Resource National Dex AG Viability Rankings [DLC I]

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time for some wack opinions based on a few weeks in ladder and a teamtour

:Rayquaza-Mega: A+ -> S
Imo a top 3 (arguably 2) consistent mon in the tier, this mon is probably the single most reliable way to make progress, often being even more effective at that than zacian-c. Ray + Zac was easily one of the most consistent cores across all of agpl and for good reason: both pretty much dont have counters and both are REALLY good at either forcing a kill, forcing a dynamax, or both, setting up for the other to go to town. Offensively, Ray has the versatility to make the opponent respect LO mixed, LO DD, and banded attacks, while defensively, it's one of the best checks to the ORAS legendaries and is capable of eating hits from just about every defensive mon in the meta and 2hkoing or ohkoing back. In a dmax centric meta (look at xern in S- and yvel in S), being able to force defensive dmax or kills without dmaxing yourself often sways games in the ray user's favor.

:Ho-oh: A+ -> S-
Something I realized was that you can be facing a team where all 6 mons have counterplay for Ho-oh, the rocker beats Ho-oh, and somehow Ho-oh will still be useful. It's really just regen being an incredible ability - having a Ho-oh in the back (that can also potentially dmax) gives rise to a far greater range of plays for the Ho-oh user both that the user can draw from and that the opponent must respect. Its utility is insane, letting you fit fog and phasing on every team. Ho-oh + NDM was such a common and effective defensive core this agpl that it feels a little weird seeing Ho-oh in a tier below DM.

:Arceus-Water: A- -> A (but actually A+)
| 6 | Arceus-Water | 39 | 28.26% | 64.10% |
To be clear, the main set I'm talking about is the CM set (CM + surf+recover +ice beam/refresh/earth power), but surf/tox/filler/recover is also worth a mention. Erupdon and regular ogre came onto everyone's radar in agpl and this set is one of the best at stopping them. It's also just an incredible defensive mon and a wincon in general. Extremely consistent, very easy to fit onto teams (6th in usage!), reliable dmax wincon that also does work w/o dmax, idk what else youd want (In my opinion it's more consistently good than etern and even zyg).

:Ferrothorn: A- -> B+
Yeah this mon sucks. Spikes are really good and defenses r decent but that's where it stops. Ho-oh's common enough that if youre not running knock then you're gambling on a lot to go your way. And if you are, it's awful vs everything else. If I'm picking a mon thats giving free turns vs Yvel, Zac, Ray, Pdon, and Xern (if knock) in this meta it better be coming back from the dead and performing miracles, and ferro doesn't do any of that. It's not horrible bc spikes are still rly good and some mus it can check a lot, but end of the day the consistency isnt there.

:Lunala: B -> A-
Set Ive been liking is Roost/Twave/Moongeist/Defog. Being a fogger that forces out ndm/defensive don is nice, and the luxury of having a pretty reliable ray/noncrunch zac switchin is invaluable. Also the best MMY check. Just a rly nice alternative or even supplement to ndm.

:Arceus-Grass: UR -> B
(Arc grass) the sd set is unironically really good, might even be better than ground- try it out!! Works the same as groundy but better vs some grounds/waters and smashes most cheese.

:Marshadow: B- to B
Scarfs great at trading vs broken setup, and one of the best speed control ur gonna get in ag. Also got buffed w DLC because now banded poltergeist 2hkoing all its former checks is a thing

:Smeargle: B+ -> S+
this mon isnt beatable. when i see more than 1 smeargle on the other side the counterplay is usually forfeit
 
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time for some wack opinions based on a few weeks in ladder and a teamtour

:Rayquaza-Mega: A+ -> S
Imo a top 3 (arguably 2) consistent mon in the tier, this mon is probably the single most reliable way to make progress, often being even more effective at that than zacian-c. Ray + Zac was easily one of the most consistent cores across all of agpl and for good reason: both pretty much dont have counters and both are REALLY good at either forcing a kill, forcing a dynamax, or both, setting up for the other to go to town. Offensively, Ray has the versatility to make the opponent respect LO mixed, LO DD, and banded attacks, while defensively, it's one of the best checks to the ORAS legendaries and is capable of eating hits from just about every defensive mon in the meta and 2hkoing or ohkoing back. In a dmax centric meta (look at xern in S- and yvel in S), being able to force defensive dmax or kills without dmaxing yourself often sways games in the ray user's favor.

:Ho-oh: A+ -> S-
Something I realized was that you can be facing a team where all 6 mons have counterplay for Ho-oh, the rocker beats Ho-oh, and somehow Ho-oh will still be useful. It's really just regen being an incredible ability - having a Ho-oh in the back (that can also potentially dmax) gives rise to a far greater range of plays for the Ho-oh user both that the user can draw from and that the opponent must respect. Its utility is insane, letting you fit fog and phasing on every team. Ho-oh + NDM was such a common and effective defensive core this agpl that it feels a little weird seeing Ho-oh in a tier below DM.

:Arceus-Water: A- -> A (but actually A+)
| 6 | Arceus-Water | 39 | 28.26% | 64.10% |
To be clear, the main set I'm talking about is the CM set (CM + surf+recover +ice beam/refresh/earth power), but surf/tox/filler/recover is also worth a mention. Erupdon and regular ogre came onto everyone's radar in agpl and this set is one of the best at stopping them. It's also just an incredible defensive mon and a wincon in general. Extremely consistent, very easy to fit onto teams (6th in usage!), reliable dmax wincon that also does work w/o dmax, idk what else youd want (In my opinion it's more consistently good than etern and even zyg).

:Ferrothorn: A- -> B+
Yeah this mon sucks. Spikes are really good and defenses r decent but that's where it stops. Ho-oh's common enough that if youre not running knock then you're gambling on a lot to go your way. And if you are, it's awful vs everything else. If I'm picking a mon thats giving free turns vs Yvel, Zac, Ray, Pdon, and Xern (if knock) in this meta it better be coming back from the dead and performing miracles, and ferro doesn't do any of that. It's not horrible bc spikes are still rly good and some mus it can check a lot, but end of the day the consistency isnt there.

:Lunala: B -> A-
Set Ive been liking is Roost/Twave/Moongeist/Defog. Being a fogger that forces out ndm/defensive don is nice, and the luxury of having a pretty reliable ray/noncrunch zac switchin is invaluable. Also the best MMY check. Just a rly nice alternative or even supplement to ndm.

:Arceus-Grass: UR -> B
(Arc grass) the sd set is unironically really good, might even be better than ground- try it out!! Works the same as groundy but better vs some grounds/waters and smashes most cheese.

:Marshadow: B- to B
Scarfs great at trading vs broken setup, and one of the best speed control ur gonna get in ag. Also got buffed w DLC because now banded poltergeist 2hkoing all its former checks is a thing

:Smeargle: B+ -> S+
this mon isnt beatable. when i see more than 1 smeargle on the other side the counterplay is usually forfeit
Now let's discuss why those are just not good noms


:Rayquaza-Mega: A+ -> S - This just isn't as good as zacian and yveltal. I could MAYBE see it in S- but no higher. It detests fairyceus's prominence

:Ho-oh: A+ -> S- . This is kind of reasonable but not really. It isn't as important as necrozma dusk due to there actually being various other defoggers unlike pokemon that can check xerneas, zacian , non v create Ray etc.

:Arceus-Water: A- -> A (but actually A+). Usage doesn't equal good. Look at Nat Dex OU tapu koko usage. It is a rlly good Arceus form but definitely not on par with HO-oh, p dön and Ray.

:Ferrothorn: A- -> B+. Loool. So it doesn't matter that it counters pogre, one of the most threatening breakers in the tier? Doesn't matter that knock + Spikes is insane? Doesn't matter tha it can spread status with thunder wave and chip with leech?

::Lunala: B -> A-:. No it's defensive set is outclassed by lugia. Offensive sets are also outclassed by other ghost breakers like ghostceus and megengar. Being a fogger that beats ndm is great but definitely not enough for a-.
:Arceus-Grass: UR -> B. Sure. The SD arc that relies on fucking bullet seed as the grass stab and has a garbage typing.
:Marshadow: B- to B. This just isn't that good this gen. Scarf removes boosts and still dies which is just not good. ZaCian is hands down the best speed control and it also just rlly struggles to break zygarde. And lol poltergeist over spectral Thief.

:Smeargle: B+ -> S+. Easily abused by substitute. Misty terrain from geoxern disables it. Safety goggles zygarde just sit in front of it. And it's weak as hell.

Now that is out of the way I will make my own nom.

:xerneas: to A. It's still a very potent Dynamax abuser but chansey + ndm is on every team now and Xern in S- is a relic of the past. It also now gets walled by shedinja.

Speaking of which....
:shedinja: to C. This mon is still kinda bad but due to hidden power / judgement nerf it can wall a few more things like xerneas, cm ogre as well as what it walled before like non dark coverage ZaCian, pogre, arceus that don't carry SE coverage, zygarde etc. Edit : Imo this should be in a theoretical D+ But that doesn't exist so....

Also one more nom.

:gliscor: to B-. This mon has always just kinda been there. However in AG while it's bulk is decent in OU, it just doesn't cut it in AG. Idt being immune to toxic and walling non eruptio//HP ice p Don and ndm is worthy of B+. The rise of kyogre is also really bad for it. I could see it in B but idk
 
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Geysers

greysers
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Now let's discuss why those are just not good noms


:Rayquaza-Mega: A+ -> S - This just isn't as good as zacian and yveltal. I could MAYBE see it in S- but no higher. It detests fairyceus's prominence

:Ho-oh: A+ -> S- . This is kind of reasonable but not really. It isn't as important as necrozma dusk due to there actually being various other defoggers unlike pokemon that can check xerneas, zacian , non v create Ray etc.

:Arceus-Water: A- -> A (but actually A+). Usage doesn't equal good. Look at Nat Dex OU tapu koko usage. It is a rlly good Arceus form but definitely not on par with HO-oh, p dön and Ray.

:Ferrothorn: A- -> B+. Loool. So it doesn't matter that it counters pogre, one of the most threatening breakers in the tier? Doesn't matter that knock + Spikes is insane? Doesn't matter tha it can spread status with thunder wave and chip with leech?

::Lunala: B -> A-:. No it's defensive set is outclassed by lugia. Offensive sets are also outclassed by other ghost breakers like ghostceus and megengar. Being a fogger that beats ndm is great but definitely not enough for a-.
:Arceus-Grass: UR -> B. Sure. The SD arc that relies on fucking bullet seed as the grass stab and has a garbage typing.
:Marshadow: B- to B. This just isn't that good this gen. Scarf removes boosts and still dies which is just not good. ZaCian is hands down the best speed control and it also just rlly struggles to break zygarde. And lol poltergeist over spectral Thief.

:Smeargle: B+ -> S+. Easily abused by substitute. Misty terrain from geoxern disables it. Safety goggles zygarde just sit in front of it. And it's weak as hell.

Now that is out of the way I will make my own nom.

:xerneas: to A. It's still a very potent Dynamax abuser but chansey + ndm is on every team now and Xern in S- is a relic of the past. It also now gets walled by shedinja.

Speaking of which....
:shedinja: to C. This mon is still kinda bad but due to hidden power / judgement nerf it can wall a few more things like xerneas, cm ogre as well as what it walled before like non dark coverage ZaCian, pogre, arceus that don't carry SE coverage, zygarde etc. Edit : Imo this should be in a theoretical D+ But that doesn't exist so....

Also one more nom.

:gliscor: to B-. This mon has always just kinda been there. However in AG while it's bulk is decent in OU, it just doesn't cut it in AG. Idt being immune to toxic and walling non eruptio//HP ice p Don and ndm is worthy of B+. The rise of kyogre is also really bad for it. I could see it in B but idk
I honestly disagree with just about everything you’ve said here. Ray is an incredibly dominant presence that can reliably force dynamax or just break straight through teams. I honestly find it far more splashable than, say, Yveltal, since it provides lots of valuable defensive utility in addition to being a nuclear breaker.

Ho-oh to S- honestly makes a lot of sense in my eyes, considering that it’s easy to fit on basically every team, and it fits there while providing a reliable pivot into just about the whole meta.

Arceus-Water is insanely good rn since it soft checks zacian while also checking pdon, ray, dm, and zyg. In my experience, it’s been really easy to fit onto balanced or defensive teams, and it does a ton of work in every match. That being said, I’d say it’s more of an A pokemon than an A+ one, considering that it often can get overwhelmed since most matches contain multiple of the pokemon it checks. Also: usage in AGPL = good. While ladder usage is not indicative of a mon’s viability or lack thereof, usage in a major tournament like AGPL is actually a very strong indicator.

I also think that ferro should be dropped, since while spike support is very nice, the huge rise in prominence of Pokemon like Arceus-Water recently means that it’s kinda redundant as an Ogre check.

I do disagree with the Lunala nom, since defensive sets have appeared exceedingly lackluster lately, although choice specs Lunala is an incredibly fearsome breaker, and it definitely shouldn’t be dropped further.

I don’t think grassceus should be in B. Maybe D or C? This just seems kinda drastic, although I do admit that it’s probably great for ladder lol.

I also don’t think marsh should rise, since it just kinda hits like a wet noodle against any form of balance.

Excuse me, WolfishOne, but I’m about 99% sure that the smeargle nom was a joke. :blobglare:

Honestly I think Xern has been climbing in prominence lately, thanks to a huge drop in Chanseys, and I still find it incredibly hard to deal with on a regular basis. Definitely don’t drop this beast.

Those other two noms are just dumb lol. Shed is too unreliable to fit outside of D-rank, since it’s essentially just an MU fish. Gliscor is still scary af since it reliably beats stuff like Ho-Oh and NDM, and uses them to get free guillotine turns (AAAAAAHHHHHH).
 
I honestly disagree with just about everything you’ve said here. Ray is an incredibly dominant presence that can reliably force dynamax or just break straight through teams. I honestly find it far more splashable than, say, Yveltal, since it provides lots of valuable defensive utility in addition to being a nuclear breaker.

Ho-oh to S- honestly makes a lot of sense in my eyes, considering that it’s easy to fit on basically every team, and it fits there while providing a reliable pivot into just about the whole meta.

Arceus-Water is insanely good rn since it soft checks zacian while also checking pdon, ray, dm, and zyg. In my experience, it’s been really easy to fit onto balanced or defensive teams, and it does a ton of work in every match. That being said, I’d say it’s more of an A pokemon than an A+ one, considering that it often can get overwhelmed since most matches contain multiple of the pokemon it checks. Also: usage in AGPL = good. While ladder usage is not indicative of a mon’s viability or lack thereof, usage in a major tournament like AGPL is actually a very strong indicator.

I also think that ferro should be dropped, since while spike support is very nice, the huge rise in prominence of Pokemon like Arceus-Water recently means that it’s kinda redundant as an Ogre check.

I do disagree with the Lunala nom, since defensive sets have appeared exceedingly lackluster lately, although choice specs Lunala is an incredibly fearsome breaker, and it definitely shouldn’t be dropped further.

I don’t think grassceus should be in B. Maybe D or C? This just seems kinda drastic, although I do admit that it’s probably great for ladder lol.

I also don’t think marsh should rise, since it just kinda hits like a wet noodle against any form of balance.

Excuse me, WolfishOne, but I’m about 99% sure that the smeargle nom was a joke. :blobglare:

Honestly I think Xern has been climbing in prominence lately, thanks to a huge drop in Chanseys, and I still find it incredibly hard to deal with on a regular basis. Definitely don’t drop this beast.

Those other two noms are just dumb lol. Shed is too unreliable to fit outside of D-rank, since it’s essentially just an MU fish. Gliscor is still scary af since it reliably beats stuff like Ho-Oh and NDM, and uses them to get free guillotine turns (AAAAAAHHHHHH).
Mega Rayquaza while is an incredibly powerful breaker, is it as viable as zacian crowned who is preying on the common arceus cores or yveltal who is just about the most potent dynamax breaker in the tier. And I never said Waterceus isn't good. I do agree it should be in A but no higher. Ferrothorn is still a great fairyceus, waterceus and pogre check. Spikes support and knock is great. Grassceus is just not a good typing. I'd say D at most. And then if the smeargle nom was a joke i think it's fair to say "Whoosh" to me :). Gliscor just doesn't fit in with other B+ Mons like 2 incredibly good trappers and one of the most challenging breakers in ghostceus. Definitely B rank and maybe B-.

Edit: My SubSwagger Marshadow is gonna destroy you all
 
I honestly disagree with just about everything you’ve said here. Ray is an incredibly dominant presence that can reliably force dynamax or just break straight through teams. I honestly find it far more splashable than, say, Yveltal, since it provides lots of valuable defensive utility in addition to being a nuclear breaker.

Ho-oh to S- honestly makes a lot of sense in my eyes, considering that it’s easy to fit on basically every team, and it fits there while providing a reliable pivot into just about the whole meta.

Arceus-Water is insanely good rn since it soft checks zacian while also checking pdon, ray, dm, and zyg. In my experience, it’s been really easy to fit onto balanced or defensive teams, and it does a ton of work in every match. That being said, I’d say it’s more of an A pokemon than an A+ one, considering that it often can get overwhelmed since most matches contain multiple of the pokemon it checks. Also: usage in AGPL = good. While ladder usage is not indicative of a mon’s viability or lack thereof, usage in a major tournament like AGPL is actually a very strong indicator.

I also think that ferro should be dropped, since while spike support is very nice, the huge rise in prominence of Pokemon like Arceus-Water recently means that it’s kinda redundant as an Ogre check.

I do disagree with the Lunala nom, since defensive sets have appeared exceedingly lackluster lately, although choice specs Lunala is an incredibly fearsome breaker, and it definitely shouldn’t be dropped further.

I don’t think grassceus should be in B. Maybe D or C? This just seems kinda drastic, although I do admit that it’s probably great for ladder lol.

I also don’t think marsh should rise, since it just kinda hits like a wet noodle against any form of balance.

Excuse me, WolfishOne, but I’m about 99% sure that the smeargle nom was a joke. :blobglare:

Honestly I think Xern has been climbing in prominence lately, thanks to a huge drop in Chanseys, and I still find it incredibly hard to deal with on a regular basis. Definitely don’t drop this beast.

Those other two noms are just dumb lol. Shed is too unreliable to fit outside of D-rank, since it’s essentially just an MU fish. Gliscor is still scary af since it reliably beats stuff like Ho-Oh and NDM, and uses them to get free guillotine turns (AAAAAAHHHHHH).
Regarding the situation in the S-tier and
1597248256000.png
, based on what I saw in AGPL II, I personally also think that
1597248259938.png
should share the same seat as
1597248288358.png
. I think everyone within this forum agrees that no one can't let SD
1597248292163.png
or SD/DD
1597248298959.png
breathe for a single turn, or it easily brings an end-of-game scenario, without using Dynamax or a
1597248431667.png
.

Both arguably share a similar role of being excellent non-Dynamax wallbreakers that regularly force switches, and yielded high-win rates in AGPL II, which testifies their unparalleled wallbreaking consistency. As shown here, here, and here (Turn 25 is especially noteworthy here),
1597248694010.png
regularly took full advantage of free turns and notably forced a NDM to Dynamax in the matches.
1597249260068.png
also was an excellent cleaner and breaker, as shown the end of here, here, and here. But throughout the Week 5 matches, Semi-Final matches, and Grand Finals, why did
1597253231211.png
consistently have higher win rates and even higher usage stats except during Semi-Finals?

As shown in the replays,
1597248305540.png
does not like the abundance of Stealth Rock, Toxic, and the Supporteus Renaissance in the meta right now while
1597250737637.png
takes full advantage of this. Mega-Rayquaza's arguable biggest weaknesses is its longevity + average speed tier before DD, which impacts its ability to remain a threat unlike
1597254196885.png
. So while in theory and calcs
1597248313583.png
surpasses
1597248321947.png
in its highly prized LO SD/DD sets, it actually requires slightly or somewhat more team support than
1597248326007.png
. Despite this, I personally can conclude that
1597255392451.png
should be at least S-.
 
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Chloe

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NUPL Champion
Due to this thread having very little activity in the last month in tandem with my own boredom, I have decided to make a VR post. I'll be commenting on my own nominations, and then following through with my opinions on the above nominations. I'd also like to furthermore encourage more people to post their opinions on respective ranks, as it's always great to have added input. Most of my nominations are pertaining to the bottom of the VR, and some Pokemon in lower placements I see as being unnecessary inclusions.

My Own Nominations

:arceus: (Electric) | D to UR
Arceus-Electric is an odd case for an Arceus forme. While I believe it is still a potent Calm Mind set-up sweeper, and believe Electric is an underaccounted for offensive type, I very frequently when trying to build with this Pokemon just go screw it and run Calm Mind Water Arceus instead. I believe that Arceus-Water almost definitively outclasses Arceus-Electric. Water is a much better defensive typing, it can set up against the majority of the metagame, coming in on Ho-Oh and Necrozma-DM effortlessly. It has one viable immunity (Primal Groudon) in comparison to Electric's three common ones (Zygarde-C, Primal Groudon and Arceus-Ground). Electric requires substantial coverage to hit these three Pokemon and generally lacks any longevity due to this. Arceus-Water is simply wearing down the Primal Groudon prior to sending it in. With Arceus-Electric, you're forced to play mind games with your coverage, you can't remove status and you're generally a lot worse offensively and defensively. The advantages it has come from its defensive ability, being a competent Behemoth Blade switch-in, walling Dragon Ascent from Rayquaza, but this is underwhelming when you consider other coverage on these Pokemon 2HKO Arceus-Electric anyway. It can be run as a defensive Defog user that can wall non-Swords Dance, non-Play Rough Zacian-C, but is this the niche that can and should define its placement on the VR. I don't think so.

:arceus: (Ground) | A- to A
Probably the most controversial nomination here, but regardless of metagame trends being particularly unfavourable towards Arceus-Ground, I still see it as a top-tier threat. One capable of being in the same comparable rank as behemoths such as Eternatus. Defensive Arceus-Ground is still something you can throw on any team without much worry. I was against the initial demotion of this Pokemon, as I still feel that its defensive utility is incredibly beneficial. The ability to check Primal Groudon, Zygarde-C, Necrozma-DM, Ho-Oh (once inflicted with Toxic) is too good to ignore. The main and prominent reason for the demotion of this Pokemon was passivity, which I do agree with, but in the same way defensive Necrozma-DM could be considered passive. I don't think it's a fair slight on this Pokemon to argue that it allows Calm Mind Kyogre or Nasty Plot Mewtwo-Mega-Y to set up, when many other common passive threats don't face this same criticism. This Pokemon switches into many common potent threats with ease. Its passivity, while an issue for sure, isn't enough to demote it to A- when what it does do is amazing enough to justify A. While I'm sure this isn't a major point for any contention, I'm unsure why Mega Rayquaza was mentioned at all in the VR post. Was anyone considering Arceus-Ground a prominent check to Mega Rayquaza prior? Overall, Arceus-Ground deserves A in my eyes.

:diancie: | B- to C
While I am a fan of this Pokemon under the right conditions, it is just increasingly hard to justify. If the opponent doesn't have Yveltal, this Pokemon is borderline useless. I don't mean in the same way Encore Nasty Plot Mega Gengar is "useless" against offense, I mean like pouring water over a plastic plant useless. Dynamax Yveltal is such a prominent threat that it's not a terrible idea to run this Pokemon if your team is incredibly weak to it, but I'd rather use Specially Defensive Arceus-Dark/Fairy with their shortcomings or attempt to stall out Dynamax turns with Ho-Oh. Those Pokemon at least have substantial utility in non-Yveltal matchups. C suits this Pokemon better honestly. It's not worth it to run this 90% of the time.

:groudon: | C to D / UR
Groudon (the regular one) is a Pokemon I've always had a soft spot for, after seeing thelinearcurve pilot it well as a Stealth Rock lead in ORAS. Ever since then it's continued to bounce around the lower ranks of the VR, as a Pokemon with enough defensive utility to justify being a lead but one that many people don't find justifiable. With the start of SwSh coming, it was a hotly debated topic on whether to include this Pokemon on the ranking. Eventually we decided that its Dynamax utility (which I still believe is underrated and underutilised) was enough to include ranking it this time around. That being said, since Week 1 of NatDex, who has used this Pokemon? It can't function well as a hyper offense lead due to being outclassed by other common leads (see Deoxys-S and Smeargle), it can't function well as a Dynamax target due to other more prevalent ones wallbreaking better (see Yveltal, Xerneas, and Kyogre). I see very little use for this Pokemon in the current metagame. I even tried to make it work as a sun-setter, which might see use come our reversion to Galar Dex, but for now it's just not worth it.

:omastar: | D to UR
"Chloe, you nutcase, what are you doing? Why are you pushing for the demotion of your own previous nomination?" Well, voice inside my head, I've come to a realisation that truthfully virtually any offensive Dynamax special Water-type Pokemon breaks common defensive cores with ease. Omastar, Manaphy, Gigantamax Inteleon, Ash Greninja, and so on and so forth are all examples of Pokemon that can theoretically break through common defensive cores. Omastar is probably significantly better than the rest of these, but even then it faces substantial competition from Dynamax Kyogre, and then additionally just Xerneas and Yveltal which wallbreak fine enough already. It's viable and you can definitely build around it. but most of the time, saying why bother and running Kyogre or Yveltal instead would be the wise move. I'll continue to run it, I just think it's not worth it. In terms of Dynamax targets I see as justifiable: Yveltal, Xerneas and Kyogre clearly. Kartana and Thundurus-T also have a sufficient niche in my eyes. Otherwise, I don't believe any other Pokemon ranked solely on the reason of Dynamax should keep its spot. That being said it's incredibly fun to use other Dynamax targets so please try more and experiment instead of running the same cookie cutter garbage.

:skarmory: | D to UR
While being a sufficient hazard setter and phazer, this Pokemon very rarely sees any usage and for good reason. Why would I run this? If I wanted to set Spikes, I'd run Ferrothorn or Deoxys-S or even Cloyster. It doesn't wall enough in the current metagame, and even then it's just outclassed. I really have trouble justifying using this or Corviknight or Celesteela ever. It will always have a special place in my heart but unfortunately I just don't think it deserves its placement on the Viability Ranking in the current metagame.

:zacian: | D to UR
I think on paper this thing looks kinda cool. You can run Groundium Z Dig and call it a day. Just don't bother. Zacian-C virtually outclasses and the added niche regular has over its older sister is not enough to justify ever running. It's not worth it. I'd be willing to hear viable counter arguments to stopping this thing sitting here on the VR, but I just can't see it happening. Maybe if someone used it in a tournament game successfully that I didn't know about? No one ever wants to run regular Zacian, it just sucks.

Other Nominations
I'll be ignoring WolfishOne's initial post, following the last shift as it relied on the assumption that the Dynamax Hidden Power/Judgment nerf would be happening, which we've since realised it's not.

:Rayquaza-Mega: A+ -> S
Imo a top 3 (arguably 2) consistent mon in the tier, this mon is probably the single most reliable way to make progress, often being even more effective at that than zacian-c. Ray + Zac was easily one of the most consistent cores across all of agpl and for good reason: both pretty much dont have counters and both are REALLY good at either forcing a kill, forcing a dynamax, or both, setting up for the other to go to town. Offensively, Ray has the versatility to make the opponent respect LO mixed, LO DD, and banded attacks, while defensively, it's one of the best checks to the ORAS legendaries and is capable of eating hits from just about every defensive mon in the meta and 2hkoing or ohkoing back. In a dmax centric meta (look at xern in S- and yvel in S), being able to force defensive dmax or kills without dmaxing yourself often sways games in the ray user's favor.
I agree with a promotion for Mega Rayquaza, its shown over time that even in National Dex AG it is such an offensive presence. I still think that for its potency, the Swords Dance set doesn't get enough credit. In a metagame where it barely misses the OHKO at +1, and where the majority of the pool of usable mons is slow. I agree with this nomination overall and have no substantial complaints. Agree

:Ho-oh: A+ -> S-
Something I realized was that you can be facing a team where all 6 mons have counterplay for Ho-oh, the rocker beats Ho-oh, and somehow Ho-oh will still be useful. It's really just regen being an incredible ability - having a Ho-oh in the back (that can also potentially dmax) gives rise to a far greater range of plays for the Ho-oh user both that the user can draw from and that the opponent must respect. Its utility is insane, letting you fit fog and phasing on every team. Ho-oh + NDM was such a common and effective defensive core this agpl that it feels a little weird seeing Ho-oh in a tier below DM.
I was initially very unsure about this, but this literally has 50% usage in tournaments. It's something I chuck onto almost every team without thinking. It's such an effective glue Pokemon that makes matchup versus against virtually everything so much better. There was discussion about this losing its prominence a month or two ago but I believe we're at a point where it would be outlandish not to even consider a promotion for Ho-Oh. I'm supportive of it. Agree

:Arceus-Water: A- -> A (but actually A+) (Water)
| 6 | Arceus-Water | 39 | 28.26% | 64.10% |
To be clear, the main set I'm talking about is the CM set (CM + surf+recover +ice beam/refresh/earth power), but surf/tox/filler/recover is also worth a mention. Erupdon and regular ogre came onto everyone's radar in agpl and this set is one of the best at stopping them. It's also just an incredible defensive mon and a wincon in general. Extremely consistent, very easy to fit onto teams (6th in usage!), reliable dmax wincon that also does work w/o dmax, idk what else youd want (In my opinion it's more consistently good than etern and even zyg).
This is a nomination I definitely disagree with however. While I find its Calm Mind sets to be quite good and defensive sets are as good as they've ever been, it's not good enough to jump to A in my honest opinion. Even comparing this to Eternatus and Zygarde-C feels wrong. It isn't as splashable (haha) or as easy to justify in my eyes as Eternatus or Ditto, I'd consider Water Arceus having such high usage abnormal and unrepresentative of its viability. I wouldn't feel comfortable having this in A or even higher like you suggested. Disagree

:Lunala: B -> A-
Set Ive been liking is Roost/Twave/Moongeist/Defog. Being a fogger that forces out ndm/defensive don is nice, and the luxury of having a pretty reliable ray/noncrunch zac switchin is invaluable. Also the best MMY check. Just a rly nice alternative or even supplement to ndm.
This just isn't good enough, it really isn't worth running the majority of the time, might as well run Defog support Arceus-Ground if you want removal that forces out Primal Groudon and Necrozma-DM. Being able to check Mega Mewtwo Y is nice but I wouldn't count it as substantial enough to justify moving it up a rank. B+ maybe I could see, but A- is way too high for Lunala, even in the current metagame. A metagame where Arceus-Dark has risen in usage substantially since this Pokemon moved down. Disagree

:Arceus-Grass: UR -> B
(Arc grass) the sd set is unironically really good, might even be better than ground- try it out!! Works the same as groundy but better vs some grounds/waters and smashes most cheese.
B is way too high for a Pokemon that for the most part is outclassed by Swords Dance Arceus-Ground, misses out on hitting many relevant threats depending on what coverage it opts to run. I think you can justify using it, but it really doesn't stand out as something worth ranking based on this reasoning in tandem with the lack of successful usage I've seen. I think this is in general an underexplored Arceus forme, but that being said Swords Dance sets don't really have enough going for them, in my eyes, to see ranking. Disagree

:Marshadow: B- to B
Scarfs great at trading vs broken setup, and one of the best speed control ur gonna get in ag. Also got buffed w DLC because now banded poltergeist 2hkoing all its former checks is a thing
I like the idea of Marshadow moving up, I honestly think Choice Band Poltergeist is really solid from my experience using it and I think its previous sets are also not too bad. I'd definitely support this all things considered. Agree

:xerneas: to A. It's still a very potent Dynamax abuser but chansey + ndm is on every team now and Xern in S- is a relic of the past. It also now gets walled by shedinja.
I strongly disagree with this nomination. For one, excluding the point about Shedinja since well, you know. Defensive Necrozma-DM does not wall Xerneas well anymore due to the majority running max HP and Defense, which Max Flare into Dynamax + HP Fire into non-Dynamax removes it or alternatively two Max Flares if it opts not to Max Guard. Chansey is not on every team, in fact it's still quite rare even with its buff in viability and usefulness in the current metagame. You should also consider how well it removes Necrozma-DM for teammates like Zacian-C, Mega Rayquaza. This nomination, while I understand the point it's making, desperately misjudges how well it does against common builds. Xerneas is still incredibly potent, and in my eyes justifies its placement in S-. Disagree

:shedinja: to C. This mon is still kinda bad but due to hidden power / judgement nerf it can wall a few more things like xerneas, cm ogre as well as what it walled before like non dark coverage ZaCian, pogre, arceus that don't carry SE coverage, zygarde etc. Edit : Imo this should be in a theoretical D+ But that doesn't exist so....
I'm pretty sure we're probably in agreement that this shouldn't move up, given the nerf not happening, but its ability to wall non-Hidden Power Flying Kyogre and non-Toxic Zygarde is pretty solid and honestly it's a good Pokemon. I think D suits it well for now, but I'd be willing to sway towards agree in the future maybe. Disagree

:gliscor: to B-. This mon has always just kinda been there. However in AG while it's bulk is decent in OU, it just doesn't cut it in AG. Idt being immune to toxic and walling non eruptio//HP ice p Don and ndm is worthy of B+. The rise of kyogre is also really bad for it. I could see it in B but idk
This completely misses what Gliscor does. I implore you to read previous posts on the matter within the thread. These are the few that come to mind:
That being said I don't necessarily disagree with movement to B (not B-). There are a lot of moving parts within the metagame at the moment and I'm really unsure how to measure how they interact with Gliscor. I'd need to see a lot more of it in the current metagame, I need to do my own testing following this post. I really don't feel strongly enough about it at this current point in time. I'm going to abstain here but I felt like I needed to point out how this just misses the mark.

Thank you to everyone for reading my arguments and I look forward to reading your future posts :)!
 
I definitely agree with Marshadow rising. Banded Poltergeist is a pain to switch into. Arceus Fairy used to be able to come in safely no problems but now it has to run max def in order to avoid the 2HKO and even then with a bit of chip or 2 Stealth Rocks switch ins it gets 2HKOd. Then things that avoid the 2HKO like Primal Groudon Marshadow can just dynamax to take a hit and get the 3HKO. The speed tier and Shadow Sneak is also amazing because you do like 39-46% to Zacian-C so it's great at revenge killing weakened threats. Poltergeist basically made Marshadow more unpredictable than before because it used to be that it functioned mainly as a set up deterrent with Choice Scarf and Sash but now it has the option to just completely go on the offensive.
 
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Pigeons

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Some noms

:rayquaza-mega:
Mega Rayquaza A+ -> S (Below Zacian-C)
Mega Rayquaza has cemented itself as one of if not the most threatening offensive Pokemon in the current metagame. The metagame shift towards slower balances has been hugely beneficial with Life Orb mixed and Choice Band sets emerging as some of the best wallbreakers in the game. Dragon Dance sets are also extremely potent cleaners and are only reliably checked by the occasional max defense Arceus form, Ditto, or most commonly by defensive Dynamaxing. The reason I think MRay should go straight to S alongside Zacian-C is because of its phenomenal synergy with other top offensive Pokemon, both in terms of typing and the ability to pressure shared checks by forcing the use of defensive Dynamax. This was seen frequently throughout AGPL II with MRay + Zacian-C and MRay + Xerneas teams both having strong showings. A shift towards more defensive Arceus forms reflects the large impact MRay has on the metagame, yet despite this trend it continues to be extremely effective and should rise to S as a result.

:yveltal:
Yveltal S -> S- / A+ (below Xerneas / top of A+)
This one is probably going to ruffle a few feathers and I know not every council member will agree with me, but Yveltal no longer stands out as the extremely potent and arguably broken threat it did in the early metagame. In terms of metagame trends, the increased usage of multiple Arceus forms per team has damaged Yveltal the most, since team usually carry at least one Arceus form (Dark, fairy) that Yveltal will struggle to break past even when Dynamaxed. This issue is compounded by the fact that Yveltal suffers from a bit of 4mss in the current metagame, STABs are mandatory which only leaves 2 slots for Taunt, Heat Wave, Knock Off, Rock Slide, or any other techs (on the standard LO set at least). I won't go over all of these in detail but lacking these moves can either result in Yveltal being less useful while not Dynamaxed or lacking the ability to break past common sponges quickly (Chansey, Ho-Oh, Zacian-C being the main ones).

The other issues that make me think Yveltal is no longer deserving of S is its difficulty switching in and poor synergy with other offensive threats. The first issue is pretty clear, Yveltal doesn't want to hard switch into any of the things it pressures due to its weakness to status, SR weakness, and lack of important resistances. Looking at the VR, Yveltal doesn't really switch into anything freely besides...Ghostceus and MGar I guess. With pivoting moves being relatively uncommon in the current metagame (Teleport Chansey is the only one I can think of) that means Yveltal generally has to either get in on a sack or double switch, which incurs a relatively high risk on the part of the Yveltal user (amplified by its weakness to SR). Contrast this with MRay, Zacian-C, and even Xerneas which all have at least a few threats they can switch into risk-free. I don't mean to oversimplify here since obviously the opposing player always has the option to double switch out of these threats, but these 3 in particular stand out as lower risk offensive Pokemon with comparable or greater reward.

Yveltal is still a volatile and scary threat, but in my opinion the metagame is significantly less favourable than it was when Yveltal was ranked at S and I no longer see Yveltal as more potent than Mega Rayquaza, Zacian-C, or even Xerneas. Icemaster did point out that HP Poison Yveltal sets have the potential to make up for some of these shortcomings, but I have not seen that set in action enough to think Yveltal deserves S on that basis. I realize a good portion of this may be affected by my personal dislike of Yveltal (I almost never build with it and opt for other offensive Pokemon instead), but I think there is sufficient evidence that Yveltal is no longer the threat it was and should at the very least be ranked below Zacian-C and MRay.

:necrozma-dusk-mane:
Necrozma-Dusk Mane S- -> S (bottom of S)
I'll keep this nom brief, Dusk Mane is just so insanely splashable it feels unfitting to have it below the top dogs of the metagame. It boasted over 80% usage in AGPL II, and while usage is not everything it certainly speaks to how potent a glue Dusk Mane is. Being a great answer to Zacian-C, soft Xerneas check, and the ability to defensively Dynamax against threats like Mega Rayquaza make Dusk Mane incredibly valuable on most teams. The ubiquity of Dusk Mane and its ability to do work in virtually every matchup make it worthy of S-rank in my opinion.

:arceus:
Arceus-Water A- -> A (top of A)
I will keep my thoughts on this one brief as well but Arceus-Water had a fantastic showing in AGPL II as an extremely threatening and splashable (heh) CM sweeper. PDT's post provided some good starting points, I just want to emphasize that Arceus-Water offers fantastic role compression (soft Kyogre check, Eruption Primal Groudon switchin, status absorber, wincon) with its CM Refresh set alone. Support sets seem great as well though I admittedly have less experience with these. Arceus-Water is easily on par with Eternatus and Ditto and I consider it to be slightly above them in effectiveness, but a rise is definitely due.

:arceus:
Arceus-Dark A- -> A (above Eternatus / below Arceus-Water)
Arceus-Dark also emerged as an extremely potent threat during AGPL II, with its Calm Mind and PerishPool sets proving to be extremely effective balance breakers while also soft checking Yveltal. Not much to say about Arceus-Dark since it falls into a similar category as Arceus-Water: it combines the ability to be extremely threatening with a solid defensive presence. While Zacian-C and Xerneas can switch into and pressure Arceus-Dark it enjoys neutral to winning matchups against most other threats, so I believe a rise to A is appropriate.

:necrozma-ultra:
Necrozma-Ultra A- -> B+ / B
Ultra Necrozma tries to fulfill a similar role to Mega Rayquaza, but to be blunt it is not a very good pick in the current metagame. The rise of Arceus-Dark is a huge issue since it is extremely hard for Ultra Necrozma to break and it also forces 50/50s with the use of Light that Burns the Sky. Physdef Dusk Mane, Ferrothorn, and Lugia's rise are all problematic for Ultra Necrozma as well since it does not easily break through them. Using Ultra Necrozma requires you to either not use Dusk Mane or to use Dawn Wings as a base, neither of which are especially desirable in the current metagame. It can catch some teams unprepared, but Ultra Necrozma is belongs with Pokemon like Lunala that are largely dependent on matchup to be truly effective.

:salamence-mega:
Mega Salamence D -> UR
There is no reason to use this mon. It barely checks anything and spreading paralysis is done better by Glare Zygarde anyways. This has seen 0 relevant usage for good reason.

Also supporting Gliscor to drop, again not for the reasons given in the post but because it just does not fit well in the current metagame (except on hard stall / semistall which is niche to begin with), leaning no on Arceus-Ground rising, no opinion on Marshadow or any of the stuff in C/D since I have no experience with them.
 
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I'll throw a couple of noms in there (nothing as bizarre as shedinja and xern drop/rise)

:ss/arceus-fairy: to A-. I've been finding myself wanting this on more and more of my teams. It's a great yveltal check and can check other scary breakers like mega Ray, choice band marshadow(this is actually pretty cool rn), Darkceus, Ultra Necrozma(or it at least forces it to burn the Z) and this is albeit a rare set, meteor beam eternatus. It's a really great wincon due to absurdly good typing and speed and strong coverage option in earth power and heck I even like cm refresh recover. Whirsong is also a very nice trapper and can eliminate foolish pokemon that try to keep it in check like non whirlwind ho-oh and pdon.

:ss/eternatus: to A+. The only thing it dislikes in this meta atm is the prominence of cm arceus and MMY gaining popularity. It can utterly maul fairyceus with Sludge bomb, 2hko our Premier defensive glue necrozma dusk mane, 2hko most supportceus after a little chip. Then we have meteor beam. This seems like a meme set but believe me it is not. You can punish ho-oh severely, 1v1 non confide chansey, force out non ice beam waterceus and just be a bitch to deal with in general. Defensive sets are solid too with T Killer being able to set toxic spikes vs the majority of the foggers in the tier due to pressure and 100‰ accurate pressure. Luring and eliminating ZaCian is also rlly nice.

Other noms I agree with.

:ss/marshadow: to B. OK I know I was mouthing this off earlier but I tried and it's actually pretty solid. Most checks can get 2hkod after chip from band and scarf is decent too to at least sack marshadow when it's no longer needed. It's still got a lot of problems like being slower then scary pokemon like gengar and ZaCian but overall it's definitely more useful than Zekrom and non mega diancie.

:ss/arceus-water: to A. This can check the rising star kyogre as well as being a solid check to pdon, zygarde and soft checking ZaCian.

:ss/necrozma-dusk-mane: to S. Do I need to go into depth?

:ss/rayquaza-mega: to S-. S seemed a bit drastic since it's still got issues like swords dance getting outpaced by a lot of stuff and dragon dance being checked by our best physical wall zygarde. It's still one of the most powerful pokemon in the tier especially with mixed LO sets being able to lure and murder all usual checks and being nigh impossible to keep in check.

Noms I disagree with

:ss/salamence-mega: to UR. Heck no. It's a very nice status absorber and defogger that also has a decent offensive presence
 
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I guess I´ll post my opinion on some of these noms



Mega Salamence: This meta is really not kind to it. It´s a worse Mega Ray in almost every way. It hates Arceus Ground´s Ice Beam, Arceus Fairy and Dusk Mane. Eruption from Groudon does a ton to it too. Defensive Dynamax also sucks for it too. You have to use Double Edge if you want to come close to Mega Ray in power output but even then Mega Ray still hits harder and the recoil damage sucks. Only reason to use this is for fun because it can still be a threatening sweeper with the right support and teammates. Bulky set up variants are also pretty cool because it's easier to get more than one DD and stomps Ditto because of Frustation. Overall I'm undecided as to whether it should be ranked or not.


Mega Rayquaza: Was on the S bandwagon before it was cool. This thing just doesn't have reliable counterplay. Dynamax can somewhat stall Rayquaza for a little bit but a well played Ray can just predict the Dynamax and come back in later. I've done it plenty of times and I almost feel bad about it because this thing forces dynamax so often. DD variants are not checked by Zygarde or Giratina if you run mixed DD. You can even run SD and DD on the same set. This thing can viably run so many options it's not even funny. I would put it in the same rank as Zacian C. Also faced Webs + SD Ray once and it gave me PTSD.


Yveltal: Agree that it should drop for the reasons stated in the above posts. It's still a really threatening Pokemon that every team should prepare for however. Don't really have much to add but I feel it´s a little too reliant on dynamax for my tastes. Hard to get it in and you give up the ability to defensive dynamax as well.


Necrozma DM: Agree I guess.


Arceus Dark/Fairy/Water: I agree for the reasons already stated, Arceus is so good that people often run 2 or even 3 of them on a team. Arceus is what keeps this tier playable.
 

Geysers

greysers
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I guess I´ll post my opinion on some of these noms



Mega Salamence: This meta is really not kind to it. It´s a worse Mega Ray in almost every way. It hates Arceus Ground´s Ice Beam, Arceus Fairy and Dusk Mane. Eruption from Groudon does a ton to it too. Defensive Dynamax also sucks for it too. You have to use Double Edge if you want to come close to Mega Ray in power output but even then Mega Ray still hits harder and the recoil damage sucks. Only reason to use this is for fun because it can still be a threatening sweeper with the right support and teammates. Bulky set up variants are also pretty cool because it's easier to get more than one DD and stomps Ditto because of Frustation. Overall I'm undecided as to whether it should be ranked or not.
I don't think you understand what megamence does in the meta. It serves as a fat defogger with status cleansing and paralysis spreading that can switch freely into common defensive staples such as Ho-Oh, Necrozma-DM, and defensive Pdon, then either fog on them or pressure them out with paralysis, and threaten switchins with paralysis from Body Slam. I don't think that megamence is ranked for its setup sets, which are frankly awful, but more for its defensive sets. I'm very strongly against mence's nomination to UR, since I think that it has a very nice niche where it can provide useful team support, while fitting on specific build types. I think D is a perfect spot for Mence in the current meta.
 
I guess I´ll post my opinion on some of these noms



Mega Salamence: This meta is really not kind to it. It´s a worse Mega Ray in almost every way. It hates Arceus Ground´s Ice Beam, Arceus Fairy and Dusk Mane. Eruption from Groudon does a ton to it too. Defensive Dynamax also sucks for it too. You have to use Double Edge if you want to come close to Mega Ray in power output but even then Mega Ray still hits harder and the recoil damage sucks. Only reason to use this is for fun because it can still be a threatening sweeper with the right support and teammates. Bulky set up variants are also pretty cool because it's easier to get more than one DD and stomps Ditto because of Frustation. Overall I'm undecided as to whether it should be ranked.


Mega Rayquaza: Was on the S bandwagon before it was cool. This thing just doesn't have reliable counterplay. Dynamax can somewhat stall Rayquaza for a little bit but a well played Ray can just predict the Dynamax and come back in later. I've done it plenty of times and I almost feel bad about it because this thing forces dynamax so often. DD variants are not checked by Zygarde or Giratina if you run mixed DD. You can even run SD and DD on the same set. This thing can viably run so many options it's not even funny. I would put it in the same rank as Zacian C. Also faced Webs + SD Ray once and it gave me PTSD.


Yveltal: Agree that it should drop for the reasons stated in the above posts. It's still a really threatening Pokemon that every team should prepare for however. Don't really have much to add but I feel it´s a little too reliant on dynamax for my tastes. Hard to get it in and you give up the ability to defensive dynamax as well.


Necrozma DM: Agree I guess.


Arceus Dark/Fairy/Water: I agree for the reasons already stated, Arceus is so good that people often run 2 or even 3 of them on a team. Arceus is what keeps this tier playable.
Just a few things I disagree with

:salamence-mega:. Geysers already covered this so I'll avoid this.

:rayquaza-mega:. While S is a justifiable rise, it feels drastic and mixed dd is just not good. Losing extreme speed just means you lose quite a lot of utility. Double Dance likewise also is forced to give up extreme speed.
 
Just a few things I disagree with

:salamence-mega:. Geysers already covered this so I'll avoid this.

:rayquaza-mega:. While S is a justifiable rise, it feels drastic and mixed dd is just not good. Losing extreme speed just means you lose quite a lot of utility. Double Dance likewise also is forced to give up extreme speed.
I think it really depends on your team composition and how well your team deals with certain threats. If your team doesn't have the best answers to Yveltal and Xerneas and your way of dealing with them is to defensive Dynamax yourself to stall their dynamax turns than Extremespeed is preferred. I can't count how many times Extremespeed saved me from getting swept by a low health Xerneas or Yveltal or Mega Ray. It's very useful in that regard. However if your team struggles with more bulkier teams using Zygarde and Giratina then mixed DD is a viable option and I disagree that it's not good. Double Dance makes it so that you do well both against HO and Stall. I´ll admit I've found myself missing Extremespeed when using these sets and have lost the occasional match only because I didn't have Extremespeed to pick off something but Ray is not meant to be a perfect Pokemon just like Zacian C and Yveltal are not perfect by any means. Zacian C has safe switch ins like Necrozma DM and Arceus Ground and Yveltal has answers as well.

After testing Yveltal some more I don't think it should drop anymore. I mean it already dropped from S+ so dropping it again just seems a bit much for the time being. Complete physical variants IMO are just as good as special and it does well against stall because Foul Play upgrades to 172 BP during Dynamax. I was using Foul Play, Sucker Punch, Fly and Heat Wave and I never once thought ¨I miss fully special¨ Sucker Punch priority is also nice to have after Dynamax. This set does wonders against Chansey and Ho-Oh and even Tyranitar takes a ton from physical Max Darkness. It's really hard to stop Yveltal from punching holes in a team especially with a well timed Dynamax. Keep it in S.

Geysers Thanks I guess I wasn't too aware about that set. I mean I've faced that Defog set before but I didn't know it was the reason it was ranked. I thought it was the combination of all it's sets. The reason I talked about it was because I've used Mega Salamence a good amount of times. I disagree that the set up sets are awful. They're not great but their not awful. Aside from Dynamax nothing's really changed from gen 7 Ubers. Some players were even calling for a ban from Ubers so to go from that to awful is a bit much. It's different from Rayquaza because it has Intimidate and Roost for longevity while Mega Ray is more of a glass cannon. Mega Ray mostly outclasses it anyway but that's why it's in D rank. I haven't used the Defog set but that honestly sounds like an unreliable way to spread paralysis specially because you can use the move 3 times and still get nothing. Being weak to rocks is another thing that I'd rather use something like Ho-Oh or Arceus for Defog support.
 

Geysers

greysers
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Hey guys, I've got a few noms + some thoughts today.

:ss/groudon:: C --> B-
Groudon @ Life Orb
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Precipice Blades
- Aerial Ace
- Stone Edge

Groudon is an insanely threatening Dynamax sweeper using SD + Aerial Ace. After one boost, it OHKOes almost any possible check that doesn't Dynamax, notably OHKOing defensive Zygarde and Arceus-Water after rocks without even needing to use its Dyna. It generates numerous setup turns by forcing out common defensive mons such as Necrozma-DM and Ho-Oh, and then breaking through most potential switchins while ganing speed to sweep. As the below calcs show, very few conventional PDon answers stand a chance against a boosted Groudon, with the only one that can reliably take a hit being max def Giratina. Groudon's phenomenal offensive presence allows it to put in incredible amounts of work against balance teams. Below are a few replays showcasing SD Groudon in action.
Arceus-Water
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Water: 398-469 (89.6 - 105.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Water: 398-469 (89.6 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Max Quake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Water: 464-547 (104.5 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Zygarde
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Max Quake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 456-538 (108.5 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 391-461 (93 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 391-461 (93 - 109.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Giratina
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 395-465 (78.5 - 92.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Max Quake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 460-542 (91.4 - 107.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Max Quake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 460-542 (91.4 - 107.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Lugia
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Max Rockfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 269-317 (64.6 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
Mega Ray
252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Groudon: 266-316 (39 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Max Airstream vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 378-446 (107.6 - 127%) -- guaranteed OHKO
NDM
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 567-669 (142.4 - 168%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yveltal
252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Max Rockfall vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Dynamax Yveltal: 523-616 (66.5 - 78.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Yveltal: 720-850 (91.6 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Max Rockfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Yveltal: 938-1105 (119.3 - 140.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 361-426 (91.8 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Yveltal Max Airstream vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dynamax Groudon: 333-394 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1175854567-19cb4k4wpm01b5cfxlhozmmanzkq32ypw - in which SD don completely cleans the opposing team after getting a single setup turn
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1184596663 - in which SD Don rips a huge hole in the opponent's team but I lose because it misses pblades ;-;
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1179319526-sf6bc81ja6g8x5ruc9e342igpj3hoc2pw - in which I lose to a weird SD don set that just kinda shits on my Giratina.

:ss/lucario-mega:: UR --> D
Lucario-Mega @ Lucarionite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Meteor Mash
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge

Mega Lucario is an incredibly powerful balance breaker that can find setup turns against Arceus-Dark and Necrozma-DM, and then proceed to rip massive holes in teams before it's stopped by something faster. I got this set from pichus who was using it on webs, but it works pretty well on balance too. Justified is chosen to let it switch into Judgment from Arceus-Dark or Knock Off from Necrozma-DM and use that for a further boost. Stone Edge prevents Ho-Oh from checking it, by netting a clean OHKO unboosted. Mega Lucario is, however, held back by the fact that it can be very hard to get in safely, and its mediocre speed which leaves it vulernable to revenge-killing.
252+ Atk Lucario-Mega Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 420-496 (100.9 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 378-446 (94.9 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Water: 398-470 (89.6 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon-Primal: 320-378 (79.2 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 392-462 (93.3 - 110%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 596-704 (134.5 - 158.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Arceus-Dark: 468-552 (105.4 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Groudon-Primal: 460-542 (134.8 - 158.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Shadow Shield Lunala: 256-302 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Lucario-Mega Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 156-184 (37.5 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


Thoughts
:rayquaza-mega: --> S hard agree, this thing is so good rn
:yveltal: --> S- agree, Yveltal really hates how good support arcs have gotten lately.
:necrozma-ultra: --> B+ Agree, I find it really hard to fit this on teams given that dusk mane almost always has to be defensive.
:arceus-dark:(dark) --> A agree
:arceus-water:(water) --> A agree, this thing is really splashable rn
:necrozma-dusk-mane: --> S absolutely, this thing is nigh-mandatory on any team
:diancie: --> C agree, this thing is increasingly hard to fit on teams.
:omastar: --> UR haha yeah this was never good
:skarmory: --> UR this thing is sooo hard to fit
:arceus-electric:(electric) --> UR nah, cm sets are really threatening and a pain to deal with since Zacian struggles to hit it.

There were more noms but I don't feel really strongly about any of them. Have a nice day.
E: added another mluc replay
 
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Pigeons

pidge pidge
is a Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
VR Update

Rises
  • :necrozma-dusk-mane: S- to S (bottom of S): Necrozma Dusk Mane is incredibly splashable and able to put in work against nearly any playstyle. The fact that it is nearly mandatory on teams combined with great utility options sets it apart from the Pokemon in S-.
  • :rayquaza-mega: A+ to S (below Zacian-Crowned): Mega Rayquaza has risen to dominance as one of the most threatening offensive Pokemon in the metagame. The continued shift towards bulky offense and balance is also a huge boon as Mega Rayquaza excels in such matchups.
  • :arceus:(Dark) A- to A (below Eternatus): Similarly to Mega Rayquaza, the metagame's continued shift towards bulky offense and balance has greatly benefitted Arceus-Dark. It fits well on such teams as a soft Yveltal check, but also manages to be extremely threatening with its Calm Mind + Refresh and Perish Song + Whirlpool sets.
  • :arceus:(Water) A- to A (top of A): Arceus-Water has risen in usage as a solid all-around Arceus form with few weaknesses. It remains one of the best checks to Eruption Primal Groudon and can act as a similarly threatening win condition to Arceus-Dark with Calm Mind and Perish Song + Whirlpool sets.

Drops
  • :yveltal: S to S- (above Xerneas): Yveltal's fall from dominance has only continued as usage of Arceus-Dark has spiked recently. While still a volatile and powerful threat, the metagame has grown less friendly to Yveltal and it no longer stands far above other offensive Pokemon as it once did.
  • :necrozma-ultra: A- to B: While it was always a relatively niche pick, the uptick in Arceus-Dark usage and overall metagame trends have made using Ultra Necrozma a real challenge. Using it also comes with the opportunity cost of not using Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, which is hard to justify in the current metagame.
  • :gliscor: B+ to B: Gliscor's niche as a Defog user has simply become less valuable in a metagame that is less dictated by hazard wars. While it is appreciated on hard stall and teams that need strong hazard control, the metagame has moved on and it struggles to deal with newer balance builds.
  • :diancie: B- to C: Diancie was always a niche countermeasure to Yveltal, but with the bird not being as dominant as it once was Diancie is no longer as needed as a result.
  • :groudon: C to D: Groudon is a very niche Dynamax attacker that is often hard to justify in place of another Dynamax abuser on teams. While it still has the ability to threaten unprepared teams,
  • :omastar: D to UR: Omastar's niche as a water-type Dynamax abusing sweeper has been taken over by Arceus-Water, which has more defensive utility and can actually fit onto most teams.
  • :salamence-mega: D to UR: Mega Salamence has next to no niche in the metagame, using your mega slot on a passable Defogger is not something you should be doing. Use a Defog Arceus or Ho-Oh instead and use your mega slot on something actually good.
  • :skarmory: D to UR: Skarmory is an odd case, it looks fine on paper but in reality is outclassed by Ferrothorn as a Spikes setter and fails to do much notable defensively.
  • :thundurus-therian: D to UR: Another niche Dynamax sweeper, Thundurus-T's niche of an Imposter-proof Dynamax sweeper is appealing on paper but teams are almost always better off using another Dynamax abuser with alternative means of dealing with Imposter.
  • :zacian: D to UR: Think of a Zacian set, the best one you can possibly imagine. Now realize that Zacian-C does it better and stop using base Zacian.

Rejected Nominations
  • :xerneas: S- to A: Xerneas is still incredibly threatening as a Dynamax sweeper
  • :ho-oh: A+ to S-: Ho-Oh is without a doubt the best pivot in the metagame, but not much has changed to increase its viability and it does not appreciate the increase in Arceus-Water and Mega Rayquaza usage, as well as the metagame generally being more prepared for status.
  • :ferrothorn: A- to B+: Ferrothorn is by far the best Spikes setter in the metagame and a soft check to Arceus-Water and Kyogre is often valuable as well. While Ho-Oh is always annoying for Ferrothorn it can work around this by running Toxic and with team support.
  • :lunala: B to A-: Lunala does not check many Pokemon reliably with its defensive set, offensively it hates the prevalence of Arceus-Dark and Ho-Oh which can pivot into it fairly safely.
  • :marshadow: B- to B: The council was split 50/50 on this nom, but the general consensus was we wanted to see it in action more before giving it the bump to B.
  • :shedinja: D to C: Shedinja is very niche and the metagame has not gotten any friendlier to stall than it was before. It appreciates that Xerneas more frequently drops HP Fire now, but still remains a fringe pick.
  • :arceus:(Electric) D to UR: This nomination was made under the assumption that Judgment's mechanics would be changing, which they did not. Arceus-Electric is still a fine fringe pick as it threatens many of the balance cores at the moment and has switchin opportunities.
  • :arceus:(Flying) D to UR: See Arceus-Electric, Arceus-Flying is still a passable CM sweeper that can snowball with Max Airstream.
  • :arceus:(Poison) D to UR: Arceus-Poison is still an effective check to Xerneas, but it remains niche beyond that.
  • :arceus:(Grass) UR to B: Similarly to Marshadow, this needs to be seen in action more before it gets ranked here. While it has a niche in theory, it also struggles with many of the common Pokemon in the metagame such as Dusk Mane, Mega Rayquaza, and Ho-Oh.

Each council member's votes for this VR slate can be found here.
 
Felt like dropping a couple of noms I've used and have seen discussion about.

B- to B. This thing has some decent sets. Band Polter can 2HKO most things after chip. Spec Thief is still viable too for the occasional Baton Pass team, as well as being helpful for setup sweepers. Drain Punch and CC are nice options. It has a decent options with Tech Rock Tomb and the punches hitting some checks. It has some speed problems but Tech Shadow Sneak helps a bit. Definitely sees more use than Zek or Diancie

A to A+. Another mon with pretty good options. Dynamax cannon is always nice. Sludge hits Xer and cause' of its typing fairy is only neutral on it. Meteor Beam seems kinda memey but legitimately sweeps. It gets recover too which is great. Its a good Tspikes user as well. I've even seen a couple of Specs EternaBeams and its scary. Scarf options with max speed counter ditto as well. However It struggles to hit Zacian-C .
 
Felt like dropping a couple of noms I've used and have seen discussion about.

B- to B. This thing has some decent sets. Band Polter can 2HKO most things after chip. Spec Thief is still viable too for the occasional Baton Pass team, as well as being helpful for setup sweepers. Drain Punch and CC are nice options. It has a decent options with Tech Rock Tomb and the punches hitting some checks. It has some speed problems but Tech Shadow Sneak helps a bit. Definitely sees more use than Zek or Diancie

A to A+. Another mon with pretty good options. Dynamax cannon is always nice. Sludge hits Xer and cause' of its typing fairy is only neutral on it. Meteor Beam seems kinda memey but legitimately sweeps. It gets recover too which is great. Its a good Tspikes user as well. I've even seen a couple of Specs EternaBeams and its scary. Scarf options with max speed counter ditto as well. However It struggles to hit Zacian-C .
Ok. So I know I'm a noob, but still I feel like there are some things I need to point out here that are wrong. CC is not just a nice option. It defined marsh due to it being so good against ekiller. Also, it does not have "speed problems". The problem I think it has is power, which is why you put band on it in the first place. Also, scarf is just meme on etern. saying it checks ray after a dd is just saying your not competent enough to stop it from getting a dd. and also flamethrower for zac? and how do you not mention LO for Etern?
 
Ok. So I know I'm a noob, but still I feel like there are some things I need to point out here that are wrong. CC is not just a nice option. It defined marsh due to it being so good against ekiller. Also, it does not have "speed problems". The problem I think it has is power, which is why you put band on it in the first place. Also, scarf is just meme on etern. saying it checks ray after a dd is just saying your not competent enough to stop it from getting a dd. and also flamethrower for zac? and how do you not mention LO for Etern?
I never said anything about it hitting ray after a dd. I haven't used him a bunch so I've never used flame but Zacian gets Psychic Fangs which hurts a lot. i use the meteor beam set but I've never tried LO, I might try that sounds fun
 

Geysers

greysers
is a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Zacian gets Psychic Fangs which hurts a lot. i use the meteor beam set but I've never tried LO, I might try that sounds fun
This quote just about sums everything up. IMO this illustrates a lack of metagame knowledge which means that your nomination is less likely to be taken seriously. Psychic Fangs should NEVER be used on Zacian, because it’s completely useless. Behemoth Blade hits Etern for more than enough damage, and Wild Charge nails Toxapex. Etern’s primary set is Life Orb, and if you haven’t used that, you can’t really understand how threatening it is. I’d recommend lurking for a while and trying to get involved in roomtours / forum tours in order to get a better grasp on the meta.
Drain Punch and CC are nice options. It has a decent options with Tech Rock Tomb and the punches hitting some checks. It has some speed problems but Tech Shadow Sneak helps a bit. Definitely sees more use than Zek or Diancie
Drain Punch should NEVER be used on Marshadow. It’s way too frail to appreciate the recovery at all, and drain punch misses out on a lot of important KOs that Close Combat gets. Rock Tomb likewise really shouldn’t be used and is really hard to fit on sets, especially given that Poltergeist hits Ho-Oh really hard. Lastly, saying that Marshadow is better than Zekrom or Diancie because it‘s used more is just flat-out wrong. Marshadow gets more use on ladder because ladder players spam sash marshadow everywhere. Sash Marshadow is a completely unusable set that shouldn’t see any usage because it hits like a wet noodle and is totally invalidated by hazards. Regardless, ladder players continue to spam it. If we ranked mons based off of their ladder usage, Ash-Greninja would be A-rank, which is obviously a terrible idea.
I've even seen a couple of Specs EternaBeams and its scary. Scarf options with max speed counter ditto as well. However It struggles to hit Zacian-C.
This is completely wrong lol. Specs Eternatus is an unset, and using Eternabeam is asking to be set-up on or revenge killed, something which really hampers specs etern’s viability. Scarf Etern doesn’t “counter” ditto in any way shape or form. Sure, it can revenge kill some thing, but it hits like a wet noodle and can be taken advantage of super easily because it can’t dynamax to break choice lock. For instance, stuff like Mega Ray can use it as setup fodder if it’s locked into flamethrower, or Zacian-C and setup on it if it’s locked into Dynamax Cannon or Sludge Bomb.

In order that this isn’t just explaining why those are bad noms, I‘d like to make a nom.
:vivillon: —> D / UR
Vivillon is pretty much completely outclassed by smashtrip smeargle, and is insanely hard to fit on teams. Webs is pretty shaky in the current meta, and Viv’s viability suffers as a result. Additionally, it tends to be hard to slot on teams when more reliable sweepers such as Zekrom, Arceus-Ghost, CM+ LO Ogre, and Xerneas are also available. Lastly, Viv really hates that max moves can set misty / electric terrain, which can completely cripple it for several turns and allow it to be taken advantage of.

E: fixed typo
 
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I find this nomination interesting as nothing said in the post was that accurate, but I really do love using Eternatus. The Life Orb set has an amazing match-up against some teams, thanks to its great coverage (Dragon,Poison,Fire) and its good bulk with recover allowing it to come in on many mons. I think the best trait of Eternatus however is Pressure. Necrozma-Dusk-Mane and Ho-oh can not just click their 8pp stabs for free, since they always risk running out of attack pp which then causes them to lose their ability to beat certain mons. It is also capable of pp stalling moves such as Toxic and most importantly Hazards/Defog. Being able to set up Tspikes is amazing and Dragon Tail sets are cool to beat Perish Trap Arc, while forcing mons in to take Tspike poisoning. Cosmic power is a nice tool to help it pp stall attacks that would otherwise beat it.I have not even mentioned Meteor Beam, while very niche it can definitely fine its use. This being said I am not sure if it is A+ worthy. I would definitely consider it, but I definately have a bias towards mons like this. For now A imo. I would mention how its a great Z move user, but thats really only because it has the flaw of not being able to Dmax.

Eternatus @ Firium Z
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 112 Def / 80 SpA / 40 SpD / 28 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Flamethrower
- Toxic Spikes
- Recover

Set I theorized, but never tested

Eternatus @ Black Sludge/Rockium Z
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 16 SpA / 180 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Substitute
- Meteor Beam
- Flamethrower/Dragon Pulse

8 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 64 Def Eternatus: 102-120 (21.1 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

I was trying to use Sub DD Kyurem, but I could never fit mons with it that allowed me to properly cover the metagame, so I came upon this. It still has many issues however.

:vivillon: —> D / UR
I agree with this completely, it is hard to set up due to the abundance of offensive threats such as Yveltal, Zacian, Mray, Zacian etc. Beyond that once it is in safely it has a terrible time trying to sweep thanks to the rise of Perish Trap Arceus and Ho-ohs prominence in the metagame (whirlwinding it out). Other issues Viv has includes Fairy/Electric max moves and competition from other mons capable of sweeping; mentioned in the post above. UR


:Magearna: —> C

Magearna has several amazing qualities, but does not have the longevity to preform any of them amazingly. I think this is completely fine for more offensive teams who enjoy the role compression of an Yveltal/Xern/CM Arceus, Check/Counter. Magearna also has the amazing ability to stop cheese, mainly Moody/Baton Pass. This is invaluable on the ladder and while cheese is not very common in tour it is still used https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1192583472... Anyways I believe the amazing role compression Magearna provides for offense is worth bumping it up to C rank, it does nothing amazingly, but it does so much and is not completely outclassed by something like Ditto. The main reason I nominated this is because I think it is much better than the mons in C rank.

I think the council should look at all of C/D rank, but that is just my opinion.
 
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Fardin

formerly skooma
the lower ranks seem a bit messy so i want to nom some things:

Arceus Poison C > B/B-: this mon was really slept on this generation but it managed to get some heat going the past couple months. You get what most arceuses offer with the bulk and speed and a ton of utility moves. imo it functions a really similar role as it did in gen 7 with walling xern and just being a great overall support mon with the help of wisp + speed messing up many potential mons who can set up on it like zyg, zac and even mray. thanks to poison type moves boosting spa in dyna, its also a great cm user without needing to invest in spa so it can still do its defensive roles. it has been useful many times during agpl for me personally. (also toxic + tspikes resistance is goat)

Quagsire D > C: this mon is arguably the most deserving of C rank atm. its main usage will probably be in stall but i know it can work in balances as well if built right. I think everyone knows what it does with walling zac, but what most don't really get is that quag is the ultimate clutch mon with haze. let alone walling zac, sd arcs, dm and etc, with haze, its just an excellent mon to shut down annoying detail dd zyg stuff with support, has enough bulk to haze vs xern after dyna, which at least doesnt give xern a free set up turn if it comes in on it and many more.

Regural Dia C > Unranked: Honestly don't know why its ranked. if the only reason its ranked is because mega dia sometimes like the bulk more than mbounce, that's a props to mega dia, not for regural dia. if there is regural dia set without Diancite, it would make sense to rank this at C, but i don't personally see any apart from a really small niche which isn't good enough to have its own rank in AG with mega dia already at B-.

Magearna D > C: this mon just does a lot for it to not be at C. many say roar or whirl invalidates it, but by saying that, u just ignore the defensive utility it brings to teams by being a good xern check + some arceus forms, and at least annoy yve with occa berry, all while having access to SG + baton pass which in most games just straight up forces ur opponent to bring in hooh, where u can just simply take advantage of it and baton pass into ray or w.e instead as it comes in expecting SG. there are many ways to make this mon work and its 100 slept on with heart swap/SG + baton pass + the def utility it brings in. also imo looking at the current sample update, mage has a really really good mu vs them with a okay support.

Zekrom B- > D: i don't think i played ag when this mon was B- worthy, but as the current meta stands right now, i don't think anyone would disagree when i say its niche has decreased a lot. I can still see it be useful due to its bulk and unique typing along with defog or maybe occasional DD set, but it doesnt deserve anything more than D

Vivillon C > D: with the rise of mray that brings in extra priority and spdef arcs that started carrying perish song, this mon isn't nearly as consistent especially in ho, which is the only playstyle it can be good at. might be able to get some really good mu vs a small amount of mu, but that reason is why it should be ranked at all. D is fair imo.

Grimmsnarl C > D: Thimo and a few others had a couple cool squads with this, but eventually people started opting for deo and etc. there are still a couple cool squads that use it over deo, but i can count them with one hand, and that's including the past 3-4 months. Still has its niche, but its nowhere near as good as it used to be.

Arceus-Flying D > Unranked: only reason this was good in usum was the lack of relevant type weakness along with marsh, but that's really not that important anymore. I don't see any viable team running this mon at all over the rest of the arc types, especially in natdex where running multiple arcs (more than 2) gets pretty hard.

Also i just had to get this in

Kyogre A- > A: imo just one of those mons that was kinda ignored the last update but as the meta stands rn, there is no way this mon belongs in the same rank as poger, and poger deserves A- ;;;;;
Just shits on a fuck ton of teams that people consider the "current meta" ;;;;;
this mon is on the rise.
 

Geysers

greysers
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Zekrom B- > D: i don't think i played ag when this mon was B- worthy, but as the current meta stands right now, i don't think anyone would disagree when i say its niche has decreased a lot. I can still see it be useful due to its bulk and unique typing along with defog or maybe occasional DD set, but it doesnt deserve anything more than D
I agree with all of the above noms, except for this one. Zekrom is still a super threatening dd sweeper that can find many setup opportunities against bulkier teams, notably using Chansey, Dusk Mane, Ferrothorn, Giratina, and non-ice beam Arceus-Water as complete setup fodder. After even one boost, Zekrom can Dynamax to OHKO a significant portion of the meta, and after it’s set electric terrain, there are very few reliable stops to it. Zekrom is a spectacularly threatening offensive presence that can put it enormous amounts of work against stall or balance teams while also not losing to Quagsire.

also:

:excadrill: C —> D / UR
I quite frankly see no reason to have this on the VR. It‘s only remotely usable if you’re trying to cteam stall, which doesn’t even care about rocks that much since everything has HDB. Excadrill is almost purely outclassed as a suicide lead by Deo-S, which is far more versatile, and has access to a lot of useful tools such as Taunt, Magic Coat, Spikes, and Screens, all of which Excadrill lacks. I’d never use Excardill on a serious team in NDAG, since not only does Hyper Offense as a playstyle struggle greatly, but Deo-S is almost strictly a better suicide lead.

edit:
:landorus-therian: —> D
This is a reasonably out-there nom that I don’t expect to get very far, but I feel like lando should be on the VR. It’s a reasonably solid secondary webs lead alongside smeargle, that provides unmatched utility in its ability to go boom on foggers, preventing them from clearing webs that Smeargle set earlier, allowing offensive threats to enter freely. It also helps to free up a moveset on Smeargle by providing Stealth Rocks, which can be invaluable, allowing Smeargle to slot Taunt and / or Rapid Spind. Lando also can help to reduce the threat posed by stuff like sub Zacian-C, breaking its sub with Earthquake to allow something else to finish it. Additionally, I’ve seen some use of offensive LO sets, although those kinda look like they’re outclassed by SD LO Groudon and / or Yveltal.
 
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Chloe

is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
NUPL Champion
i wanna get out a vr update before the crown tundra release / we switch our focus back to galar dex, so i'm going to make a few noms that i think are a long time coming / should definitely happen.

:ho-oh: A+ to A
i love ho-oh, he's like a son to me, but i can't deny that it's fallen off in the current meta. there was a time where balance was forced to run it to ease yveltal pressure / win cm arc matchups, but there's most balances just forgo it now. it's just something i barely ever add to teams, if i want to ease yveltal pressure i add spdef darkceus or fairyceus. only rly common cm arcs are water and dark, which i generally wouldn't run ho-oh for.

:kyogre: A- to A
cm lo kyogre is next to impossible to wall, in addition to other sets like specs and scarf, it's just a major hassle to deal with. one of the best stallbreakers, wallbreakers and sweepers in the tier. while it doesn't necessarily like waterceus increasing in prevalence, this isn't such a big deal for it, as it busts through support sets with ease, and also can justify thunder due to this now.

:arceus: (fairy) B+ to A-
arc-fairy is one of the best yveltal switchins, and virtually a requirement on any team not running darkceus. will-o fairy is incredibly good in a metagame that relies on its steels: zacian-c and dm to wall it, where ho-oh has fallen off. it helps lure in dm for later zacian-c sweeps, it's good removal in a tier that has virtually no mgar usage, generally just an overall very solid pokemon that helps most teams.

:zekrom: B- to B
zekrom is incredibly useful for abusing the abundance of defensive ndm, sub dd breaks through most teams, specially with mons like groundceus getting almost no usage. it also finds ways to set up against support waterceus / ho-oh, but the ability alone to abuse defensive dm and setup / sweep is enough to view zekrom as a b mon in my eyes.

:tyranitar: / :tyranitar-mega: B+ to B
i love ttar i rly do but every time i set sand im like fuck if zacian comes in now, my dm is not in shape to take it on. its also falling in relevance due to the usefulness of spdef darkceus and fairyceus, and while ttar walls yveltal better than these two it just isn't ever worth it. as a phys def ray check it's also somewhat nice, but even then, it's way too hard to justify and it doesn't warrant b+ in my eyes. maybe the mega could drop more? i'd absolutely never want to run that.

:arceus: (rock) UR to D
with the abundance of vc mray i find arc rock honestly not bad at all, probably the most reliable ray check atm, if you need to save dmax for an offensive mon like kyogre or yveltal, rockceus is great. also prevents a lot of the unnecessary 50/50s that come with defensive dmax vs mray.
 
Gonna echo my previous nom

:ss/arceus-fairy: to A(above darkceus, below eternatus) It's honestly a much more reliable check to ygod than darkceus and suffers less from 4mss as other arcs(it still suffers ofc it's arceus's) . It's also a formidable Ray check(counter if it's max speed) and being one of few arceus's able to threaten dd zygarde without ice beam or perish song.
 
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