like recollection, and the fantastical nature of the event that he was discredited for, which the game wants us to think real given the Paradoxes but simultaneously raises more questions/inconsistencies that it points out.
This is also why I think the Professor encounter exists: It establishes that Terapagos can do this in some fashion, but doesn't explicitly do it with Heath to confirm it. At the same time it throws a(nother) wrench into the Professor's timeline and the nature of the Paradox Pokemon to keep people speculating, ending with two open-ended story threads instead of two definitively answered ones.
The way the encounter is talked about in the book frames it as him only vaguely able to remember what happened and his only notes on the subject were strange diagrams we're not fully privvy too
So I don't think he was displaced and then wrote about the Paradoxes from there, the (heh) timeline and context of the other entries doesn't line up. It really sounds like his encounter in the underdepths was a separate, limited affair.
It's still interesting to me that there's unused nametag for Heath in the base game (like Billy & O'hare) and makes me wonder if the original plan was to have us meet Heath in that situation in the DLC and they scrapped it entirely in favor of the more poignant Professor meeting. It'd have to have been a substantially different meeting, at least, not just in tone but in content (What were those diagrams meant for....). I have to imagine Briar would've been involved...
Fascinating stuff. It's amazing how much speculation and theories could arise from Area Zero, just makes me love the place even more. Trough I still think the pool scene was not satisfactory enough, and the fandom did definetly overthink things with the imagination theory (like, looking back, we were literally told about and shown a time machine but people still thought that was a red herring lol)
Then again I do have to wonder, how can people see the dead at the pool without Terapagos being there...? I mean it could be an unrelated folk tale but it seems obvious to me you are meant to connect the two.
While it could be simply foreshadowing as to how you do indeed meet the dead real Professor I can't help but wonder if she being the one to mention how apparently people see the dead at the pool means she was supposed to go there again once we had Terapagos and her desire of seeing Heath would bring him there. There would still be lots of questions, like if our raidon is the one on the cover, do we tell him the Paradox name? (there is said option when talking to the Professor) Even if he meets Terapagos there as well (who for some reason would be in Stellar form and completeley chill?), what would explain the wild Donphan-esque that attacked the crew? I really wish we knew what they had on mind.
Then again I do have to wonder, how can people see the dead at the pool without Terapagos being there...? I mean it could be an unrelated folk tale but it seems obvious to me you are meant to connect the two.
Where does it say Arceus was the one who banished Giratina? I don't recall ever seeing that said.
Strictly speaking I do not think they say directly who banished it. Maybe Cynthia or a Hiker had a line about it that I forget.
But like, if anyone was able to have the authority & Power to do it it would be Arceus.
Then Legends Arceus makes it pretty clear even without stating literally "Arceus" did it
""This crumbling statue once was the figure of a Pokémon–one that was equal to both Dialga and Palkia, yet banished from our world...The great Pokémon Giratina! It was banished for its violence, left to dwell in a world on the reverse side of our own. It is a being that has lain in wait for the chance to bare its fangs in defiance and tear down Arceus itself.""
Now, if we can find the realm that exists on the reverse side of our world...and meet the creator's unwanted child banished therein...
Spooky Plate: "The other side of this world was given by the Original One to its raging third."
Ok then.
Anyways, I think its time we explored Giratina more. They say they were banished for their violence, but what are the specifics? was it their nature in general, or a specific act? Does them showing up to save Dialga and Palkia mean it has gotten over their grudge against Arceus, or or were their siblings always exempt from their hatred? Did they show up instead to stop Cyrus specifically? if so, why? Why did they attack us when we entered the Distortion realm? how can they both be banished to and rule over the distortion realm?
We'll probably never know the specifics (& it's interesting how the plates present it as Arceus giving the Distortion World to Giratina rather than a punishment) of the act of violence that lead to this but the others we can intuit:
-it was mad at Arceus. Volo's "unwanted child" comment is probably projection ,but can be seen as just as relevant to Giratina. You can figure disagreements at how it was treated (or perceived to be treated) and such.
-the end result of the events of L:A got it to calm down more. It tried and failed to a trainer to protect things more and fighting it again for the capture calms it more. It's the "bridge" between the raging vs swooping in to save things hundreds of years later
-The dialog in Platinum states directly it's in a rage because of what Cyrus did/was attempting, and then further into a rage because now both worlds are in danger. USUM implies this would have happened in a D/P timeline as well had the lake spirits not stopped things from escalating further.
-Just because you're banished doesn't mean you can't rule. Especially when you're the only being there, in a land ostensibly meant to keep balance. Arceus banished it to the other side of the world to rule over it and help mold its rage productively if the plates are anything to go by.
Ask Satan
What about the girl from ORAs who can also talk to pokemon? is she a pokemon too?
Do not in fact ask Satan, him ruling over Hell is from 17th century fanfiction* and not part of the official canon™ of any Christian or even Abrahamic or Abrahamic adjacent theologies**, Satan is either an angelic job title, a prisoner in Hell or Hell is an invalid concept depending on the denomination but Satan is never its ruler unless you're referencing Paradise Lost, which is, once again, non-canon
*You need to be recognized in an official council in order to be part of the canon™, which councils count varies according to the specific denomination
**This doesn't apply any Neo-pagan tradition who also claims to be Christian somehow due to the eclectic variety of their beliefs
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I unironically appreciate the pedantry, but I do think I should confirm that my pithy wisecrack was not, in fact, claiming to speak on the basis of canonical religious doctrine.
One should always held themselves to the highest of academic standards young man!I unironically appreciate the pedantry, but I do think I should confirm that my pithy wisecrack was not, in fact, claiming to speak on the basis of canonical religious doctrine.
specially when discussing serious topics such as Pokemon
This isn't exactly a mystery (never know where to post 'weird little thing you noticed that you neither like nor dislike'), but I was looking at the Emerald Gym Leader rematch rosters and noticed something odd about their Pokemon's relative levels. It's always been clear that the Leaders are essentially paired off to form four rough power tiers: Roxanne and Brawly's aces cap out at Level 52, Wattson and Flannery's at 55, Norman and Winona's at 60, and T&L seem to get a one-level penalty for having dual aces (65 vs Juan's Level 66 Kingdra). What I'd never noticed before, though, is that several Leaders have higher average levels than their immediate superiors.
Roxanne's final team is half a level higher than Brawly's, on average (48.83 vs 48.33), T&L's Pokemon have a 1.17-level edge over Juan's (64 vs 62.83), and Norman has an impressive 1.5-level advantage over Winona per Pokemon (57.33 vs 55.83).
I understand why Roxanne might get a covert buff to compensate for her still having Nosepass as her ace, but her team's Rock Slide/EQ/Explosion/Protect spam feels like a more competent Doubles strategy than whatever Brawly's trying to accomplish with his movesets (FOUR Pokemon with Focus Punch??). T&L's final rematch team is pretty weak, so the extra levels do help, but then why not just give them stronger team additions to put them closer to Juan without outlevelling him? As for Norman, there's possibly a Dad bonus, where his team's given an extra kick because of the PC's personal relationship with him. Also, maybe his extra levels are meant to compensate for him having a fully pure-Normal team with no beneficial secondary types.
The way the Emerald rematches are structured makes this all meaningless anyway. They become available so slowly that you're likely way beyond their power level whenever they do challenge you, so you won't have time to notice the minutiae of their teams. Regardless, it's pretty strange! Might investigate other rematch teams with level variance to see if there are other surprises.
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EDIT: okay HGSS rematches are even weirder
Johto
Couple of anomalies with ace levels, but they aren't too far-fetched. I will say that I find it odd how Jasmine's 5-level gap between her Magnemite and her Steelix in her initial battle has seemingly been extrapolated and exaggerated in her rematch team, which has a massive 12-level gap between her Bronzong and her Steelix. Are we meant to infer that she puts extra effort into training her Steelix at the expense of her other Pokemon? To me, that conflicts with the rest of her characterisation as someone who cares for all Pokemon.
What's really weird, though, is that Chuck has the second-highest level average of the Johto Leaders, even ahead of Clair! His team also has three held items, more than any other Leader from Johto or Kanto.
Kanto
Surprising that Lt. Surge has the lowest average! It makes sense for him to have lowish levels in his first battle, since the player's likely to challenge him first after arriving in Kanto proper, but between the initial Leader battles and the rematches he slips back a place, behind even the newcomer Janine. Brock and Misty land in an impressive 4th and 3rd place, respectively (honestly, we might as well ignore Blue and say 3rd and 2nd). Like Surge, it seems like maybe their placing reflects the effort required to reach their initial battles rather than their respective ranks from RBYFRLG. It's also possible that they got a minor anime nostalgia boost (also Brock, like Emerald Roxanne, is sticking with an underwhelming ace and probably needs the boost).
Roxanne's final team is half a level higher than Brawly's, on average (48.83 vs 48.33), T&L's Pokemon have a 1.17-level edge over Juan's (64 vs 62.83), and Norman has an impressive 1.5-level advantage over Winona per Pokemon (57.33 vs 55.83).
I understand why Roxanne might get a covert buff to compensate for her still having Nosepass as her ace, but her team's Rock Slide/EQ/Explosion/Protect spam feels like a more competent Doubles strategy than whatever Brawly's trying to accomplish with his movesets (FOUR Pokemon with Focus Punch??). T&L's final rematch team is pretty weak, so the extra levels do help, but then why not just give them stronger team additions to put them closer to Juan without outlevelling him? As for Norman, there's possibly a Dad bonus, where his team's given an extra kick because of the PC's personal relationship with him. Also, maybe his extra levels are meant to compensate for him having a fully pure-Normal team with no beneficial secondary types.
The way the Emerald rematches are structured makes this all meaningless anyway. They become available so slowly that you're likely way beyond their power level whenever they do challenge you, so you won't have time to notice the minutiae of their teams. Regardless, it's pretty strange! Might investigate other rematch teams with level variance to see if there are other surprises.
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EDIT: okay HGSS rematches are even weirder
Johto
| Leader | Levels | Sum | Average |
| Falkner | 50, 52, 52, 54, 48, 56 | 312 | 52 |
| Bugsy | 56, 48, 52, 55, 54, 52 | 317 | 52.83 |
| Whitney | 52, 50, 54, 54, 52, 58 | 322 | 53.67 |
| Morty | 52, 52, 52, 54, 57, 57 | 324 | 54 |
| Chuck | 54, 52, 55, 54, 56, 60 | 331 | 55.17 |
| Jasmine | 52, 56, 52, 50, 52, 62 | 324 | 54 |
| Pryce | 56, 58, 52, 52, 54, 60 | 332 | 55.33 |
| Clair | 56, 52, 52, 56, 52, 60 | 328 | 54.67 |
Couple of anomalies with ace levels, but they aren't too far-fetched. I will say that I find it odd how Jasmine's 5-level gap between her Magnemite and her Steelix in her initial battle has seemingly been extrapolated and exaggerated in her rematch team, which has a massive 12-level gap between her Bronzong and her Steelix. Are we meant to infer that she puts extra effort into training her Steelix at the expense of her other Pokemon? To me, that conflicts with the rest of her characterisation as someone who cares for all Pokemon.
What's really weird, though, is that Chuck has the second-highest level average of the Johto Leaders, even ahead of Clair! His team also has three held items, more than any other Leader from Johto or Kanto.
Kanto
| Leader | Levels | Sum | Average |
| Brock | 55, 54, 56, 61, 55, 57 | 338 | 56.33 |
| Misty | 60, 56, 56, 54, 54, 60 | 340 | 56.67 |
| Surge | 60, 52, 52, 52, 58, 56 | 330 | 55 |
| Erika | 54, 53, 56, 56, 60, 55 | 334 | 55.67 |
| Janine | 52, 56, 52, 58, 59, 55 | 332 | 55.33 |
| Sabrina | 60, 58, 56, 54, 53, 53 | 334 | 55.67 |
| Blaine | 54, 57, 60, 58, 54, 62 | 345 | 57.5 |
| Blue | 67, 69, 70, 68, 70, 72 | 416 | 69.33 |
Surprising that Lt. Surge has the lowest average! It makes sense for him to have lowish levels in his first battle, since the player's likely to challenge him first after arriving in Kanto proper, but between the initial Leader battles and the rematches he slips back a place, behind even the newcomer Janine. Brock and Misty land in an impressive 4th and 3rd place, respectively (honestly, we might as well ignore Blue and say 3rd and 2nd). Like Surge, it seems like maybe their placing reflects the effort required to reach their initial battles rather than their respective ranks from RBYFRLG. It's also possible that they got a minor anime nostalgia boost (also Brock, like Emerald Roxanne, is sticking with an underwhelming ace and probably needs the boost).
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As far as I'm aware it's never been confirmed that the PMD universe is even canon relative to the main series, although it hasn't been debunked either. I'm also not sure the idea that N would be able to communicate with Pokemon if he was one who was turned into a human necessarily tracks. Can the PMD protagonists communicate with humans while in Pokemon form? We don't really know.
The idea of N being a former Pokemon is an interesting one regardless of how PMD ties into it, but I prefer to see him as simply having been orphaned or abandoned and raised from a young age by Pokemon, a la Julie of the Wolves. I also had a headcanon for a while that N is the Zoroark he uses in battle but in hindsight that's probably not true and there are several instances where we see both at the same time, even if we extend plausible deniability to him sending out... himself in a battle.
Rounding out my earlier post with BDSP, the last games to have Gym Leader rematches with interesting level variation both within and between the rosters of each Leader.
BDSP
Volkner has a particularly high-level ace, presumably to mark him out as the strongest, at least canonically. Maylene's Lucario is two levels higher than the aces of her peers, perhaps as a nod to her quirk in the Platinum Battleground, where each member of her team is one level higher than the standard for every other trainer there. She doesn't retain the associated handicap of not using items, but her team overall has lower levels that bring her average in line with her placement in the Leader lineup.
Of course, what's most notable is that Byron comes out on top here, as the sole Leader to break the pattern of average level increasing according to badge order. This is true even after having his Aggron nerfed by one level in the first post-release game update. I can't say I have any ideas about why he got singled out. If it's to compensate for his lack of a weather strategy, why is Fantina's average just barely higher than Wake's when the latter has the scariest Rain team that I've ever seen on an NPC?
BDSP
| Leader | Levels | Sum | Average |
| Roark | 68, 66, 70, 68, 64, 72 | 408 | 68 |
| Gardenia | 66, 70, 69, 68, 68, 72 | 413 | 68.83 |
| Maylene | 64, 66, 68, 70, 72, 74 | 414 | 69 |
| Wake | 68, 68, 68, 70, 70, 72 | 416 | 69.33 |
| Fantina | 68, 65, 70, 70, 72, 72 | 417 | 69.5 |
| Byron | 69, 69, 70, 70, 71, 72 | 421 | 70.17 |
| Candice | 68, 70, 68, 70, 70, 72 | 418 | 69.67 |
| Volkner | 70, 70, 70, 66, 68, 75 | 419 | 69.83 |
Volkner has a particularly high-level ace, presumably to mark him out as the strongest, at least canonically. Maylene's Lucario is two levels higher than the aces of her peers, perhaps as a nod to her quirk in the Platinum Battleground, where each member of her team is one level higher than the standard for every other trainer there. She doesn't retain the associated handicap of not using items, but her team overall has lower levels that bring her average in line with her placement in the Leader lineup.
Of course, what's most notable is that Byron comes out on top here, as the sole Leader to break the pattern of average level increasing according to badge order. This is true even after having his Aggron nerfed by one level in the first post-release game update. I can't say I have any ideas about why he got singled out. If it's to compensate for his lack of a weather strategy, why is Fantina's average just barely higher than Wake's when the latter has the scariest Rain team that I've ever seen on an NPC?
For most of the series's life, the ancient past has been associated with the Rock type through the fossil Pokemon and Ancient Power. Gen 8 came along and introduced the first non-Rock fossil Pokemon, but that got written off as just some interesting trivia. After all, their gimmick of being two creatures mashed together wouldn't really work as well if they couldn't carry that dual nature into the types.
But then Gen 9 rolls around with a ton of new Pokemon themed around the ancient past, and the primary mechanical associations are Fighting and sun. Koraidon could have easily been Rock/Dragon with a suped-up Sand Stream for an ability, but they chose not to go this route. It makes me wonder if Rock's time as "the prehistoric type" has come to an end.
But then Gen 9 rolls around with a ton of new Pokemon themed around the ancient past, and the primary mechanical associations are Fighting and sun. Koraidon could have easily been Rock/Dragon with a suped-up Sand Stream for an ability, but they chose not to go this route. It makes me wonder if Rock's time as "the prehistoric type" has come to an end.
I enjoyed the argument, but the counterargument exists with the Glimmet line who I believe are for all intents and purposes considered very old Pokémon. They clearly have an indelible connection to Tera, and Terapagos is an extremely old Pokémon.
I think we always knew that fossil Pokémon were different from the Pokémon that existed before they went extinct. Really the poster for that was Aerodactyl, since it wouldn’t have made much sense for Aerodactyl’s original form to be made of rock, despite it perhaps making more sense for its fellow fossil Pokémon who live in the ocean. Rock-Type was never meant to portray that all old Pokémon were Rock-Type, rather that the rock element is responsible for preserving that species at all so that it can be restored in contemporary time in some way. The Glimmet family continues that legacy by seemingly having Tera power within it in some way.
Glimmet being Rock because it's old isn't a thought that had crossed my mind before. I thought it was because it's a living crystal. Same reason why Carbink or Gigalith are Rock-type.
I don’t think it’s rock because it’s old, I think it’s old because it’s rock. Tera has been preserved through mineral state in the same way that the Glimmet line exists in a mineral state. That’s the same ideology that fossil Pokémon always had, where an essence of their species was preserved in mineral form.
What is going on with the Magnemite line in Legends Arceus?
Ok, so at first it looks like a space-time distortion exclusive. The implication the line isn't supposed to exist in this time period appears to be a contradiction of AZ's story in XY where Magnemite was in the flashback of the ancient war, but I suppose Game Freak can be forgiven for forgetting a relatively minor detail from a whole different region's story.
Except, once you reach Coronet Highlands, there's wild Magnezone just floating in the air in a few areas. If you're not paying attention, it's really hard to notice.
So which is it? Right now it comes off like they got all the encounter tables done before someone pointed out the aforementioned contradiction and so they haphazardly dumped Magnezone in the only place they could.
Ok, so at first it looks like a space-time distortion exclusive. The implication the line isn't supposed to exist in this time period appears to be a contradiction of AZ's story in XY where Magnemite was in the flashback of the ancient war, but I suppose Game Freak can be forgiven for forgetting a relatively minor detail from a whole different region's story.
Except, once you reach Coronet Highlands, there's wild Magnezone just floating in the air in a few areas. If you're not paying attention, it's really hard to notice.
So which is it? Right now it comes off like they got all the encounter tables done before someone pointed out the aforementioned contradiction and so they haphazardly dumped Magnezone in the only place they could.