OU National Dex - On the Radar [update post #20]

Not open for further replies.
Hello Party people
After the recent Dugtrio and Genesect bans, the National Dex council has decided to continue addressing problematic / potentially problematic aspects of the metagame. With discussion around various aspects of the metagame happening in metagame discussion, the VR, and in the live chat channels, we wanted a thread where we can directly address these issues and monitor them much more closely and use the posts in this thread when discussing potential action moving forwards.

:sm/zygarde: :sm/metagross-mega: :sm/blastoise-mega:
Zygarde has been at the forefront of the metagame for a while thanks to its ability to easily bypass the very few defensive checks it has with Toxic or Glare. Choice Band Zygarde is one of the most prominent wallbreakers in the metagame, with only a few solid defensive answers, of which the most common are Tangrowth, physically defensive Clefable, and Slowbro, all of which can be overwhelmed if crippled by one of the aforementioned status conditions. Dragon Dance variants, on the other hand, are some of the most threatning sweepers in the meta due to Zygardes respectable bulk letting it find many set-up oppurtunites, as well as its ability to muscle past its would-be checks with its diverse options like Z moves, Toxic, or Outrage. This isnt to mention that plethora of other, albeit, less popular Zygarde sets such as Coil, Dtail, RestTalk which all have different checks and add to Zygardes immense set diversity, making it incredibly difficult to prepare for in the teambuilder, as well as play around in a battle.

Mega Metagross is another Pokemon which has been brought up as an issue due to its very limited defensive counterplay options. Unlike Zygarde, Mega Metagross has very little variety in its set due to how effective its one set is. Similarly to Zygarde though, Mega Metagross's ability to overwhelm its answers is what is seen as an issue - a timely Meteor Mash attack raise or Zen Headbutt flinch can very easily snowball into a Mega Metagross sweep because of how few answers it has, meaning that having a chance to bypass the one defensive check your opponent has can make it almost impossible to deal with. Slowbro is forced to spam Slack Off versus Mega Metagross, which gives it many options to Paralyse and ultimatley beat it with Thunder Punch. Physically defensive Tangrowth cannot switch into Metagross if it has got an Attack raise from Meteor Mash. Rotom-H can be killed by a Zen Headbutt after a Meteor Mash Attack raise, or flinched to death by Zen Headbutt itself etc. Mega Metagross is also incredibly difficult to revenge kill due to its respectable bulk, meaning Pokemon such as Protean Greninja, Choice Scarf Hydreigon, non-Choice Specs Dragapult, Bisharp, and Mega Lopunny need Mega Metagross to be chipped before they can kill it. One thing to note is how many checks are shared between Zygarde and Mega Metagross which allows them to make an extremely effective core capable of wearind each others checks down. Zygarde can also often force Toxic onto Tangrowth and Slowbro, which makes Mega Metagross able to deal with them easily.

Mega Blastoise is a Pokemon that has been getting a lot of attention recently due to its ability to flat out sweep unprepared teams extremely easily. Mega Blastoise's solid bulk gives it many oppurtunities to set-up with Shell Smash, and once it has set-up there is very little that can take a hit from it thanks to its incredible Special Attack stat coupled with Mega Launcher. Pokemon such as Toxapex and Assault Vest Tangrowth can live one hit from Mega Blastoise provided they are completley healthy. This is where Mega Blastoises's affinity to Hyper Offense teams comes from, as they are able to support Mega Blastoise by being able to reliablly keep up multiple layers of hazards, allowing Mega Blastoise to more easily sweep through teams. This leaves very few defensive answers to a Mega Blastoise, with only Tapu Fini able to take it on consistently with entry hazards up. Apart from Tapu Fini, offensive counterplay is the best way to deal with Mega Blastoise, as the defense drops from Shell Smash allow it to be revenge killed more easily, however, due to its high speed when boosted allowing it to outspeed every relevant Choice Scarf user sans Greninja and Ditto, priority is typically the best way to revenge kill it. However even at -1, Mega Blastoise must be worn down a fair amount before Zygarde's Choice Band Extreme Speed, Mega Lopunny's Fake Out + Quick Attack, or Bisharp's Sucker Punch can kill it, which often forces the opponent to attack Mega Blastoise as it sets up in order to be able to revenge kill it later.

Please use this thread to bring up anything you feel may add to the discussion on the above 3 Pokemon in the National Dex metagame. Please avoid one liners and posts without any real content or posts about any Pokemon not mentioned above for now. Also please no asking to unban Ubers in this thread, Funbot will smite you.
Before this thread gets flooded with outcries of a Mega Blastoise suspect, I want to point the blame at the elephant in the tier.

Whereas Mega Metagross and Mega Blastoise on their own are checkable to an extent with the likes of Tangrowth, Rotom-Heat, Ferrothorn and Tapu Fini from a teambuilding perspective, Zygarde causes extreme issues due to an unhealthy amount of bulk for a set-up sweeper/wallbreaker and the ability to cheese past its checks without necessary teammate support through status effects, Weakness Policy paired with specific EV spreads or a situational Z-move such as Groundium Z, Dragonium Z and Steelium Z. Make no mistake, I do believe both Mega Metagross and Mega Blastoise are often just as overbearing to face in practice as Zygarde. The keyphrase that distinguishes Zygarde from the rest is the fact that it is able to cripple its checks beyond repair on its own, meaning that its risk-reward balance is skewed even more to the right than both Mega Metagross and Mega Blastoise, as these do require team support in the form of status effects and hazards in order to ultimately beat their checks. I do acknowledge that both Mega Metagross and Mega Blastoise are also capable of overwhelming their checks on their own with Meteor Mash raises and Zen Headbutt/Dark Pulse flinches, but we can hopefully all agree that Zygarde does the same in a less hax-dependant, and therefore more reliable, fashion, as nearly all of its sets can fit Toxic, and that is quite frankly all it needs to outlast most of its checks on the long run.

Nevertheless, this post is merely an argument for suspecting, or perhaps even quickbanning, Zygarde first and foremost. I do believe both Mega Metagross and Mega Blastoise are broken, and deserve no place in this metagame either.
Last edited:
Be warned, this my first post. When it comes to the National Dex OU metagame, its clear that the trio of terror are running the defensive answers to the metagame. As for me, I have had my fair share of clapping these threats and being clapped by them by players and Hax. But lets go over why these mons need to go.

Zygarde- This pokemon alone if the definition of broken. Even though we don't have Power Construct available in the metagame, this mon is a difficult mon to answer to in general. Thanks to Zygarde's movepool, the availability of Z moves, items that boost Zygarde's effectiveness and the move Thousand Arrows. This mon can effectively take out mons while being able to deal with its own defensive answers. Being able to use status to cripple defensive answers with Glare and Toxic, situational Z-moves to take out immunites or walls, having the needed bulk to take on hits, multiple set up options such as Dragon Dance and Coil with Substitute, and having a spammable ground move that can hit flying types. This mon can take out entire teams on its own by itself. This mon is splashable in just about every team and is a major bane to every player that faces it. On top of that, a pokemon that can deal with its own defensive answers and win against them on its own is completely unhealthy for the metagame. In my words, Zygarde needs to go. This mon was ban in gen 7 OU and it needs to be ban again.

Mega Metagross: This mon is a monster in the offensive department. Sure we can kill it with a choice specs ash greninja but not every team will run that. But here is the point, mega metagross is a nasty mon that has options to win and a snowball effect that can get out of hand very quickly. Meta metagross can even muscle pass the likes of skarmory, physical corviknight, Slowbro, tangrowth, ferrothorn and even physical landorus on its own due to Meteor mash giving the mon a chance to boost its attack and the coverage moves it gets. The best way to even take out this mon is to have a fast dark, ground or fire type that can kill it in on go. Or being able to wear it down with hazards and then deal the finishing blow. Thanks to Zen Headbutt, this mon can also flinch other mons down and make defensive answers less of an issue for the player using mega metagross. What makes mega metagross a bigger issue is the fact that all of the Tapus give Mega metagross support and buff up its attacks to unnecessary levels. This mon needs to go, but Zygarde is more of a bigger priority. However, this mon was ban in gen 7 and the reasons show in this metagame even more.

Mega Blastoise: At first, Mega Blastoise was an Ok mega until it got shell smash. Because of this mon getting this move, it is one of the most broken special attackers in any metagame that would even consider allowing this mon. With Mega Launcher, Shell Smash and some decent bulk, this monster of a pokemon can plow through teams that are not ready for it. The best mon to even be able to even check it is Tapu Fini, a bit of Mantine, Somewhat assault vest tangrowth and maybe chansey with evolite. Ferrothorn is no good thanks to Aura Sphere. In most battles, hazards will be up as well and this gives Mega Blastoise an easier time to sweep teams. Dark Pulse is powered up and has a chance of flinching as well thanks to Mega Launcher. The best answers to this mon is to take it down on the turn it sets up, priority moves and to use faster scarf pokemon such as scarf tapu koko and scarf dragapult. This mon is a broken sweeper in general and is no fun to face thanks to teams focused on supporting this mon with Reflect and Light Screen, Aurora Veil, and Hazards. As much as I want this mon gone, there are bigger fish such as Zygarde.

Over all, I am not here to rant but to at least give my say on what I see in the metagame along with talking about with other like minded players who want a fun and challenging metagame for everyone to play. I guess I could be considered an average joe compared to the big names in this metagame but this metagame is fun to me and I like this metagame and I want what is best for it. Though, I am busy with working and college stuff. However, I can say that these offensive threats do run the game on what defensive checks exist in our teams now. I just hope that we can come to an understanding and come up with a plan to deal with these mons in a good manner. I have a screen shot in what other people on showdown say about what mons are unhealthy and its clear what mons people see are clearly screwing things around for us players.


Ok, so here's my views on these 3 mons:


This just needs to leave now and should never have come back. It's incredibly overbearing for any and every team, even if they're fully prepared to take it on. The fact that this is able to beat every defensive and offensive answer with ease is ridiculous. Anything that pivots into Zygarde either gets crippled by Glare or Toxic and can't reliably keep it at bay because they have to keep recovering or pivoting in and out(and therefore possibly sacking at least one or two teammates in this scenario) or not being able to outspeed and KO it. This should really be our #1 priority and I think many can agree with this notion.


I've been using this a lot with the ground snake, and tbh, the only reason this is even that much of a problem is because it's best friend Zygarde can and will be used alongside it. Anything that chips Metagriss down like Slowbro and Tangrowth (other checks include Ferrothorn who only fears the occasional Hammer Arm and the rare HP Fire, Corviknight who hates TPunch but can usually eat it and spam Roost while chipping with RHelmet, as well as Heattom and a couple others, but only Bro and Tang take on both Meta and Zyg) pressures it immensely will beat it if it's not paired with Zygarde as they won't have to worry about Toxic wearing them down, but that scenario is rare. Otherwise, neither Tang nor Bro get reliably 2HKOED by even super effective hits like TPunch and Ice Punch at full(staying at high health isn't exactly difficult since these two both have Regenerator and other recover like Slack Off for Bro and Synthesis and Leech Seed for Tang, though Tang tends to prefer Sleep Powder). Also, I feel like people are massively overestimating the threat of the possibility of the secondary effects of Megagross' STAB and coverage options, as it hardly ever really stays in long enough to take advantage of Mash's small chance of gaining an attack boost to sweep, as well as the even smaller chance of paralysis from TPunch, which Slowbro can easily sponge and recover if equipped with a Rocky Helmet and Lefties variants do a decent job of sponging and throwing out Scalds too. This also struggles to slot all the necessary coverage it wants, as missing out on any one of them has huge consequences. It rarely runs ZHB anyways for this reason, so idk why people are complaining about a rare option with a minuscule chance at a secondary effect. If a verdict is reached to suspect this however, I'd recommend at least doing it after we suspect Zygarde and MegaToise after Zygarde, as this will allow us to see how this does in a post-Zygarde meta to avoid skewing whether or not it's actually broken.


Like Zygarde, this can easily sweep even the most prepared teams. The fact that even Chansey can't stand up to this reliably should raise an eyebrow, as Aura Sphere pretty much 2hkoes regardless of Timid or Modest(not that a good player would run Modest to get outsped by Scarf Kartana after a Shell Smash), while still hitting other stuff rather hard. Offensive answers are extremely reliant on chip from hazards and occasionally status, both of which are hard to set against the Screens hyper offense teams that Blastoise finds itself on due to both Mew and Grimmsnarl being able to click Taunt against everything. These offensive answers find it even harder to revenge Toise because being on said teams means it's great bulk becomes utterly ridiculous even after a Smash. Defensive answers that aren't Tapu Fini, like Toxapex and Gastrodon, usually end up just clicking their recovery and phasing moves alternatively in order to try to hold it off. And even you are running Fini, you pretty much have to avoid letting it take much damage at all since it struggles to check Mega Blastoise after some prior damage and gets worn down easily. Another mon that could possibly check this is Calm Mind + Unaware Clefable, but it struggles against Hydro Pump variants and stall is shit anyways. Definitely needs to be suspected, but probably after Zygarde.

Overall, I think Mega Metagross is far easier to deal with compared to Zygarde and Mega Blastoise, and we should really give it a chance in a post-Zygarde meta, similar to how we tested Genesect after Arena Trap was banned. This way, we can better assess its capabilities in this meta without considering outside forces that can skew our decision.
Zygarde: is incredibly hard to play around. Unless you are certain it is a choice band variant or dragon dance variant, you have no idea what to expect. On top of this, it has the incredible ground move Thousand Arrows. Unlike most choice banders who, when locked into a ground move, gets forced out by flying types and levitators such and Lando-T, Dragonite, Gliscor, Rotom-H/W, Mandibuzz, Celesteela, and Mega Zard Y, Thousand Arrows can bypass this. However, band isn't its only set. Glare and Toxic can cripple and its dd set is great due to its brilliant bulk. This should be banned ASAP.

Metagross: is a brilliant wallbreaker and can shatter holes in teams with its brilliant attack. Its Meteor Mashes can cause significant damage even to those that resist it. There are very few mons that can revenge kill it, being Ash-Gren with specs, Scarf G-Darm (but only with Flare Blitz if Metagross is at full HP) and Scarf Lando. This also shatters most bulky mons, Corviknight is 2hko'd by Thunder Punch, Toxapex is a possible 2HKO with EQ and Sableye is an easy 2HKO with Meteor Mash. IMO it should be suspected.

Blastoise: is a hard one. Shell Smash has made Blastoise very threatening. Its great bulk allows it to easily get the boost at the right situation and when it gets the boosts it is hard to stop. Fini walls it but still takes 30% from Modest Toise. Ditto also makes Toise wary about boosting and Scarf Gren outspeeds +2 Toise but cannot deal too much damage to it. Should be suspected but I doubt it will be banned.
:zygarde: Zygarde :zygarde:

I completely agree with Guardsweeper. As problematic as Mega Metagross and Mega Blastoise can be, Zygarde is much more threatening. The combination of thousand arrows and toxic alone is difficult to deal with. Of all even potentially-viable Pokemon, only PH Breloom resists thousand arrows while being immune to toxic. Breloom is a very questionable pick, especially since its resistance to thousand arrows is compromised by its poor bulk.

While teambuilding, you may not reach for a resist. Reuniclus has been used a check before, since it takes no damage from toxic. However, it does not appreciate glare, and it can still lose to setup variants, and even banded sets with some chip (or outrage). Zygarde's solid bulk allows it to set substitutes in front of many Pokemon that can wall it, long enough for Zygarde to boost past it or stall it out with toxic. Zygarde can afford to have multiple support moves like toxic and substitute because of the nature of thousand arrows. You can have those 3 moves, leftovers, and DD/coil, and just steamroll teams. Try to stall out with an unaware Pokemon, and it gets toxic stalled. Pokemon that are immune to toxic either can't touch Zygarde (e.g Mega Sableye, Gliscor [which realistically can't use fit ice fang in its move slots]), or are weak to thousand arrows (steel and poison types). This makes Zygarde especially difficult for stall to handle. More balanced teams can struggle too; SpD coil sets can become too bulky to revenge kill, and DD sets can outspeed would-be revenge killers.

Zygarde definitely deserves a suspect test, and before anything else. I will not be addressing Mega Metagross or Mega Blastoise for the same reason as Guardsweeper (we should focus on Zygarde).

Edit: I would welcome a quickban more than a suspect test. Zygarde is clearly unhealthy for the metagame, and doesn't benefit it in anyway. Unlike the other two up for discussion, I have consistently lost games on the ladder solely because of Zygarde. Mega Metagross often needs some luck to single-handedly win games. Zygarde is much less predictable, making it difficult to switch in. If it has toxic, you may want to switch to magic guard Clefable. Iron tail and banded sets can beat Clefable though, so you would need something like Tangrowth to switch in on it.

The reasoning for quickbanning instead of suspect testing is to save time in balancing the tier when there is overwhelming evidence that something ought to be banned. I do believe there is enough of a consensus for this.
Last edited:
As a National Dex player and new council member, I feel like it's important to share my thoughts as well, even though I don't think I'll add anything new to the table in terms of arguments.

I agree with the others that Zygarde should be the first to be suspect tested, though I'd definitely support a quickban as well. Zygarde is easily the number one threat in the National Dex metagame; you often have to primarily use two or more slots just to keep it in check, and even then, that's often not enough to consistently deal with it anyways. This is mostly due to Zygarde's incredible versatility, it can overwhelm practically all of its checks given it's running the right set; checks such as Slowbro and Tangrowth can be overwhelmed by Toxic, Glare sets get an absurd amount of opportunities to fish for paralysis against checks, and Zygarde can even lure checks like Clefable with certain Z-Moves. Even when multiple checks are present, Zygarde will never truly be useless; all its checks can at the very least be crippled by Toxic or Glare. Zygarde is definitely not a healthy addition to the metagame, as it is very versatile and centralizes the tier to an unhealthy extent.

Mega Metagross isn't a healthy Pokemon in my eyes either. The OP managed to cover this rather well; Mega Metagross can overwhelm its checks with one very simple set, given the right amount of luck. This isn't all that's wrong with Mega Metagross either, as it's also very centralizing in the teambuilder; you often have to run multiple Pokemon to keep it in check, which really isn't that big of a pool of Pokemon. Mega Metagross is a very problematic Pokemon in National Dex that I don't think we should continue to entertain; it takes control out of the player's hands to an unfair extent and centralizes teambuilding very heavily.

I would quickly like to acknowledge that the main strain on teambuilding is definitely because of the combination of these two Pokemon rather than just one of these, as their checks overlap a lot. The fact that they synergize so incredibly well makes both Pokemon ridiculously hard to deal with individually. With that said, I wouldn't like to see Mega Metagross get acted on at the same time as Zygarde. I sincerely doubt much will change for it, but without Zygarde, the strain on teambuilding will likely be loosened a lot, which may make Mega Metagross a little easier to deal with.

I won't speak on Mega Blastoise for now, as I don't really think it's as big of an issue as these other two Pokemon.
...Can I even be bothered? Everyone's said what needs to be said. This thing has about 3 checks and they all lose to various sets. Thousand Arrows is utterly busted and there's pretty much no punishment for spamming it. Not worth a suspect, quickban it or we'll still be trying to fix the meta at Christmas.

With that out the way, I would like to quote part of the Smogon Tiering Policy Framework:
IV.) Unhealthy - elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken yet are deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent.
  • These are elements that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame.
  • This can also be a state of the metagame. If the metagame has too much diversity wherein team building ability is greatly hampered and battling skill is drastically reduced, we may seek to reduce the number of good-to-great threats. This can also work in reverse; if the metagame is too centralized around a particular set of Pokemon, none of which are broken on their own, we may seek to add Pokemon to increase diversity.
  • This is the most controversial and subjective one and will therefore be used the most sparingly. The Tiering Councils will only use this amidst drastic community outcry and a conviction that the move will noticeably result in the better player winning over the lesser player.
  • When trying to argue a particular element's suspect status, please avoid this category unless absolutely necessary. This is a last-ditch, subjective catch-all, and tiering arguments should focus on uncompetitive or broken first. We are coming to a point in the generations where the number of threats is close to overwhelming, so we may touch upon this more often, but please try to focus on uncompetitive and broken first.
I believe that whether you think Mega Gross and Mega Toise are broken or not, the combination of the two is unhealthy for the format. Yes, I understand that this is meant to be a last-resort, blah blah etc. I want to emphasise that whichever (if either) of the two we keep, we cannot have the other. Each of these two is individually a massive threat. Together, they constrain teambuilding heavily, with a need to have a dedicated answer to both of them on every team. Mega Gross mandates a physically bulky Steel resist on every team. Mega Toise has a unique pool of specially bulky checks. Unfortunately, their checks don't overlap much, so any successful team requires two mons to be given over to answering these threats. And such linear teambuilding lends itself to the emergence of niche threats like Rotom-H, a mon which shot up on the recent VR partly for its defensive utility, but mostly for its ability to break these common team structures. Volcarona, Mega Loppuny and Hydreigon are also rising to prominence for their ability to exploit and dismantle these common teamstructures. In such a diversified metagame where there is already way too many threats to account for, these two centralise defensive teambuilding to the point that certain mons can effortlessly breeze past common structures. This is not something that will be healthy for the tier moving forward.

(As for my personal less informed take, let's get rid of both. Mega Toise+Ash Gren sounds disgusting with how easily they can overload Fini, and Mega Gross's stats are way too high across the board, the only reason it was balanced in Gen 6 was the Mega speed mechanics. Sure it has more checks now, but unlike other 700 BST Megas in OU there just isn't a downside to Mega Gross, or a reason to run regular Gross over it.)
Last edited:
I think it's fair to say I've played enough of this meta as I got to top 10 so I'd like to just leave my thoughts here too
Lot of what I want to say has been stated here already. I do think blastoise and zygarde are quick-banworthy. Though metagross could have a suspect test instead. I do feel there are enough ways to stop it personally. Mew/ galarian corsola then it gets revenged by ash gren or scarf lando so I think zygarde and blastoise are on a different level of broken than metagross but another pokemon I want to bring up is volcarona. The new introduction of heavy duty boots makes it broken I feel. It's already able to set up on so much of the meta and now it's just better. So I would say in the order of problematic, blastoise zygarde metagross volcarona. But I do think they all need to be looked at


The "Subpar MnM Main"
is a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

When one comes to the definition of a broken Pokemon, one must ask theirselves - in what way does the Pokemon break the metagame? In Zygarde's case, it does it BOTH ways. In consistency, the Choice Band and Dragonium Z sets are very tough to handle, and can easily claim heavy amounts of damage or even kill crucial targets like Tangrowth without much of a sweat. In diversity, it has many more options than just these two. SubToxic is a very infamous Zygarde that is capable of outright stalling out Zygarde answers with ease to break through balance and even stall teams without much of an issue. Weakness Policy features very heavily on Hyper Offense due to Zygarde's innate bulk. Even Glare and other Z sets are still frightening to see because not only do you have to carry on assessing the situation for how you can continually switch into the first two sets without losing momentum, you also have to consider the other sets so that you don't autolose on preview. The result of that? Literally every team has Tangrowth and teams still get bodied by Zygarde. The literal hardest counter in the game is not counterplay to Zygarde, and that itself is telling of how stupid Zygarde is. I would personally ask to quickban Zygarde, but I understand that the prior suspect was for something seen as more broken by some members of the community. So - at least suspect this mon.


I'm really not too sure on this one. I feel like most of the building pressures exerted by Mega Metagross are not a result of Mega Metagross itself, but rather the issue of Zygarde and Mega Blastoise targeting its checks, giving it more switchins through mandating answers to them, or punishing them to the point where Mega Metagross can just breeze through these answers. However, even with that in mind, good answers like Slowbro can still be haxxed through by Mega Metagross in multiple ways - primarily through Meteor Mash raises or Thunder Punch paralysis. However, I would also like to say that despite the fairly common occurence of this, I feel that Mega Metagross does not exert enough pressure through hax to feel broken to me, neither in the builder nor in game. The options that Mega Metagross has can be scouted fairly easily. Looking through the S and A ranks of the VR, the following checks arise:


Mega Metagross: beats non Earthquake if Earthquake
Zygarde: Check only, prone to Meteor Mash raises and Zen Headbutt flinches


Aegislash: Counter if no Earthquake, otherwise a solid check
Blastoise-Mega: Check but does not like switching in (Zen flinches too)
Clefable: Countered by
Darmanitan-Galar: Scarf is a revenge killer without Bullet Punch
Ferrothorn: Counter if no Hammer Arm
Heatran: Counter if no Earthquake or Hammer Arm
Rotom-Heat: Check, counter if no Zen Headbutt
Slowbro: Hard counter with Rocky Helmet but prone to paralysis or Meteor Mash raises
Tangrowth: Counter as above
Tapu Fini: Countered by
Tornadus-Therian: Countered by unless Firium Z, otherwise check
Toxapex: Countered by


Corviknight: Counter. Unlikely to get paralyzed by Thunder Punch but can be potentially Zen flinched or Mash raised
Greninja / Ash: Check if carrying a Dark move
Kartana: Check if Darkinium Z and no Hammer Arm, otherwise stalemate
Lopunny-Mega: Countered by
Tyranitar-Mega: Can trade but unadvisable
Volcarona: Counter if no Zen Headbutt


Alakazam-Mega: Checked by
Chansey: Countered by
Ditto: Good scout if no Earthquake, but prone to hax
Dragapult: Check but barely
Excadrill: Checked by
Hydreigon: Check if no Hammer Arm
Landorus-Therian: Counter if no Ice Punch but doesn't last long
Magnezone: Capable of trapping at middle percents if Scarf (40% ish)
Mew: Is a lead
Scizor-Mega: Hard counter, only beaten by gimmicky HP Fire variants
Slowbro-Mega: Prone to momentum loss + hax but otherwise a counter
Tyranitar: Checked by
Zapdos: Counter if no Zen Headbutt or Ice Punch

Of course, this is no definitive list and prone to being worn down, so multiple of these checks are often needed for teams just to filter down the coverage. The broken element for me comes in this guessing game - it is possible that a Mega Metagross could just be hiding a coverage move in order to bluff it being checked by a Pokemon (i.e Hammer Arm for Ferrothorn) and the whole counterplay game suddenly changes, putting Ferrothorn's team on the backfoot. To conclude, I think that Mega Metagross is the least suspectable of these three but deserves to be tested at some point in the future.


If Hyper Offense were not a thing this would be alright to deal with. However, when placed under Screens, Mega Blastoise is extremely hard to deal with, only having a select few checks, most of which are unable to OHKO it under screens. If Zygarde leaves the metagame, another way of checking Blastoise will have been gone, and with the lack of priority users that are splashable on bulkier teams, Mega Blastoise tends to be set to just crush balance as it stands as either they cannot cope with the hazard pressure or are unable to KO it. What doesn't help Mega Blastoise's case is that although suboptimal it can opt to drop Dark Pulse for Aura Sphere, which drops some defensive counters like Toxapex in exchange for a better offensive matchup against some checks like Ferrothorn. This can make the matchup incredibly frustrating to play as the two different dimensions to whether Mega Blastoise can KO you or whether you can KO it come into play. Even if you correctly predict a Shell Smash and take a chunk of health out of Mega Blastoise, it is bulky enough under screens to be able to just take another attack from one of its checks (such as Tangrowth) and be able to live priority at the end of it. What this ends up creating in some matches is games where only Mega Lopunny and Choice Band Zygarde (and Ditto, to an extent) can do much about Mega Blastoise without taking down the viability of the team. This centralization that Mega Blastoise applies to the metagame is arguably too much to cope with and I think this is a valid indication that Mega Blastoise is broken, and thus I would like a suspect test after Zygarde as Hyper Offense would have needed to adapt after losing their best partner.
This might sound controversial, but I think if MegaMeta stays, Megaturtle should also stay. If one goes, the other should immediately (like in the following hour, at the latest) follow suit.

My reasoning is gonna be around how the two could affect each other in terms of playstyles and team variety. This mostly comes down to the fact that if you run one, you cannot run the other. However both are strong in their own way, and have their own ideas of wincons and team options. It would be interesting to see a meta revolving around two very strong yet different options, with different team support based on either countering the opposite option. The best comparison I can give would be for Dracovish, who's incredibly strong and can steamroll anything unprepared, but has definite counters that teams can incorporate to not die instantly. As such you have teams to sustain a sweep and eliminate counters, but you also have teams against those strategies. Megaturtle and MegaMeta are different because they're a good few steps above Dracovish. Dracovish wins in specific scenarios whereas those two can win in quite a few common scenarios. I think Megaturtle is the worse offender, as one boost is all it takes to potentially win, but counters do exist and can be added to teams with MegaMeta. MegaMeta is strong in its own right, but again, counters exist. And I know that is literally the definition of overcentralization and therefore banworthy but the point is I think a meta containing the two could be interesting and not necessarily the worst thing ever. It'd be like weather wars but not weather and just a bunch of stupid strong attacks all the time.

As for Zygarde, get that trash out of here and leave it in AG where it belongs.


Bono My Tires are Deceased
is a Contributor to Smogon
I suppose I'll toss my opinions on these three into the fire...

:Zygarde: Quickban This. There's not a whole lot that I can say that hasn't already been said. You all know the drill; there's basically nothing that beats the insane set variety that this brings to the table, whether it be Substitute sets, Choice Band, Z-Moves, status spreading, you name it. Even Tangrowth gets bodied by a bunch of Zygarde sets, and Tangrowth is theoretically the best "counter" possible. This thing has no business sticking around in the tier, and for that reason I believe it should be taken care of as quickly as possible.

:Metagross-Mega: My main thing is that I would really like to see what Mega Metagross can do in a Zyg-less metagame. It's been mentioned before that this in conjunction with Zygarde can systematically wear down each other checks, which is why they are arguably the most Potent offensive core in the meta right now. Mega Metagross will not have its best buddy if Zygarde gets the ax.

That being said, decisive action should be taken quickly if Mega Metagross still proves to be broken (and I suspect it will, Meteor Mash raises completely breaks it). I don't believe its quickban worthy though; a Suspect is in order here in the end, but not before Zygarde if you ask me.

:Blastoise-Mega: Suspect This thing has been covered at length so I won't get too into it. It's much lower priority than the other two, however. It is notable that Zygarde going would rid the tier of one of the best ways to revenge kill it, however. This should probably be suspected just because of how stupidly difficult it can be to deal with on Spike stacking teams unless you are running a very specialized team with certain Pokemon in return. Hold off until the other two get dealt with though, in my opinion.


Ya like jazz?
is a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor
Even though I am not adding anything new to the discussion, I think I should just get these 3 out of the way

Zygarde is easily the best Pokemon in the metagame at the moment and it's not hard to see why, its absurdly bulky, has a great typing as well as insane set versatility to back that up. It's extremely unhealthy in my eyes because there is really no counters to this Pokemon and it frequently forces Pokemon such as Tangrowth and Rotom-H to run HP Ice in order for teams to not be at a complete disadvantage against it, and even with that, it is still incredibly hard to account for with its amazing sets. CB, SubTox, Dragonium, Steelium, DD + Glare and many more. Making it even worse is the fact that like Guard said before, it can break through these checks and "counters" with little to no team support on its own. I honestly feel like Zygarde limits variety and adds a lot of constraint to teambuilding as you usually need a Zygarde check or sack multiple of them to not be overpowered by Zygarde, and I think it completely halts the tiers development and doesn't add anything positive, this is the reason why I personally want it quickbanned though I do not mind a suspect.

While I do not think Mega Metagross is as incredibly dumb as Zygarde is, the combination of both is obviously unhealthy for the tier. Though I do want to see how this Pokemon will be for the metagame after Zygarde's ban, since Zygarde can wear down and beat most if not all of its checks. Despite this I do think that Mega Metagross is a extremely dangerous wallbreaker that can easily hax its way through its checks and overall just push holes through the opposing team, however I want to see if it is still threatening and becomes unhealthy even in a Zyg-less meta. Though on its own I do not think it warrants a suspect right now.

This Pokemon can easily sweep unprepared teams as after a Shell Smash there isn't really anything that can reliably handle it bar Tapu Fini. Mega Blastoise is much more broken on paper than it is in practice, however it still warrants a suspect in my eyes. While this Pokemon is not really that much of a problem on most other team archtypes, it is hyper offense that really makes Mega Blastoise extremely hard to deal with, as you can not really ever kill this in one hit due to its pretty decent bulk, and once it gets up a Shell Smash there is barely anything you can do unless you have have prority that can kill it in a few hits, such as with Mega Lopunny or using a Tapu Fini, and even with that you will need to sack a Pokemon or 2 in order to deal with it. Checks such as Toxapex can easily get haxxed out by Dark Pulse flinches that can easily snowball into a sweep, and Ferrothorn can be killed by the somewhat impractical Aura Sphere. This type of centralisation that Mega Blastoise brings is not healthy for the tier and as a result I think this should 100% be suspected after the Zygarde suspect.
Last edited:
From what I have seen, I would say the biggest problem with Zygarde, Blastoise, and Metagross is that all 3 exist at the same time.
In a vacuum, all 3 are not as threatening to be banned individually.
The problem I’ve seen is that you are preparing so many slots for your team to fend off 3 different threats.
As an example, Tapu Fini can check Mega Blastoise and certain Zygarde sets, but not Mega Metagross.
Tangrowth can check Zygarde and Mega Metagross pretty well, but dies to an Ice Beam from Mega Blastoise.
Pyukumuku can stall out non-Thunder Punch Metagross and Mega Blastoise, but Zygarde with Sub will make Pyukumuku dead weight while Toxic will put Pyukumuku on a timer if it doesn’t have Rest (to which the Zygarde can just attack it while it sleeps).
Toxapex has the same problem as Pyukumuku too.
(and no, this isn’t to say Tapu Fini or Tangrowth are only used for these 3 Pokemon)

If there was 1 universal check/counter, they all would be fine.
Actually no, the fact they can have overlapping checks means they can wear them down for eachother, eg: Zy weakening Fini so Blastiose can sweep later.
I mean, that’s true, but Tapu Fini isn’t the universal check between the 3 of them, and that was just a hypothetical. And I was thinking along the lines of this hypothetical Pokemon having decent recovery because of those scenarios where the opponent just weakens your check.


Banned deucer.
With 2 of the original 3 Pokemon mentioned in here now banned, the meta has continued developing and we're now at a point where some potentially new issues have arisen alongside Mega Metagross. Currently, the council feels that the metagame is extremely top-heavy, with most teams being forced to comprise of the same selection of a very few Pokemon in order to function well. This is because of the strength of some of the Pokemon we have available forcing very specific, and sometimes multiple, counterplay options.

G-Darm was previously held back by Mega Blastoise's prevalence, as it was able to set up easily on a G-Darm locked into any of its common moves, relegating it to mostly being forced into clicking U-turn in those matchups. Outside of those matchups, the prevalence of Pokemon such as Slowbro, Rotom-Heat, and Tapu Fini also made it difficult for G-Darm to shine and whilst this is still the case, there are other Pokemon that can pair excellently with G-Darm that can very easily force damage onto these Pokemon, making it very easy to overwhelm them. It's very limited counterplay options make it by far the most splashable Choice Scarf user in the tier, with the option for Choice Band which makes it even harder to check defensively at the cost of being good speed control. This was also inhibited previously by Mega Blastoise's existence, as Speed Control options had to outpace a Mega Blastoise after it used Shell Smash, which G-Darm could not accomplish.

:ss/greninja-ash: :ss/metagross-mega:
Ash Greninja has really started to make its presence known in the metagame, as there are very few ways to check Mega Metagross and Ash Greninja together effectively. The easiest and most common way to do so is to use Rocky Helmet Tangrowth + Tapu Fini, which I am sure you are all familiar with as it has been the most common team archetype in the metagame for a long time now. It's become even more apparent now how constricting the combination of Mega Metagross and Ash Greninja has become on building teams in National Dex, and the council would like everybody's thoughts on which of these 2 is the more broken aspect of this combination, if any (or both).

Additionally, Mega Metagross still has similar issues as it did when this thread was made - namely its lack of defensive answers and ability to overwhelm them with well-timed secondary effects. With the rise of Garchomp as the premier Stealth Rock setter in the metagame, its also much easier to fit additional coverage onto Mega Metagross, such as Hammer Arm or Earthquake, which makes it even harder to check still.

The council wants to get everyone's thoughts on these 3 mons before we take any further actions with regards to bans or suspect tests!


Banned deucer.
I personally believe that the most restrictive and unhealthy element of the metagame at the moment is by far Galarian Darm. Galarian Darm has a very small pool of Pokemon that could be considered defensive checks, with many of those either being easily worn down (Rotom-Heat/Wash, Tapu Fini, Volcarona), or reliant on winning prediction wars (Mega Scizor, Toxapex, Heatran). It does have its offensive checks, such as Scarf Kartana, Mega Lopunny, Mega Scizor, and others, but little to none of them can actually afford to switch in to Darm directly, and must either be pivoted into (which is risky since Scarf Darm's U-turn is incredibly spammable and strong), or you're forced to sack to get it in safely. Darm's best overall check is Slowbro by far, but it take substantial chip from U-turn.

Now of course this is just referring to the scarf set, which is Darm's best set by far. The Banded set, while easier to revenge, is far harder to switch into and requires entirely different counterplay, though it is harder to fit onto teams.

That's another factor I think contributes to Darm's unhealthy effect on the metagame, the fact that it is so easy to splash onto just about any team. Even something like Mega Blastoise had to be built around and could only fit on certain archetypes. G-Darm however, because of its great stats, movepool, ability, etc, and the fact that it doesn't take up a Mega or Z slot, can be splashed onto just about any team and just about any team archetype outside of fat balance and outright Stall. As a result, G-Darm is an incredibly common Pokemon which makes the issues in regards to checking it all that more egregious. Through being so splashable on teams, it also forces teams to build around the very few consistent answers it has, and even then, it's often better to put multiple answers to it on one team because the answers it does have are either, as said before, worn down quickly, prediction reliant, or it's just Slowbro, a Pokemon that, while great in its own right, does not fit onto every team.

One could argue that Darm's weakness to rocks tempers it a bit, but I'd argue that the high usage and viability and ease of splashability of Pokemon such as Corviknight, Tapu Fini, and Tornadus-T make this a relative nonissue. In fact, even outside of defogging, these Pokemon all make great partners for Darm, since they can either pivot into it or chip down the checks it has to make it easier for Darm to win.

Taking all of this into account, I think that Darmanitan has an unhealthy effect on the metagame. It has far too limited a pool of consistent counterplay, it restricts teambuilding to an unhealthy degree, and I think the metagame would do better with its absence.

I do not think Galarian Darmanitan is worthy of a quickban, but I think it is wholly deserving of a suspect.

That being said, I will say that I think Mega Metagross could also be argued to be unhealthy, but I think it's to a far lesser degree than G-Darm, and I would say the same about Ash-Greninja, especially since Tapu Fini, Ash-Gren's single best counter, is the best it's ever been.
Oh boy, where do I even start? I guess with the elephant in the room?


Prior to Zygarde's ban, I thought this was only a pain to deal with because of Zyg Toxic'ing or downright obliterating its answers. Now it's pretty clear that this is just outright ridiculous, being able to threaten almost every defensive answer with 2HKOes after SR (such as Corviknight and Slowbro) or an attack Boost from MM (Hippowdon and Tangrowth). The only mon that can avoid even a 3HKO from Megagross consistently is Mega Scizor, who gets abused/pressured by common teammates like Magnezone, Rotom-H, Heatran, etc. I personally think a quickban or at least a suspect wouldn't be out of the question.


This is equally unhealthy imo. While this has a few consistent checks, they're usually not very splashable and are easily abused by U-turn. Slowbro takes a shitton of damage from the move and is forced out by common teammates like Rotom-H and Ash-Gren that Darm can bring in, Alomomola only really fits on stall rn which sucks ass, Rotom-H lacks recovery outside of Pain Split ,and as NuttyRabbit stated, everything else is reliant on prediction. I think a suspect would be more appropriate, especially if MMeta gets tested/QBed first.

Overall, both MMeta and Darm-G are extremely centralizing to the point that the most common archetype in FiniTang is pretty much the only decent one to run, and many Pokemon have been able to abuse this fact, with sweepers like Volcarona carrying different coverage moves in order to blast through these teams as a result of the pressure placed on the builder by Meta and Darm. Get these two outta here.


This is a lot more balanced, mainly by the fact that its best answer in Fini is super popular, but also because other answers like AV Tang are pretty consistent, as well as offensive checks like Kartana also.


100k for the car, half a mill for the addiction
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
My main issue with this Pokemon is that not only can it essentially run a Choice Band and a Scarf, but depending on the move it chooses to click it can completely turn the tide of a game around. Ice + Fire + Ground coverage hits nearly everything in the metagame, and targets that it fails to deal significant damage to just lost momentum due to U-Turn. Additionally, these checks to GDarm can be worn down throughout the match. The splashability of this Pokemon was addressed in the OP, which is also a serious reason behind why this Pokemon is as centralizing as it is. Being rocks weak is not a serious issue as every time this Pokemon comes in, it can deal serious damage or pivot into a defogger. Personally, I feel these qualities make it worthy of a suspect, though it is not the highest priority suspect.

Here we have the most suspect worthy Pokemon in NatDex. This is the broken Pokemon in the Meta/Gren pairing and I don't think that's arguable. Ridiculous power + incredible bulk + Tough Claws is extremely oppressive, and extremely restrictive in the builder. A Zen Headbutt flinch, Meteor Mash attack raise, or Thunder Punch paralysis can take your Metagross wall out of comission, leaving your team at the mercy of this behemoth. There is not much else to say against this being the most oppressive and broken Pokemon in the format as of now.

This Pokemon is not broken, it just stands as the best pairing for Mega Metagross since it can deal with checks like Slowbro and Hippowdon. The pressure it puts on teams is not nearly the pressure that is applied by Megagross or GDarm. Not much to say, aside from that this Pokemon does not need a suspect.
With the removal of Mega Blastoise, Darmanitan-G has increased in viability since Mega Blastoise would tank Darm-G’s attacks no problem and turn momentum on Darm-G.
To some people, this is a sign that Darmanitan-Galar is ban worthy.
But honestly, why so suddenly?
Mega Blastoise was exclusively ran on Hyper Offensive teams, and yet people were fine with Darm-G before when they ran other team archetypes.
Before, teams had to account for both Darmanitan-G and Mega Blastoise, not on the same team, but still when going into a match and looking at your opponent’s Pokemon for the first time when teams had either.
Also, the removal of Mega Blastoise didn’t really change how Darmanitan-G’s checks and how they play around it, if not lighten the load defensive checks have to bare a little.
I think the biggest change would be the premier rock setter being Garchomp, a Pokemon Darm-G obviously beats, which is better than it seems. Since the only good item Darm-G can wear is Scarf (Band is good at wallbreaking, but way to slow, and HDBs is just shit), Darm-G can be easily worn down. It’s especially detrimental to Darm-G since it’s a part of the “is just bulky enough to take a hit” group of attacks, like Greninja and Dragapult.
This is very important as dealing with the best current Rock Setter is a pretty good negation to Darm-G’s biggest weakness.
For me, the decision to suspect or not suspect Darm-G comes down to how NatDex differs to regular OU.
In Regular OU, with the lack of checks due to the Dexcut, Darmanitan-G was in more control of when it would switch, and avoid stealth rock damage as much as possible with smart enough play and the use of Choice Band. Absolutely nothing could take more than 2 hits from CB Darm-G if it had used the right coverage move. While Scarf was a scary prospect since not a lot of Pokemon could outspeed. Also the bluff between CB and CS could make the guy in a deodorant commercial sweat through the aluminium in his deodorant.
However, in NatDex, there are 2 problems for Darm-G.
1. The amount of defensive checks increasing and actually having counters now to its CB set
2. The Speed tiers being higher and the offensive checks being bulkier
3. The fact that CB (it is viable, but a lot worse than scarf) is worse off now because of the former 2 points, thus making it easier to check defensively
4. The rock setters are much stronger, getting their rocks up much more reliably.
In contrast, however;
1. Hazard Removers are also stronger too (surprised no one is talking about Tornadus-T, as it compliments Darm-G extremely well)
2. Its Teammates are also stronger as well
3. You still have the option to run Belly Drum and Zen Mode, making it very easy to get a cheeky sweep, and Zen Mode is complimented by Gorilla Tactics’s as it forces out a lot of Pokemon (although this is niche and won’t work in a best of 3 scenario)
It is hard to say. Imo, wait for the DLC. Once the DLC is released, the Metagame will shift dramatically as unreleased Pokemon get new tools to use. If Darmanitan-Galar is still broken, then definitely suspect it.
:Greninja-Ash: :Metagross-Mega:
Anyone remember when I said that you can use Ash Greninja with Mega Toise, where they wear down each other’s checks?
First, sorry about that.
Second, Ash Greninja seems to have found a new partner in Mega Metagross, which is now more viable when Chomp is now back as the premier rock setter and lets Metagross use all pieces or Exodia moves too attack.
This offensive core is fantastic as Mega Metagross with 4 attacking moves allows Megagross is encompass more things to not be stopped by, while GrenAsh deals with most of the other checks causing its buddy problems.
But like I said above, the amount of checks they have now that are now more viable with Mega Blastoise’s departure has only increased.
In the post made by Jho, they mention that RH Tang+Fini was the easiest and most common defensive counterplay to them.
It is true, but what is also true is that most common =/= the only one and the easiest =/= the only one either.
AV Tang+Slowbro is actually great as Tang can tank hits from both GrenAsh and Megagross (although only forces out GrenAsh, but can still dent a weakened Megagross), with most damage being negated when it switches back out, and Slowbro can pretty much endlessly wall Metagross, burn it, and Teleport on it or the incoming teammate to let in an offensive check come in (while also healing Slowbro), and but its definitely not dealing with Ash Greninja. Both Pokemon having Regenerator also helps prevent Greninja from transforming as well.
Some other defensive Pokemon to use against them are;
Seismitoad/Gastrodon (Only loses to Greninja locked into Dark Pulse)
Ferrothorn (Only loses if Megagross has Hammer Arm or if Greninja is again locked into Dark Pulse)
Mega Aggron+Chansey (The former dealing with Megagross and the Latter dealing with Greninja and can also wish and maybe telewish in the future)
Pyukumuku (Only at full health, no hazards up, and if Greninja didn’t transform+Is locked into Dark Pulse)
This list may seem small, but NatDex OU doesn’t have that many defensive Pokemon.
But as you can see, most of the problem stem from Ash Greninja dealing with all of Mega Metagross’s checks and counters. This is just like what happened with Mega Blastoise and Mega Metagross.
Suspect Ash Greninja
Wait for DLC to see if Mega Metagross
still a problem (It likely won’t tbh if Ash Greninja is gone)
I feel like we are at the stage were now where theres nothing directly broken or unhealthy but that still doesn't mean we can't give some of these suspects a shot.


I gonna be real here. I think this Darm-G broken thing has been a massive overreaction. While yes Mega Blastoise could punishes it, it still has all of its other problems. Firstly stealth rocks and Flare Blitz recoil makes the scarf less reliable at revenge killing in practice. It can easily be chipped in range of Bisharp's Sucker Punch and Mega Scizor's Bullet Punch. I should also note that Darm-G speed for a scarfer is disappointing and has made sweepers like Mega Charizard X and Volcarona rise in usage and they all greatly annoy the teams it fits on. CBCB is quite a formidable wallbreaker however again that 95 Speed really holds it back. Its not like it invalidates stall teams because they all run Alomomola now which is basically its hardest counter possible.

Defensively, checking Darm-G has never been hard for me. Slowbro and Toxapex's regenerator all help them stay healthy and most of my balance teams end up having plenty of resists to its attacks so often Darm-G is forced to click U-turn which you can take advantage of.

So yeah I do think that Darm-G is one of the best offensive threats in the metagame but I don't think its broken.


I think this juggernaut is the actual problem with the tier. While Darm-G can't switch in to anything. Mega Metagross I swear can switch in multiple times in the match. But the reason I think its broken is the hax its able to pull off during a game. Unfortunately I never saved this game but one time in a room tour I had a Mega Scizor (hardest Mega Metagross counter in the tier btw) and the man I was facing manage to get 2 Meteor Mash attack raises and Thunder Punch para and it went exactly how you expect. While in the end I managed to win that battle it really showed me the true issue with Mega Metagross. The fact that all of its required moves have rare secondary effects that can drastically change the game. The last moveslot is another annoying thing to figure out when facing it. It has 3 options, Hammer Arm, Earthquake, and Stealth Rock. If you can find me a mon that scout out all of that be my guest.

I would like to see this thing suspected soon.


To be honest I didn't think this thing was a healthy presence in SM. Although if Mega Metagross goes Tapu Bulu may become viable again and thus more checks to this thing. I would probably abstain from talking about this because I don't know how to feel about it.
Last edited:
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)