Metagame National Dex - On The Radar Vol. 2

[Jordy]

Hey everyone! I'm glad to announce that the National Dex council feels confident enough about the development of the National Dex metagame to open up discussion on what our first suspect test since the recent bans should be.

You are free to discuss any of the 5 Pokemon that were banned, which you can find more about in this thread, here. If any Pokemon currently stands out as broken to you and you believe that it should be adressed, this is also the place to discuss that. Please share which Pokemon you believe should be prioritized for a suspect test.

Make sure to back your opinion with solid arguments, and try to make sure that what you're arguing checks out with the policy that's laid out here. Keep it civil.

Here is where we, the National Dex council, currently stand with regards to what Pokemon to suspect test

• Tornadus-T stands out as a good candidate for a suspect test currently.
  • Tornadus-T, if it were to be unbanned, would have the opportunity to "fix" a lot of the shortcomings that are currently present in the National Dex metagame. It would make it much easier to fit entry hazard control and sufficient speed control onto teams, which is currently very troublesome.
  • Ofcourse, that isn't all there is to it; Tornadus-T would likely still be very good at forcing progress, and taking on just about any Flying-resistant Pokemon in long-term games, which is what it was ultimately banned for.
  • Regardless, holding a suspect test that would allow us to reassess Tornadus-T's position in the National Dex metagame seems like a good course of action to us right now.
• We've also considered other courses of action. Ash-Greninja is another Pokemon that we can see as a very realistic option to suspect test.
  • Ash-Greninja was banned for its oppressive presence in the teambuilder, forcing many teams into running Tapu Fini, Hydreigon, or sturdy Water-resistant Pokemon + Dark-resistant Pokemon.
  • Since being banned, the National Dex metagame has had a lot of natural developments that could make Ash-Greninja less oppressive to deal with. First and foremost, Tapu Fini and Toxapex are much less strained in this metagame without Pokemon like Mega Metagross and Galarian Darmanitan. On top of that, Hydreigon and Blissey have seen a significant surge in usage, currently being some of the most prominent Pokemon in the National Dex metagame.
  • After these developments that may make Ash-Greninja easier to deal with for teams, we believe that now could be a good time to hold a suspect test that would allow us to experience Ash-Greninja in the current National Dex metagame.

You can find some more detailed thoughts here.

Ofcourse you are free to disagree with any of the assessments made here. This is an open discussion and you shouldn't feel persuaded to argue for one of these simply because that is where we as the council stand right now.

 

[Jordy]

This thread will be locked for 24 hours so that everyone can collect their thoughts first.

 

[Jordy]

This thread is now open for discussion!

 

[Saurav the great]

Imma give some of my thoughts on the suspect tested mons

Is Torn-t really only being tested because the hazard game is so in favour of the hazard setters? I mean it can still do the same things, make progress throughout matches with the help of U-turn and Knock Off. I can potentially see it not being broken due to the rise in usage of Sp Def Gliscor and Clefable (I've seen a fair amount of Sp Def clef too to help deal with Kyu and Hyd better) which apart from z-hurricane are able to tank hits fairly well and don't care as much about knock as say something like tran or the oven. I haven't made up my mind as to whether it's broken or not because imo the huge prevalence of boots means that often times 1-2 mons which can be your tanks never end up taking rocks damage at all, add on top Magic Guard Clef and PH Glis(able to heal of the sr damage in 1 turn) I personally don't feel as if hazards are as skewed. And if hazards are as big a problem as mentioned, then the mons below is an even bigger problem to bring down.

Regardless though, it's definitely gonna go after Crown Tundra because np is gonna be too potent so even if it is unbanned you can only use it for about 3-4 months.


This thing was not broken in my opinion when it was banned and is prolly even less broken now. The huge rise in Blissey and Hydreigon are gonna do it no favours along with other checks such as toxapex being much more flexible to run specially defensive spreads. It is important to note that Blis and Hyd will not take spikes damage increasing their sustainability towards this mon. Ash-Gren will be great when it comes back but overwhelming, I really don't think so and therefore I'll be voting No Ban for this mon.

My Apologies if my thoughts sound jumbled up but these are my opinion on those 2 mons. On the contrary however, I don't find any specific mon to be overwhelming right now...mayyyyyybe Kyurem but I'm gonna say no for now, my thoughts might change though.

 

[Jordy]

Tornadus-T gaining Nasty Plot with the Crown of Tundra DLC shouldn't be in the conversation and it isn't something we will consider. Whether Nasty Plot breaks Tornadus-T or not is complete theorymon and shouldn't have a place in this conversation as a result. Future posts that mention Nasty Plot Tornadus-T may be deleted. Consider the current state of the metagame while arguing for something, and nothing else.

 

[smokeythabear96]

I think Torn will definitely have a place in the metagame as the most splashable Defogger in the tier. Considering that it only really needs Hurricane+Defog on its moveset, it can pick and choose whether it want to function as a fairly bulky pivot that gives offensive teams insurance against powerful attackers such as Lopunny without being a momentum drain or as a powerful one time nuke with Z-Hurricane. Given the prominence of Toxapex, I think a Defogger with regen is much needed, as its really the only defogger that can beat Pex in the long haul. Fini cant really touch Pex asie from knocking off its Black Sludge and struggles to fit Taunt/Knock Off onto sets as it wants all of Moonblast, Nature's Madness and Scald along with the mandatory defog. Zapdos doesnt really invest in SP Atk on its sets, meaning that its Discharges wont really be doing much to even fully Phys Def Pex, meaning that its getting Toxic'd in a 1v1. Given how powerful even one layer of Toxic Spikes can be against offense, having something that can remove them without really caring about Toxic is much needed. Its fast taunts mean that Pex can only afford to fish for scald burns and must lose its recovery in the process due to Knock Off, greatly hindering its tanking abilities in the long run. Torn can even run Heat Wave on its offensive sets to really punish the popular regen core of Pex+Growth. Overall a great addition to the metagame for more offensive builds.

I never thought this was a problem to begin with tbh. Its quite dangerous in the rain late game with the boosted priority, but ironically enough the scarfed version of Greninja checks itself quite well. It gets walled all day Roost Hydreigon as well as the pink blobs and if it locks itself into a water-type move, it becomes setup fodder for DD Dragapult. This can definitely come back into the meta.

 

[Baltimore Beedrills]

Did not know Torn-T was getting Nasty Plot until I read Jordy's post. While it does raise eyebrows, I do understand that we're not currently putting that into consideration.

Tornadus-T:
I personally never found the bird to be a problem, but there are a couple of things I should mention; the most critical point being that I do not run any standard OU teams and that my only competitive team consists of mixed OU/UU/RU mons, with one of them being Zapdos.

Torn-T is a terrifying mon in general not just as a great hazard control, but with its ability in Regenerator. Thus, hazard punishment poses less of a problem to the bird, and Torn-T can use Defog without losing much. With the addition of Heavy-Duty Boots, I imagine the hazard game must have become fairly easy for Tornadus to control as the switch-in punishment is pretty much non-existent. Bulk isn't the only thing going for the bird, though; Tornadus-T has great special attack and a pretty good speed stat. Essentially, Therian is a great all-around mon.

However, I'm not sure if it was really deserving of a ban. Most of OU's most prevalent mons are still able to check this thing. Tapu Koko obviously comes to mind, with its Electric STABS being boosted by Electric Surge. Alolan-Raichu, although probably not a first pick, has great synergy with Tapu Koko not just because of its Surge Surfer ability, but access to Rising Voltage (which is stupidly powerful in Electric Terrain). Weavile is another excellent check by virtue of a Band Icicle Crash, and Zapdos walls the heck out of Torn-T. We also have special walls such as Toxapex and Chansey (both extremely prevalent regardless of whether Torn-T was banned or not). That said, I do understand that Torn-T did have a lot of things going for it in general.

Ash-Greninja
I hated the damn thing since Generation 7, simply because of Water Shuriken. Its signature move got two buffs: turning into a special attack move to work in tandem with Greninja's special attack stat and +1 priority. Add to the fact that Ash-Greninja gets three guaranteed hits with this crap and it's technically a third buff. Although Greninja does require a kill to activate Battle-Bond, it doesn't seem to struggle with that, and the resulting new form is terrifying (actually gets 10 more BST in its buff than Megas do). This frog dropping to OU with all of those was where I began to snap.

That said, with the amount of new mons entering OU, most of which are equipped to deal with Ash-Greninja quite well, I think this could make the comeback into OU. Actually, this thing was probably doing so well not just by its own virtue, but because it experienced great synergy with its partner-in-crime, Mega Metagross. Mega Metagross could easily check the Fairy, Fighting, and Grass types that could potentially screw Ash, while Greninja could return the favor in checking Fire and Ground types. With that Mega out of the picture, I don't think Ash-Greninja would be too prevalent in the tier, but it could still find some usage as one of OU's most prevalent special attackers.

 

[Guard]

As stated, the council is currently leaning on either Tornadus-T or Ash-Greninja as candidates for the first retest, and my opinion is no different. Both of them still have the potential of being too overwhelming for the metagame of course, but, in the context of the metagame, they wield more positive attributes compared to Mega Metagross, Urshifu, and Galarian Darmanitan, which make them the more appealing options for a retest out of the quickbanned quintet in my eyes.

Both options have clear positives and negatives attached to them, so let's take a look at those before concluding anything.


POSITIVES

• As things stand, entry hazard setters such as Garchomp, Heatran, Calm Mind Clefable, Mega Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and Rockium-Z Landorus-T are capable of setting up entry hazards, and singlehandedly keeping them up, without much of a worry against our premier Defogger in Zapdos, and some are capable of keeping them up against our second best Defogger in Corviknight as well. Other viable entry hazard removers, such as Choice Scarf Landorus-T, Tapu Fini, Excadrill, Mega Latias, Kartana, and Gliscor, have a whole host of issues that make them less splashable than Zapdos and Corviknight, be it that they are too passive in general, lack longevity, aren’t capable of keeping up with Ferrothorn, or that they simply do not check much of the relevant metagame to be deemed splashable. This makes it so that Zapdos and Corviknight, despite their lacklustre matchup against common entry hazard setters, fulfil the role of Defogger on most builds anyway, which has resulted in a metagame where entry hazards are deemed too effective. You may have already noticed it, but Tornadus-T suffers from none of these issues. It is everything but passive, very durable, keeps up with Ferrothorn just fine, and has proven to be extremely splashable in the past. This leads me to the fact that Tornadus-T might very well be the cure in the major flaw in our current hazard landscape.
• The fact that splashable and durable Speed control against the likes of Mega Medicham, Kartana, Garchomp, and Landorus-T, as well as some other breakers such as Mega Pinsir, Mega Gallade, and Mega Heracross, does not really exist anymore after the quickbans, is another flaw in the metagame. After Tornadus-T's ban, we didn't merely lose a form of Speed control against these threats; we essentially lost the premier pivot and soft-check to Ground-, Grass-, and Fighting-types in general, a niche that is too broad to be filled up by any other Pokemon in our current metagame. If it were to be unbanned, Tornadus-T has the potential to significantly alleviate this particular issue as well.

NEGATIVES

• Regardless of any defensive voids in the metagame Tornadus-T might fill up, it is very hard to deny the fact that there still aren't any good and splashable long-term Flying-resistant Pokemon other than Zapdos. Thus, on the offensive end of the spectrum, Tornadus-T is still capable of (possibly) unhealthy amounts of progress-making and wallbreaking. Flying-resistant Pokemon other than Zapdos don't have reliable recovery, which makes them prone to continuous Knock Offs and U-turns, a process that gradually wears them down while Tornadus-T keeps evading any potential (entry hazard) damage by virtue of its high Speed and Regenerator. Generally bulky Pokemon that do have recovery fare no better. For example, Toxapex, specially defensive Clefable, and Gliscor, a few durable Pokemon that can take two Hurricanes from offensive Tornadus-T, aren't sufficient checks either. Both Toxapex and Clefable lose to Supersonic Skystrike variants after they inevitably lose their item, and can't do much against Taunt variants. Similarly, Gliscor can't stand up to Flyinium Z or Taunt variants either, making it a less-than-desirable check, even though it doesn't mind Knock Off. Similarly to Pokemon like Heatran and Magearna, both Blissey and Chansey lose their item, and then fall prone to a ruthless cycle of continuous entry hazard and U-turn damage, which makes them pathetic checks in the grand scheme of things. On top of all, it must be considered that there is potential for Tornadus-T's offensive prowess to be even more of a headache than anticipated, since Zapdos, the only check that suffices, will lose a big part of its niche, and possibly its usage as well, if Tornadus-T roams free again, since the latter will outclass it as a Defogger.

POSITIVES

• Ash-Greninja has historically served as thé Speed control option on a vast amount of teams in the past, a niche that is unoccupied at the moment, since none of our current Speed control options are nearly as splashable as Ash-Greninja is bound to be. Moreover, unlike current Speed control options such as Mega Lopunny, Cinderace, Landorus-T, and Ditto, Ash-Greninja is actually capable of making progress in a bulky metagame by virtue of Spikes, whereas current options really struggle to make meaningful progress against the infestation of bulk in the form of Pokemon like Clefable and Zapdos.
• It is undeniable that Ash-Greninja counterplay is, and has always been, much more defined and reliable than Tornadus-T counterplay. Even now, Water-resistant Pokemon such as Toxapex, Tapu Fini, Assault Vest Tangrowth, and Ferrothorn are much less restricted than any previous iteration of the metagame, while Dark-resists such as Clefable, Hydreigon, and Magearna have never fared better. On top of that, Heavy-Duty Boots Blissey has established itself as a staple on a myriad of bulky offensive teams, and, theoretically, has an impeccable matchup against Ash-Greninja.

NEGATIVES

• Ash-Greninja does nothing to solve the hazard landscape. On the contrary, it will very likely worsen this issue due to how effective of a Spikes setter it is, should it be unbanned now. However, it must be noted that the metagame does have a remedy for this prospective issue in the form of Defog Tapu Fini, which should theoretically be able to keep Ash-Greninja's Spikes at bay. Regardless, introducing a Spikes setter of this calibre into a metagame with lacklustre hazard removal to begin with is not the wise thing to do.

All in all, I do not really have a preference as of now. While I do think there's significant merit in retesting either of them, both Pokemon have clearly unappealing downsides that really have the potential to tarnish the positives they may bring to the metagame. Whichever gets the first suspect doesn't really matter in my eyes, as long as both do at some point.

 

[Zneon]

Hello all, so as you can see the council is discussing on retesting Tornadus-T and Ash-Greninja, so I'm going to give my thoughts on both and why these 2 and ultimately come to a conclusion on which one of the two I would like to be retested first. I will be judging these two on what direction the metagame has headed since the bans and how they will fair, if they won't be as overwhelming or if the positives vastly outweight the negatives, anyway let's get started.

_ _ _


So for Tornadus-T the main reason why it was banned was how it difficult it was to punish along with the lack of counterplay. It was pretty much always able to make progress no matter what team you played against due to Regenerator, Knock Off and U-turn, meaning it was always going to disrupt teams, and with how constrained teambuilding was with how Flying resists were hard to fit onto teams compared to now and how it was able to disrupt them and wear them down through the course of the game, and the surprise factor with Focus Blast and Heat Wave was icing on the cake. Now with offensive and defensive answers like Magearna and Mega Tyranitar being easier to fit onto teams like ever before, I feel Tornadus-T will be less constraining to teambuilding, especially with the lack of Pokemon that threatened them incredibly hard like Urshifu-S and Galarian Darmanitan, the surprise factor is still there but I also feel that it brings so many positives to the tier, such as being a offensive glue Pokemon that brings a large amount of utility in Defog, U-turn and Knock Off and being an excellent check to stuff like Kartana, Mega Medicham and therefore, I feel Tornadus-T doesn't bring as many negatives to the metagame as it does positives.



Now we have Ash Greninja, in my opinion, I felt Ash Greninja was overwhelming before the bans occurred, but I also felt that it was due to how many threats there were to account for, Mega Metagross always forced a physical wall such as Tangrowth or Slowbro on every team, and Urshifu made the problem worse by forcing one of its checks in Clefable to run physical defense investment, it's not really a Pokemon that I've felt was too overwhelming on its own but rather it was just a product of the metagame. Now I feel the shifts has made it so Ash Greninja is a healthy addition again in my eyes. Hydreigon is a phenomenal Pokemon right now and that checks Ash Greninja comfortably, not to mention the fact that Heavy-duty Boots have become a big part of the metagame and due to that, Blissey is an outstanding pivot on bulky balance teams and even bulky offensive teams due to the fact that it can use special attackers for momentum and Ash Greninja is a good example of something that completely loses to Blissey. These 2 also completely ignore Spikes, so while Spikes will be an incredible asset to it, I feel if they become more abundant when Spikes will potentially have less importance.

_ _ _

Other than that, I feel the metagame is pretty balanced, there isn’t any Pokemon that I feel is overbearing at moment. While these two Pokemon I feel can definitely bring negatives to the metagame I don't see them being overwhelming right now. If I would choose one, I would have to go with Tornadus-T, as while I feel it could potentially be negative to an already stable meta, I feel the amount of positives it brings to the tier would undermine the negatives a lot make the perfect candidate. As for Ash Greninja, I feel it doesn't really bring that many positives to the meta despite being in my opinion a manageable threat. As a result I would have to go with Tornadus-T as the first retest out of the bunch.

 

[Jordy]

Hi all! I would like to see Ash-Greninja suspect tested first. I'm very confident that it is the least potentially broken out of the 5 Pokemon that are on the table. The National Dex metagame has underwent many shifts independent from Ash-Greninja that should make it easier to deal with; Hydreigon has become even more prominent, Blissey is seeing a lot of usage, Tapu Fini is harder to overwhelm, and other Pokemon like Tangrowth and Toxapex are much freer to run sets that can effectively check Ash-Greninja.

Suspect testing Tornadus-T certainly has its merits; it would improve the entry hazard removal landscape drastically and would also widen the options for Speed control. However, I'm really not convinced that it won't be broken; not a lot has changed with regards to just how durable and annoying Tornadus-T is. It can still gradually wear down checks and potentially overwhelm them with coverage moves too. The fact that games tend to last shorter than they did pre-bans does mean that Tornadus-T has less long-term potential overall, but that is purely in theory and I really don't think that that argument is as compelling as the many natural adaptations that the metagame has made that can potentially make Ash-Greninja easier to deal with.

Ultimately, while I do believe that Tornadus-T could fix some issues with the current metagame, I am a firm believer in suspect testing the least potentially broken Pokemon first, and I simply do not believe that that is Tornadus-T. The National Dex metagame has evolved in such a way that I think the right step forward is to suspect test Ash-Greninja first. I think looking into Tornadus-T and potentially even Urshifu-S after that would be more apt.

 

[Solaros & Lunaris]

What’s up guys, as you can see the council has decided to look into resuspecting Tornadus-T or Ash-Greninja. I thought I’d post my opinions on the matter.

- Anyone whose played the metagame since the bans has known that the state of our hazard game is very meager. While we have a decent array of hazard removers in Zapdos, Corviknight, Excadrill, Mandibuzz, and Tapu Fini, they are often held back by a couple of flaws, such as no recovery, bad matchups against the hazard setters, passivity, or being way too slow. Tornadus-T manages to really avoid all of these things, as it has Regenerator + U-turn, solid hazard setter matchups (especially with Z-Crystals), exerts great offensive pressure, and outspeeds much of the tier. However, I don’t think it deserves to be suspected first. There is a VERY short list of consistent counterplay that isn’t destroyed by repeated Knock Offs, U-turns, and progressive hazard chip. The only consistent answer looks to be Zapdos, who also acts as competition for Tornadus-T in terms of Defogging and checking various Pokemon (it also doesn’t like its Boots being knocked, something that Tornadus-T doesn’t mind because of Regenerator + U-turn). Other checks (Heatran, Mega Tyranitar, SpDef Clefable, Toxapex, Magearna) fall to some Z-Move, Taunt, or residual damage. Thus, I think Tornadus-T is still too good for the metagame, though I would not be opposed to suspecting it first.

- Ash-Greninja is fine. Since its ban, Hydreigon has risen as a dominant presence in the metagame, Blissey was discovered as a way to blank most special attackers and ignore hazards while doing so, and Tapu Fini is still good, albeit less seen. I think the only issue, as people have said, is the lack of strong hazard counterplay when it comes to Ash-Greninja. No Defogger bar Tapu Fini and Hydreigon (why are you using Defog Hydreigon) wants to come in, allowing Greninja to Spike to its player’s content. However, I don’t think this is necessarily a horrible thing. Due to the introduction of Heavy-Duty Boots, multiple Spikes-weak Pokemon can thrive in a metagame where they are dominant. In addition to Blissey, other Pokemon such as Toxapex can afford to run HDB and ruin Ash-Gren’s progress. For the myriad of counterplay available, coupled with the prominence of Pokemon who ignore hazards while annoying Ash-Greninja, I think it should be the first suspect, and a fine addition to the tier.

 

[Jho]

I am going to get some heat for this but alas, it is what I believe to be the case. After initially thinking that the least broken Pokemon of the 5 banned had to be Tornadus-T, I did some thinking about what has actually changed for Torandus-T in the metagame, and the answer is not much; It still has all the same problems it did when it was banned such as being able to overwhelm even its best answers, making risk free progress consistently, and being exponentially more valuable as a game goes on. As a result of this, I actually think that the 2 Pokemon least likely to be broken in the current metagame are Ash-Greninja and Urshifu-S. Let me explain -


A large part of Ash-Greninja's original ban was how easy it was to overwhelm its checks with constant Spikes and support from common teammates, most notably Galarian Darmanitan. As many have stated in this thread already, right now Ash Greninja checks are even more common as Blissey has become popular and Hydreigon has cemented itself as one of the best Pokemon in the metagame. Add onto this that Pokemon like Tapu Fini and Toxapex are no longer forced to check both Ash Greninja AND Galarian Darmanitan and you have a large pool of checks that are already more than just viable in the current metagame. The one issue that I can see being a problem for Ash Greninja is its ability to very easily set up Spikes as we have noted in many places that hazard removal is not the greatest right now, however, I don't believe this takes away from the fact that Ash Greninja is the least likely to be broken Pokemon out of the 5 banned, and thus would like to see it suspect tested first.


I won't speak much on Urshifu because I do believe it is more problematic than Ash Greninja but I do think it should be considered ahead of Tornadus-T. Urshifu lost its best partner in the bans in Mega Metagross, which means freely U-turning on its common checks such as Clefable and Toxapex into something which almost always makes good progress is much harder. While fitting together teams which can reliably pivot around Urshifu's incredibly strong stabs is not always easy, I would argue that it is more realistic to put together teams that use Toxapex + Dark resist or some other core which is able to scout and check Urshifu, than it is to reliably check Tornadus-T - as even Pokemon like Zapdos and Toxapex can be overwhelmed by Torn eventually. Urshifu is of course much easier to check offensively on top of this. All of this leads me to believe that Urshifu would actually be less of an overwhelming force in the metagame than Tornadus-T and would actually personally consider it for a retest ahead of Tornadus-T at this point in time.

 

[LORD SAGIS]

Hey all, as you all know by this post I made. I personally believe Galarian Darmanitan is the most worthy of a retest.

Firstly I acknowledge G-Darm is a really powerful pokemon. Its Choice Scarf was a strong offense killer and its Choice Band nuked defensive teams. However since G-Darm's ban. The lack Ash-Greninja has made Tapu Fini and Slowbro less presured in checking stuff and Toxapex has been able to run more Physically Defense investment.

Now you may ask. Couldn't you say that the lack of G-Darm has made Tapu Fini less presured to check Ash-Greninja. Why can't you say the same thing about Ash-Greninja. Well, Ash-Greninja would make the hazard game even harder to play while G-Darm would suffer from it. I would like to reiterate my point from my last post that before the DLC was releases G-Darm was falling off once people realize how good Slowbro and Alomomola were in that metagame. My strategy to beating G-Darm with a offensive team was simple. Switch Slowbro in and look at the damage rolls. Once you discover what set is it you act accordingly. If its Scarf keep switching into Slowbro or if your feeling good stay in on the U-turn and force progress. If its Band then you can just stay in and kill once it comes in. Loads of wallbreaking options go above 95 Speed so this isn't too hard to do. I want to quote Lameflame here as well. "In terms of teambuilding, I think you need to go out of your way to build a team that has absolutely no counterplay to Darm."

Also I am against retesting Urshifu-S. All it has to do is click Iron Head on Clefable once and then it can spam its STABs for the rest of game. While G-Darm would force pokemon like Toxapex, Slowbro, Tapu Fini, and Alomomola on almost every team. They are all good Pokemon and give benefits belonged checking G-Darm. Urshifu-S would force you to just run Toxapex as the bulky water. Everything else would be too hard to reliably use. Besides the tier you people are clearly getting this idea from has a easier time fitting Mandibuzz on a team and Clefable is harder to punish.

 

[Sputnik]

Gonna toss down some of my thoughts on these suspects.


I'm going to echo the previous sentiments made that Ash-Greninja should be the first retest. It will surely be very good in this metagame, but there are counterplay options that are both good and easy to fit on teams. Hydreigon is one of the best Pokemon in the metagame at the moment, and it was one of the things that could keep Ash-Greninja in check. Both Roost and (albeit very niche now) Scarf sets can handle it. In addition, the meta has seen a rise in Heavy-Duty Boots Teleport Blissey, which would serve as a very good check that could also use Ash-Greninja's presence to pivot around and get a teammate in for free. Tapu Fini is also still a good selection in the metagame. Other Water- and Dark-resists, like Clefable, Toxapex, Ferrothorn, and Mega Venusaur can make transforming Ash-Greninja a huge headache and keep it reasonably in check. The Spikes are admittedly really annoying, but with the two of the three best checks immune to them it should be handleable for most teams.


I'm gonna speak briefly to this briefly and why I don't think they are suspect worthy at the moment, or at least not over Ash-Greninja. Torn would open up the hazard removal options, but the cost would be steep. We learned last time it was around that the checks to it long term were virtually non-existent. Even Zapdos doesn't wanna get Knocked. Dealing with this thing was hellish, and while our current options for removal are limited, it is not worth bringing Torn-T back to fill the void.

The other three aren't quite worth talking about at the moment. I think that after these two my next choice would be GDarm, but I wouldn't consider it at the moment personally and I do not want that and Ash-Greninja in the same metagame ever again.

 

[Baltimore Beedrills]

Hey all, as you all know by this post I made. I personally believe Galarian Darmanitan is the most worthy of a retest.

Firstly I acknowledge G-Darm is a really powerful pokemon. Its Choice Scarf was a strong offense killer and its Choice Band nuked defensive teams. However since G-Darm's ban. The lack Ash-Greninja has made Tapu Fini and Slowbro less presured in checking stuff and Toxapex has been able to run more Physically Defense investment.

Now you may ask. Couldn't you say that the lack of G-Darm has made Tapu Fini less presured to check Ash-Greninja. Why can't you say the same thing about Ash-Greninja. Well, Ash-Greninja would make the hazard game even harder to play while G-Darm would suffer from it. I would like to reiterate my point from my last post that before the DLC was releases G-Darm was falling off once people realize how good Slowbro and Alomomola were in that metagame. My strategy to beating G-Darm with a offensive team was simple. Switch Slowbro in and look at the damage rolls. Once you discover what set is it you act accordingly. If its Scarf keep switching into Slowbro or if your feeling good stay in on the U-turn and force progress. If its Band then you can just stay in and kill once it comes in. Loads of wallbreaking options go above 95 Speed so this isn't too hard to do. I want to quote Lameflame here as well. "In terms of teambuilding, I think you need to go out of your way to build a team that has absolutely no counterplay to Darm."

Also I am against retesting Urshifu-S. All it has to do is click Iron Head on Clefable once and then it can spam its STABs for the rest of game. While G-Darm would force pokemon like Toxapex, Slowbro, Tapu Fini, and Alomomola on almost every team. They are all good Pokemon and give benefits belonged checking G-Darm. Urshifu-S would force you to just run Toxapex as the bulky water. Everything else would be too hard to reliably use. Besides the tier you people are clearly getting this idea from has a easier time fitting Mandibuzz on a team and Clefable is harder to punish.

I second this. While G-Darmanitan has a terrifying ability, the same ability locks it into the move it has picked. Basically, once G-Darm clicks a move, all you have to do is send in the right mon to force it off the field and make a prediction based on what it's going to switch to. It's also very susceptible to getting worn down by hazards. Thus, its utility becomes a little worse. What probably cripples it, however, is that in addition to hazards, it's fair game to just about any priority move barring Ice Shard. Actually, I've found Dracovish to be far more oppressive due to its good typing and decent bulk. Therefore, I believe G-Darm's susceptibility to hazards and priorities make it worthy of a retest.

Yes, please don't even think about retesting Urshifu-S. This thing had all the right things going for it. It had a ridiculous attack stat, decent bulk (not the special defense, though), and usable speed. Being able to go through Protect is already a "wtf" ability. And the argument saying that Mandibuzz or Clefable are excellent checks sucks because that's only two Pokemon that can specifically check Urshifu, and the bear can easily deal with the latter with an Iron Head or a Poison Jab.

 

[Avery]

Hey all, some thoughts;


First of all, I am confident the metagame is absolutely prepared to handle Ash-Greninja. The prominence of Blissey, Toxapex, Hydreigon, Tangrowth, Ferrothorn, Tapu Fini, and Mega Lopunny are more than capable of both offensively and defensively handling Ash-Greninja. On the other side of the coin, Ash-Greninja will provide some competition to the everpresent Ferrothorn in providing Spikes for your team, which will, as always, wear down some of its checks. However, two of the aforementioned checks are hazard-immune, and two of the other checks have access to Regenerator to offset the chip damage racked up by Spikes. Given the relative ease that teams with the aforementioned Pokemon handle Ash-Greninja, I believe it is the most worthy of a suspect test.



I personally think that, despite the metagame shifting in a more hazard-oriented fashion, Tornadus-T will not be as healthy an addition as people are making it out to be. In fact, the tiering shifts might have benefitted Tornadus-T even more, with the removal of Mega Metagross, Ash-Greninja, and Galarian Darmanitan being huge benefits for the bird. The ability to make progress between Knock Off, U-Turn, and Hurricane (Supersonic Skystrike nonwithstanding) is frankly absurd in the current tier. The only consistent defensive checks are still Toxapex and Zapdos, and I really don't believe you should be forced into building with one of two Pokemon on every team just because of the impact Tornadus-T would have on the teambuilder and tier as a whole. All in all, despite it improving the hazard landscape and being a great form of natural speed control, I firmly believe that it would cause more harm than it would good, and thus a suspect test for Tornadus-T should remain off the table for now.

 

[Xephyrr]

Personally, I believe that none of the Pokémon suspected were a problem by theirselves. Most of them had reliable checks in the metagame which weren’t that uncommon, although the problem is the amount of threats that a team had to prepare for. All of the Pokémon suspected needed different preparation from a team, meaning that you could never prepare for all of them to have a positive matchup. That said, I’m in favour of unbanning the ones that had the biggest amount of counterplay in the game and that, in my opinion, wouldn't break the meta if they were the only ones unbanned.

The first one is Tornadus T. I believe that, although this mon offers enormous amounts of utility with Regenerator, Defog and Boots and offensive presence with Hurricane that few Pokémon can really stomach freely along with good coverage moves despite their flawed accuracy, it has many dead ends in strong walls in the tier such as Clef, Gliscor (spd) and a few more niche defensive Pokémon which don’t really mind getting residual damage from U-turn and Hurricanes and that are usually very splashable in every team in this meta. Because of Z Moves (and in general useless items such as Toxic Orb on Gliscor after it’s been poisoned) Torn can’t really abuse Knock Off in its full power as it would in a tier without them, making switching on it, despite its high speed, much easier. I’m all for a retest or an unban for this mon in particular.

Another Pokémon I believe should be retested is Ash-Greninja. Despite it being a top tier Pokémon in all generations it’s been legal in, it has always found Pokémon that, despite its pure strength and god tier relationship with rain, walled it to no end. Assault Vest Tangrowth and Magearna are not Pokémon that take a teamslot for nothing due to the nice defensive cores they make, and they make sure that Greninja never gets the Battle Bond boost it strives for. Tapu Fini also walls it to no end (unless gshot but it can be scouted), and I think that although Gren is probably the best Z Move user because of its coverage and ways to get a kill through its walls to snowball the game, it’s not that free to put a Z Move on it due to it being very frail and not easy to switch in on a predicted Knock.

I’m still unsure on Mega Metagross, but I think it should definitely stay banned for now.
for what regards Urshifu-S, I have no doubt that this thing should never see the light of an unban EVER again in this generation unless something monumental changes. It literally forces cores made of a Dark resist and a Fighting resist, while threatening every mon on the field after its free switchins through TP nonetheless (what i mean is that, by wicked blowing on the fighting resist then switching out the next turn as the enemy is forced to switch to avoid the 2HKO it'd get free damage and momentum. it also resists rocks btw) and it puts such a huge strain on teambuilding that I believe it can never be fair. I mean, the only reason why it’s allowed right now in OverUsed is, in my opinion, because of the lack of other threats to prepare for, making Buzz/Pex/Clef cores not hard to fit on a team as they cover up basically all the metagame.

At last G-Darm is a mon that in my opinion should also be never allowed again. Its ability to literally force a Russian Roulette by switching in on a team that has no consistent answer to it (while that answer has to resist/not be 2HKO’d by 3 coverage moves that a Pokémon with a free choice band + another choice item is throwing at you) is something I deem impossible to balance, especially if the "checks" are neutral to rocks, have no way to heal except by lefties and are easily put in 2hko range. Thanks alomomola atleast u are reliable

 

[astralydia]

I'm going to give my thoughts on some targets listed outside of those that have been mentioned. I feel like this should give some insight into how I feel the metagame could progress and what I believe some of the best actions are to take. This list is colour coded in presence of best to worst, and is otherwise ordered by how comfortable I feel about the decision.

Suspect worthy



If you ask me, Ash Greninja should be the first suspect that we do. Compared to all of these on the list, Ash Greninja needs to make the most work to be able to get past the most threats in the metagame. Even aside its capability of punishing practically all of its switchins with Spikes, the introduction of Heavy-Duty Boots and the realization of its effectiveness on Blissey has made it less powerful at punishing these types of balances. High usage of Hydreigon and SpD Clefable also give Ash Greninja less targets to be able to take down with its consistent stream of pressure. Within this I believe that Ash Greninja should have a healthy effect on the metagame as a consistent, but punishable balance breaker.



I wouldn't really be the person to call Tornadus-Therian a broken Pokemon as of right now. Whilst the pressure that it provides with Knock Off + U-turn is great, it still has plenty of switchins that are often based on the situation, and Tornadus-Therian can be pressured in the right way such that it is unable to make great progress vs the targets that it would otherwise be able to chip down with hazard pressure. Checks like Heatran, Rotom-Wash and Zapdos all have excellent ways of punishing Tornadus-Therian's best ways of wearing things down, and the increase in usage of faster Pokemon like Dragapult and Mega Lopunny also put Tornadus-Therian in a lesser place than when it was suspected due to the lack of a speed advantage that Tornadus-Therian would otherwise have against most bulky offense builds. Whilst this is a lot less clear to me than compared to Ash Greninja, I do believe that Tornadus-Therian does lie below the threshold to which I would consider a Pokemon to be broken.

Potential removals



As much as suspecting some Pokemon down would be nice, and I think that suspecting Ash Greninja will change how Cinderace plays quite a bit, at the moment I do feel like Cinderace is a tad too much for the metagame at the moment. Whilst Cinderace isn't too hard to play around offensively, defensively it can be very nightmarish to deal with the amount of sets that Cinderace can pull out at any one moment.

4a Pivot

This is probably what most people would consider to be the best Cinderace right now. 4a Pivot can be very frustrating to deal with in the long run, as most of its answers, Gliscor, Heatran, Slowbro and Hippowdon, are either punished heavily by one of its moves, such as Gunk Shot, or are exploitable by being U-turned on into something that can pressure these Pokemon, like Dracovish, Weavile or Mega Latias. Alongside this fairly limited pool of answers is the fairly limited amount of pressure that can be put on Cinderace, mostly due to Heavy-Duty Boots but also the lack of punishes for U-turn on some of these Pokemon. Hippowdon and Slowbro can gladly run Rocky Helmet to get some chip off on Cinderace, but neither have the ability to stop Cinderace from wearing these Pokemon down, either with a Gunk Shot poison or U-turn with Stealth Rock up. It can be very difficult to get your side against Cinderace without faster countermeasures like Dragapult, or Scarf Landorus-T.

Darkinium Z Bulk Up

If 4a Pivot was annoying diversity wise, this is the one variant that can straight up strike through all of those counters and just make the entire thing situational. Whilst Cinderace taking more chip from hazards does make this variant less effective sometimes, it can also be considerably more effective when positioned correctly, especially against standard answers like Slowbro. The mix-up of Sucker Punch and the sudden ability to go for a full on attack with the Z move is genuinely tough to predict and due to the nature of Sucker Punch can spell disaster for a misplay. Gliscor is also no longer a consistent answer to this one Bulk Up has been revealed as it has barely any way to hit Cinderace. If there's a reason I'd want to suspect Cinderace, this would probably be the set I would list as being the most unhealthy.

Bulk Up /w Boots

This one can just get annoying to deal with, although it is less effective than the other two sets. The freedom of the third coverage move on this set makes it very difficult to get a consistent answer depending on what the team wants to deal with first. Gunk Shot variants have considerably better matchups against Slowbro and Tapu Fini, but have to deal with Heatran being a near-on hard wall to the set. High Jump Kick variants do not have to deal with Heatran but are often walled hard by Slowbro. But this is still a very potent option especially with the amount of support Cinderace has at its disposal, with yet again Dracovish being an excellent partner to bully Heatran, and other more balance oriented picks like Gliscor and Mega Latias can deal with it and Toxapex for Cinderace.

All of this combined leaves me with doubt about whether Cinderace should be considered healthy or not. It may just be very powerful, or it could actually be busted. I think this may be a matter of time before Cinderace is pushed over the edge.



I don't consider this Pokemon to be exactly a top tier threat, but I do believe that the influence that this Pokemon has on the builder is toxic against balances to say the least. The very limited check pool of PDef Ferrothorn / Bunker Toxapex / Helmet Tangrowth / Slowbro isn't exactly a very healthy thing for a consistent playstyle to deal with, and I believe that the continued rise in usage of Gliscor and Heatran don't really do these balances many favours to deal with Dracovish easily. More niche Pokemon like Gastrodon and Seismitoad are also heavily pressured by Dracovish, especially when in combination with another Fire type like Heatran or Rotom-Heat. This is more of an "annoying MU fish" Pokemon that I don't really feel is healthy due to the lack of consistent counterplay that more bulky styles have.

Potential additions

not a kokoloko - irrelevant

This one is definitely going to be controversial, but I believe that Zamazenta is a potential Pokemon to be suspected into National Dex. The regular form for Zamazenta, even with Choice Band, has a fair few decent resists in the metagame that are quite splashable right now. It is completely walled by Gliscor and Zapdos, and Landorus-Therian, Clefable, Tapu Fini, Slowbro and Toxapex are all excellent pivots that are somewhat difficult for the regular form of Zamazenta to deal with. Psychium Z + Howl is a good way to get past some of these but it makes things like Tangrowth and Clefable better answers to you in the long run. Not only that, but it struggles with faster mons like Dragapult in the metagame that can otherwise act as an excellent revenge killer to Zamazenta and potentially even hard switch in if it isn't carrying Crunch, the same way Aegislash could do. However, I do believe that Zamazenta's natural bulk may push it over the edge, and so I am not entirely set on the opinion of dropping it just yet.

This is another awkward Pokemon - however this time I am more towards the idea of keeping it out of the metagame. Last time Darmanitan-Galar was legal, it often forced bulky Water types onto teams that sometimes had no business in actually checking Darmanitan-Galar. Choice Band variants were also capable of straight up OHKOing common pivots like Toxapex with Earthquake in response to the Regenerator cores that popped up to deal with GDarm predictions. Protect Heatran was also a great scout but the main thing I don't want to see for the metagame is tons of Protect spam due to GDarm being very difficult to hard answer without knowing the move it's locked into.



This Pokemon probably won't be healthy, but I do believe there is decent enough counterplay so that the idea of suspecting this Pokemon back down to OU can be explored. Firstly, the rise of Flying types like Gliscor and Zapdos give some punishment to Urshifu clicking any of its moves but Wicked Blow, and the amount of legal Dark resists in the metagame are high, due to the inclusion of the Tapus and Magearna. However, I do believe that the inclusion of Bulk Up + Z move in the mix makes Urshifu-SS a very tough Pokemon to consistently deal with and this is why I'd vote to keep the mon barred from the metagame.

And finally...

Banish zone



Easily the most unhealthy discussable mon out of the lot. Gliscor rising in usage doesn't really do much for it when it can just Mash raise / Zen flinch it.

 

[Jordy]

Just posting here to let everyone know that we'll be voting on this subject over Sunday / Monday. I'm also happy to announce that BaconEatinAssassin will be joining us on the Rotating Council for this round! Expect this thread to stay open for another ~24 hours.

 

[Lameflame]

I have a few thoughts of my own to add to the discussion before the thread closes. It has been refreshing to see people take positions on things that might be controversial and argue for them -- hearing people's genuine opinions is what makes these threads worth reading and it really doesn’t happen enough.

Generally speaking, I don’t think anything is broken in the current metagame, nor do I think that any one of the five previously banned mons are broken independent of any metagame they would ever be placed in. That does not necessarily mean I think all five should return. For me, I look at this process as a way of determining the right balance between allowing as many of these Pokemon back as we feasibly can, while keeping out the mons that individually (or in some combination) cause the teambuilding strain we are trying to avoid repeating. So with that in mind, I don’t want to project too far into the future as to what future metas will look like or when I think certain mons should be tested or not, since it’s all speculation and the state of the present metagame is all I have to rely on.

- I personally do not think this Pokemon was broken in the past, nor is it likely to be broken in the current metagame. There is ample counterplay for this mon both offensively and defensively, most of which have already been mentioned in the thread. The argument that it would only add to the current state of hazard control woes is definitely a valid point, but for me, I just don’t think the hazards issue is so suffocating right now that we should keep Ash Greninja banned purely because it is another spiker.

- I previously referred to this mon as a “necessary evil” for the tier, which in some ways has proven to be correct, and in other ways, has not. The splashability of bulky defog spreads was never something I looked at as unhealthy for the tier, and the absence of those sets is noticeable to say the least. On the other hand, I don’t think mons like Kartana and Mega Medicham have gone off the rails by each losing a (soft) check in the way I thought they could. I wouldn’t drop Torn into the metagame solely for being another splashable Defog user for the same reason that I wouldn’t ban Ash Greninja solely for being another good Spiker – they’re definitely valid points, but not deciding factors one way or the other. I personally don’t think Torn is unhealthy enough to definitely keep it out of the tier, so I would support a retest either now or sometime in the next cycle, but I am more skeptical about it being healthy now than I was prior. The fact that Torn inevitably knocks off most of its non-mega checks, rendering those mons less capable of dealing with other threats they’re meant to cover, is the most concerning trait Torn brings with it as far as I’m concerned.

- I don’t think this mon is unmanageable on its own, but in all honesty there isn’t much I can say with certainty as to how this mon would play in this tier. It wasn’t around for a long time, it did lose some of its best partners, and I’m sure it hasn’t been fully explored with Z-moves or other offensive cores to its fullest potential. Urshifu+Kyurem looks difficult to deal with on paper, but arguments “on paper” aren’t worth much. I do think this mon is what pushed the older metagame into the state it was in, as the types of cores you could use to scout Urshifu’s STABs didn’t always hold up against the rest of the metagame or its partners. Whether that would be true now isn’t something I can say one way or another.

Ultimately it makes no difference to me which mon(s) are retested first, or the order we test things in. I will say that since Ash Greninja is seemingly non-controversial, I wouldn’t be against testing it + Tornadus-T to fairly assess the hazard control issue with a Spiker + a Defogger together (or even Ash Greninja + GDarm, to assess whether counterplay for both can exist period, even without the other 3 needing to be accounted for). Doing them one at a time is fine too, but aside from Urshifu I don’t think there’s a lot of mystery surrounding what the other mons do in the tier, so it’s just a suggestion for the sake of efficiency.

 

[Jordy]

Hallo everyone, as promised, the council has voted on what to suspect test next. Here are the results!

We also had a question about any other potential concerns. Here's what some people had to say.

--

So with that all done, we will be suspect testing Ash-Greninja. You can expect to see more about that soon! We will also be keeping an eye on Cinderace and Dracovish given discussion here and comments on the survey. This thread will now be locked.