Resource National Dex AG Viability Rankings [DLC I]

Status
Not open for further replies.

Icemaster

Few will truly understand.
is a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
OMPL Champion
This is the last VR slate. We will vote and update the VR for the last time ideally a few days before the 22nd. Make your noms now or never!

Nominations:
:Ditto:A -> A-: Ditto really does incredibly in the Stall or HO MUs. Neither of those builds are good now. Bulky Offense is not threatened by Ditto that much, Ditto teams in general will have a far weaker defensive core as Ditto offers nearly nothing defensively, and so it's not too hard for MRay/Yve/PDon/CM LO ogre to just overwhelm these teams. There's far more games now where Ditto is far less useful than it used to be when it was initially nommed to A rank (HO was actually "good" then). The one HO which is good - webs - actually has a neutral or good MU vs Ditto funnily enough. See this replay from NDPL (where Nevelle would have won if he wasnt so unlucky). Ditto is still decent, but its not brilliant as the A rank would suggest.

:Ferrothorn: A- -> B+: What does this actually check? Nothing anymore. Defog Arcs body and remove all progress it has in terms of spikes, can switch on seeds to pp stall it, unless it has Toxic, which it can't fit. Specs Ogre busts it. CM LO Ogre breaks it. It can't fit what it needs on 4 moveslots; it simultaneously needs koff while also needing leech seed, protect and power whip. Running it without spikes is kinda pointless. It's hugely pressured by the best mons right now. Looking at the VR it literally only stays in on two mons above A- safetly, NDM and Pogre. I wouldn't switch it in on Groundceus, because if Groundceus happens to be SD, you just lost the game. This thing just gets taken advantage of by too much as it gets OHKOed by too much (Ray, Zacian, Yve, Zygarde, Groudon Primal, Ho-Oh, Xern with Sub, can't touch defog ceus, gets perish trapped). It still kinda checks ogre and can annoy with spikes seeds, so it's still ok I guess, but to put it next to staples like Groundceus, above Fairyceus and next to Kyogre is wack.

:Arceus:: B to A-: SD arcs are great right now, Ekiller is no exception, it can OHKO support arc formes in dynamax after rocks and does crazy amounts to the entire defensive metagame. Crazy dynamax abuser, eats a Zacian CC/behe and KOs back it can also boost up its SpDef. Setting it up isn't hard either. Good luck offensively checking this outside of Zacian-C, who is actually not too difficult to whittle down between Rocks and Rocky Helmet NDM. Once whittled down enough (to about 55% iirc), Ekiller kills at +2.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Max Strike vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Water: 398-468 (89.6 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Max Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 360-425 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Max Quake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 349-411 (87.6 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Arceus: 512-606 (63.8 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Arceus: 512-606 (63.8 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zacian-Crowned: 156-183 (47.8 - 56.1%) -- 85.2% chance to 2HKO
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1194018894 makes the HO mu really easy
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1195785874-b4y7ck1afoprhhn3zo6l19a0aq8xa8dpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1189581229-kraar31elhv2eycyuan6urra0rp55zvpw

Skimming through the thread, these noms might have already been done by people but they're noms I really agree with:

  • Fairyceus: B+ to A-: Absolutely, it's a staple Arceus form.
  • Rockceus: UR to B or B+: I'd go further than D, you'll have to trust me on this but I've been using this a lot and it's actually a crazy mon. Glad that chloe told me to build around it. If National Dex AG existed for 2 more months I feel this could become a staple. 330 speed, max HP and rest spdef is what I run, and it beats the unbeatables - countering Mega Rayquaza (I run Wisp Defog on mine), beating non Toxic Eternatus, improving the Yve MU a lot. Its an alternative to Fairyceus which has a better Ray MU but worse vs mons like Zygarde, so you can run the same sets. Prevalence of Dusk Mane isn't a huge worry, Wisp is an OHKO move.
  • :Marshadow:: B- to B: Band Marsh is actually quite a good mon. It 2HKOs many of the common arc formes with rocks up, or mons like Fairyceus which run no defense in a 2HKO. Really a pain for a lot of teams to deal with, and it's dynamax is pretty potent too.
    252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fairy: 225-265 (50.6 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Water: 198-234 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO
  • :Kyogre: to A rank. No brainer. 3rd best offensive dynamaxer. It exerts immense teambuilding pressure and literally only has 1 counter, Arceus-Water with Calm Mind and Dynamax.
 
Last edited:
now for my nom: Mega Lucario to d rank
This mon I feel deserves some recognition. It absolutely tears bulky balances apart, being able to OHKo ndm after Stealth rock chip and a sd. It can do the same for support arceuses that run 240 defense, and does over 90% to defensive pdon sets, let alone offensive sets. Now, it is very useless against HO, but right now HO is terrible and very few people run it. It does get outclassed by ray in most situations though, but I do feel like it should at least deserve a d rank.
calcs:
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Ground: 398-470 (89.6 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Groudon-Primal: 362-426 (89.6 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO defensive pdon with 56 def
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 378-446 (94.9 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 310-365 (88.3 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO this calc is inrelevant, but it just goes to show you how insane lucario mega's cc is to switch into
+2 252+ Atk Lucario-Mega Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 166-196 (39.9 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO this means that if the lugia is lefties it's guarenteed ohko


replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1197234569 all you need to see, game vs ice. I missplayed by playing not aggressive enough, but by this replay you can see that mega lucario presured Ice's balence extremely.
 
Last edited:
Was going to post a nom for Kyogre but you guys beat me to it. Dynamax Kyogre is so damn good. Shout outs to whoever first came up with that set. It is such a deadly wallbreaker that takes full advantage of a metagame where everyone is preparing more for Yveltal and not as much for Kyogre. It can also defensive dynamax against Yveltal if need be because of it's high special defense. Kyogre´s Dynamax is a little hard to scout for too because it's Scarf and Specs sets are viable too. Hard to scout for too if you have other potential dynamaxers on your team like Necrozma DM.
 

aerobee

Pure Hackmons
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
:Chansey: to A

This thing's a godly special wall, being able to comfortably tank special attacks from almost any mon), provided the opposing mon's unboosted. Its phenomenal HP and Eviolite boost allows it to take a physical non-SE hit, unless it's a SE move like Close Combat. Soft-Boiled allows it to stall Dynamaxed Xerneas, and Toxic/Confide can nullify its threatening presence.

Teleport Chansey's a really good pivot, which can ensure a safe switch to another mon at the end of the turn. It almost always moves last (If you somehow go first, you can be pretty sure the opposing mon's using Trick Room). Aromatherapy's another amazing move that Chansey can run, so it can take care of the other mons on your team when they get status'd.

Natural Cure's an amazing ability that lets Chansey be a switch-in to mons that take advantage of status like Ho-Oh.

Taunt Yveltal's definitely an issue for it, but if predicted well the user can switch to Arceus-Fairy/Zacian-C/Ditto safely. The only other problems I see are that some special mons like to run physical coverage for Chansey (the occasional Close Combat Xerneas), and that there is the occasional mgar/Gothitelle, but I feel that this is enough to justify a rise to A.

+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 232-274 (36.1 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Max Starfall vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 319-376 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 294-348 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Max Darkness vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 208-246 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO
(Dark Pulse)
4 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Max Darkness vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 374-442 (58.2 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Knock Off)
252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Heavy Rain: 264-312 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 199-235 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- 68.1% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Kyogre Max Geyser vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 253-300 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Origin Pulse base)
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 313-369 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO
 
Last edited:
:Chansey: to A

This thing's a godly special wall, being able to comfortably tank special attacks from almost any mon), provided the opposing mon's unboosted. Its phenomenal HP and Eviolite boost allows it to take a physical non-SE hit, unless it's a SE move like Close Combat. Soft-Boiled allows it to stall Dynamaxed Xerneas, and Toxic/Confide can nullify its threatening presence.

Teleport Chansey's a really good pivot, which can ensure a safe switch to another mon at the end of the turn. It almost always moves last (If you somehow go first, you can be pretty sure the opposing mon's using Trick Room). Aromatherapy's another amazing move that Chansey can run, so it can take care of the other mons on your team when they get status'd.

Natural Cure's an amazing ability that lets Chansey be a switch-in to mons that take advantage of status like Ho-Oh.

Taunt Yveltal's definitely an issue for it, but if predicted well the user can switch to Arceus-Fairy/Zacian-C/Ditto safely. The only other problems I see are that some special mons like to run physical coverage for Chansey (the occasional Close Combat Xerneas), and that there is the occasional mgar/Gothitelle, but I feel that this is enough to justify a rise to A.

+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 232-274 (36.1 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Max Starfall vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 319-376 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 294-348 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Max Darkness vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 208-246 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO
(Dark Pulse)
4 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Max Darkness vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 374-442 (58.2 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Knock Off)
252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Heavy Rain: 264-312 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 199-235 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- 68.1% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Kyogre Max Geyser vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 253-300 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Origin Pulse base)
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 313-369 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO
While chansey is a fantastic special wall capable of crushing ladder along with lugia, it's wayyy too passive and completely gets shutdown by taunt from ygod. Speaking of chains checking ygod, it loses to knock off and taunt variants. Xern can comfortably overwhelm non confide sets with sub. It also invites in tons of threatening mons for free like Pdon, Offensive Ndm, whirlsong arcs etc.
Also just gonna note while megar is rare it is absolutely terrifying if it gets in freely can just win the game for the oppo
 
:groudon:
D ---> B/B-
This thing is great! One turn of setup can fuck up a lot of mons.

252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Max Quake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 290-343 (73.6 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Possible damage amounts: (290, 294, 298, 300, 304, 308, 312, 313, 317, 321, 325, 328, 331, 335, 339, 343)


252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Max Rockfall vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 728-858 (175 - 206.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (728, 733, 743, 754, 759, 769, 780, 785, 795, 806, 811, 821, 832, 837, 847, 858)


+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Max Quake vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Arceus-Water: 598-706 (134.6 - 159%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (598, 606, 612, 620, 628, 633, 641, 649, 655, 663, 668, 676, 684, 690, 698, 706)


+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Max Quake vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Giratina: 476-562 (94.6 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (476, 481, 487, 493, 499, 504, 511, 515, 520, 526, 532, 538, 543, 550, 555, 562)


Thank you arifgoku for being the brains behind this!
And Geysers for liking don.
 
Last edited:

Fardin

formerly skooma
er back for more noms cause we about to switch to galar and i see a lot of outdated rankings rn that i wanna share my opinion on, no hate plsssss

Xern from S- to A+: this thing has been over prepped by people for a long time and with dm being a staple to every team + zac and etc and etc, its not as good as it used to be. the only place we see it mostly these days is on ho, and occasionally a balance. defo not what it used to be and does not meet the standards of S-

Pdon from A+ to S-: imo pdon has always deserved S- for its typing, stats and movepool. argubly the best rocker in the game and one of the most annoying mon to face against due to the diverse set it has, starting from mixed erupt, to toxic srock, or double dance/sd rest set which just gained popularity. unlike other mons that have many different sets, with pdon, every single one of em is the best at what its supposed to do and is extremely good across numerous mu. the current arc spam meta has definitely been helping it out as well. just a mon thats overlooked in general

Ground Ceus from A- to A: asaik, ground ceus got to A- because of its support role, which it fully deserves, but for the longest time, people been overlooking how consistent SD is on this beast. let it be with the filler of recover that generally gives u great longevity vs numerous mons, or the 3 attack one with ice beam which shits on its better checks in zyg, the current wish pool meta with at least 2 mons that weak to ground arc structures get dismantled extremely easy. Also cm set is an absolute menace on an ho, let it be 2 attack recover, or 3 attack with thunder. I don't know why we don't see this pokemon more often, but its the best mon vs the current generic teams.

Tyranitar-Mega from B+ to C: i can kinda understand why this was at b+, because pre agpl i heard mray wasn't as common as it is now, and people usually had a leftover spot for a mega slot, and with mray not being a thing, there was less reason to shuca too, and chople wasn't needed at all during those days i assume, so yeah, mega made sense to be ranked equal to normal, but that is simply not the case anymore. altho most mrays don't run eq anymore, just its presence alone is taking away a huge junk in mega ttar's viability thats taking away a mega slot from it.

Arceus-Ghost from B+ to B: small decrease but imo its needed. B+ made sense in a meta where ditto was extremely common and it gave u a mon on ho that is self improofed, but with the meta shifting to a more bulkier arc spam one where dark ceus has seen a huge rise, along with how this mon can really be only fit on ho and etc, B is already very generous imo.

Gliscor from B to D: this mon kinda made sense at B due to the sets pdon used to ran and how the meta was in general, but with mray seeing a rise, along with most teams usually having a perish trapper along with an ice beam arceus user, and etc and etc, it just has been a mon that has kinda been left on vr and not been noticed imo.

Ho-Oh from A+ to A: this mon had a huge reason for how the current meta has turned, which speaks of how big of an impact it had on ag, but just like with marsh in gen 7, people eventually started prepping for it more and more, and it has become less of a nuisance. with the rise of mray, the numerous new attackers that were pretty much designed to beat it someway, sedge being mandatory on pdon and etc and etc, simply not as useful as it used to be but still a damn good mon to have on a lot of balances.

Arceus Steel from UR to B: kind of a bold nom from ur to b but i truly believe this has been another mon that has never really been picked up. it finally gives people a mon that can come in on ascent and not be scared out from vcreate like dm. I'm not saying its a replacement for it, but a lot of teams can appreciate this. it comes with what it did in usum, with the toxic resistance and typing which makes it pretty cool with yve if it gets to that and with the current meta where it literally sets up on dm whenever it wants to and vs like 95% of support arcs. one of its biggest asset is that max steel spikes boosts def, which will take only about 36% from a defensive pblade pdn and just straight up ohkos zac after cc drop after dyna. thunder also just beats hooh and prevents it from phazing out and also happens to annoy water arc as well which most now run perish trap on. and etc

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1203113135-2qfy1if45i1lxscjhgw0sr83abqfg18pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1200395207

just a couple replays of it since its a UR mon as of now
 
Imma keep this short and to the point
Ferro,glis,msable
Are all good walls in ou
But in ag they are set up fodder for many pokemon and they barely check anything let alone counter anything
Just look at the list of pokemon and try to find anything that thinks "oh no a ferro/glis/sable"
Just in general most stuff can muscle past them pretty easy or doesn't care because how passive they are
Now you can stop reading because this is enough to get the point across, the rest is just me tearing into these lads

I wouldn't be caught dead running any of these mons in ag, they are all just hella outclassed

If i wanted a fat spiker i would pick deoxys or fortress before ferro

If i wanted a defog or sr user that doesn't get chipped bad by status i would use arceus or dusk mane before glis

If i wanted a magic bounce user i would pick mega diance or hat over sable because they actually can gain some momentum from switching into rocks by having the ability to apply some form of pressure that isn't a weak knock off, wisp, foul play

-salt
 
Imma keep this short and to the point
Ferro,glis,msable
Are all good walls in ou
But in ag they are set up fodder for many pokemon and they barely check anything let alone counter anything
Just look at the list of pokemon and try to find anything that thinks "oh no a ferro/glis/sable"
Just in general most stuff can muscle past them pretty easy or doesn't care because how passive they are
Now you can stop reading because this is enough to get the point across, the rest is just me tearing into these lads

I wouldn't be caught dead running any of these mons in ag, they are all just hella outclassed

If i wanted a fat spiker i would pick deoxys or fortress before ferro

If i wanted a defog or sr user that doesn't get chipped bad by status i would use arceus or dusk mane before glis

If i wanted a magic bounce user i would pick mega diance or hat over sable because they actually can gain some momentum from switching into rocks by having the ability to apply some form of pressure that isn't a weak knock off, wisp, foul play

-salt
Ferrorthorn can check certain arc form, pogre and scarf ogre while also having knock + spikes + rocks. A- or B+ is fine. Also Forretress and defensive deoxys are bad please don't use them

Gliscor while it has been falling off, it gains a niche over others with passive recovery and a great typing along with options like sand tomb, knock and guillotine.

Sableye keeps rocks off from the premier rock setter unlike the other 1 you mentioned while also having reliable recovery. Also being able to do hefty damage to ZaCian is really great
 
Ferrorthorn can check certain arc form, pogre and scarf ogre while also having knock + spikes + rocks. A- or B+ is fine. Also Forretress and defensive deoxys are bad please don't use them

Gliscor while it has been falling off, it gains a niche over others with passive recovery and a great typing along with options like sand tomb, knock and guillotine.

Sableye keeps rocks off from the premier rock setter unlike the other 1 you mentioned while also having reliable recovery. Also being able to do hefty damage to ZaCian is really great
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 145-171 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

If you switch this thing into ogre on spout, it just spouts again as you leech then switches into anything on the protect
Unless you tryna dynamax ferro its ability to check is only on a free switch in thats not even metioning how prone it is to wear and tear.
Also checking support arceus is a joke NOT even a counter just a check.
I swear if when you said certain arc forms you meant cm or ekiller i would call you a random insult from the first ladder kid i see.

Yet again glis has passive recovery but just gets muscled past to the point it doesn't matter.
Also glis has awful typing for all the ice and water going around, only good things are stab eq(coming off a base 90 atk in a tier flooded with ubers) and ground immunity

You can keep the point about sable checking sr necro but thats not really that impressive tbh

Also just going to point out how short your list of things each mon "helps" deal with is, these pokemon are niché and not in a good way
 

Kate

Metamodernity
is a Past SCL Champion
If i wanted a fat spiker i would pick deoxys or fortress before ferro
Dear god I hope not.
If i wanted a magic bounce user i would pick mega diance or hat over sable because they actually can gain some momentum from switching into rocks by having the ability to apply some form of pressure that isn't a weak knock off, wisp, foul play
...what

If you are arguing for why these mons are horrible, you've done a very poor job of it. No competent player this side of the moon is going to pick deoxys defense over ferrothorn or hatterene over msab.
 
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 145-171 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

If you switch this thing into ogre on spout, it just spouts again as you leech then switches into anything on the protect
Unless you tryna dynamax ferro its ability to check is only on a free switch in thats not even metioning how prone it is to wear and tear.
Also checking support arceus is a joke NOT even a counter just a check.
I swear if when you said certain arc forms you meant cm or ekiller i would call you a random insult from the first ladder kid i see.

Yet again glis has passive recovery but just gets muscled past to the point it doesn't matter.
Also glis has awful typing for all the ice and water going around, only good things are stab eq(coming off a base 90 atk in a tier flooded with ubers) and ground immunity

Also just going to point out how short your list of things each mon "helps" deal with is, these pokemon are niché and not in a good way
Checking defensive threats and forcing them out is still important. And are you saying cm arcs are bad?
Also due to leech seed chip it weakens water spout, slowly but surely. And you say they just switch out. You've still done the job since they've been forced out. And of course you ignore the main thing: spikes putting plently of pressure for pokemon like zygarde and eternatus and others.


Viable pokemon that run ice or water moves in ag

:arceus: (water, ground,e killer sometimes,electric)
:kyogre:
:kyogre-primal:
:mewtwo-mega-y:
:quagsire:
:lugia: (rarely)

Gliscor also is not as easy to break through as you claim due to threats like guillotine.

You can keep the point about sable checking sr necro but thats not really that impressive tbh
Just wanted to pick this out. Do you have any idea how good that is? It's the best rocker and not only forcing it out

The pokemon aren't niche because what they help with is actually really good. Maybe not B+ Rank but defnitely worthy of B

So anyway now that's finished I'm tossing a few more noms into the ring.

:rayquaza-mega: to S-. It's still one of the best pokes in the tier and is a gigantic threat but putting it next to ndm and ZaCian is a little to high imo. It's better than ygod and xern ofc so should only go to S-.

:Kyogre-primal: to B+
It's still a formidable wall breaker but it faces huge competition with it's base form due to the ability to dynamax and hold an item. It has it's place if you have a dynabuser already and don't appreciate being locked.

:deoxys-speed: to B-. HO is terrible atm and this is only good on HO.
On this point I'd like to say
:vivilion: to D
:smeargle: to B
:grimmsnarl: to D
:excadrill: to UR
 
Last edited:
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 145-171 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

If you switch this thing into ogre on spout, it just spouts again as you leech then switches into anything on the protect
Unless you tryna dynamax ferro its ability to check is only on a free switch in thats not even metioning how prone it is to wear and tear.
Also checking support arceus is a joke NOT even a counter just a check.
I swear if when you said certain arc forms you meant cm or ekiller i would call you a random insult from the first ladder kid i see.

Yet again glis has passive recovery but just gets muscled past to the point it doesn't matter.
Also glis has awful typing for all the ice and water going around, only good things are stab eq(coming off a base 90 atk in a tier flooded with ubers) and ground immunity

You can keep the point about sable checking sr necro but thats not really that impressive tbh

Also just going to point out how short your list of things each mon "helps" deal with is, these pokemon are niché and not in a good way
I strongly suggest you go to the ag room and ask around for some help. I know some people who helped me understand the meta game at large and I am sure they would be just as happy to help you too.
 

Chloe

is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
NUPL Champion
henlo and welcome to the final national dex anything goes viability ranking update before the crown tundra! this is sort of a farewell in a way, as we'll be focusing most of our time and resources on the upcoming galar dex format, but i'm sure resources for natdex will be revisited in some fashion in the future. it's been a fun time, but it's time to advance on to the new ag meta, which will hopefully be even better!! anyway, let's get onto the changes that happened!

! also an important thing to mention before we begin! we were left with 3 pokémon in s- and 1 in a+ by the end of the update, so these pokémon were both merged into a+. just keep this in mind going forward, but i'll reiterate when we get to the relevant pokémon.

rises
:arceus: (Fairy) B+ to A-
:arceus: (Ground) A- to A
:arceus: (Normal) B to A-
:arceus: (Poison) C to B-
:arceus: (Rock) UR to D
:arceus: (Steel) UR to B-
:groudon: D to C
:groudon-primal: A+ to S- // following merge, relocated back to A+
:kyogre: A- to A
:magearna: D to C
:marshadow: B- to B
:quagsire: D to C
:zekrom: B- to B

:arceus: (Fairy) | fairyceus is one of, if not the best yveltal checks in the metagame, will-o-wisping potential switchins zacian-c / dm, it's virtually a requirement for any team running not darkceus.
:arceus: (Ground) | groundceus's offensive sets are rising again in prevalence, sd has positive matchups vs the majority of the metagame, and cm is only picking up in prominence with ho-oh losing its relevance.
:arceus: (Normal) | another sd arc thats only gotten better is ekiller, it's a great dynamax abuser that people don't really prepare for at all, bar defensive dm/zyg which aren't substantial enough and can be overcome with coverage.
:arceus: (Poison) | poisonceus is one of the better xerneas answers with many teams running dm, dynamaxing it, and still being 1v1'd, still will-o's potential switchins in zacian/dm, and overall has flown under the radar for a while now.
:arceus: (Rock) | rockceus is a great ray check in a metagame where vc ray is 90% of all rays, while also easing yveltal pressure substantially. it's a support arc with a good typing, you know what it does.
:arceus: (Steel) | steelceus is a nice cm arc option that has little problem setting up on common balances, accumulates defensive boosts via dynamax, and just overall be a menace for most teams to deal with.
:groudon: | groudon is a prominent dmax threat, aerial ace airstream is all it needs to boost its speed, and then it can run whatever coverage it desires.
:groudon-primal: | pdon rose to s- initially, as in the current meta it is just short of amazing, it checks a substantial amount of threats, helps with the rise or increase of ogre / cm water / whirlpool perish arc, it's just generally something most teams can throw off effortlessly, that's without even considering offensive erupt or sd sub or any other set it manages to pull off. it dropped back to a+ when we merged s- and a+ however.
:kyogre: | kyogre is an amazing dynamax mon, cm lo has no reliable checks, choiced sets are only increasing in prominence, it's the third best dynamax target in the metagame, and it really is a force to be reckoned with.
:magearna: | magearna's baton pass sets in the current metagame are quite difficult to stop, especially with the decrease of phazing and ho-ohs lack of usage overall. shift gear baton pass into strong woosh threat.
:marshadow: | marshadow only got better with the introduction of polt and the vr was never rly updated to reflect that. band is honestly a very solid set, 2hkoing the whole metagame. bulk up lo poltergeist is also not too shabby, and both sets just help push marshadow back to relevance in a metagame that previously failed to see this.
:quagsire: | quaggeroo :poggaroo: is a lot better, it already walled zac which is something like 2 mons can do reliably, but it's becoming ever more relevant with sd arc rising in usage, among a plethora of other minor metagame shifts pushing it higher in viability.
:zekrom: | zekrom is an offensive dynamax threat that benefits off the expansive usage of ndm (90% tour usage in latest ndpl), sub + dd then sweep the majority of common balances with ease. pair it with zacian and force ndm in, theres not much more you can ask for from mr zekky.

drops
:arceus: (Flying) D to UR
:diancie: C to D
:diancie-mega: B- to D
:ditto: A to A-
:excadrill: C to D
:gliscor: B to C
:grimmsnarl: C to D
:ho-oh: A+ to A
:tyranitar: B+ to B
:tyranitar-mega: B+ to B
:vivillon: C to D

:arceus: (Flying) | flyceus saw almost no usage, and was increasingly hard to justify over other cm arcs / stronger dmax threats.
:diancie: :diancie-mega: | diancie has fallen off, with the increase in usage of darkceus and fairyceus which both ease yveltal pressure substantially + do a whole lot more, it's just way too hard to justify. the mega is a similar case too.
:ditto: | ditto doesn't appreciate the current meta trends, namely that our meta is forced towards a stalemate where bulky offense and balance are of overwhelming prominence, but it's still good, just hard to justify alongside metagame staples like darkceus and waterceus.
:excadrill: | exca doesn't appreciate this aforementioned meta shift, but ho has struggled all generation, being yet another rocks lead in a meta where bouncers aren't all that common and ho struggles a lot of the time is not fun.
:gliscor: | gliscor is finding it hard to bust through common balances anymore, it just overall has fallen off a lot since its initial ranking.
:grimmsnarl: | grimmsnarl is yet another screens lead in a meta where those kinds of offensive builds struggle. its 4x dark resistance gives it a niche in a meta plagued by yveltal so it can at least justify d.
:ho-oh: | ho-oh has had a tough few months, but it's something that many balances will now forgo due to the ability to check yveltal with fairyceus or darkceus, as well as a myriad of other meta trends such as cm water picking up just really not being in ho-oh's favour.
:tyranitar: :tyranitar-mega: | tyranitar also hates this increase in spdef arc usage, as its niche in checking yveltal is increasingly hard to justify. sand is annoying as hell in a meta where you're forced to run defensive ndm to repeatedly switch into zacian-c, which can't recover well in sand. it's a similar case with the mega. spdef arcs are just a lot better. it still has a niche as it does check yveltal better and it also helps with ray, but its niche isn't substantial enough for b+ anymore.
:vivillon: | vivillon has fallen off a lot, if you wanna run something to this effect run power trip smeargle or some shit.

rejected
:arceus: (Ghost) B+ to B
:chansey: B+ to A
:eternatus: A to A+
:kyogre-primal: A- to B+
:landorus-therian: UR to D
:lucario-mega: UR to D
:rayquaza-mega: S to S-
:xerneas: S- to A+ // following merge, relocated to A+


:arceus: (Ghost) | ghostceus is still a prominent meta threat, with most teams having little to no defensive answers, other than darkceus. sd arcs are just overall quite good in the current meta, and ghostceus is no exception to this.
:chansey: | chansey is very good, don't get me wrong, but such a substantial raise is pushing it, b+ fits chansey much better, especially when it's still a passive as hell mon that doesn't appreciate the increasing prevalence in sd arcs, mray, etc that can abuse it well.
:eternatus: | im gonna be real dawg this aint it. eternatus isn't worth A+ rank, especially with the rise in spdef dark (again), spdef pdon, offensive groundceus. lack of reason to really run it. defensive sets fail to check ogre anymore, fail to capitalise off of the prevalence of ho-oh, which is no longer a thing. etern is much better suited in a.
:kyogre-primal: | primal ogre is still good in a-, your argument is odd as the increase in usage for regular ogre barely affects this
:landorus-therian: | lando-t just doesn't have a sufficient enough niche to justify ranking. especially in a meta that isn't particularly geared towards hyper offense currently.
:lucario-mega: | mega lucario is virtually impossible to justify on a serious team. sure it likes darkceus, but why would i ever run this over sd mray which does 10x more than mluc does, even if i wanted to run it over zacian-c because "it beats dm" then assurance zac would be the way to go, i don't see the reason to really go with this sorry.
:rayquaza-mega: | mray is still as amazing as it was a month ago, nothing has really changed for it to fall, it's still easily a top 3 mon in the meta without question.
:xerneas: | xern is still a fantastic dmax mon, especially with a notable lack of checks, forcing dm to dmax and hence removing dmax for the remainder of the match, it hasn't done anything to justify a drop. this however is kind of a moot point for me to make when we dropped it anyway to merge with a+ but i digress.

that's it for this final vr update! we thank you for your continued participation all year, and hope to see it hopefully continue into the new metagame! thanks a lot y'all!!

sheet: click
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top