heavy agree w this and a bit of a hot take but i wouldn't totally mind seeing genesect (maybe burn or whatever) test either personallyPS: Retest<-- this guy. It was one vote away from being unbanned and in my opinion, wasn't really broken at all. I think it's a low priority task, but it's worth another chance after everything else has been dealt with.
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Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Nashrock
- Start date
This is almost exactly what I put. I agree, this meta finally seems to be settling down post tera and moon, and almost nothing feels broken. I did, however, place volc a little higher because I think it is worth a suspect, even if I'm not entirely sure it's broken. I don't agree with the deoxys part though, it doesn't provide anything to the metagame and just adds yet another broken setup+z move to the list of mons to prepare for. Not something the meta needs.Oh look, a new survey just popped up! Here are my answers.Enjoyment: 9
I personally like the state the format is in right now. I'd say it's close to being perfect. Nothing feels too overwhelming at all. There's some annoying stuff out there like Gliscor and Kyurem but they are beatable with a good strategy. I don't think I've ever had this much fun playing National Dex before, banning Tera was the best thing to ever happen to this format.
Competitiveness: 8
I put competitiveness at an 8 because it's Pokemon. It won't be a perfectly competitive game and there will always be techniques to try and cheese a win. Sleep moves are the first thing that comes to mind when I think of cheesy mechanics. I don't know if a suspect test on Sleep as a whole is possible, but I think it would be nice. Sleep Clause is okay, but sometimes you can get robbed by some gimmicky Z-Hypnosis set or whatever. Maybe this is just my ladder player bias coming out, but I hate running into stuff using Z-Hypnosis, it's just gimmicky cheese that forces you to keep something in the back as Sleep fodder, and it's even worse when the Hypnosis misses on your Sleep sack and they capitalize on that and set up on you anyways. Luckily cheesy Sleep gimmicks are extremely uncommon, and stuff like Spore and Yawn have limited distribution and aren't too hard to play around, though Sleep in general is quite uncompetitive and I wouldn't mind seeing it go. Everything other than that is perfect to me, which is why I put competitiveness at 8.
Kyurem: 1
Kyurem is annoying but not unreasonable to play around. I quite like its presence (mostly because it absolutely trolls Alomomola) and how it can punish overly passive plays. Kyurem can force the opponent to act more aggressively, which I think is nice as it allows progress to be made more easily. It has very exploitable flaws such as its Stealth Rocks weakness as well as struggling to slot all the moves it wants. Sub + Roost is annoying but it can be worn down and punished due to its lackluster Speed and constant need to find openings to heal. Dragon Dance sets are also very cool and something I really want to use more.
Gholdengo: 1
Gholdengo is incredibly strong and incredibly annoying, but it's weighed down by the incredibly exploitable Speed stat that it has. It's slower than many offensive Pokemon in the format, and even some defensive Pokemon. Nasty Plot sets struggle to deal with more aggressive teams, but tend to excel against slower teams. Even then, many defensive teams can probably afford to slot Alomomola, Kyurem, or Tusk to handle it. Gholdengo is great, but definitely not overwhelming.
Alomomola: 1
I hate this fish with every fiber of my being, that being said I gave it a 1. I seriously despise this thing and how easily it can shrug off pretty much any attack in existence, but I have to appreciate its defensive qualities. AV Alomomola helps quell a lot of the strong Special Attackers we have in the format like Charizard Y, Gholdengo, and Volcarona, all while pivoting out to something that can deal with them. But it can be worn down by hazards and constant chip. Wish Pass sets are equally irritating, but are much weaker on the Sp. Def side. Alomomola is also incredibly prone to Knock Off, and that move is incredibly prevalent in National Dex. The presence of Ogerpon Wellspring also means that clicking Flip Turn isn't so free as one might think. As much as I hate going up against this Pokemon, I think it's a healthy presence overall and shouldn't ever be considered for tiering action.
Volcarona: 2
I could never really get behind the Volcarona hate, if you scroll up you can see my opinions on Volcarona. Nevertheless, I gave it a 2 because I can understand why people hate this thing and I understand its strengths. I personally think it's totally fine though, and that the arguments against Volcarona are a bit exaggerated. To use the funny Z set you need like two slots dedicated to removal, and if that fails then Volcarona takes an agonizing 50% from Stealth Rocks. HDB sets are nothing new either, they're strong but beatable unless the Volcarona has the perfect answer to your team's core. We've dealt with Volcarona for generations now, I don't really think it's any crazier than it was before.
PS: Retest
The way I see it, if a Pokemon doesn't really hurt teambuilding or playstyles in any significant way, then there's no good reason for it to be kept locked up in Ubers. I thought Deoxys was totally fine when it was introduced, if you see otherwise than feel free to vote against it. People (including myself) were rightfully angry when Deoxys got shelved after such a close vote. So I think a Deoxys retest would be nice after we knock down everything that people mentioned on the survey. If it turns out to be broken after Dragapult and Moon were removed then so be it, I think it wouldn't hurt to try it out once more, though.
The metagame is not the same as it was when Deo-S was originally suspected, which means new justification should be required for it to be let into the tier again. You don't get to skip this part of the debate because a vote from nearly a year ago was close. Nothing is owed to you at this point, especially if the sole reason for doing so is essentially just saying "let's see what happens" and people more or less admitting it provides little positives to the metagame. If we are going by this logic, this is just tiering for fun to pass the time at best and borderline terrible precedence at worst (hey Mega Blastoise, Zygarde, and Zacian didn't get a fair shake either, let's test them and see what happens!!). It is not council's job to alleviate people's boredom with the tier.
This is fair as the vote was a little under year ago. The meta has changed quite a bit since then and I'm more than happy to accept the meta we have now. It's probably just personal bias but I am a little frustrated that a Pokemon that should've been unbanned based on tiering policy got shelved and hasn't been looked at again. This isn't something that I want to happen "for fun", it's something that I think should happen based on the awkward events of the first Deoxys test.
Anyways, to shift the topic to something more current... how do we feel about
Gholdengo? I personally gave it a 1 on the survey but I've seen quite a lot of people gripe about it. So, all you Gholdengo haters (or lovers), what makes you loathe (or love) this Pokemon? I personally like how easy it is to slot on your team and how it can be a good offensive and defensive piece at the same time. I've also been experimenting with Electrium Z sets to annihilate AV Alomomola who gets way too comfortable switching into Gholdengo.
Jack of all trades Mon that has no walls (except from clod who is bad rn except on stall). ghost/fighting coverage / modest steel z pops everything. A lot of faster mons either can’t switch in repeatedly or just don’t wanna trade with it if they switch into a plot so you gotta pivot in your ghold killer but literally nothing consistently pivots on Gholdengo except av mola.This is fair as the vote was a little under year ago. The meta has changed quite a bit since then and I'm more than happy to accept the meta we have now. It's probably just personal bias but I am a little frustrated that a Pokemon that should've been unbanned based on tiering policy got shelved and hasn't been looked at again. This isn't something that I want to happen "for fun", it's something that I think should happen based on the awkward events of the first Deoxys test.
Anyways, to shift the topic to something more current... how do we feel about
tbf ariados wasn't saying outright that this should be done out of boredom, but that it's worth a look once the current slate of controversial mons is addressed. to my knowledge, NDOU roster has not changed all that much since the end of 2024, though obviously the meta has somewhat warped around a handful of mons.
the particulars of the "why" would not even be relevant right now til we see if there is an upcoming suspect on one of the survey mons, which could reshape the tier in its entirety, should anything change. the statement on deo-s reads more to me as a passing comment than an entitled whine, is all.
personally, i put something like 8 enjoyment 6 competitive and 3's across the board on mons but honestly i think i did this in haste. i'd bump up competitiveness and bump down the suspicious mon scoring. i like the tier overall though i understand the frustrations for sure.
Survey time eh? I'm bored and want to yap so.
1/5
Both of these are fine to me. Gholdengo limiting hazard removal schtick matters alot less without tera, and while this mon is amazing, it's not some broken mon you can't handle. Speed is just alright, and checks are prevalent. AV H-Samu, Ting Lu, Zard-Y, Bulkarona, Molt, Sp def Heal Bell Dnite, etc. All of these are quality picks in the tier, and do a nice job of naturally checking Gholdengo without really going out of your way for it. Kyurem meanwhile is, from what I can tell, complained about for farming balance... no shit? Like, subroost kyurem has been doing this for years so I don't see the issue with this. Sure, its tough for balance, god forbid a style has flaws. Last thing we need in life is Alomomola users being MORE privileged. It's not unbeatable for balance teams, even with HP fire sets teched for Mega Scizor. There's other options. Mega TTar, AV Melmetal, Hoopa-U, SpDef Corv, etc. And Kyurem can't do everything it wants to at once or anything. It's either losing to Scizors, or vulnerable to status. It's limiting, but good.
1/5
Both of these are significantly more annoying pokemon overall, but they are still fine. Volcarona ended my NDPL tenure by being fckin HP Rock and blasting my teammate, and I'd still say its fine. There's a volcarona set for every MU, but I feel like this has been the case for ages? Even beyond the Dragonites, Tankchomps, Moltres, and others, I feel like we could be paying Scarf Protean Greninja a bit more respect. Toolkit is sky high and Scarf Protgren isn't bothered by the protean nerf. Switcheroo, Dark Pulse, HP Fire, Gunk, Rock slide, Scald, Extrasensory, Low Kick, skys the limit. Overall it's like, general Volcarona performances I just think this thing is fine. Alomomola is an annoying piece of shit that mouth-breathers just love, but its not banworthy. Sure, its brainlessly good but its not the kinda mon I'd ever ban. Not much to really say I think the stuff that beats Alo is self-explanitory.
So, then with four Pokemon at 1/5, where does that leave us?
I think we can revisit this one. Last time, it was banned off I think a 1-2 vote margain, and that was back when the number threshhold was wrong. If it had've been the system of 50%, it would be legal right now. I've discussed that w Runo consistently in the relevant PR thread so I won't dwell on it, instead I'll focus on justifying its presence. Firstly, the speed. Being able to be faster than Volcarona at +1 is a massive boon, and forces this thing to get a second dance, something it shouldn't be able to procure unless the pilot fcked something up. Soft check to Zamazenta never hurt anybody either. Really, its main benefit is to open up offenses to not get barreled over by setup sweepers.
As for checks/why its fine, I mainly point to its lack of immediate power. Sure, after an NP with Z-Moves tis a threat. But you gotta get that NP to begin with, and even then there's coverage woes. Relying on focus blast without a Z-Move sucks, you're pmuch hamstrung into Psychic move, Focus Blast, and shadow ball. Any deviations from this to cover say, Mega Scizor results in shortcomings vs other things. Obviously there's other sets, expanding force memes and eject pack offense stuff. But there's aren't hugely broken sets, and they are handled by priority users or just.. not dying to these unboosted moves. And this ignores the bulk problem. As a suicide lead it's obviously great but idt it's leagues better than stuff like Custap Ting Lu, Glimmora or whatever.
Really, I think the mon is just fine, and it does bring stuff to the table, and for the most part, it's checks overlap with Lele well as it is. Suffice to say, it is checked naturally. Considering its been a year, and the vote was shrouded in PR nonsense, a second glance is worth checking in on.
1/5
Both of these are fine to me. Gholdengo limiting hazard removal schtick matters alot less without tera, and while this mon is amazing, it's not some broken mon you can't handle. Speed is just alright, and checks are prevalent. AV H-Samu, Ting Lu, Zard-Y, Bulkarona, Molt, Sp def Heal Bell Dnite, etc. All of these are quality picks in the tier, and do a nice job of naturally checking Gholdengo without really going out of your way for it. Kyurem meanwhile is, from what I can tell, complained about for farming balance... no shit? Like, subroost kyurem has been doing this for years so I don't see the issue with this. Sure, its tough for balance, god forbid a style has flaws. Last thing we need in life is Alomomola users being MORE privileged. It's not unbeatable for balance teams, even with HP fire sets teched for Mega Scizor. There's other options. Mega TTar, AV Melmetal, Hoopa-U, SpDef Corv, etc. And Kyurem can't do everything it wants to at once or anything. It's either losing to Scizors, or vulnerable to status. It's limiting, but good.
1/5
Both of these are significantly more annoying pokemon overall, but they are still fine. Volcarona ended my NDPL tenure by being fckin HP Rock and blasting my teammate, and I'd still say its fine. There's a volcarona set for every MU, but I feel like this has been the case for ages? Even beyond the Dragonites, Tankchomps, Moltres, and others, I feel like we could be paying Scarf Protean Greninja a bit more respect. Toolkit is sky high and Scarf Protgren isn't bothered by the protean nerf. Switcheroo, Dark Pulse, HP Fire, Gunk, Rock slide, Scald, Extrasensory, Low Kick, skys the limit. Overall it's like, general Volcarona performances I just think this thing is fine. Alomomola is an annoying piece of shit that mouth-breathers just love, but its not banworthy. Sure, its brainlessly good but its not the kinda mon I'd ever ban. Not much to really say I think the stuff that beats Alo is self-explanitory.
So, then with four Pokemon at 1/5, where does that leave us?
I think we can revisit this one. Last time, it was banned off I think a 1-2 vote margain, and that was back when the number threshhold was wrong. If it had've been the system of 50%, it would be legal right now. I've discussed that w Runo consistently in the relevant PR thread so I won't dwell on it, instead I'll focus on justifying its presence. Firstly, the speed. Being able to be faster than Volcarona at +1 is a massive boon, and forces this thing to get a second dance, something it shouldn't be able to procure unless the pilot fcked something up. Soft check to Zamazenta never hurt anybody either. Really, its main benefit is to open up offenses to not get barreled over by setup sweepers.
As for checks/why its fine, I mainly point to its lack of immediate power. Sure, after an NP with Z-Moves tis a threat. But you gotta get that NP to begin with, and even then there's coverage woes. Relying on focus blast without a Z-Move sucks, you're pmuch hamstrung into Psychic move, Focus Blast, and shadow ball. Any deviations from this to cover say, Mega Scizor results in shortcomings vs other things. Obviously there's other sets, expanding force memes and eject pack offense stuff. But there's aren't hugely broken sets, and they are handled by priority users or just.. not dying to these unboosted moves. And this ignores the bulk problem. As a suicide lead it's obviously great but idt it's leagues better than stuff like Custap Ting Lu, Glimmora or whatever.
Really, I think the mon is just fine, and it does bring stuff to the table, and for the most part, it's checks overlap with Lele well as it is. Suffice to say, it is checked naturally. Considering its been a year, and the vote was shrouded in PR nonsense, a second glance is worth checking in on.
The HP Rock Volcarona clan is growing... Soon, Moltres will shudder in fear at our numbers.
Anyways, I totally agree with what you said here. Volcarona's antics have been going on for ages. Similarly, we have been able to deal with it for ages. There's nothing new here. There is a Volcarona set for and if you are unlucky enough to run into a Volcarona set that beats your core, then that's just unfortunate, nothing else to it. Numerous Pokemon have been slotting techs to break past common counters, and I don't see how Volcarona is much of an exception. If an Urshifu suddenly unleashes an Electric Z Thunder Punch and eradicates your Slowbro, it's frustrating, but you can accept that you got matchup fished and move on. Besides, with the astronomically high presence of AV Alomomola, it feels harder to run Volcarona in your teams to begin with.
Anyways, to shift the topic to something more current... how do we feel about
Like previously mentioned by kidd0s, overall, it's a pretty much do it all level of versatility mon that's able to withstand many important hits flying around in the tier while simultaneously, (moreso on paper than in practice imo) be able to win pretty much all of it's checks mid-long term except for maybe
and 
Is it the best mon in the tier? Duh.
Is it broken? Can't help but agree.
Is it unhealthy for the tier? Personally, no. It brings way more good than bad to the tier overall, especially in it's general hit taking, which is pretty good, and enhances the whole versatility thing by a thousand, but far from overwhelmingly bulky, nothing that NDOU can't (and already did) adapt to.
Additionally, besides being one of the main reasons hazard stack is good (would otherwise be a pretty mid playstyle i feel?), it's specifically the best and most splashable
check, which is particularly cool because otherwise it'd have a noticably bigger grip on how the meta'd look now.Unrelated note: it's fun to play and play against too.
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survey
Enjoyment: 6
the meta is hella boring atm, tech seems unusable and overall building seems hella repetitive having to use the same pokemon time and time again to blanket big threats.
Competitiveness: 7
the meta seems fairly competitive at the moment just very stale, the only problem i have is different gimmicky pokemon entering the spotlight like ceruledge, polteageist, porygon-z and other bad pokemon that just matchup fish and use cheesy strategies like strength sap cursed body or endure z/weakness policy just undermine the competitiveness in my opinion. Also i do think z moves undermind comp but im getting into that after.
Kyurem: 1
this mon can be annoying sometimes trying to guess sets whether it be sub roost or hp fire but overall i think the mon is hella balanced like it has been since gen 8 nat dex. Kyurem also gets assaulted by most offensive structures but apart from that i think having a mon like kyurem to destroy mola and gliscor is beneficial for the metagame. Sometimes expert belt/z move can be hard to check but at the end of the day its pretty easy to outplay with stealth rocks ect.
Gholdengo: 4
i think gholdengo is hella broken and is very unforgiving if you guess the wrong z move thats on it especially since the mon has like 1 blanket check being clodsire who struggles heavily in the meta and probably still cant beat modest z steel ghold. The guessing game between ghost and steel z I believe is unhealthy for the meta. Not to mention this mon enables a lot of other pokemon in the meta to do naughty things, Av mola has getting a lot of negative feedback within the community and i believe the reason people are running av in the first place is to role compress something thats able to beat the broken volcarona and gholdengo. This mon also enables gliscor through corv being stunted and defog on it no longer being viable without extra help from teammates that get withered by gliscor. I also dont like how easy it is to set up with this thing due to it stonewalling every support mon in the meta punishing blue collared hard workers like ferrothorn, clefable ect for being born.
Alomomola: 1
this mon can be hella annoying but things like pon, and kyurem put it in its place. In terms of sets, i believe the wish tect one is fine in the meta not broken at all, its hella passive and fairly easy to outplay. In terms of the av one it gets withered down by status + hazards for the game and is forced to run moves like liquidation and or aqua jet for volcarona in order to beat it making it worse outside of checking volc.
Volcarona: 5
I really dont like this mon at all, it forces too much teambuilding pressure for a mon that doesnt provide much to the meta. It has a set for everything and predicting a wrong set on this mon is extremely unforgiving. Even these so called checks need to run niche moves that it wouldnt normally run in order to beat it, examples: Alomomola running liquidation, and even aqua jet at times with the sole purpose of being able to beat volcarona. Brave bird on moltres is the only set that can viably beat volcarona with its sole purpose to beat volcarona and do nothing else. Taunt on defensive heatran, this mon would always like to run toxic/wisp but is limited due to the only set being able to beat volc is taunt.
These pokemon are being forced on many teams to beat volcarona with it not doing much outside of it due to the moves that are being forced on them.
Something id like to see suspect tested.
z moves
ngl i see a lot of people turning a blind eye to z moves when they are clearly unhealthy in this meta, the whole reason gholdengo and volcarona are being brought up for suspect testing is because of the mechanic, not to mention the several other mons that are banned due to it that would otherwise be contributing to the meta as shown in similar meta's to national dex. Z moves also bring upon some of the worst teambuilding restrictions of all time having to prep for z volc, ghold, dnite, kyurem, bolt, lele, koko, not to mention all of the other threats in the tier outside of z moves, a z move ban would alleviate a lot of pressure off teambuilding and make the meta more competitive without mons just being able to setup once and claim a free kill.
Enjoyment: 6 the meta is hella boring atm, tech seems unusable and overall building seems hella repetitive having to use the same pokemon time and time again to blanket big threats.
Competitiveness: 7the meta seems fairly competitive at the moment just very stale, the only problem i have is different gimmicky pokemon entering the spotlight like ceruledge, polteageist, porygon-z and other bad pokemon that just matchup fish and use cheesy strategies like strength sap cursed body or endure z/weakness policy just undermine the competitiveness in my opinion. Also i do think z moves undermind comp but im getting into that after.
Kyurem: 1this mon can be annoying sometimes trying to guess sets whether it be sub roost or hp fire but overall i think the mon is hella balanced like it has been since gen 8 nat dex. Kyurem also gets assaulted by most offensive structures but apart from that i think having a mon like kyurem to destroy mola and gliscor is beneficial for the metagame. Sometimes expert belt/z move can be hard to check but at the end of the day its pretty easy to outplay with stealth rocks ect.
Gholdengo: 4 i think gholdengo is hella broken and is very unforgiving if you guess the wrong z move thats on it especially since the mon has like 1 blanket check being clodsire who struggles heavily in the meta and probably still cant beat modest z steel ghold. The guessing game between ghost and steel z I believe is unhealthy for the meta. Not to mention this mon enables a lot of other pokemon in the meta to do naughty things, Av mola has getting a lot of negative feedback within the community and i believe the reason people are running av in the first place is to role compress something thats able to beat the broken volcarona and gholdengo. This mon also enables gliscor through corv being stunted and defog on it no longer being viable without extra help from teammates that get withered by gliscor. I also dont like how easy it is to set up with this thing due to it stonewalling every support mon in the meta punishing blue collared hard workers like ferrothorn, clefable ect for being born.
Alomomola: 1this mon can be hella annoying but things like pon, and kyurem put it in its place. In terms of sets, i believe the wish tect one is fine in the meta not broken at all, its hella passive and fairly easy to outplay. In terms of the av one it gets withered down by status + hazards for the game and is forced to run moves like liquidation and or aqua jet for volcarona in order to beat it making it worse outside of checking volc.
Volcarona: 5I really dont like this mon at all, it forces too much teambuilding pressure for a mon that doesnt provide much to the meta. It has a set for everything and predicting a wrong set on this mon is extremely unforgiving. Even these so called checks need to run niche moves that it wouldnt normally run in order to beat it, examples: Alomomola running liquidation, and even aqua jet at times with the sole purpose of being able to beat volcarona. Brave bird on moltres is the only set that can viably beat volcarona with its sole purpose to beat volcarona and do nothing else. Taunt on defensive heatran, this mon would always like to run toxic/wisp but is limited due to the only set being able to beat volc is taunt.
These pokemon are being forced on many teams to beat volcarona with it not doing much outside of it due to the moves that are being forced on them.
Something id like to see suspect tested.
ngl i see a lot of people turning a blind eye to z moves when they are clearly unhealthy in this meta, the whole reason gholdengo and volcarona are being brought up for suspect testing is because of the mechanic, not to mention the several other mons that are banned due to it that would otherwise be contributing to the meta as shown in similar meta's to national dex. Z moves also bring upon some of the worst teambuilding restrictions of all time having to prep for z volc, ghold, dnite, kyurem, bolt, lele, koko, not to mention all of the other threats in the tier outside of z moves, a z move ban would alleviate a lot of pressure off teambuilding and make the meta more competitive without mons just being able to setup once and claim a free kill.
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