Resource National Dex AG Viability Rankings

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Chloe

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how does this get ranked?
Omastar is a competent set-up sweeper that sets up on prevalent threats such as Ho-Oh and Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, and then continue to OHKO the majority of the metagame. It can be imposter-proofed somewhat easily with Ferrothorn, Amoonguss, Shedinja or Chansey. It can use Weak Armor boosts to come in on threats it usually can't switch into such as Zacian-C's Crunch/Play Rough and OHKO back. It can use Air Balloon to set up against Primal Groudon and Arceus-Ground, and then OHKO back with Max Quake/Max Geyser. It has little to no drawback, in the majority of matches I've brought it I find myself at least getting one important removal, and that's in the worst case scenario: Ditto. Generally, it's a better Mega Blastoise in a metagame that gets absolutely bombarded by Special Attackers. Teams don't prepare for these sort of threats and hence are overwhelmed rather easily. I implore people to check it out.

Here are the sets I use:
Omastar @ Life Orb / Air Balloon
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power

Here is my previous post on the matter:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-ag-viability-rankings.3658581/post-8430505
 
tttg's whole reasoning in the video for dropping ultra necrozma relied on not being able to set up dd with ultra necrozma? which seems more than silly to me, regardless, ultra necrozma remains potent enough for a-.
You have to keep in mind that I'm still very unfamiliar w/ the gen 8 meta and tbh have no idea what I'm talking about. Everything I said in the video was from observations I've had of a very small sample size.
 

Kaitlyn

Heatrans Rights
the worst thing that happens is people disagree with your nomination,
This is AG, people disagreeing with you is not good.

So for more people to disagree with me, I'm making a super post on two Pokemon that need to drop. (Bet you can't guess what).

To address the elephant in the room, I think it's quite remarkable how no one voted for Xerneas to drop when no one can give clear, concise reasons for it to justify its placement. If we refer back to the VR slate post,
all seven of us believe s is accurate, not really outclassed by yveltal at all, sure it has stiff competetion as a dynamax sweeper but generally has niches like forcing opponents to dynamax to check it which can aid teammates, prevents opponents from using dmax yveltal or whatever dedicated sweeper they have and eases matchup.
I'm going to give this a bit of a pass, as I will assume said niches mentioned that Xern has was no referring to Yveltal lacking these qualities. But as I just stated, these supposed "niches" are not unique in any way to it, so I still fail to understand. Yes, it forces Dynamax. So does Yveltal. If the opponent fails to Dynamax vs Yveltal, they're likely losing multiple Pokemon, the same as Xerneas. The next point after this is implied from the first and my rebuttal so I won't cover it but I do feel like I need to explain why it is so insanely hard to justify using another offensive Dmax mon over Yveltal, something I only touched upon in my video.

FACT: Yveltal is the best user of Dynamax by far.

FACT: Mega Ray was the best user of Mega Evolution by far in gen 7.


While these points may seems irrelevant, they are extremely important to understanding the crux of the situation. These are both a one time, very crucial mechanic to be used during battle. This means that exploiters of this mechanic must have valid reason to be run over more high profile abusers. As we all know, Mega Rayquaza was far from the only Mega used in gen 7. The reason for that is simple; the other Mega Evolutions did different shit than it. No good player is going to tell you that Mgar and Mray were interchangeable. The problem is that we are talking about OFFENSIVE Dynamax here. This means that there isn't going to be utility users or trappers. This is strictly for blowing holes in teams, and for that reason, it is much, much harder to justify using other Dynamaxers.

In theory, both Xerneas and Yveltal have different checks, and therefore, have reason to be used over one another. However, Yveltal has sets that can deal with EVERY SINGLE ONE of its checks, without exaggeration. TTar loses to FBlast, Band, and Physical, Diancie struggles vs band and loses to Physical, Chansey loses to Band and Physical, Spdef Darkceus and Fairceus both fail to beat Physical, and Defensive Darkceus fails to beat special. There are more that I can mention, but I think my point is quite clear. On the other hand, Xerneas has one viable set, which means that its always going to lose to Dusk Mane and Chansey. And because of the popularity of Zacian and Yveltal, along with the rise of Kyogre, it ensures that these two mons will be on practically every viable team. Yes, you can argue that all you need to do is add other Dynamax wasting mons such as SD Zacian (which still fails if the oppo is running Chansey as their Xern check), but already we have failed to meet the standards of an S rank mon. I think it is incredibly indicative if to get the best out of a Pokemon, you must surround it with subpar or at the very least, not the most optimal sets of Pokemon.

Now we can turn our heads to the other S rank mons and find that Xerneas is the only one trick pony out of all of them. Zygarde and Dusk Mane both have offensive and defensive sets which define the meta, while Zacian and Yveltal have variations in their offensive assaults, tailoring themselves to the needs of the team. Yes, Xerneas' one viable set(defensive is ass) is extremely good, but its linearity is an inherent flaw that should not go unnoticed. We can even dip into A+ rank and find that the two Pokemon residing there both have at least some flexibility with their moveset. I can even refer you fine people to S rank mons of both past gens, where literally every single one them had at least a moveslot that could change. This would of course not be a problem if Xerneas was the most potent offensive Mon in the metagame, but it is clear to anybody that it is simply not. Usage stats additionally show Xerneas dwindling in usage, while it increasingly fails to show up in higher-end tournament games.

While that is a giant text wall, I hope I've outlined exactly why I have the opinion that I do. Yes, it is extremely unpopular, but there is clear justification for it and 7 people voting against it shows a clear problem. I am not writing this simply to "pick a fight", "be toxic", or "pull another mdb" as many have and will say. Believe it or not, I am not in the business of spending >30 minutes to bullshit and act like an arrogant prick.



On to part two of making a fool out of myself, we will once again be talking about a Pokemon I have nominated down several times. Yes, that's right, I'm unfortunately going to mention the dreadful Amoonguss. Referring to the VR slate post:
amoonguss checks xerneas, ogre, groundceus, switches into most special threats with ease, you do what amoonguss does by now. it justifies c rank fairly easily, and sees use semi-frequently on serious teams.
I explained in quite a bit of detail about why Guss fails to check Xerneas, and why that isn't a reason for C rank anyway. I am quite tired of this line, as the argument falls apart once you look beyond the surface of "haha brrrr Clear Smog removes boosts brrrr". The "fairly easily" part is quite baffling to be quite frank, as this isn't even reflected on the VR slate, where Amoong only managed to stay C by one singular vote. I don't know how this is a blatant C rank mon if the council cannot even internally agree on it.

"Semi frequent use on serious teams" is a bit of a misnomer as I could very well argue that Guss being there makes it a joke(This line is also a joke FYI). Semi frequent is purposely vague, as Guss actually sees extremely little usage in high level tournament games, and has an even lower success rate. As I have already stated many, many times, Xerneas' OBJECTIVELY worse stature in the metagame undeniably hurts this mon. I am also of the opinion that high level players teambuilding choices in tournament games should NOT be a reason to base entire arguments off of. Many top players are trying to build teams that cater to what they think their opponent will bring, which may lead them to bring more niche picks. At the end of the day, Viability Rankings are not for established players, but for new ones. Naturally, this means they will be playing ladder more than likely. While I do not think VR should be Ladder Rankings, the way it is brushed aside is not fair at all.

The only thing that I 100% agree with Guss checking from the list I got is Groundceus, as it is an extremely good pivot into it. However, Ogre has clearly shown that it can beat it, whether it be through Specs or Calm Mind:
252 SpA Choice Specs Primal Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Amoonguss: 210-248 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
(The calc for CM is obv worse).a
"Most special threats" is also most of the Pokemon listed; there are not a lot of Special Attackers in the meta, and many also naturally defeat Amoong. Chansey already deals with most special threats, so the reasoning here is quite lax. Yes, Regenerator is a unique aspect and Amoong definitely deserves its spot in vr, but there is no way that it belongs in C, which from many of the people I've talked to in an effort to understand why it should be ranked where it is, is quite a popular opinion.


Most importantly, as Chloe said in her post, I want dialogue here instead of three lines which I can easily disprove or reveal it as and under/overstatement. I mentioned this in my previous post about how I wanted to understand why people think differently than I, and received next to nothing. I have spent over 50 minutes typing this behemoth up, so I would really appreciate it if I got some clarification here. Hopefully this post was respectful enough and even better, may have convinced some of you. I don't do this for kicks and giggles, I genuinely care about stuff like this, however silly it may seem. Anyway, that's it from me, hope you guys enjoy the read.

TLDR: :xerneas: TO S-
:amoonguss: TO D (Yes, again)
 

Guard

IMMORTALIZED
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so it seems the community is in need of reasoning as to why xerneas hasnt dropped (and imo wont be dropping in the near future either)
i obviously cannot speak on behalf of the entire VR team, but this is my justification as far as xerneas's ranking is concerned

given drop-reasoning in thread:
  • yveltal outclasses it
  • xerneas is one-dimensional, therefore cannot deal with its counters
  • ^ therefore needs team support, apparantly from pokemon forced to run suboptimal sets
to adress the first bit of reasoning:
is yveltal better than xerneas on the whole? yes, hence the higher ranking. does yveltal outclass xerneas? no. why? they quite simply have different niches in the metagame. yveltal is a breaker, and a breaker foremost. xerneas, if u've been playing with it correctly that is, is not a breaker at all and should never ever be used as such, as it quite frankly fails to break through contemporary defensive backbones. this has consistently been the most common misunderstanding in this community by far recently, and its a fairly justifiable one, as we've been a witness to xerneas's full potential during the beginning stages of this metagame, when it'd mow through teams with minimal effort due to the meta being underdeveloped at the time. times have changed however, and xerneas counterplay has undergone sufficient development to the point where xerneas simply cannot afford to function as a wallbreaker anymore. saying that 'yveltal can break through its checks on its own, but xerneas cant, so its outclassed by it' is incorrect reasoning, as noone has tasked xerneas with breaking its checks in the first place.

indeed, xerneas is not a wallbreaker, its a wincon, and a damn good oppressive one at that. its presence is felt outrageously heavily in builder/practice. viable (semi-)bulky teams without ndm/amoonguss/chansey do not exist. if ur xern counterplay is ndm, which it will be in an overmajority of cases, u are basically forced not to dynamax during a battle as long as xerneas hasnt taken the initiative in that aspect, which is just extremely valuable and exploitable. for this reason mostly, a well-played xerneas on a well-built team inherently and innately sets the rhythm of a battle and decides the flow therein, and this is just a phenomenally influential impact, which no other mon can consistently brag about to the extent that xerneas can. indeed, even yveltal does not influence the course of a battle this strongly regarding the dynamax aspect, as it doesnt/shouldnt force dynamax most of the time at all if u've brought satisfying counterplay to it (examples include protect hooh + protect zac or ho-oh + tar). as soon as the xern counterplay is amoonguss/chansey, ubiquitous options to abuse these present themselves, and i hopefully wont have to outline these options as they're quite straightforward. ergo, there is literally no overlapping between xerneas's and yveltal's roles in the metagame other than the fact that they both happen to need dynamax in order to reach their full potential. for this reason, this argument will never suffice in my eyes for xerneas to drop, as i think its a fairly misguided line of thought and a moot point fwiw, even though i do think the justification for this reasoning at its base is understandable.

to address the next two points:
i understand that s-rank, given the history of this rank as far as this tier is concerned, has very high bars. however, we mustnt seek to redefine s-rank into a place solely for 'busted' mons as that quite simply isnt the general definition of this rank. this rank (and im quoting smogon's standards) is reserved for mons that 'define the tier they reside in, being able to perform one role/multiple roles extremely well and lack glaring flaws which prevent them from performing said roles'. note that this doesnt say anything about s-rank mons supposedly having to do stuff on their own, and therefore shouldnt be requiring any support from teammates, as has been insinuated in this thread. also note how this clearly states that pokemon being both one-dimensional and an s-rank threat is never mutually exclusive, thus using this argument in the case of xerneas doesnt make sense either and is quite frankly a flawed argument. i can give multiple examples of one-dimensional mons needing support, yet being clear-cut s-rank, in multiple tiers (for example, ash-gren/pex in gen 7 ou immediately come to my mind) and ag should not differ from this. furthermore, xerneas clearly fits the definition in my eyes, as its wincon prowess is unmatched in this tier and it doesnt have glaring flaws as a wincon, and that is the niche xerneas should be defined with. i repeat, do not bring ndm up as a 'glaring flaw', because xerneas is not a wallbreaker.

as side notes:
xerneas most certainly doesnt force 'suboptimal sets' alongside it. dance zacian-c is extremely potent and isnt found on xern-only teams, and the same goes for wallbreaker ray sets/unecro et cetera. specially defensive ndm sets are literally nonexistent and people are even forgoing leftovers for helmet, so if anything, xerneas is in a better spot compared to a few weeks ago. what is more, and i cant stress the importance of this niche sufficiently, xerneas is the only mon capable of severely punishing yveltal for dynamaxing, and this just seems to be completely overlooked by supporters of a drop.

hopefully this addresses the main points of people in favor of a xerneas drop and provides insight into why xerneas hasnt dropped this slate
 
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I would like to put forward my own nomination. I'm new to meta so it may seem unusual.


I would like to nominate Deoxys - Speed to B+ rank

My reasoning behind this is that deoxys - speed is incredibly versatile. He can run dual screens, stealth rock and spikes and has no trouble setting them due to amazing speed. He also has half decent bulk making him able to usually set 2 hazards or 2 screens
 

Ktütverde

I like trains.
is a Tiering Contributoris a former Tournament Circuit Champion
Guardsweeper put some effort into making a post explaining why xerneas is S-rank worthy, but I disagree and I'll therefore make one to have it drop. I'll react to guard's points here:

1) "viable (semi-)bulky teams without ndm/amoonguss/chansey do not exist. if ur xern counterplay is ndm, which it will be in an overmajority of cases, u are basically forced not to dynamax during a battle as long as xerneas hasnt taken the initiative in that aspect, which is just extremely valuable and exploitable."

>You forget that even if xern didnt exist, duskmane would still be used a lot, just look at chansey teams, all have duskmane too! Indeed duskmane is mainly ran because of how ridiculously powerful zacian is, the use of rockyhelmet proves it quite clearly. Now, you don't even dynamax duskmane that often vs xerneas teams, because the extremely common core of Pdon+hooh allows to waste xerneas's dynamax and once you have sacked one of them (usually pdon), you can just go duskmane, take an HP fire and kill with sunsteel strike. I also think chansey is mainly used for Yveltal, since it provides much more support to the team than the few other yveltal hard checks (aromatherapy+blanket checks eternatus/pogre/arceus/xerneas unlike Ttar/Diancie/fairyceus). So basically, I don't think xerneas centralizes building at all because the use of duskmane and chansey isn't forced by xerneas existing in AG, it just happens to help vs it on top of dealing with what they actually check, ie Zacian and special behemoths respectively.

I don't have the replay, but I faced a team supposed to turn xerneas into a broken mon by pairing it with another xerneas and mega gengar, but guess what, I won easily cuz spdef hooh+pdon+zacian dealt with both without trouble even without duskmane (trapped by gengar).


2) "S-rank Pokemon define the tier they reside in, being able to perform one role/multiple roles extremely well and lack glaring flaws which prevent them from performing said roles"

>
This definition doesnt suit xerneas at all:
-it is a very unreliable sweeper, especially because every team packs up to 4 checks to it (Duskmane/hooh/pdon/zacian/chansey/ditto);
-is is 100% reliant on dynamax, unlike Yveltal which just wrecks havoc with darkpulse;
-it faces harsh competition from other dynamaxers such as Yveltal, Kyogre, offensive Arceus formes;
-it is quite outclassed by Zacian, since they share the exact same checks (duskmane/pdon/hooh/ditto) except Zygarde-C for zacian and Chansey for Xerneas. Zacian is much faster, much stronger, and doesn't need to dynamax.


3) Finally, if you still disagree and think xerneas centralizes building, let's look at the Ash-Gren you brought up. It centralized building very badly (forced to run toxapex+tapubulu in every bulky team kinda), but it turned out that such combos of mons that allow you to breathe vs ash gren became so standard and common that Ash-gren's usage plummeted dramatically, especially during a summer+fall where the OLT took place, to the point where Ash-gren literally disappeared from the metagame because it couldn't do anything. What do i mean by this? Well, that even if you think Xerneas massively influences teambuilding, it doesn't justify keeping its rank, because if all teams overprep for a threat, that threats becomes harder to justify and use, ie less viable.


tldr; all teams have enough xerneas counterplay without even trying, especially Pdon, spdef Hooh, duskmane, Chansey, Zacian, Ditto. Xerneas doesn't centralize teambuilding because it is checked by duskmane and Chansey as a side effect, not as the main purpose. Xerneas absolutely needs Dynamax to work unlike Yveltal, and due to the nature of its checks, makes it quite outclassed by Zacian too.


Thanks for reading, have a nice day, and sorry for shooting down your efforts Guard ;;

-ktut
 

Geysers

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I would like to nominate and share my opinion on other noms.

Noming Murkrow from UR to D

Murkrow's combination of prankster+haze is excellent in a meta where everything is broken and Geoherb Xerneas, Rock Polish Pdon, Ditto, Moody Smeargle are everywhere. As an offensive Dark-Flying type it's outclassed by Yveltal (I mean ofc it would since it's S+ Rank and also has taunt, defog, and swagplay) but Yveltal doesn't have Haze. That makes it a check to Xerneas, Pdon, and boosted Ditto. So it definitely has its niche over Yveltal and is worth using. C- or even C wouldn't be that bad either.

As for previous noms (these are the ones I mostly care about, so sorry no Arceus-Electric):

Xerneas from S to S-

The deer was and in my opinion still is one of the best Pokémon in the tier, shaping the metagame around it. I haven't seen things such as Chansey/Amoongus/NDM stall teams and it can handle them with Psyshock and HP Fire anyway, so it should stay where it is.

Deoxys-Speed from B to B+

The fastest unboosted SR lead and taunt user in the tier, not accounting for Prankster priority (Murkrow, Grimmsnarl etc.). Deoxys-Speed is indeed better than B. It can set up dual screens easily without getting destroyed by proactive Xerneas. I don’t think it should get past A- though. It’s also quite versatile.
I cannot disagree more strongly with this nomination. While prank haze is useful, it comes on such an otherwise useless mon that it should by no means be ranked. Murkrow dies in one shot to anything, and doesn’t even “check” geoxern since it dies immediately afterwards. I also disagree strongly with your other comments in this post. Geoxern should NEVER run psyshock, because it gives up the ability to damage either Ho-oh or NDM, both of which are more common than Chansey / Amoonguss. Geoxern also gets hardcountered by many things in a way that yveltal never is, making it dramatically less effective.

Now time for the part that really annoyed me. HO is just bad in the current meta. Ranking a mon that is only usable on HO even as high as B is really dumb imo.
Definition for “versatile”: “able to adapt or be adapted to many different functions or activities.” Deo-s is by NO means VERSATILE. It does ONE thing and then dies. To that end, I’m making my own nom.
:ss/deoxys-speed: —> C
HO is really bad right now, and Deoxys suffers as a result. It’s also an incredibly linear mon that can be used only on HO, and loses to other common suicide leads like excadrill. Deoxys-speed is just not very good right now. While a fast taunt is always nice, the vast majority of competent players will read an inbound taunt and play around it accordingly. In the current meta, having any non-webs capable suicide lead ranked above C is really dumb, because HO just sucks. Thanks for reading my rant!
 

Geysers

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Xerneas falls to Zacian-C and NDM after Haze, as it CANNOT geomancy twice. Murkrow is meant to shut down sweeps, not stay alive throughout the game and swagplay or do whatever as that’s outclassed by Yveltal. As for the HO rant...
HO ISN’T bad in the current meta. Zacian-C is more common than ever, and so is Mega-Ray and Xerneas. After they setup, they are almost unstoppable unless you have a Ditto or something like that. Just because bulkier threats such as Ho-Oh, NDM, etc. etc. have also become popular DOESN'T mean that HO totally sucks. HO should never be underestimated. Deoxys-Speed is the fastest unboosted Pokémon, so even if you switch into a mon that doesn't care about Taunt (e.g. Zacian-C) it will still attack you first, and it has a lot of attacks (Psychic, Psyshock, Focus Blast, Thunderbolt, etc.) INCLUDING all HP variants. Excadrill doesn't have a SE move, neither it ohkos it with EQ, and if Deo has Focus Blast, it obliterates it. In case you think it is frail like Deo-Attack, it's not. Thanks for understanding!
Last post of this argument from me, but WHY THE FUCK are you running attacks on DEO-S it should under NO circumstances use any offensive moves beyond, say, knock off. If you want something fast with a lot of power, run Deo-A. You should NEVER run any non-suicide lead set on Deo-s, simply because its attacking stats are absolutely atrocious. Deo-s should never be used a revenge killer, because it doesn’t have the firepower to actually revenge kill ANYTHING. Also it kinda defeats the point of a suicide lead to run a 4 attacks set, don’t you think? :blobthinking:
 
So 95 base special attack is considered bad. Sure, it isn't as much as many other mons and doesn't even compare to the Primal Kyogre's 180 stat, but it's actually not that bad and definitely workable.

Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Focus Blast

This set can beat Excadrill without completely sacrificing the suicide lead role.
A suicide lead is the definition of a lead with USUALLY low defenses that attempts to set up entry hazards while preventing the opponent from doing the same. Excadrill can't OHKO Deo-Speed with EQ. Deo obviously outspeeds so unless Focus Miss happens this set beats excadrill while still being effective as a suicide lead. What do you think?
AG Set Compendium said:
Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave / Magic Coat / Superpower
I'm just going to completely ignore the use of Focus Miss over Superpower and just take your post as meaning "RUN FIGHTING COVERAGE". Beating excadrill is completely beside the point; in fact, Deoxys-S is already ranked higher than it and as you can see by my other linked post, other people have already considered that. A bigger problem, in my opinion, is the fact that it doesn't provide any other utility than hazards, and it often fails in even that because it often only gets one real shot at putting up hazards, and then something like HDB Ho-Oh (common) can just come in later and remove them without taking any damage from them in the process. Besides, almost everything that would be dealt with just with hazards runs HDB (looking at lunala/lugia).
 
Looking back at my previous posts from a more serious perspective, they were absolutely laughable. Murkrow's Prankster+Haze niche is totally outclassed by Marshadow. It's outclassed by other Prankster users and Yveltal at everything else.
Geoxern's moveset should always be Geomancy-Moonblast-Thunderbolt-HP Fire as Psyshock means that while it can beat Chansey and AV Amoonguss, it can't beat more important threats such as Ho-Oh. Xerneas doesn't have to rely on Dynamax to sweep. In fact, sweeping with Dynamax is more unreliable because of the fact that HP Fire turns into Max Strike instead of Max Flare now. Pdon resists or is immune to all of its moves, so it MUST be removed before attempting to sweep with Geomancy. Almost every AG team has a Xern check without even thinking about it (Zacian-C, NDM, Ho-Oh, Amoonguss, Chansey, Pdon etc.). Maybe it should drop to S- after all.
Deo-S should either stay in B, or drop to B-. HDB Ho-Oh can't defog if it gets taunted, which is very likely, but it can switch out and then back in when Deo faints unless Mega Gengar is on the same team. I should also point out that Deo is outclassed as a dualscreener by Grimmsnarl, which has a better typing and Prankster.
 
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Ktütverde

I like trains.
is a Tiering Contributoris a former Tournament Circuit Champion
Looking back at my previous posts from a more serious perspective, they were absolutely laughable. Murkrow's Prankster+Haze niche is totally outclassed by Marshadow. It's outclassed by other Prankster users and Yveltal at everything else.
Geoxern's moveset should always be Geomancy-Moonblast-Thunderbolt-HP Fire as Psyshock means that while it can beat Chansey and AV Amoonguss, it can't beat more important threats such as Ho-Oh. Xerneas doesn't have to rely on Dynamax to sweep. In fact, sweeping with Dynamax is more unreliable because of the fact that HP Fire turns into Max Strike instead of Max Flare now. Pdon resists or is immune to all of its moves, so it MUST be removed before attempting to sweep with Geomancy. Almost every AG team has a Xern check without even thinking about it (Zacian-C, NDM, Ho-Oh, Amoonguss, Chansey, Pdon etc.). Maybe it should drop to S- after all.
Deo-S should either stay in B, or drop to B-/C+. HDB Ho-Oh can't defog if it gets taunted, which is very likely, but it can switch out and then back in when Deo faints unless Mega Gengar is on the same team. I should also point out that Deo is outclassed as a dualscreener by Grimmsnarl, which has a better typing and Prankster.
HP fire turns into max flare, yes even now today.
Pdon resists Xern's attacks but they are too powerful after geo+dmax, so max starfall easily 2hkoes it: u dont need to remove it, just to weaken it a bit if u dont want to waste 2 dmax turns to beat it.
 

Icemaster

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I've had a few gripes with the AG Viability Rankings now as is, and some other council members have the same thoughts too. Currently, a large amount of mons are being ranked because of their capability to sweep as dynamaxers. I think that's totally the wrong way to go about it, as dynamax itself is inherently powerful - almost any mon which has a decent coverage or can boost attack/speed has a great potential to sweep with dynamax. If we're following this reasoning we ought to add about 15 other good dynamax users to D rank which are utterly outclassed by the S rank ones. That's because dynamax itself is powerful, not the mon. I think ranking mons for their dynamax potential is fine usually - see Yveltal/Xerneas which are S rank largely due to their dynamax capabilities - but mons which are added must have good enough niches as a dynamaxer to justify using over these mons to be ranked, in my opinion. Mons such as Zekrom are falling not because they aren't extremely potent dynamaxers, but because they are hard to justify over the even better dynamaxers - NDM, Yveltal, Xerneas and Zygarde-200%.

And with that, I'll comment my opinion on every low tier dynamaxer/do some noms:

:Omastar:D to UR
It's niche is sweeping teams with its good coverage (water/ground/ice) and setting up on Ho-Oh when it doesn't click whirlwind. It's very awkward to fit on a team due to its low bulk and there's a lot of other better mons which offer targeted coverage to kill stuff which I'd much rather use over it (like SD groundceus/Xern or Physical LO Yve). It loses to ferro and defensive dmax NDM, but it can kill other stuff a lot of other stuff/force the dynamax. I personally wouldn't ever use it but on a meme team - one which specifically goes out of its way to use it (and would be more successful with a better dmaxer), but I guess it has potential. Also ditto.

:Kartana: D to UR
Gets to use Max Airstream + a choice from knock off/sd/leaf blade/sacred sword/smart strike. However, its pretty difficult to setup (only sets up on like DM/Ferro/Waterceus and has to force switches otherwise), while losing to very common defensive dmaxers like Ho-Oh and NDM. Basically, no real niche. Also ditto.


:Groudon: Stay in D
Good bulk and coverage, basically an alternative to SD groundceus but noticeably stronger (with LO) and you can also slot airstream. For instance, it gets these calc compared with Groundceus, which imo is pretty significant. It also takes less from Zacian and is easier to improof than groundceus (defensive zygod). It can also be a decent hazard/defensive mon as it has a good MU vs other PDons. For me this is a good enough niche.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Groudon Max Quake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 417-491 (99.2 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Groudon Max Quake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Water: 422-499 (95 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Max Quake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 303-357 (72.1 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Max Quake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Ground: 307-363 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:Genesect: D to UR
Genetic Insect's main niche is to blow stuff up with its weird coverage, depending on if it gets beneficial Download buffs - it has a varied movepool. However, Yveltal basically does the same thing and way better with its myriad of sets (particularly Physical LO). Genesect's shift gear set just fails to ho-oh/defensive ndm, you could only use the (outclassed) special set.

:Arceus-Flying: (Flying) D to C
One of the low tier dynamaxers I can really get behind - with a Refresh/Recover set it crumbles teams. While it can struggle with SpDef Ho-Oh, you can dynamax to force it out and attempt to set up more or Toxic Ho-Oh. Flying Dynamax is insanely broken. Last mon flyceus can attempt to sweep as it no longer phases. The single largest issue for this is probably Zacian-Crowned, however as Arceus-Flying can repeatedly come in and Zacian cannot (hit it on the switch or use hazards), this can be mitigated.
Arceus-Flying @ Sky Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 240 HP / 180 Def / 88 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Recover
- Refresh
- Calm Mind
Sharp Beak is used and I turn judgment into a base 100 flying move as the calculator is a bit bugged with plates right now.

+2 0 SpA Sharp Beak Arceus-Flying Max Airstream vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 174-204 (53.5 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade (100 BP) vs. 240 HP / 180+ Def Dynamax Arceus-Flying: 440-522 (49.8 - 59.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Sharp Beak Arceus-Flying Max Airstream vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde: 408-480 (97.1 - 114.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery - prevent the haze.

+1 0 SpA Sharp Beak Arceus-Flying Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ho-Oh: 120-142 (28.8 - 34.1%) -- 98.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 SpA Sharp Beak Arceus-Flying Max Airstream vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ho-Oh: 156-184 (37.5 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 SpA Sharp Beak Arceus-Flying Judgment vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 150-177 (36 - 42.5%) -- 92.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 SpA Sharp Beak Arceus-Flying Max Airstream vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 195-229 (46.8 - 55%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

replay vs Zacian: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1100022789-1rt7d3r8ivgzqokj3940fyukeze4dm9pw - not the most solid player but I guess it shows off how easy it is to setup
replay vs a Ho-Oh balance: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1100050845-4jwwhssx7uixowlwoay9da4s990eovvpw - vs a marginally better player, status the ho-oh, chip it, dynamax, and you can break. I did lose here, but it shows what flyceus can do.

:Thundurus-Therian: C to D
Too frail, struggles to setup. It's niche of being able to improof itself isn't enough to consider really using it on any serious team. It's not too difficult to stall DMax turns by using your own Dmax/protect/doubles and is pretty much OHKOed by any max move the second dmax ends. Neutral weak attacks like Sacred Fire do around 65%, and this isn't even a risky play as prior to setting up thundurus doesn't hit hard at all. Once setup though, it is hard to withstand attacks. I'd argue the point on improofing is possibly even incorrect, as ditto's run HP Fire or Rock which can revenge it quite easily.
+2 252+ SpA Thundurus-Therian Max Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dynamax Thundurus-Therian: 343-404 (57.3 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Thundurus-Therian Max Rockfall vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dynamax Thundurus-Therian: 686-808 (114.7 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In retaliation,
+2 252+ SpA Sharp Beak Thundurus-Therian Max Airstream vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dynamax (Ditto) Thundurus-Therian: 309-363 (51.1 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Basically you have to still be in dynamax and above around 70% HP to guarantee the improof (LO and Max roll). If they run HP Rock, you don't have a chance


To reiterate, we basically have two options: only rank dynamaxers which have a significant niche, or rank basically every dynamaxer which has a decent sweeping potential due to its unique coverage/typing, including things like Palkia, Eleceus, Reshiram, Rayquaza. I'd much rather only rank those with a significant niche. I think the upper VR is in a very good position right now,
 
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When I checked Xern's HP Fire Dynamax move it said "Max Strike", but using it results into Max Flare. It might be a glitch. Thanks for correcting!
It's not a glitch! That's how Multi Attack works in-game (displaying as Max Strike included), so it was decided that that was the most cartridge-accurate way to interpret Hidden Power's mechanics as well, since Hidden Power itself isn't available to test. C:
 
Low tier Dynamaxers are being ranked, so I decided to give my opinion on some of the noms/do my own noms.
dialga.jpg from UR to D
Dialga is basically impossible to OHKO with a special attack with AV+Dynamax and can beat Ho-Oh, Xerneas, Yveltal, and non-rest Pdon.
Dialga @ Assault Vest
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Power Gem
- Flash Cannon
- Draco Meteor
252+ SpA Dialga Max Rockfall vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 456-540 (109.6 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Dialga Max Steelspike vs. +2 4 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 266-314 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Xern 3HKOs)

252+ SpA Dialga Max Rockfall vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Yveltal: 392-462 (99.7 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Dialga Max Rockfall vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yveltal: 350-414 (89 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (Yveltal can't even touch Dialga)

252+ SpA Dialga Max Quake vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 274-324 (67.8 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Pdon also 2HKOes but Dialga is faster)
Dialga forces all of these top tiers (aside from Rest Pdon) to Dynamax. If the opponent has already dynamaxed a mon, they are basically dead. I think this niche is enough for it to be ranked. Now for the other noms:
omastar.pngfrom D to UR
Neutral. It has a hard time setting up, but when it does, it reaches 658 Special Attack and 458 speed which makes it outspeed base 150s and OHKO anything that isn't a special wall (looking at Lunala/Chansey). Idk if it should be ranked.
genesect.pngfrom D to UR
Yes. Just as ice-master-523 said, it's mostly outclassed by Yveltal, and being outclassed by Yveltal is not a good thing in the current meta. It's significantly worse due to its 4× fire weakness (Ho-Oh and Pdon are everywhere).
 
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sorry, I forgot how to do sprites

Deoxys-S B to C: Disagree

Hyper offense isn't perfect but it isn't unviable. There's a good selection of setup sweepers which can tear through balance and stall teams like pdon, ultranecrozma, offensive necrozma-dm, zacian-c, xerneas and ghostceus. I would be neutral to moving DeoS to B- but DeoS is more relevant than niche mons like Amoonguss and Excadrill.

Some of the biggest threats to hyperoffense are defensive mons, flying types like Yveltal and Mray (or both in Ho-Oh's case) and Ditto, none of which care about webs. Webs are nice but not a necessity especially if you're building around sets with speed boosting moves like dragon dance or geomancy (and double dance pdon has the added bonus of outspeeding mray).

Genesect and Omastar D to UR: Neutral but

Maybe I'm completely wrong here but it seemed like they got on the viability ranking after a short period of experimentation. Even if these are viable I think getting onto the VR at all should be a high bar that requires pokemon to still look viable after the metagame has had a chance to uncover their limitations and to see that these pokemon can be applied as an option for different teams.

Sometimes smogon VRs have a "discussion slate" in the first post which lists movements that appear to be valid but are very recent and I think this one would benefit from that.
 

Guard

IMMORTALIZED
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Moderator
Heyy fren I appreciate you outlining your thoughts, definitely think some of your reasoning is the best I've seen for a Xerneas drop. I do disagree with some points but I agree SpD Ho-Oh eases the matchup to a point where you sometimes can afford not to Dynamax + NDM primarily being used to check Zacian although I think this is only a pluspoint for Xerneas. I still think Xerneas is an S-rank presence, but nevertheless we will revote on it.

To make some additional nominations and a few structural changes:

A- >>> A
Arceus-Water has equal general utility as Arceus-Ground, with both providing different assets to a team. A few things Arceus-W has over Arceus-G are the facts that it doesn't invite (Primal) Kyogre and Yveltal in as much as its Ground-type brethren, punishes Xerneas for setting up since it can forego Ice Beam for Toxic more often, can pivot into Scarf Kyogre and proactively forces Ho-Oh out. It does trade this with a worse matchup against Zacian-C and Eternatus, but Arceus-G doesn't exactly check those reliably so these aren't major hallmarks you are missing out on anyway. It's also worth noting that Arceus-W's Calm Mind Refresh set is often fairly potent, which adds a layer to its overall viabilty too, although it of course isn't the main argument for a rise.

:gothitelle: B+ >>> A-
Gothitelle is just in a ludicrously good spot right now, because its targets are ubiquitous and as far as the trapping niche is considered, Gothitelle outclasses Mega Gengar by several miles as its skill ceiling is much lower, thus facing no competition in this regard. The recently discovered Z-Charm set (s/o bigtalk Zayele) can afford to run SpD EVs to trap Support Arceus formes, while not compromising its ability to trap physically oriented targets such as Necrozma-DM and Haze Zygarde-C, all the while taking no boosted Knock Off damage. This provides it with a set that is not so much tailored to specific Gothitelle abusers, but optimizes its general matchup against the defensive metagame. Add the fact that Whirlwind Ho-Oh, defensive Lunala, and defensive Dragon Tail Zygarde-C are getting rarer with every passing day and you've got a strong case for a Gothitelle rise.

:lunala: A- to B+ (s/o Zayele for the nom)
Defensive Lunala is obviously nonexistent and outclassed and more of a strain to your team than a benefit. Choice Specs/Lunalium Z are definitely the better sets, but these do not hold the relevance required for an A- ranking in the current metagame either.

:smeargle: to B+ >>> B
:deoxys-speed::grimmsnarl::vivillon: to C
Hyper Offense is just not in a consistent state at all right now, and these are all heavily connected to the playstyle. Webs is still a fine enough playstyle and in my opinion definitely the superior HO playstyle right now, thus Smeargle shouldn't go lower than B since it's the best Webs setter, but the other Pokemon are either not representative of the current metagame or outclassed within their playstyle.

There are a few structural changes I'd like to request for this VR too. I do not feel particularly strongly for any of these but would like to have them considered regardless.

Remove D-rank:
It's not a secret that the lowermost echelon of the VR for this particular metagame is an extremely subjective and largely unnecessary part. The fact that we are forced to consistently rank Pokemon such as Omastar and Genesect solely because they fit the definition of this particular rank is just extremely arbitrary and subject to reconsideration on a constant basis. Therefore, I do not see the point of keeping this rank as it adds next to nothing contentwise to the VR and unnecessarily adds a layer of unwanted arbitrariness. We must of course revote on all D-ranks to C if this passes through, as I do think some of the D-rank Pokemon deserve a place in the VR.

Order S/A ranks viabilitywise:
This, on the other hand, would go a long way in representing our metagame more correctly and, in my opinion, is fairly easy to do in an objective fashion due to the overall centralization in this metagame.
 
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Kaitlyn

Heatrans Rights
Remove D-rank:
It's not a secret that the lowermost echelon of the VR for this particular metagame is an extremely subjective and largely unnecessary part. The fact that we are forced to consistently rank Pokemon such as Omastar and Genesect solely because they fit the definition of this particular rank is just extremely arbitrary and subject to reconsideration on a constant basis. Therefore, I do not see the point of keeping this rank as it adds next to nothing contentwise to the VR and unnecessarily adds a layer of unwanted arbitrariness. We must of course revote on all D-ranks to C if this passes through, as I do think some of the D-rank Pokemon deserve a place in the VR.
I disagree with this heavily. AG is a melting pot of innovation and new ideas, and for me D rank has always represented a place for out there strats that can succeed to reside. Part of the reason why I play AG is for the fun and creative aspects, and nuking D rank makes it feel more like some rigid VR for an official format, and not some basically Pet Mod one. Omastar and Genesect don't even fit the definition, idk why you're using Council ineptitude as a reason to remove stuff. It also doesn't make much sense as I'd probably see us having to divide up C rank cuz there is some clearly outclassed Pokemon there, which just creates more work for no reason.
 

Geysers

Come to AG! We have cookies.
is a Pre-Contributor
:blobthinking: If D is being filled with unusable shitmons, I’d like to make a nomination! :blobthumbsup:
:ss/mudsdale: —> D
Mudsdale @ Leftovers
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Rock Slide
- Roar
- Rest

This mud-horse-thingy is a solid blanket check to a significant portion of the meta’s physical attackers, switching in freely to pokemon like Ho-oh, NDM, and Pdon. It also switches in freely to Zacian on any of CC, Crunch, and Play Rough, then forces it out or sits there taking hits and eventually kills Zac with Body Press. Mudsdale should run rock slide in order to effectively pressure Ho-oh, and roar enables it to prevent pokemon from setting up on it, as well as preventing Gothitelle from trapping it. Mudsdale also puts a hard stop to most offensive NDM sets, living hits and eventually resting. This thing is actually far from an unusable shitmon, although it does require a reasonable amount of team support to shut down special attackers.

E: just got this https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1100897299
 
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Oof there are so many arguments about D-rank

arceus.png (electric) from UR to D
Yes. BoltBeam is really damn good in AG and hits threats like Yveltal, Zygarde, Ho-Oh, Lugia etc. etc. It also has a good defensive typing, being only weak to Ground.

kartana.png from D to UR
Neutral. Just like Omastar, difficult to set up but reaches incredible stats and is actually usable while not Dynamaxed.

groudon.png from D to UR
No. This is actually very usable over Groundceus and its Primal forme because it is not vulnerable to Ditto.

thundurus-therian.png from C to D
Yes. Ho-Oh's UNINVESTED Sacred Fire 2HKOes it. So its only chance of even setting up is against something like a Ferrothorn. Duh.

arceus.png (flying) from D to C
Yes. This doesn't even need Dynamax to work well, and can switch into many Ground-type attacks, most notably Pdon's Precipice Blades.

garbodor.png mons from UR to D
BIG no. Just because Dynamax is a thing this gen doesn't mean these things should be ranked.

deb50fdc437477b.png from UR to D
Neutral?? Idk if it should be ranked but it definitely isn't an unviable shitmon.

Finally the big one.
I really disagree with the D-rank being removed. I have already said it in the other post with the Dialga nom, but I don't think Omastar and Genesect should be ranked, especially the latter. The Council adding irrelevant mons to the VR isn't a good reason to remove the rank in the first place. Many mons in the tier are good enough to rise to C-rank, so removing it instead of the shitmons that shouldn't be ranked at all is a bad idea.
 

Ktütverde

I like trains.
is a Tiering Contributoris a former Tournament Circuit Champion
Just making a post in order to help newer users (or anyone who gets too excited when making nomination posts) about a misconception about the meaning of "being Viable". Even if you win 1 million games with say, Mudsdale (lol sorry but it is a very nice example), Zygarde-C will always 100% outclass it, and so will Groundceus. To make it work isnt enough, it must also have a niche over something ranked higher. And still, it must also be good at what it does differently.

So before you nom anything, or think about nominating anything, follow these steps that I think most people who make serious nominations have followed, probably without thinking about it in such a detailed manner:

The Guide for VR nominations
0) Is my mon viable? (let's think without this word)
1) Does my pokemon do what it is supposed to do consitently (5-10 games) (example: Amoonguss always beats both Xerneas and Smeargle)
2) Is my pokemon role different enough from something ranked higher (example: Thundurus-T has Nastyplot to continue sweeping once Dynamax is over unlike Yveltal/ It isnt checked by Necrozma-DM, the most common defensive Dmaxer, unlike Xerneas)
3) Can I make more than 1 team (2 or 3 will suffice) that do need this Pokemon for the unique niche it provides?
4) Are these teams I made actually usable in a competitive environment? Have I tested them against different teams? (for example: you will always face Necrozma-DM, but have you tested your Pokemon against defensive Zygarde? against Yveltal? against Ho-Oh?) (if you test on ladder for example, you can play 20 games without facing Metagame staples like Rest Zygarde and Ho-Oh, since most teams are Offense there)
5) Can I expect other people to use this Pokemon?

Go through these 5 steps, not necessarily in that order, but what's important is that you can answer yes to every of them. If you indeed can answer yes everytime, feel free to nominate your Pokemon, but don't forget this:

6) Post a couple of carefully selected replays for each one of your teams so as to semi-prove 1), let other people decide on whether 2) is actually a yes, prove 3) and 4), and make 5) to become true, hopefully.


I hope my post made sense. Idk what else to say. Ciao!
 
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