Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Nashrock]

Bax: I think this mon at most deserves a sus. Unlike OU, we have decent walls like m-scizor to stop bax from sweeping, and the prevalence of mons like m-lop can revenge kill it. And our meta has more decent fairies like lele, koko, m-diancie so bax can't just click scale shot recklessly.

Sneasler: at least sus this guy first but probably not qb. I agree with all the points about natural checks, 4MSS, etc, but it's the mon with most RNG factors in the meta. Sometimes it's not about your strategy but your wall like zap got dire-spore-clawed and static never works lol. Losing to this feels as frustrating as losing to king's rock or quick claw.

Ghold: Tend to keep it there. It surely is a wonderful mon and the meta is developing around it, but just like Jho mentioned, it's more like the role lando-T played in previous gens. Ghold is great at role-compressing but I rarely found it hard to fight against with a decent team ( nobody complains lando-T is overwhelming unless they're using some trash teams right). And it doesn't limit teambuilding that much. Speed control/ ghost resist/... there're tons of ways to deal with it.

And yes no more free darkrai posts please.

 

[Oculars]

if you dont feel like diving into that then another question, how are people finding the DLC metagame post Hearthflame?

Post hearthflame ban people are getting away with running a lot more passive teams and unaware spam stall due to the lack of a useable mold breaker mon (no mega gyara doesnt count it loses to body press dozo), ive encountered a stall looking something like this running around high ladder

with confide chansey to beat calm mind bloodmoon ursa.

Ive come to the conclusion the only way to get around teams like this when using pure offence is knock spam combined with hsam spike stacking, as theres just about no reliable breakers to use right now. with dozo and clod you have unaware walls you can throw out to blanket check 90% of physical and special attackers and then just dedicate your other 4 slots or tera types to covering the few mons that overlap and can hit both like specs lele or rillaboom.
Given everything thats been banned has been solely offensive the metagame has slowly crept up to a point where stall is good again.

 

[Nashrock]

Post hearthflame ban people are getting away with running a lot more passive teams and unaware spam stall due to the lack of a useable mold breaker mon (no mega gyara doesnt count it loses to body press dozo), ive encountered a stall looking something like this running around high ladder

with confide chansey to beat calm mind bloodmoon ursa.

Ive come to the conclusion the only way to get around teams like this when using pure offence is knock spam combined with hsam spike stacking, as theres just about no reliable breakers to use right now. with dozo and clod you have unaware walls you can throw out to blanket check 90% of physical and special attackers and then just dedicate your other 4 slots or tera types to covering the few mons that overlap and can hit both like specs lele or rillaboom.
Given everything thats been banned has been solely offensive the metagame has slowly crept up to a point where stall is good again.

This team has been around for a while even before dlc. Band h-samu, hoppa, bloodmoon and many other mons can break this team easily. And I don’t remember when mold breaker becomes a necessity to break stalls.

 

[Oculars]

This team has been around for a while even before dlc. Band h-samu, hoppa, bloodmoon and many other mons can break this team easily. And I don’t remember when mold breaker becomes a necessity to break stalls.

when I played the team I had cm bloodmoon which cant break the team i was using cm tera poison with moonlight, chansey just spams confide and av hoopa-u neither of which worked. banded hsam probably works tho like i said in the post.

 

[cfdu1202]

Alright thats far enough off topic, we aren't looking to unban Darkrai anytime soon, if ever. Metagame is in no fit state to start unbanning anything, let alone Darkrai. Anything more on it will be deleted and possibly lurk mored if its particularly egregious.

To steer us back on track, the three highest scoring Pokemon on the most recent survey were Baxcalibur, Sneasler, and Gholdengo. What are peoples thoughts on each of these and how do people want to see us handle them?

My current thoughts are that while Bax and Sneasler are really potent threats at the minute, Gholdengo seems to be a core issue in the metagame as it does so much. It keeps a vast portion of strong contenders at bay; things like Tapu Lele, Iron Valiant, and even Sneasler itself to some degree are all kept under control by Gholdengo's existence. Gholdengo itself is also incredible at forcing progress vs a variety of teams, either via Tricking Scarf onto would-be checks or being able to easily set up on the vast majority of bulkier inclusions in the tier. None of this is to mention its ability to completely deny removal, which makes Spike Stacking so much harder to deal with especially with the quality of Spike setters we have in the tier now.

All of that being said, I'm still unsure if banning Gholdengo is the healthier move for the metagame, as all the aforementioned threats get exponentially better and it could lead to an avalanche effect where we have to get rid of a lot of Pokemon to re-stabilise. I think its a really interesting discussion and If Gholdengo does ever get a suspect test I think that will be the main conversation to have, similar to how the discussion always used to go around Lando-T in past generations; whether or not the almost incomparable compression is itself broken.

If you dont feel like diving into that then another question, how are people finding the DLC metagame post Hearthflame?

I am in support of a Baxcalibur quickban, I think the defensive tools we have in the team builder is too easily overwhelmed by a well-supported Baxcalibur. The offensive options against it are quite limited, too.

Then a Gholdengo suspect is quite needed, this Pokemon and its ability is just too game warping. I would really want to see how a Gholdengo-less metagame would develop.

Sneasler can be banned but it doesn't have as much importance as Baxcalibur and especially Gholdengo in the metagame, so I would prefer to look at the aforementioned two threats first. Quickban it if Gholdengo ends up Ubers though.

I 100% oppose the return of Mega-Metagross at the moment, this Pokemon is too overwhelming on paper.

 

[red fintans]

i think we really cannot unban anything at all until we sort out the stuff that needs banning first, otherwise its just compounding the amount of mess we have to deal with

 

[Chilli Dewd]

Okay so it seems that every time we are close to having a balanced metagame, a new dlc comes in and makes us start all over again. We already banned Ogerpon Hearthflame, but as we can see, there is still a lot more to cover. So I wanna give my overall toughts some mons that have shape the meta one way or another, and talk about the impact they have on the meta, why is it considered broken, and what action should be taken.


Perhaps above all these broken mons, this one is likely the one to stand out the most. Baxcalibur was a decent mon in its release, but it was not "considered" broken. However, during the latest DLC, Baxcalibur was gifted the access to the move Scale Shot, a multi hit Dragon type attack that gives its user a +1 speed after it hits(with also reducing -1 defense). If all five attacks hit, this would do more damage than Bax's own Sig, Glavie Rush. Most Bax were already using Loaded Dice to max on Icicle Spear, but with the addition of another multi hit move, it became a staple. This allows Bax to take away Dragon Dance and add the more instant Swords Dance. After this buff, Bax started to immediately see a huge amount of usage, mainly on HO and Snow. Snow wasn't considered much of a threat, but after the buff it started to rise immensely in usage. One of the biggest problems with Bax is its ability Thermal Exchange, which makes it not only immune to burn, but also gains a +1 attack upon getting hit by a Fire move. And with a titanic 145 attack, Baxcalibur is very difficult to switch into. The only few options that seem to work are either Dondozo or Skeledirge, both of which are exploitable. Skeledirge requires Tera in order to work as a proper counter, otherwise it gets taken out by repeated Earthquakes, meanwhile Dondozo tends to be a sitting duck a lot of the times. Baxcalibur can potentially sweep entire teams with ease. Defensive teams tend to struggle a lot due to a lack of switchins, but even offensive teams can struggle to break it as well, if it gets +1 turn of speed, it can be lights out right there, and even of you manage to revenge kill it, it leaves a sizeable mark.
Action to take: Quickban


You can say that this mon right here has been quite the money maker (if u know me by this point, you know that i have to do at least 1 pun, ok?). Gholdengo has always been a solid mon since its introduction. Great typing, amazing 133 spatk, decent bulk, and of course, that one Good As Gold ability. this ability not only denies status, pretty much killing stall in the tier, it also denies Defog attempts. Because of this, hazard stacking teams are quite popular in the National Dex format. Through out most the tier's lifetime Gholdengo was considered ok due to the existence of Kingambit. But once that and Dragapult were banned, it started to crawl its way into the very top and its currently the most used pokemon in the entire tier. Once Gholdengo gets in, which isnt very difficult to do giving its typing and bulk, its going to hit something really hard. What perhap might make Gholdengo so hard to deal with is that really high special attack and Ghost typing, since theyre very few that can withstand its hits. Blissey can take them well, but what is Blissey going to do in return? Toxapex could be decent, but it can just setup Nasty Plots on its face or lock it via Tricked Choice Scarf. Clodsire is one of the few decently bulky enough mons to handle it somewhat, and even this isnt prefect cuz like the other 2 mentions, is just too passive. Most Pursuitters also lacks either that ability to switch in, or to ko it outright. Tyranitar and Weavile arent going to take Make It Rain, and Bisharp cant even ko it. And this seems to be real poblem with the Golden Boy, those that predicting Gholdengo's rise after Kingambit's ban were absolutely right.
Action to take: Suspect test


Ever since it's realese, it has been a staple in offensive teams. Some of these include mostly teams utilizing terrains, like Koko Screens, Rillaboom Offense, and Psychicspam. with its Unburden ability giving double speed with an already fast 120 speed, this eliminates speed control from the opponent except for priority and the niche Trick Room. it also doesn't help that Sneasler is an incredibly powerful sweeper, with a 130 atk and an amazing stab combo while of course having access to Swords Dance. Hawlucha was already pretty decent in HO teams, but this mon pretty much made him obsolete. But perhaps the most hated thing about Snealser is it's sig, Dire Claw. with a move having a higher chance for any status than a Scald burn is very annyoing, just imagine you had a pokemon that take a hit and kill it only to feel asleep. While there is counterplay to Sneasler, it is very frustrating to face and sometimes even the counters could lose to rng.
Action to take: Suspect test

And these are my honest opinions for these mons. An honorable mention i would like to say is Bloodmoon, as I feel like this can be very hard to switch into an if it gets Calm Minds going its hard to stop. Hopefully we can find the balanced metagame we all dream of.

 

[Danwithnoplan]

Bax is definitely more of a problem than i gave it credit for pre hearthflame ban. Its really not that hard for it to get going with how ridiculously fat it can get with snow and veil support, or for it to suddenly resist or flat out become immune to its weaknesses. With its only real defensive counter being the easily exploitable dondozo, this thing a real pain to deal with in the builder.

Bax is very unhealthy in my opinion and i think it should start seeing some tiering action sooner rather than later.

 

[CaptainSC]

I just spent the last couple of days grinding out on the natdex ladder cus I was bored and these are my thoughts about the tier after playing and using everything from the sample teams, shit mons and everything/ anything.

BM

1. BM is just as stupid it was in reg. OU. there's a bit more counterplay but IMO this thing just insnt a positive factor in this metagame. in most matchups it literally trades w 2 pkmn at the minimum if played half decently.

sneasler

2. sneasler HO is kinda dumb. like yeah it takes skill to position yourself but idk I just don't like what it does w koko...... I think it's much more manageable when rilla is the only TRULY good terrain setter in OU. but w the super fast pivoting of koko that lets you chip and wear down opponents way faster it becomes really annoying to deal w. + dire claw is an unserious move.

ghold

3. NGL I don't know how to feel about this one..... on the one hand it's incredibly strong and it's 100% the best pokemon in the tier IMO. but I do think it's nearing on the side of it being too strong but I'm iffy on if it deserves a ban.

That's because you really can pivot around it since it's stabs arent the MOST spammable with it having semi-considerable drawbacks to clicking aimlessly. and it's not the fastest pokemon to deal with since it's either fat spedef or offensive. and i found that it's pretty easy to wear down once you have spikes up due to it switching in on so many things. And even it has a balloon it's tasked to switch into a lot of things bc it's got the ability to switch into just about everything despite it having an offensive spread. so with hazards up it's much easier to wear down despite it having recover.

However, I do understand checking broken w broken is fundamentally a stupid principal..... so i would say suspect this fs.

TL;DR shits strong asf but idk if its ban worthy + it does good for the tier that no pokemon is able to replicate.

proof that ive been playing lmao

 

[Eve L. Duehr]

Hello! I'm a stall ape who lurks on this forum but given the Gholdengo discussion I figured I should finally say something.

When discussing the addition of new offensive threats to the tier, I think we have been underestimating the impact Gholdengo will have on their eventual suspect tests. Gholdengo makes hazard stacking very strong, which in turn strengthens offensive Pokémon such as Roaring Moon. If Gholdengo were to be suspect tested and then banned, the logical conclusion is that previously banned offensive mons might be more balanced in the new, string-cheese free metagame. I see that as a win, after all, when Kingambit was suspected and banned, the playerbase seemed vocal about wanting changes.

I also think Gholdengo is less than healthy overall. When looking at the results of the metagame survey, it was clear that the community felt the meta was unbalanced. With Hearthflame gone, Gholdengo is arguably the biggest player in the current meta, and the community was in general agreement that the meta is not in a healthy place. The players were vocal about wanting changes when the Kingambit supect happened, and went ahead with the ban, knowing that removing Gholdengo's main counter could lead to a scenario in which it was banned as well. I believe we're in this scenario right now; Gholdengo seems to be warping the playstyle of the tier and making fat balance and defensive teams much harder to play. The meta feels, to me, very similar to how it did pre-kingambit ban. We said we wanted changes in the metagame, and we now have the opportunity to do that.

National Dex OU is the tier of standard play for the National Dex metagame, and I don't think "broken checks broken" should be the glue holding the face of National Dex together. While it often can feel bad to ban a mon, especially a prominent one, we need to look to the future of the tier when considering Gholdengo. I believe banning Gholdengo will both help lead the meta to a healthier place, and cause the changes the playerbase has been asking for.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

I tend to like broken mons and sometimes I dont want a ban of an "overwhelming presence" since wTF overwhelming presence is if snorlax isn't banned in gen2 OU? But at this point I have to give my opinion.

The one, the unique

Baxcalibur is that pseudo legendary from gen9 and it is, let's sAY it, broken. Yes i like broken mons But this one is particularly intense. Yay I've wanted to run BRONZONG in my team to counter it. I've been told that if I play unmons to counter one it is broken. That dragon not only has no valuable counter, since mega scizor can't kill it under Aurora veil and snow, and that it has 115/92/76 bulk, make it Firstly too tanky, secondly the best of the best snow abuser in the game, and with that god-high attack of 145, don't expect to win once it has clicked swords dance.

The one-thousand coins, the not unique

this is what I'd call an overwhelming presence, but that's not an argument for gen2 players right? The one thousandth pokemon has proven itself as aegislash but better, making it pretty difficult to deal with. Perhaps ground types check it? No, air balloon is common. Perhaps a good old knock off? Nooo, ghostium z also exists! With the ability good as ghold and its correct bulk and good typing, pretty much no team can be immune to this risk. No knock users are good enough, no eq user is polyvalent enough, except offensive lando-T which means the coin pile has got ONE counter that is not the most common pokemon at all.

The teal mask spoiler alert

Ursaluna bloodmoon is such a good mon, nerfed by its special bulk, nonexistent. With the presence of rain, of the tapus, of z-moves I don't see a world where this is broken. Bloodmoon is hard, yea, but anything with actual speed can wall it, since it is rarely played with max spa. It has a good presence and could be as good as gen8 melmetal tho.

RNG king, hawlucha 2.2.0, toxicroak but better, the role compressor

yeah let's talk of sneasler. This is the rng master and can basically run through everything in its way, finding as only counter physdef aegislash, tankier than ghold, and can hit physical to exploit weak defense stat(60), even boosted by seeds. Overall, broken. If it doesn't count on rng, it can gunk shot and 2hko zapdos, particularly dangerous on switch-in.

Well, overall:
-ban
-suspect
-no ban
-ban

 

[Chilli Dewd]

Well boyz, u heard it... https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-national-dex-suspect-7-gold-chains.3729692/
smogon has the rich man under the suspect radar... will he pay for his crimes for the tier or will he get away scot free?

Im sure a lot of us are familiar with this face. Gholdengo has been a solid tier staple for many teams in National Dex. With that being said, Gholdengo seems to have taken over the meta, almost as if he owned the tier. With that said, i would like to ask; if Gholdengo were to be banned, how would this impact the meta as a whole?

 

[The N@me User]

With that said, i would like to ask; if Gholdengo were to be banned, how would this impact the meta as a whole?

I feel like this is a bad argument and shouldn't be used in any conversation surrounding whether Gholdengo should stay in the tier or not, considering Kingambit kept a considerable number of threats in check, and was banned regardless.

If Gholdengo stays, it shouldn't be because of what threats would be more powerful if it were banned.

 

[Chilli Dewd]

I feel like this is a bad argument and shouldn't be used in any conversation surrounding whether Gholdengo should stay in the tier or not, considering Kingambit kept a considerable number of threats in check, and was banned regardless.

If Gholdengo stays, it shouldn't be because of what threats would be more powerful if it were banned.

Well I do agree with this, but I just want to see what people think would happened if Gholdengo were to be gone, for example, would Tapu Lele start seeing much higher usage and become a problem because Gholdengo was one of the few checks to it? Or would it be better so that the metagame isnt hazard spam happy or for stall to have a small chance in the meta? This was the reasoning for my question, just wanted to see people's toughts about it. But regardless, thank you for your opinion.

 

[ssuperiority]

If ghold is banned sneasler is almost surely getting quickbanned. Iron Valiant is probably getting suspect tested too. Pokemon like Mega scizor and cresselia will have a large rise in viability, tapu lele might have to get looked into. I think the metagame will move in a direction where HO is less common now that hazards will be more easily removable. Tornadus-T will probably become a top 5 mon like before. Slowking-G will probably become OU proper, it is already seeing high tournament usage right now but it will get even better since it wont have a resist to its STABs that can hit it super effectively with Shadow Ball or set up on it.

 

[Oculars]

If ghold is banned sneasler is almost surely getting quickbanned. Iron Valiant is probably getting suspect tested too.

Sneasler will definitely have to be suspected after its most splashable check is gone but iron valiant is something people have consistently ranked low on the problematic scale, something like bloodmoon ursaluna or baxcalibur is much more likely to be looked into

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Slowking-G will probably become OU proper, it is already seeing high tournament usage right now but it will get even better since it wont have a resist to its STABs that can hit it super effectively with Shadow Ball or set up on it.

Im p sure ecery steel type Will set up on it and/or aegislash Will replace gholdengo in some teams and maybe it'll finally quit UU. Not to mention that aegislash is Also a very polyvalent mon and has a lot of sets

 

[about15gals]

Im p sure ecery steel type Will set up on it and/or aegislash Will replace gholdengo in some teams and maybe it'll finally quit UU. Not to mention that aegislash is Also a very polyvalent mon and has a lot of sets

aegislash lacks the longlevity needed to check a lot of pokemon, while its got good defensive stats w/ investment, its much more reliant on leftovers and taking spikes/rocks chip every time it comes it heavily dents its ability to check threats

 

[Oculars]

aegislash lacks the longlevity needed to check a lot of pokemon, while its got good defensive stats w/ investment, its much more reliant on leftovers and taking spikes/rocks chip every time it comes it heavily dents its ability to check threats

insane how aegislash goes from gen7 "clearly ubers not even worth testing down" to gen8/9 unviable basically UU material

 

[seth]

With that said, i would like to ask; if Gholdengo were to be banned, how would this impact the meta as a whole?

 

[dewfew]

insane how aegislash goes from gen7 "clearly ubers not even worth testing down" to gen8/9 unviable basically UU material

What essentially getting -10 to all offensive and defensive stats does to an mf

to make this not a one liner I will say that protective pads hsam is absurd and lets you absolutely spam ceaseless edge without fearing lando helmet/ferro/chomp/zapdos/Moltres etc.

Samurott-Hisui @ Protective Pads
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Razor Shell
- Ceaseless Edge
- Sucker Punch

I am beyond convinced this pokemon can run any (usually viable) item and make it look broken

 

[Thedeathsofbeings234]

Here's my (actual) thoughts on the more powerful mons in the tier.

Baxcalibur

This mon is just too strong for its own good. Most people have already said what i wanted to say about it though there is one thing I do want to mention about it. Bax has slightly less bulk than kyurem which doesn't like all that much but I mention this because...
252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur: 354-416 (95.4 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
this isn't a guaranteed ko which although it is in lele's favor, it shows how bulky it really is. Pair it on Veil teams and it using tera, it snowballs really quickly. Anyways it definitely needs a quickban or at least a suspect test at some point.

Sneasler

I'll admit I haven't used this mon all that much so I might be wrong on a few things. Anyways sneasler is a powerful mon that makes speed control go bye bye. It forces you to need some sort of priority against it which isnt great. Another thing is that the meta is mainly offensive meaning that Sneasler overall has an easier time sweeping. It also bypasses its checks with a tera other than flying to deal with mons like ghold that might try and stop it. It also can just use dire claw to neutralize your check which is the most infuriating part about it. Good news is that it is frail meaning that it takes 2 hits to kill at most even with a defense or spdef boost from seeds. Defensive checks like Lando t can also help weaken it further.
Overall while I do think there should be action against it, it shouldnt be prioritized rn.

Freddy Fazbear(Blood Moon)

When this first released, I thought it was going to be mediocre at best. Oh man i was so wrong. Not only is it ridiculously bulky but also has reliable recovery. Access to moonlight on a bulky hard hitting mon like BM is crazily good and it becomes so much harder to deal with as you cant slowly chip it away and will have to brute force through it which some teams lack that power(mainly bulkier teams). This forces teams to have multiple checks against it and may even run cm blissey(ew). It also has insane trading power. Worst case scenario, you only take one or two mons down which is still good.
Overall, it isnt healthy to the format and needs to get quickbanned if not at least get suspect tested sooner than later.

And finally, the cheese stick itself.


Gholdengo has shown itself to be one of if not THE top pokemon in the tier ever since gambit's ban. Overcentralizing has been prevelant for a long time however this mon is somewhat a special case of this. It's typing and stats are very good however its most strongest and unique trait is its problem which is where the problems come in. This ability not only allows hazard stacking to become even more prominent than it is, it also completely invalidates most of the counterplay against it as you cant cripple it with twave, , toxic when it teratilizes, or encore it making you have to brute force thro it with offense and even that sometimes isn't enough. (Thanks to a certain gimmick...) There's a reason why bulkier teams resort to using stuff like cm blissey(ew) and amnesia clod to even stand a chance.

Another problem also has something to do with how it affects the meta. Mons like Moltres, Ting Lu, etc have only been risen due to the lack of checks against it. Gholdengo can still get around these checks thanks to [redacted] still and so it becomes really hard to deal with consistently. Another problem has to do with its defensive utility. Access to recovery is pretty huge. It allows it to set up and snowballs with np easier.

With all that being said however, I do think it's still "balanced" compared to the others I've mentioned but it still has an unhealthy presence in the meta. While I'm somewhat neutral on the suspect test rn, I do feel like in order for the meta to become healthier long term, I think it'll just have to go sooner or later.

TL:DR: Gholdengo has an unhealthy presence in the meta thanks to the tools it has and its overall meta warping presence. It makes certain archetypes better and certain archetypes weaker. I believe that it should probably go in order to have a healthier meta long term.

(If i had more time, this probably would be a longer post but I got busy. Now theres a suspect test for Gholdengo lol)

Anyways have a great day!

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Yuh moonlight is Never a good recovery. Snow, very common these days, or Rain nerf that recovery af. I dont see a world where ursaluna is Top tier natdex. Hyper voice is better if you re running a bulky set since it's good and spammable, and infiltrates sub that are Too often used to counter it. BM is in no way broken. Plus, anyone may add that it can have many roles with a priority and/or fblast and moonblast but hell bro it is slow and Not tanky on special defense. It has no immunity to toxic, and Don't bring Tera as a toxic immunity every pokemon can Tera poison it's not an argument.

Also dewfew dont tell me that The "usually useful item" eviolite or aguav berry make samutott h look broken

I am beyond convinced this pokemon can run any (usually viable) item and make it look broken

also i think an alolatales ban would be nice, since if HO are broken rn it's mostly because of It. Speed, weather control, hypnosis, encore, freeze-dry, weather-buffed blizzard can make this pokemon a lil bit annoying. It meritates at least a suspect imo

 

[Aesiro13]

also i think an alolatales ban would be nice, since if HO are broken rn it's mostly because of It. Speed, weather control, hypnosis, encore, freeze-dry, weather-buffed blizzard can make this pokemon a lil bit annoying. It meritates at least a suspect imo

I don't think A-Ninetales is exactly ban material. It has to either be fast or bulky, and in the current meta, speed is of the upmost importance. Even in Veil, its low HP means it still won't live 3 attacks, especially against a mon it's weak against (of which there are many). Not to mention Stealth Rock just completely invalidates it.

 

[uppa]

I don't think A-Ninetales is exactly ban material. It has to either be fast or bulky, and in the current meta, speed is of the upmost importance. Even in Veil, its low HP means it still won't live 3 attacks, especially against a mon it's weak against (of which there are many). Not to mention Stealth Rock just completely invalidates it.

On the contrary, I think looking into Ninetales-A as an unhealthy presence could be more justified than, say, a light clay suspect. Natdex is unique in that dragapult, the second-most reliable screens setter, isn't available. If other screens setters, let alone veil setters, aren't as much of a problem, I don't think it's unreasonable to point at Ninetales alone for enabling veil offense teams.

If the general sentiment is that if Ninetales was banned, an equally obnoxious setter would take its place, then I can see why people wouldn't want to take action on that. Personally, I don't see any other setter being nearly as effective as Ninetales atm, but I could be wrong about that.