Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Eve L. Duehr]

With all due disrespect to the bolded:

Not sure why any disrespect is due here? This seems to be a pretty solid analysis - webs and glimstack HO are going to have issues. No opinion appeared to be presented that this was a good or bad thing? It was simply a prediction, and one that I feel will show itself to be fairly accurate.

I agree that broken checks broken is bad, but at no point was it ever implied that webs and glimstack weakening was a bad thing, unless I am mistaken.

I don't support suspecting anything aside from Baxcalibur at the moment. Gholdengos banishment changes the tier ALOT, more than any other mon we've seen go. Let's not act too hasty, only bloodmoon and Baxcalibur are worth being in discussion for the immediate future

I appreciate the wisdom of moving slowly, as Gholdengo's ban may impact the tier in unforseen ways. With that being said, I do think we should continue to discuss mons outside of Baxcalibur and Blood Moon, because like you said, the ban changes the tier a lot, and we may yet see unforseen things come from these mons. Full agreement that Bax and Blood Moon are the biggest issues ATM though.

 

[Slowpoke Fan]

Not sure why any disrespect is due here? This seems to be a pretty solid analysis - webs and glimstack HO are going to have issues. No opinion appeared to be presented that this was a good or bad thing? It was simply a prediction, and one that I feel will show itself to be fairly accurate.

I am disrespecting those team compositions instead of Peap's take, might have fumbled my English there a bit

 

[Eve L. Duehr]

I am disrespecting those team compositions instead of Peap's take, might have fumbled my English there a bit

Ah, my bad! Sorry for the misunderstanding!

Interested to see if any Defiant/Competitive sweepers are gonna take Ghold's place on those teams. Empoleon resurgence? (I know, I know, Empoleon ain't gonna be good in NDOU. But I can dream.)

 

[Epicgamergod69]

so you tellin me you voted to preserve a broken checks broken landscape...? I'm psure you are on council you should know better

Skipping past that, frankly both sneasler and lele are overrated and can simply wait. Lele can't do everything it wants between fightinium, scarf beating offensive and specs breaking fat, imo it's very good but its got flaws like pursuit prone vs mega tar if it ever claims w psychic (which you want to), common things like heatran etc still being around, aegislash likely getting a resurgence and more. Extremely overrated mon, while Sneasler usually has not enough things to win in time stopping it like M-Lop, Dnite, Zapdos, Skeledirge, Aegislash (soon), and others. Let's not jump the gun w this thing.

You know who can do it all? Iron Valiant. But first can we nuke baxcalibur please that mon is just annoying.

Anyway, the best thing to come out of this are the Pokémon who get better. Torn-T is a defogger again, Tapu fini can also defog more reliably and with how common Baxcal is this mons value is higher than ever. Slowbro also gets better, Serperior can also maybe see use as an offensive defogger etc. Other mons to get better include H-Lilligant, Mega Latias, Mega Latios, Buzzwole, Corviknight, Garg, Mega Medicham and more. I don't support suspecting anything aside from Baxcalibur at the moment. Gholdengos banishment changes the tier ALOT, more than any other mon we've seen go. Let's not act too hasty, only bloodmoon and Baxcalibur are worth being in discussion for the immediate future

Personally I never got the issue with ival, it's one of those mons that's versatile and strong but not broken.

 

[Oculars]

Ghol ban will shake up the tier much more significantly then pult ban did





These guys stonks all rise as viable fog punishes now that fog blocking isnt an option

grimm will overtake alolan tails as the most popular screens setter due to taunt access and fog becoming more common vs rapid spin

fat kids are gonna start pushing it and running lefties rather than the 3-4x boots spam weve seen over the past little while


kleavor stocks rise as a mon that can set rocks while forcing out foggers such as torn and zapdos at the same time, along with uturn access to pivot out on their switch if you chose for momentum.

this shitmon should never be seen in OU again as its sole purpose of trying to force out ghol and fog / hax burns maybe is now gone

 

[Magcargo]

Very disappointing results, but I suppose this was bound to happen. Unlike in OU, where I think a better case could be made for Ghold being overbearing, I truly felt it was a great presence in ND as a Landorus-T / Zapdos type Pokemon with great utility that had splashable enough counterplay. Nonetheless, results that one is upset with tend to happen, so I suppose its best to just move on.

If nothing else, Aegislash will get a lot better now, which is nice as that Pokemon is another one of my all time favs. Corv is another Pokemon that is likely to get better, but TBH, between Volcarona, Tapu Koko, and the like, I feel its passivity is a bit of a bigger weakness here than in OU, so IDK how good it will actually be.

Do-nothing teams will get much better as Gholdengo put heavy pressure on these teams with its Nasty Plot set, which had limited viable answers on these styles. That being said, I don't know how much this actually matters as I feel most teams in natdex aren't really built in this way, whereas in OU, building a do-nothing team is a much easier trap to fall into. Manaphy is an annoying mon for passive teams to deal with in OU, but I am not sure if its that big of a deal in this tier.

 

[Moyashi]

this shitmon should never be seen in OU again as its sole purpose of trying to force out ghol and fog / hax burns maybe is now gone

This isn't entirely right. Moltres has good matchups info some notable top mons like Valiant and Sneasler, depending on the spread it runs while being nice into Tusk as well. It's not horrible honestly.

Anyways I'm glad with the suspect results. This notably improves balance which can breath easier now that Ghold is gone, and no longer being pushed into boot stacking teams to avoid being overwhelmed by hazards so easily. This'll especially make garg balance better, but I expect plenty of strategies to pop up.

Lota of mons get better too which should make for a more varied and balanced meta. Mega latis particularly are mons I'm interested in, but stuff like mega Medicham as well as Zap/torn. Some people see Aegislash coming into play, which maybe it could? I'm not as confident given how poor it was last gen.

Lastly, yes. There are still broken and problematic mons running lose. Everyone is sick of baxcalibur and Bloodmoon isn't far behind. I feel similar. I do think we should give the meta a little time to adjust to post Ghold before doing anything though.

Edit: also before I forget but someone please explain how Mega Banette rose while Zama fell and TornT STILL isn't OU by usage. Ladder how.

 

[Nashrock]

I want to do a quick analysis for the meta after this heartbreaking result. I think the general idea now for the tier is to do tons of quickbans and run suspect tests asap.
Nothing to say. Quickban this. There's no reason it can stay.
I prefer a short sus for this guy but I surely understand all the quickban reasoning and it worths that almost for sure.
Ghold was a prominent check for sneasler unless it brings shadow claw/fling/lash out which can still be inconsistent in terms of power and coverage. Now every offensive team needs to think hard about how to deal with this monkey surfing on grassy/elect terrain. At least do a short sus if not qb.
tbh I still think we tested this monster too early when it naturally checks gambit and decent ghosts namely and existed. Now with all the good ghost types left, we should seriously reconsider its place. Both IronPress and Attacking sets can be overwhelming.
Overwhelming power especially with tera. And it works well with .
Not sure where it is going but I can see specs sets with koko+sneasler very terrifying.
Unowndragon I'm curious why nobody mentions this. Without ghold preventing defogging/spinning, yard team has more options when teambuilding and the mon itself is less threatened by rocks.
Everyone keeps saying this finally can defog but tbh I think the defogger slot freed up will be taken by , , and simply because they are better mons for momentum.
now nobody can stop this monster from clicking rapid spin. Be careful.
Annoying stuff. Can get some random 6-0 mus and will surely appreciate a decent steel type leaving.

Defiant/Hazard Keeping Mons: Not sure. I think g-zap and can be good. Probably the penguin too.

 

[Eve L. Duehr]

Do-nothing teams will get much better as Gholdengo put heavy pressure on these teams with its Nasty Plot set, which had limited viable answers on these styles. That being said, I don't know how much this actually matters as I feel most teams in natdex aren't really built in this way, whereas in OU, building a do-nothing team is a much easier trap to fall into. Manaphy is an annoying mon for passive teams to deal with in OU, but I am not sure if its that big of a deal in this tier.

As an avid lover of do-nothing stall, I can confirm we had exactly zero sane options to handle nasty plot sets. Even Clodsire was prone to eating the SpDef drop from Shadow Ball. Next best option was to phaze with dragon tail but no viable mons with the move could safely use it against Gholdengo. So the most reliable option was Calm Mind Blissey, which also worked against Blood Moon. But when Calm Mind Blissey is your best bet, you know the meta isn't in a great place.

I've been playing around in teambuilder today and it feels infinitely better without Gholdengo. It feels a lot more open and I've got some really cool ideas in the works that would not have worked at all had the silly string cheese man stayed.

I'm mostly in agreement with Nashrock here; I think Blood Moon is extremely deserving of a ban. This thing is so stupid that I've looked into using it on stall, even though that's obviously not what it's meant for. It's very hard to think of viable counters to this mon and you can throw it on most teamstyles. It gets stupid trades that no mon should be able to and it doesn't feel fun to play against. I can't see the resulting meta changes from the Gholdengo ban substantially changing this.

How are yall handling tera psychic Lele rn?

 

[Payasiko]

tbh I still think we tested this monster too early when it naturally checks gambit and decent ghosts namely and existed. Now with all the good ghost types left, we should seriously reconsider its place. Both IronPress and Attacking sets can be overwhelming.

Totally agree with this one. Excellent speed tier, its CB set has immediate power, Z wild charge too, but it also can set up with Z howl or ID body press. With fewer ghost types in the tier, Zamazenta will raise quickly. I strongly believe the suspect test for this mon was not done at the right time.

 

[Slowpoke Fan]

Very disappointing results, but I suppose this was bound to happen. Unlike in OU, where I think a better case could be made for Ghold being overbearing, I truly felt it was a great presence in ND as a Landorus-T / Zapdos type Pokemon with great utility that had splashable enough counterplay. Nonetheless, results that one is upset with tend to happen, so I suppose its best to just move on.

If nothing else, Aegislash will get a lot better now, which is nice as that Pokemon is another one of my all time favs. Corv is another Pokemon that is likely to get better, but TBH, between Volcarona, Tapu Koko, and the like, I feel its passivity is a bit of a bigger weakness here than in OU, so IDK how good it will actually be.

Do-nothing teams will get much better as Gholdengo put heavy pressure on these teams with its Nasty Plot set, which had limited viable answers on these styles. That being said, I don't know how much this actually matters as I feel most teams in natdex aren't really built in this way, whereas in OU, building a do-nothing team is a much easier trap to fall into. Manaphy is an annoying mon for passive teams to deal with in OU, but I am not sure if its that big of a deal in this tier.

Aegislash is not going to be remotely good with its speed tier in a metagame where any offensive threat is approaching the speed of sound, but Corviknight is definitely the big winner here: teams will finally be able to lean on it as a defogger (it also subtly improves the viability of Heatran as Gholdengo pushes past the mon anyways while it's one of the few stealth rock setters that Corviknight is deathly afraid of until the latter starts wearing that shiny hat in generation 9 metagames ).

And do-nothing teams generally just have more answers in NatDex, so them being more viable does not really affect the metagame in a negative way. I actually think that this ban improves our answers towards those teams as some of the do-nothing teams that were good in the previous metagame (ThinkCalmly killed one of my runs with a heinous Blissey/Gliscor/Corviknight/Clodsire/Toxapex/Dondozo stall team) match up quite poorly against some of the Pokemon that were previously oppressed by your 'Landorus-T/Zapdos type Pokmeon'.

 

[Chilli Dewd]

OK, I had i till here... I am starting to question about a certain pokemon out there and that question is: Why is this thing allowed in OU? And no, its not Baxcalibur , Its not Sneasler, its not Bloodmoon, the one mon i cannot withstand seeing with an OU label is none other than THIS!

Out of all the possible mons that could of earn the OU status, Mega Banette is NOT one of them. After a whopping 5.90% in usage (thanks a lot pokeaimD) Mega Banette got enough usage that it rose to OU. So what does this do you might wonder? Well simple, Prankster Destiny Bond. Now that does sound pretty appealing for sure, being able to garantee to take a mon out with you SOUNDS like it would be good, especially with monsters like Baxcalibur, Sneasler and Bloodmoon running around. But this pokemon is awful for a few reasons. Number 1: You are not gaining any advantage with it most of the time. Advantage in pokemon is everything, trying to gain the edge on the opponent whether by statusing them or setting up, you want to try and get the upper hand. There are very few instances where you can do that with Mega Banette, since its both slow AND frail for the tier (does the name Ramphardos ring bells to anyone?). The best case would be taking advantage of a slower mon, which could happen considering its admittingly, stupidly high atk of 165 (Exactly the same as Ramphardos). So you can potentially use it as a slow Wallbreaker to take on slow pokes like Toxapex for example, and with the Destiny Bond to take out whatever revenge killer might come out later, sure that can be a valid reason to use it. But then there is Reason number 2: even in the role of a Wallbreaker it has competition with Mega Medicham, who far outclasses Mega Banette with greater atk, much better speed, and it doesn't have the tendency of committing suicide. (This mon was better suited for the OU label, not banette) but even ignoring megas, there is other niche choices like Nidoking and Hooopa U for a Wallbreaker, and even they arent that great in the current meta. And you may be thinking, well what about Destiny Bond? Well that inst exactly gaining advantage, youre just getting rid of one mon, which yeah, you could catch a +6 attack and speed Baxcalibur, or that bax can just switch and dance around your Destiny Bond. Which brings us to Number 3: You are wasting a Mega Slot for a trade. Considering the great Megas available like Mega Lopunny, both Mega Charizard forms, Mega Diancie, Mega Scizor and the previously mentioned Mega Medicham, Banette has a lot of very serious competition for the slot, a slot that its usually wasted by taking itself out. Sure, megas aren't mandatory for a succesful team, so you can technically use this slot without caring about the other ones and be done with it right? However, if you REALLY want to have a slot for a revenge killer, you STILL wouldn't want to use Mega Banette, as it is also outclassed in this role by none other than Ditto. Ditto isnt used very much competetively, since its only niche at handling Hyper Offense teams. but it basically does what Mega Banette wants to do as well, while also not having suicide thoughts. Why bother waste a Mega Slot to sack it order to take out Sneasler, when u can just become the Sneasler itself, and gain all its boost? And all this is only the tip of the iceberg of mons that give Mega Banette competition. If there is anyone to blame for this is between about15guys , and pokeaimmD. About15guys here made an infamous Mega Banette Revive Spam that managed to cacth the eyes of PokeaimmD and he trended it on his channel. Or maybe the blame is Halloween, since it's a spooky mon and might had caught a bit of a Halloween trend, who knows. But if still want to insist on using this mon and cheese Destiny Bond, be my guess. Hope I clarified this ladder's mistake, and hopefully it drops to NDRU, where it belongs. #DontCommitDestinyBond.

 

[ssuperiority]

OK, I had i till here... I am starting to question a certain pokemon out there and question. Why is this thing allowed in OU? And no, its not Baxcalibur , Its not Sneasler, its not Bloodmoon, the one mon i cannot withstand seeing with an OU label is no other than THIS!
View attachment 567319
Out of all the possible mons that could of earn the OU status, Mega Banette is NOT one of them. After a whopping 5.90% in usage (thanks a lot pokeaimD) Mega Banette got enough usage that it rose to OU. So what does this do you might wonder? Well simple, Prankster Destiny Bond. Now that does sound pretty appealing for sure, being able to garantee to take a mon out with out SOUNDS like it would be good, especially with monsters like Baxcalibur, Sneasler and Bloodmoon running around. But this pokemon is awful for a few reasons. Number 1: You not gaining any advantage with it most of the time. Advantage in pokemon is everything, trying to gain the edge on the opposing wheter by statusing them or drtting up, you want to try and get the upper hand. There are very few instances where you can do that with Banette, since its both slow AND frail for the tier (does the name Ramphardos rings bells to anyone?). The best case would be taking advantage of a slower mon, which could happen considering its admitting amazing atk of 165 (Exactly the same as Ramphardos). So can potentially use it as a slow Wallbreaker with the Destiny Bond to take out whatever revnege killer might come, sure that can be a valid reason to use it. But then there is Reason number 2: even in the role of a Wallbreaker it has competition with Mega Medicham, who far outclasses Mega Banette with greater atk, much better speed, and it doesn't have the tendency of comitting suicide. (This mon was better suited for the OU label, not banette) but even ignoring megas, there is other choices like Nidoking and Hooopa U for a Wallbreaker, and even they arent that great in the current meta. And you may be thinking, well what about Destiny Bond? Well that inst exactly gaing advantage, and it also brings us to Number 2: You are wasting a Mega Slot for a trade. Considering the great Megas available like Mgea Lopunny, both Mega Charizard forms, Mega Diancie, Mega Scizor and the previously mentioned Mega Medicham, Banette a lot of very serious competiton for the slot, a slot that its usually wasted by taking itself out. Sure, megas aren't mandatory for a succesful team, so you can technically use this slot without caring about the other ones and be done with it right? However if you want to have a slot for a revenge killer, you STILL wouldn't want to use Mega Banette, as it is also outclassed in this role by none other than Ditto. Ditto isnt used very much competetively, since its only niche at handling Hyper Offense teams. but it basically does what Mega Banette wants to do as well, while also not having suicide thoughts. If there is anyone to blame for this is between sealoo , pokeaimD, and a bit of a glitch where the move Revival Blessing would bring a mega pokemon in its mega form rather than its base, since the move Revival Blessing didn't exist in gen 7 (So yeah, Revive Spam is basically dead). But if still want to insist on using this mon and cheese Destiny Bond, be my guess. Hope I clarified this ladder's mistake, and hopefully it drops to NDRU, where it belongs.

Iirc it gained encore and Poltergeist. Previously it's strongest moves were Gunk Shot and shadow Claw, and now it can encore something predicting a Destiny Bond. Torn, zama, Mega ttar, and glowking should by ou by usage instesd of it and this is clearly a ladder moment

bro why are yall hahaing I didn't even say it was good

 

[ssuperiority]

Has hoopa Unbound gotten better or is this kind of like Mega banette where it sucks but people are using it?

 

[Tanaka's Show]

Has hoopa Unbound gotten better or is this kind of like Mega banette where it sucks but people are using it?

.
People still like its whole CB Tera Dark shenanigans and while it can be annoying at times I still feel that its just not all that amazing especially versus offense and even defensive teams with a bulky (Tera) Fairy can make the user second guess clicking Hyper Space Fury. I haven't played much overall as of late though, so I'm probably not the best to answer this lol

 

[thebestever543]

Aegislash is not going to be remotely good with its speed tier in a metagame where any offensive threat is approaching the speed of sound, but Corviknight is definitely the big winner here: teams will finally be able to lean on it as a defogger (it also subtly improves the viability of Heatran as Gholdengo pushes past the mon anyways while it's one of the few stealth rock setters that Corviknight is deathly afraid of until the latter starts wearing that shiny hat in generation 9 metagames ).

And do-nothing teams generally just have more answers in NatDex, so them being more viable does not really affect the metagame in a negative way. I actually think that this ban improves our answers towards those teams as some of the do-nothing teams that were good in the previous metagame (ThinkCalmly killed one of my runs with a heinous Blissey/Gliscor/Corviknight/Clodsire/Toxapex/Dondozo stall team) match up quite poorly against some of the Pokemon that were previously oppressed by your 'Landorus-T/Zapdos type Pokmeon'.

I think Aegislash will be fine but it is not something people should look at as a replacement for Gholdengo. Gholdengo is truly a one of a kind Pokémon, it has the full package and more. Aegislash still shares the same typing so you’re able to check a lot of threatening Pokémans in the tier. Tapu Lele is most notable, Variants of Ival, Sneasler, Msciz

Has hoopa Unbound gotten better or is this kind of like Mega banette where it sucks but people are using it?

It has surely gotten better. I think it appreciates hazards having a lesser presence in the meta and the rise in fat and even balance. It still struggles with offense of course so it will always feel useless in some mu but I think it’s totally viable and better than people give it credit for. Someone mentioned tera fairy is somehow a counter to this cb? That is a crazy take because even if you tera fairy, you have to play around gunk. Let’s also not forget how hard cb tera dark hits resisted targets. On balance u can come in on stuff like tran, mola, gking and other targets that don’t immediately threaten you. It’s a decent mon, just need to play patient and switch in when an opportunity presents itself. I would say it’s somewhere in the b tier

 

[R8]

I decided to throw random thoughts about random things I tried or saw or thought about in this very unorganised post about mons that are either broken, good, bad or just awful.


These three fuckers need to go, they are broken and stupid, checking them is rly a pain. What I suggest personally is to get a survey out ASAP so a quickban can be justified as soon as possible (reminder that nuking something before the survey is out is possible, if the trends are clear - the SVOU council did that for (iirc) espathra, baxcalibur and ogerpon hearthflame). Honestly though once they are gone maybe teambuilding will be a Super Enjoyable Activity to accomplish with all your family and friends, unless valiant or whatever else a bit too happy about the gholdengo ban walks in to ruin the fun.


Do you think Tapu Lele might be the best pokemon in the tier right now? I honestly think it might be. Choice scarf lele is prob an even better cleaner now that ghold is rotting in tiering hell, especially since all the steels left are prone to chip and generally don't have reliable recovery (besides like corv and celesteela), not like they'd enjoy getting hit by Focus Blast anyway. Of course tera specs is prob scary

I slapped this together, it seemed ok, maybe the tusk should be a glisc idk, skarm is whirlwind to cope vs sneasler (it used to be celesteela)


Also Alomomola is soooooooo good please help me I can't stop using it it literally scouts everything ever, it's the most free lead vs a bunch of team and it feels like some teams are actually "weak" to it and just don't know what to do against it lol - it also makes stuff like cleanings endgames from opposing scarfers sometimes very difficult, which is cool. Wish+Flip Turn is crazy but honestly maybe you could drop wish? I don't click it that much tbh, although when I click it it provides absolutely great value


Maybe this pokemon is ass TBH. Aside from being annoying to most spikers of the tier + clicking wisp and knock off (broken), I kinda feel like it doesn't do that much. Of course having 8 pps is annoying, but it's not even the main issue imo: even in fatter matchups, where this pokemon is supposed to be the big cool guy it just doesn't seem to do that much. OK it blanks the not that common chansey and skarm, and in return clef/glisc sit on it forever (although glisc alone I think doesn't have enough eq pps?) + in super long games being neutral to rocks actually is tough, and this pokemon just sometimes felt super allergic to chip (if you ever played msab in a mttar matchup you can notice how annoying even these 6%s can be). I just think you can just spend your slot for a mon that gives you much more.

()
This mon sucks. But why? I toyed a bit with this mon who looked actually ok on paper: 108 is not a bad speed tier at all, and switching into it actually seems to be a pain - which still seems to be true on testing. However you actually threaten out that much (besides I guess heatran with the threat of earth power) so in practice it kinda felt like you need to push shit in range first, and it doesn't seem to check that much in general, so I guess it's a decent mid game breaker but... honestly it just felt like a worse specs valiant, so prob just use that. It might be a bit viable/usable since at least it's less annoyed by pex, but I decided to not bother with this thing anymore


I don't really have much thoughts about this mon besides that it is a fake check to sneasler unless you run something stupid like iron defense or psycho cut

 

[Oculars]

Has hoopa Unbound gotten better or is this kind of like Mega banette where it sucks but people are using it?

Hoopa-U is one of the only mons that can instantly force progress as most other breakers have been banned cause of tera, stall teams can easily lose to either the specs or band variants and the assault vest set is very good into fat/balance tera letting it avoid the insta death from uturn makes it a much more valuable mon in gen9, last gen it would instantly give up momentum every time it gets a kill but now u have the option to tera poison on the uturn and instantly delete whatever they try and go into as well.

 

[hidin]

Made a video with my thoughts on the Gholdengo ban, how I feel about the results, and what should be done in the future. Watch if you're interested!

 

[Moyashi]

Just wanted to say that I second R8's post regarding a certain trio. All three of Bax, BM and Sneasler are broken (or in Sneasler 's case, bullshit) and have far too limited counterplay.


CM sets simply put too much strain on building and gameplay to prevent it from claiming multiple KOs. The high longevity it has in conjunction with high immediate power forces very awkward plays once it gets in, which isn't hard to do. There's not enough defensive counterplay, and while offensive counterplay does exist, the bulk of this mon often makes it a multi pokemon effort.


Even without screens, the threat of this mon is too much. Both SD and DD sets are very potent, and there is a frustrating shortlist of reliable responses to switch into it, and the natural bulk makes even killing it difficult without priority. Said priority becomes less effective if it's behind screens, which I think is an aspect that makes this mon more broken than it already is.


A HO superstar and a dishonest "cheese" mon. Even discounting Dire Claw hax, I think it's simply too strong and fast when factoring its classic SD unburden sets. There is basically non-existent offensive counterplay outside priority and it's still able to blow holes in defensive teams at +2, with dire claw allowing potential rng cheese. It contributes nothing to the tier and IMO just makes it worse.

I think they all need to go and their absence would greatly improve the tier.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

As there is No apparent good core threads, i'll post there.


pretty nice defensive core: AV ttar + wishpass alomola. this core is very nice, as nothing can break through this core without difficulty But strong strong steel types that can't progress that much if alomomola isn't tera already(fairy Or poison are optimal imo ad they Give fighting, bug, and more résistances to ttar. Alomomla itself gives ttar healing as this is the main thing that ttar lacks. i'll probably build something around this core next week/this week-end to Give a more precise approach if needed

 

[Eve L. Duehr]

pretty nice defensive core: AV ttar + wishpass alomola. this core is very nice, as nothing can break through this core without difficulty But strong strong steel types that can't progress that much if alomomola isn't tera already(fairy Or poison are optimal imo ad they Give fighting, bug, and more résistances to ttar. Alomomla itself gives ttar healing as this is the main thing that ttar lacks. i'll probably build something around this core next week/this week-end to Give a more precise approach if needed

Really cool core! I've been considering a sand team focusing around stacking various weird forms of chip damage for a while and had not yet considered AV ttar. Might build off this tonight or tomorrow!

These three fuckers need to go, they are broken and stupid, checking them is rly a pain. What I suggest personally is to get a survey out ASAP so a quickban can be justified as soon as possible (reminder that nuking something before the survey is out is possible, if the trends are clear - the SVOU council did that for (iirc) espathra, baxcalibur and ogerpon hearthflame). Honestly though once they are gone maybe teambuilding will be a Super Enjoyable Activity to accomplish with all your family and friends, unless valiant or whatever else a bit too happy about the gholdengo ban walks in to ruin the fun.

Hard agree with R8 here. I fully support the idea of quickbanning all three. Ursaluna forces too many dumb trades since there are almost no viable switchins, Bax is stupid strong (shut down by stall chad but having exactly one counter isn't healthy), and Sneasler relies on Dire Claw jank to beat its counters.

I think the common theme with these three is that there are very few, if any, reliable counters to these mons. Sure they can be checked, but as far as counters go, there are very, very few, and that does not feel healthy to me.

Assuming they are all quickbanned, what do you all expect to see from the meta? This isn't the beginning to a broken checks broken argument, but a legitimate question as to where we will be as a tier? Will we be in a good place to handle whatever the next DLC throws at us?

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

I expect to see the rise of rapid spin users soon, a fewer amount of Koko screens teams, And mostly alolatales back in ru. But like It's five a.m. at mine i'm a bit tired so don't believe me word for word

 

[Epicgamergod69]

QB QB QB
We need some,

So first we have the weasel itself sneasler... This thing is a monster, it shreds through teams after an sd and doesn't have its stabs walled by the most common mon in the tier anymore.

Second we have Freddy fazbear Ursaluna-blood moon... This thing easily gets up a cm or two with it's incredible bulk while healing damage off with moon like then desomating a team.

Last we have Godzilla Baxcalibur this guy is insanely bulky under the combination of snow and veil talking numerous hits from several mons while setting up namely many bullet punches from scizor-mega then swords or dragon dancing then laying waste to a team with its astrononical attack

Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.

 

[MajorHurricane]

I'm totally on board with Sneasler going, Dire Claw is a stupid move and even if we nuke that move, Sneasler still has Gunk Shot and PJab. As it's been said before, counterplay once unburden is activated is nearly dependent on priority, which is a no-go when you combine it with Lele. Bax is just as bad to deal with especially with the common AVeil Ninetales-A Bax cores going around right now. Loaded Dice and SD/DD + Icicle Spear is just too damn powerful and behind screens counterplay is nonexistant. As for Blood Moon, verdict's out for this one, you could argue there's too much offensive counterplay for it to be broken, but it is certainly a force to be reckoned with, but to me much less than the other two. If it were all up to me I'd QB The first two and probably suspect test the bear.