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With Dynamax around its pretty only going to force the opponent to Dynamax which I guess is good but it would be better if you could actually kill the target. Its also can't trap M-Metagross if it has Bullet Punch which is annoying. When Dynamax gets banned I can see it becoming a way better trapper than it is now. I will admit it does trap Magnezone which is great for obvious reasons.
Now on to some great Mons that I've been using.
Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Light Metal
EVs: 248 HP / 104 Def / 156 SpD
Impish Nature
- Curse
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off / U-turn
- Roost
God damn this thing so good. This thing is such a good check to M-Metagross, Zygarde, Genesect. Sure Metagross and Genesect fire moves but they're only doing it to beat this thing. Curse is run over SD so It beat Setup Zygarde more effectively. Choosing between Knock Off and U-turn is really just on the team. Knock Off lets you beat Aegislash and remove leftovers from Toxapex and Corviknight, U-turn is great because of how slow you are and you trap Magnezone if you have a Dugtrio or HP Ground Ditto in the back. The EVs are to take a 2 Thousand Arrows from Adamant Zygarde after Rocks. Ok I'm gonna say it, I think this is the best Bug/Steel.
Since most Grasses and Water are investing in a shit ton of Def instead of SpD to deal with Dracovish, Ash-Greninja is actually a huge threat because it like needs 1 spike to change who can switch into it pre-Ash form.
Well, OU Viability rankings is out and Corviknight is the only S tier right now. Well in Natdex its most defining set (Sub Bulk Up) is extremely match reliant because its completely invalidated by Magnezone who 4 times resists its one move and trap it so It has to run Shed Shell with Dugtrio/Ditto. Now without Magnezone in the way it can actually be somewhat threatening so I guess thats good. However its best set right now is Defog because it performs that role quite well with U-turn to protect itself.
This thing is really bad. I don't know why I always see it on the ladder because Knock Off is just around everywhere corner so it just can't cut it as a wall. its funny using this thing as setup fodder for my Subtoxic DD Zygarde lol.
Lol someone linked me this and I find it great for some reason. Chansey Offense has always kinda been a thing but it often struggled because of the passive nature of Chansey. Well with the Teleport buff, it can actually aid Wallbreakers like M-Metagross and Zygarde to deal with a poor Aegislash who thought it could come in and setup on it.
Although this is a theoretical and I don’t want to bring up “what is natdex” again, would it be possible to transfer Healer + Teleport Chansey to a Gen 8 game, put it in with another NC Chansey, and let the new breeding mechanics do their thing and have Teleport + NC Chansey? It’s a thought.
This is the precipice of what I was getting on before, before I derailed my post by trying to be funny. Why not just allow everything, when applied to SwSh's legal standards, to exist? If we're going to allow Clangorous Soulblaze and Clangorous Soul on the same team, why shouldn't we just allow Chansey with Natural Cure and Teleport.
No, this doesnt work for the same reason we cant have No Guard Machamp Fissure. Apparently you cant change hidden abilities as they are coded to be 'superior' to the other abilities.
Is it too early to make a DYNAMAX IS GONE post? Because dynamax's ban is near, lets be real.
Winners Almost every single wall in the tier
A lack of a get out of jail button will have a peculiar effect on this metagame. Walls like Toxapex and Tangrowth will fare much better since the Pokemon they are supposed to check no longer can break through them unfairly. Mega Evolutions
Mega Blastoise will probably become one of the premier setup sweepers since he can setup without dynamax. A lack of ditto that dynamax's ban will cause means that his sweeps won't be able to stopped as easily. Z Moves Users
Z Moves users now are not at as much of a disadvantage, since now everyone has an equal playing field. I think Kommo-O stands out the most as the double omniboost he can now setup will be a real threat. Unaware Users
Unaware users have middling bulk to make up for their ability to disregard boosts. Without dynamax they are more liable to being able to stomach hits. Dugtrio
Dugtrio, who does not benefit from Dynamax at all, will have an easier time trapping opponents who can't turn giga at a button press. Stall
Yay Stall is no longer a troll option! Its just...bad now, I guess, similar to the state it was at the end of SM. The only noteworthy shit we got this gen was Deoxys-Defense (who we have found to be useless) and Corsola-Galar, who isn't honestly that bulky. Sub Toxic Aegislash is really good but its not unique to Stall either. Dynamax ban is a monumental buff to it but without a way to handle an ever-increasing offensive meta I simply cannot see Stall becoming a dominant playstyle anytime soon. I mean look at the power creep. Mega Sableye is too squishy these days. Mega Metagross's presence in the tier terrifies Chansey and Clefable. Stall needs a number of truly sturdy walls to resurface honestly, particularly a genuinely bulky Unaware wall and more Defog users. Monkey
Darm will find it easy to pick off the majority of the tier since they can't double their HP at will.
Losers Max Airstream Users
Hahahaha! Abusers of an unfair and unhealthy mechanic are kinda gonna fall out. Kartana will still be viable, of course, but I can't see Gyarados remaining as good. Flyinium Z will be alright but not crazy. Togekiss, on the other hand, will fall out of favor. Fast. As far as I know Salamence has no real good offensive potential and Wish Mence is....bad. The age of mons carrying Hidden Power Flying for that sweet Moxie boost is over.
:melmetal-gigantamax::snorlax-gigantamax::centiskorch-gigantamax: Gigantamax
Granted Gigantamax was just a design change on bad mons, and the exclusive moves they got were usually worse than the normal ones, but they lose a big part of their individuality. Dynamax-Reliant Setup Sweepers
Pokemon like Magearna who fucking snowballed outta control after one Shift Gear are gonna find it harder to make do with BoltBeam coverage. :tapukoko: Dual Screens / Hyper Offense
Oh man both playstyles rightly got a huge nerf now, thank fucking jesus. Other playstyles besides Dual Screens + Shift Gear GG and Electric Terrain + Max Knuckle may actually finally usable. Lol who am I kidding? But seriously its finally a crippling a nerf to these playstyles who will remain incredibly powerful but (hopefully) not quite as meta defining. Sand
Sand is already dead until Vish gets Sand Rush for the reasons I stated earlier but Excadrill losing the ability to set up his own sand and sandaconda losing gigantamax hurts. Sun
Torkoal doesnt have any recovery so hes liable to get killed if you dont watch it. Which leaves you with Ninetales and MCY as your sole remaining drought users lol. Weather Ball buff for Venusaur is good but now he cant set his own sun, and his offenses aren't that good without a growth boost. Rain
Since the majority of the swift swim users now cannot set their own rain Barraskewda is now useless. Also Beartic I guess, his stats are actually pretty good. Unfortunately, Pelipper is super hardy so its not like Rain has any trouble keeping weather throughout the match like sun or sand lacking hippowdon. Hail
Poor Hail, the removal of dynamax will be a huge a dropkick in the nuts for Hail and Ice in general, which is a shame cause this gen was initially shaping up to be the renassiance of Ice types. Kyurem-Black got DD and Ice STAB, Avalugg and Vanilluxe got Aurora Veil, Hail finally got a reliable sweeper/pivot in Eiscue, and Darm exists. But yeah no Kyub was banned, Darm is about to be banned and basically has nothing to do with Hail and the larger ice type, Eiscue turned out to be little more than an annoying gimmick, Mega Abomasnow is still useless as a hail setter, scarf abomasnow is not good, and Vanilluxe doesnt have the recovery or offensive movepool to become a contender for a viable hail setter. Avalugg can't fit Aurora Veil on his moveset anyways, leaving Ninetales to be the sole hail setter in Hail. Its sad, really, because Max Hailstorm was at least alright but for some reason Game Freak has a hard on for making potentially viable hail sweepers (sandslash, beartic, arctovish) have unusable speed even when boosted. And throughout the gens hail has always been somewhat of a joke, even when Stallrein existed. I think it has something to do with the weakness of the ice type and the fact that only ice types directly benefit from hail while multiple types benefit from sand, sun and rain, but its really telling that an ideally built hail team seems identical to a monotype ice team. In a meta where Darmanitan, Metagross, Genesect, and Aegislash rule, Hail has no chance. Game Freak is an abject failure at game balancing.
Anyways judging by the previous unbans of and I think with dynamax beimg banned its the perfect type to unban who would only be ok in this meta with access to max ooze. His strength and wallbreaking power really is not as amazing as it was two gens ago, especially considering the fact that hes squishy, restricted to LO, and is invalidated by yeti. He could be really powerful, but ppl said the same thing about Gensect (healthy place in meta) and Deoxys-Defense (literally completely useless)
so I'm excited to hear your opinions on this matter.
What's next?
Well first off down the road I fully expect a Mega Metagross suspect, I guarantee you that his prowess will become more evident in a few days when he has few switch ins in the tier besides Mega Scizor. Hes also way too bulky for this tier (80/150/110) with great flammable STAB and defensive typing.
I also expect a Darmanitan-Galar quick ban/suspect and I only say quick ban cause regular OU suddenly quick banned him. It is generally agreed that hes nuts and too OP but the ban of dynamax will be a massive overall net loss in bulk for the tier which Darm will love.
Finally, I think that down the road there will be potential for talks of a Pheromosa unban even though it may not happen. Even though i made fun of the anti ban argument before i think no max knuckle will be odd for it. I dont think she will be unbanned due to her speed since she is basically genesect on steroids
I disagree with the mega meta+Darmanitan suspect/bans. They're great, but especially in the case of Darm, his biggest niche was that regular OU was much much slower and there wasn't many good priority users or priority at all running around. He's nowhere near as good in Natdex given how easily he is revenge killed and his scarf set is basically mandatory, making him more predictable. Meta is also amazing, but not suspect worthy.
Guys can we calm down on these types of posts. Just saying Post-Dynamax will be a far different metagame than the one we have now so anything we consider broken right now could be completely fine when the that Metagame comes.
This set can clean the frailer offensive teams quite easily while also allowing it run a adamant nature to deal with bulkier teams. Meteor Mash can also potentially get a Atk boast which is great making it even harder to deal with.
Let's not discuss future bans in a post-dynamax meta while the suspect is still underway. Been liking the discussion thus far but let's keep the focus on the current metagame.
I disagree with the mega meta+Darmanitan suspect/bans. They're great, but especially in the case of Darm, his biggest niche was that regular OU was much much slower and there wasn't many good priority users or priority at all running around. He's nowhere near as good in Natdex given how easily he is revenge killed and his scarf set is basically mandatory, making him more predictable. Meta is also amazing, but not suspect worthy.
Um no Metagross (will) be suspect worthy and Im about to go into great detail about it.
Mega Metagross has close to no flaws. People love to imply that he was only banned in Gen 7 because people wanted to use the Tapus but thats not true at all. Mega Metagross is basically the perfect physical sweeper and has little to no drawbacks.
First off 145 Attack + Tough Claws + two highly flammable STABs in Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt is nuts, no matter how you look at it. However, Meta gets Bullet Punch, which is STAB and boosted by Tough Claws, along with Agility so speed isn't a problem. BTW he also has a great speed tier.
His offensive movepool is really good and he can choose his counters. Hammer-Arm, Thunder Punch, Earthquake, Bullet Punch, Ice Punch, Grass Knot, all of these moves along with Zen Headbutt and Meteor Mash can hit the entirety of the tier for at least neutral damage.
Next, for an AoA Pokemon his defenses are simply unfair. He has 80/150/110, which is bulkier than Melmetal. Because of this Mega Metagross has no issue taking hits even without any investment such as Thousand Arrows, Flare Blitz or a stray Dark Pulse from Blastoise. Knock Off isn't very effective against him either. The people who can hit him super-effectively (Ttar, Aegislash, Drill, Darm, Genesect, non-scarf victini) really do not have the means to switch into him. No one really counters him. The closest I think of on the top of my head is physically defensive Corsola who is 3HKO'd by Meteor Mash. Okay I guess Mega Scizor and Mega Slowbro do but other than that he is literally free to wreck havoc on shit.
He's a literal offensive godsend who is usable on literally any teamcomp and is effective against nearly any team comp since like no mon besides the aformentioned two can facetank him. Zapdos? Ice Punch will kill you if the flinch from Zen Headbutt doesn't. Corviknight doesnt like Thunder Punch. Mew and Corsola dont like Meteor Mash. He is incredibly centralizing (arguably more so than darm). Theres a reason he's seen on almost every single team atm and that's not just because of his versatility.
Heavy Duty Boots made alot of SR weak mons viable this gen. One of them surprisingly is Flareon.
Flareon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Flare Blitz
- Yawn
It’s not a top tier or anything, but thanks to HDB it can fill the role of a cleric that checks LO Clef, Genesect, and puts a halt on SG Magearna and Offensive QD Volc better than Heatran due to its pure fire typing. This also lets it check Mega Zard Y. Wish lets it support its teammates and heal itself. Yawn forces switches on incoming Landos, Greninjas, and said setup sweepers. I think it might have a niche once Dynamaxing leaves.
Calcs:
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Flareon: 136-162 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Flareon: 198-234 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Flareon: 103-122 (30.8 - 36.5%) -- 63.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Flareon: 63-75 (18.8 - 22.4%) -- possible 5HKO
+1 252 SpA Magearna All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Flareon: 209-247 (62.5 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Magearna Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Flareon: 132-156 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I put a shit load of effort into that post so I'll copy paste it in a few days to get discussion going again.
Um no Metagross (will) be suspect worthy and Im about to go into great detail about it.
Mega Metagross has close to no flaws. People love to imply that he was only banned in Gen 7 because people wanted to use the Tapus but thats not true at all. Mega Metagross is basically the perfect physical sweeper and has little to no drawbacks.
First off 145 Attack + Tough Claws + two highly flammable STABs in Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt is nuts, no matter how you look at it. However, Meta gets Bullet Punch, which is STAB and boosted by Tough Claws, along with Agility so speed isn't a problem. BTW he also has a great speed tier.
His offensive movepool is really good and he can choose his counters. Hammer-Arm, Thunder Punch, Earthquake, Bullet Punch, Ice Punch, Grass Knot, all of these moves along with Zen Headbutt and Meteor Mash can hit the entirety of the tier for at least neutral damage.
Next, for an AoA Pokemon his defenses are simply unfair. He has 80/150/110, which is bulkier than Melmetal. Because of this Mega Metagross has no issue taking hits even without any investment such as Thousand Arrows, Flare Blitz or a stray Dark Pulse from Blastoise. Knock Off isn't very effective against him either. The people who can hit him super-effectively (Ttar, Aegislash, Drill, Darm, Genesect, non-scarf victini) really do not have the means to switch into him. No one really counters him. The closest I think of on the top of my head is physically defensive Corsola who is 3HKO'd by Meteor Mash. Okay I guess Mega Scizor and Mega Slowbro do but other than that he is literally free to wreck havoc on shit.
He's a literal offensive godsend who is usable on literally any teamcomp and is effective against nearly any team comp since like no mon besides the aformentioned two can facetank him. Zapdos? Ice Punch will kill you if the flinch from Zen Headbutt doesn't. Corviknight doesnt like Thunder Punch. Mew and Corsola dont like Meteor Mash. He is incredibly centralizing (arguably more so than darm). Theres a reason he's seen on almost every single team atm and that's not just because of his versatility.
Given what the mods said, I won't continue this further, but when the meta develops more (and I'm honestly leaning more to you being right after looking in to it deeper) I will definitely discuss this further since you put a lot of thought in to it. My point on Darm still stands though. Ironically, the existence of MMeta actually also deters Darm switch ins/revenge killing because Meta also gets boosted STAB bullet punch off of that ridiculous attack stat.
For more OT; How are people enjoying Natdex versus regular OU? I for one started only regular OU (ran a Darm U-turn momentum team to great effect) but it left a sour taste in my mouth given how many more viable Pokemon were left out because of it. I do happen to enjoy NatDex a lot more. More variety of playstyles. There are crazy threats like the aforementioned MMeta, but even things like stall have way more options (looking at you Chansey). Less barren, more options for teambuilding. Right now, regular Gen 8 OU probably has less variety than Gen 7 OU in it's entirety.
I haven't played this tier that much, just to get the reqs for the dynamax and gigantamax suspect test, but I can say, that without any doubt, this tier is one of the most fun non-random generated team tiers that I have ever played beacuse of the infinity of options and wide variety of pokemons that is in the tier.
Conclusion: this tier is really fun
Given what the mods said, I won't continue this further, but when the meta develops more (and I'm honestly leaning more to you being right after looking in to it deeper) I will definitely discuss this further since you put a lot of thought in to it. My point on Darm still stands though. Ironically, the existence of MMeta actually also deters Darm switch ins/revenge killing because Meta also gets boosted STAB bullet punch off of that ridiculous attack stat.
For more OT; How are people enjoying Natdex versus regular OU? I for one started only regular OU (ran a Darm U-turn momentum team to great effect) but it left a sour taste in my mouth given how many more viable Pokemon were left out because of it. I do happen to enjoy NatDex a lot more. More variety of playstyles. There are crazy threats like the aforementioned MMeta, but even things like stall have way more options (looking at you Chansey). Less barren, more options for teambuilding. Right now, regular Gen 8 OU probably has less variety than Gen 7 OU in it's entirety.
I think its wack right now but I knew this would he fixed once dynamax was inevitably banned.
I do wish they would receive more community feedback for some of the decisions they made. Nobody seemed to mind that unreleased abilities were allowed and I saw people being mostly unhappy when they were banned. (Yes I know, cartridge accuracy, but tiers dont have to follow this rule. Randoms certainly dont and that OM is inherently more accurate to cartridge than ours)
But overall once dmax is banned natdex will basically be gen 7 OU with 30 or so new mons to choose from, which is very good.
If you're playing stall, rocks should never get up; if they do, it's probably because you don't have hazard control for the rocker your opponent has. That means they are either using a niche/uncommon rocker, or your team is not well prepared. Anyway, point is that Pyukumuku almost always avoids the 2HKO with no hazards on the field.
Quag should not be used as a water resist anyway, because it literally isn't one. Even if you're using Pyukumuku, you're free to use another water resist. Mantine is cool, which serves as a Heatran check too. Tangrowth is a good anti-breaker, checking stuff like Bulu, Zygarde, and Kartana. For what it's worth, Appletun can avoid the 2HKO from banded fishious rend in the rain. Alomomola walls without rain (or rain without band), and it can even knock off choice band.
Anyway, I agree that Darmanitan-G is problematic for the reasons you've provided... but I just want to point out that you aren't forced to choose between having a Dracovish check and a Darm check.
One thing I noticed is that Mega-Blastoise sits really high in usage. That Shell Smash set is crazy strong and hard to check defensively and offensively.
Alright, going off of National Dex Beta we can make a Nat Dex UU!
Pokemon that are currently OU by usage (Going off of the National Dex Ladder not the Beta) and therefore banned from National Dex UU. This list uses the new 4.52% Cut Off
(Why)
Everything else is allowed (For now)
Notable Pokemon Admittedly I don't know how this works because Ash Gren is OU but if this is allowed in this theoretical tier it should become a top metagame threat with its extreme versatility and Protean One of the best Dmax abusers that we have didn't make the cut in OU. Have fun with this down here. It's partner in crime is allowed too Lele may have been nerfed but a lot of its best checks are locked away in OU and its still very dangerous in its own right. Trapping Time Expect this to be fantastic with Band, SR, and DD sets. Mega is here too. Double Boosting sets will likely be even more dangerous with no Ditto around to revenge kill them Huge Power mons coming on through. This tier is looking insanely powerful already. A great physical wall in OU that will likely be a big threat down here as well. Yeah this tier is jacked. Curse and all out attacker sets should be good here. Offensive and Defensive sets both look pretty dangerous, although a lot of the things that the Wallbreaker LO set was good for are in OU so we will see. Band V-Create Time Offensive teams are looking better and better with Deoxys-D hazard support backing them up and all of these absurdly powerful and fast breakers available. Sub+NP and all that jazz should be quite good.
There's so many others I couldn't list them all. Have fun with what could be an insane tier if we decide to support it.
Again, National Dex UU is something that is not currently planned in the foreseeable future and I would like this thread to stick to NatDex OU discussion only. If a substantial enough support is seen, we can maybe consider the idea down the line, but I do not want to see this thread / discord messages flooded with the idea / question of a National Dex UU format. Please and Thanks.
Happy New Years everyone and let's hope for a year of continued support of this sub-forum!
Again, National Dex UU is something that is not currently planned in the foreseeable future and I would like this thread to stick to NatDex OU discussion only. If a substantial enough support is seen, we can maybe consider the idea down the line, but I do not want to see this thread / discord messages flooded with the idea / question of a National Dex UU format. Please and Thanks.
Happy New Years everyone and let's hope for a year of continued support of this sub-forum!
Alright, going off of National Dex Beta we can make a Nat Dex UU!
Pokemon that are currently OU by usage (Going off of the National Dex Ladder not the Beta) and therefore banned from National Dex UU. This list uses the new 4.52% Cut Off
(Why)
Everything else is allowed (For now)
Notable Pokemon Admittedly I don't know how this works because Ash Gren is OU but if this is allowed in this theoretical tier it should become a top metagame threat with its extreme versatility and Protean One of the best Dmax abusers that we have didn't make the cut in OU. Have fun with this down here. It's partner in crime is allowed too Lele may have been nerfed but a lot of its best checks are locked away in OU and its still very dangerous in its own right. Trapping Time Expect this to be fantastic with Band, SR, and DD sets. Mega is here too. Double Boosting sets will likely be even more dangerous with no Ditto around to revenge kill them Huge Power mons coming on through. This tier is looking insanely powerful already. A great physical wall in OU that will likely be a big threat down here as well. Yeah this tier is jacked. Curse and all out attacker sets should be good here. Offensive and Defensive sets both look pretty dangerous, although a lot of the things that the Wallbreaker LO set was good for are in OU so we will see. Band V-Create Time Offensive teams are looking better and better with Deoxys-D hazard support backing them up and all of these absurdly powerful and fast breakers available. Sub+NP and all that jazz should be quite good.
There's so many others I couldn't list them all. Have fun with what could be an insane tier if we decide to support it.
Good post but i think its incredibly important that every one who reads this knows that Deoxys-Defense is a trap. As of Gen 8 Mew has Spikes, so Deoxys's previous niche of being a bulky psychic type with both hazards is gone. Even then, most bulky psychic types rely on a powerful defensive ability to compensate for bad defensive typing. Gothitelle has Shadow Tag, Reuniclus has Magic Guard, Slowbro has Regenerator and a Mega, Cresselia and Uxie get Levitate. Deoxys gets Pressure which is pretty useless for a lead and isnt unique.
Deoxys Defense has no role to speak of in Pokemon outside of using Stealth Rock and Spikes. Mew does that but also he has good offenses for a lead and has more versatility. Deoxys is slow af and his bulk is cripppled by his HP.
Dont use Deoxys ever. He fucking sucks. In every situation Mew is better, literally everything Deoxys does Mew does much better and more effectively
Good post but i think its incredibly important that every one who reads this knows that Deoxys-Defense is a trap. As of Gen 8 Mew has Spikes, so Deoxys's previous niche of being a bulky psychic type with both hazards is gone. Even then, most bulky psychic types rely on a powerful defensive ability to compensate for bad defensive typing. Gothitelle has Shadow Tag, Reuniclus has Magic Guard, Slowbro has Regenerator and a Mega, Cresselia and Uxie get Levitate. Deoxys gets Pressure which is pretty useless for a lead and isnt unique.
Deoxys Defense has no role to speak of in Pokemon outside of using Stealth Rock and Spikes. Mew does that but also he has good offenses for a lead and has more versatility. Deoxys is slow af and his bulk is cripppled by his HP.
Dont use Deoxys ever. He fucking sucks. In every situation Mew is better, literally everything Deoxys does Mew does much better and more effectively
My g why do you rotate pfps of Aveeno lotion models every three hours like dood
In order to make this a valid not- shitpost I guess i better reply to someone else
Good post but i think its incredibly important that every one who reads this knows that Deoxys-Defense is a trap. As of Gen 8 Mew has Spikes, so Deoxys's previous niche of being a bulky psychic type with both hazards is gone. Even then, most bulky psychic types rely on a powerful defensive ability to compensate for bad defensive typing. Gothitelle has Shadow Tag, Reuniclus has Magic Guard, Slowbro has Regenerator and a Mega, Cresselia and Uxie get Levitate. Deoxys gets Pressure which is pretty useless for a lead and isnt unique.
Deoxys Defense has no role to speak of in Pokemon outside of using Stealth Rock and Spikes. Mew does that but also he has good offenses for a lead and has more versatility. Deoxys is slow af and his bulk is cripppled by his HP.
Dont use Deoxys ever. He fucking sucks. In every situation Mew is better, literally everything Deoxys does Mew does much better and more effectively
IIRC cant Deoxys-D run a pressure stall set?
I did make a triple pressure stall team with zapdos, moltres, and kyurem and saw good success with it. The advent of heavydutyboots really lets you play more recklessly with that style, and even though deo-d isnt weak to rocks or anything being able to ignore webs and tspikes would be excellent if your goal with him is to pressure stall, no?
So with the usage stats out, let's break down the Pokemon with 4.52% usage or higher, why they're a certain rank, and if they deserve it or not.
(Note: I'll be using the 1760 stats, as I do believe high ladder currently is the most representative of the meta at the current moment, since low ladder tend to use Ash teams for example.
#1 Ditto
Not surprising to see at all, since Dynamax is still allowed. Ditto is the best counterplay against Dynamax, and it's very easy to slap it onto a team.
#2 Kartana
Also not surprising at all. Kartana is by far the best abuser of Dynamax because of Max Airstream boosting its speed. If Kartana gets a kill with Max Aistream, it basically gets a free Dragon Dance because of Beast Boost, making it very easy to sweep through teams. Little to no actual counterplay exists to this (outside Ditto, which is #1), so it's definitely worthy of being number 2 on the ladder.
#3 Zygarde
Zygarde is also one of the better abusers of Dynamax, with Thousand Arrows turning into Max Quake, which boosts its SpDef. This coupled with the double dance set (DD + Coil) makes it a terrifying sweeper. Even without Dynamax though, Zygarde is still an amazing Pokemon, being very potent on the dual screens playstyle, and having numerous of sets to get through its checks and counters (just like it did back in SM OU). Overall, very good Pokemon.
#4 Magearna
Magearna is still one of the most threatening sweepers in the metagame. Its amazing coverage, solid bulk and great typing are all factors that turn it into a menace to deal with. Dual dance sets (Shift Gear + Calm Mind) with BoltBeam is an amazing set, especially now that it basically gets 3 Z-Moves in a match because of Dynamax. Soul Heart only turns this monster into an even more terrifying sweeper. Doesn't enjoy Aegislash that much, but I've been screwing around with Ghostium Z sets, which can put in a surprising amount of work, blowing through Mega Metagross, Aegislash and the occasional Jirachi.
#5 Blastoise-Mega
Mega Blastoise turned into one of the deadliest sweepers in the metagame since it got Shell Smash. Its good Fighting/Dark/Ice coverage hits almost everything in the meta, only truly countered by Unaware Clefable and Tapu Fini (Chansey gets 2HKO'd by +2 Aura Sphere). Its amazing on dual screens, giving it more setup opportunities in a match. Can sweep many teams under the right conditions.
#6 Dracovish
Don't think anyone's really surprised by this. Dracovish is one of the hardest Pokemon to switch into. You're basically forced to either run a water immunity, or two very sturdy water resists (like PhysDef Tangrowth and Mega Slowbro). I also think Rain being a lot better in this meta than in regular SWSH is a factor of why I think Dracovish has a lot more potential here. Awesome Pokemon, but I do think people will start prepping more for it (more Seismitoad/Gastrodon/Jellicent), so while #6 seems deserving as of this moment, I can definitely see its usage going downhill, at least a bit.
#7 Landorus-Therian
Despite all of the added power creep, Landorus-Therian remains one of the best Pokemon in the meta imo. Its such a splashable Scarfer, adding so much to each and every team. U-turn, ground and electric immunity, Defog, Rocks.. Being able to check Zygarde and Kartana is amazing. This thing is a very potent Dynamax sweeper as well, with Max Airstream and Max Quake. I think currently Dynamax is what's holding it back, but I do not think #7 is fair for it at all, and I think we'll see this rise to a much higher spot after the Dynamax ban. The king is almost home.
Accurate representation of when Dynamax ban occurs, 2020, colourized.
#8 Ferrothorn
It's Ferrothorn.
#9 Toxapex
It's Toxapex.
#10 Chansey
It's Chansey.
#11 Zapdos
Alright, Zapdos is pretty cool. I've been really liking 3 Atks Roost, as it lets you hit... kinda everything tbh. Discharge is annoying to switch into because of 30% chance paralyzing, Heat Wave and HP Ice hit the likes of Ferrothorn, Zygarde, Tangrowth, Magearna etc. Static makes this thing rlly annoying for physical attackers to actually click moves, like Mega Metagross, Mega Lopunny, or U-turn users like Genesect, Landorus-T etc. Really good, annoying as always.
#12 Grimmsnarl
Deserved? I don't know. Accurate? 100%. Grimmsnarl is the absolute best screen setter we have, having acces to Prankster Screens AND Taunt. Dual Screens just pushes so many 'mons over the edge (thanks Dynamax!), and Grimmsnarl is the traitor along us for that. It speaks for itself why this is so high up. Though some other funny sets like RestTalk BU stab move could put in work, but are generally niche and require good RNG.
#13 Excadrill
Excadrill is a great Pokemon. It abuses Sand really well, and after a SD it can break through a lot of teams. Dynamaxing only makes this thing better, letting it boosts both of its defenses, which is just downright amazing. Its the best Spinner as well rn, and Rapid Spin boosting its Speed only makes this thing less reliant on Sand and makes it even more of a threatening sweeper. SpDef sets are also still fun to check Magearna, Koko, Lele (which is nerfed so Specs Psychic doesn't hit as hard anymore). Corviknight is annoying for it though. #13 is definitely the right spot and should remain here for some time.
#14 Darmanitan-Galar
Why is this not top 10? This thing is lowkey busted as Fire/Ice/Ground coverage is amazing, and legit nothing switches in. Rotom-Wash gets clear 2HKO'd by Band after Rocks, or just gets chipped by scarf U-turn. Really splashable scarfer, as it just offers a lot of breaking power as well as a decent speed tier. Mega Metagross is annoying for it, but unless it has Bullet Punch it can't keep constantly switching in. Really good Pokemon, and I expect this to be at least top 10 next time, or even higher.
#15 Greninja-Ash
Ash Greninja is also more deserving of a higher spot than at least stuff like Zapdos and Excadrill. Ash Greninja does the same thing it always did back in SM, and it's super solid. Water Shuriken is a really appreciated priority move atm, as it really lets you soft check weakened Genesect and Galarian Darmanitan. Really good Spiker, as it forces a lot of switches because the opponent doesn't want you to transform. Especially good on Rain teams as well, and pairs nicely with Dracovish because together they break through pretty much everything bar like Gastrodon. Amazing Pokemon. Strong, fast, strong priority, spiker. Lots of teams appreciate that rn.
#16 Metagross-Mega
Even with Dynamax in the tier, I think this is the best Pokemon in the meta. Its so stupidly strong, so bulky, and its solid speed tier makes it even more great. It has great coverage in Meteor Mash/Zen Headbutt/TPunch/Ice Punch/EQ/Hammer Arm, or even Bullet Punch which is nice now for Galarian Darmanitan or even just picking off weakened threats. The only problem this Pokemon really has is 4MSS, but I think that with everything else it offers it's not that big of a deal. This should have easily been top 5 imo, and hopefully will be after Dynamax ban.
#17 Dragapult
Dragapult is really good, as it offers an amazing speed tier. It outspeed a lot of threats like Ash Greninja and Mega Lopunny, which is quite amazing. Specs and even Band sets have been pretty alright for me, but the best set rn imo is the SubDD set. SubDD with Dragon Darts and Phantom Force, coupled with Ghostium Z (tryna prepare for post Dynamax ban guys) is a really terrifying sweeper. Substitute sets take complete advantage of Chansey, and Dragapult normally threatens quite a lot of switches, letting you set up a Sub safely. I think this Pokemon is pretty good, and while I do think it'll drop a bit in the future, I think #17 is perfectly fine for it atm.
#18 Genesect
I think this is only so low because either people don't know its unbanned or people just don't want to acknowledge it. This Pokemon is so good, it's insane. Band sets have a stupidly powerful U-turn, while Scarf sets offers more utility with the speed tier and a decently good revenge killer. Shift Gear sets are also good, especially paired with Z Moves like Steelium or Firium. 4 Atks is also still amazing, with stuff like HP Ground to get past Heatran. I expect this thing to just shoot up in usage a LOT, as it'll definitely be top 3 post Dynamax ban, trust me.
#19 Corviknight
I hated it at first, but I've come to like it now. Corviknight is a really splashable Defogger, as its solid bulk and typing allows it to stay alive and take a lot of hits throughout the game. It's a solid check to stuff like Kartana if you have Body Press, and you full on counter Mega Metagross if it doesn't carry Thunder Punch. Also, a set consisting of Bulk Up/Power Trip/Roost is imo the only Pokemon that can truly take on every single set of Aegislash, which is just so valuable in itself. Amazing Pokemon as well, and I'm fully expecting this thing to shoot up a couple of ranks later.
#20 Mew
Mew got so much better now that is has access to Spikes. It's an amazing Spiker on so many teams, be it full HO or balance. Its good bulk allows it to check Mega Metagross if it carries Will-O-Wisp, and also check Zygarde if you're carrying Ice Beam. It's still an underappreciated sweeper as well, with Genesis Supernova and Nasty Plot. Though Psychic Terrain being nerfed kind of sucks for it, it can still definitely pull off some sweeps. Mew is awesome and super underused, so I think it should definitely rise up some ranks in the future.
#21 Heatran
Heatran remains a very solid Pokemon because of its ability to set Rocks reliably throughout games, and being able to check threats like Ferrothorn, Magearna, Tapu Lele and Clefable. Offensive sets are still very potent, as Grassium Z sets hits grasses like Seismitoad and Rotom-Wash, while Steelium Z can hit Mega Lati@s. Very solid Pokemon overall, and I definitely can see it going up a few rankings in the future as well.
#22 Tapu Koko
While Specs Tapu Koko definitely took a hit because of the Terrains nerf, Tapu Koko itself still remains pretty solid. Its speed tier, coupled with VoltTurn and its ability to check stuff like Tornadus-T, Greninja and Hawlucha still makes it worthwhile. I've actually fucked around with AV sets, as its actually a pretty decent check to Mega Blastoise, as well as being able to actually take a hit from Ash Greninja. Still very solid Pokemon, though I can see why people aren't using it as much because of the nerf.
#23 Lopunny-Mega
As I stated in one of my earlier posts, this thing is still very good. Great speed tier coupled with spammable STABs is awesome. Dual priority is awesome to check Pokemon like Galarian Darmanitan, Ash Greninja and Dragapult over the course of a game. Not much to say, except that it definitely deserves this spot.
#24 Aegislash
This Pokemon is so good. Like, actually. SubTox takes the crown of being the most obnoxious Pokemon to deal with in the tier, but outside of this you also have to take other sets into account, like 3 Atks and dual dance. I'm so surprised it's this low in usage, as I think it deserved top 5, but I'll even take top 15. I'm fully expecting this thing to rise after the meta settles down, and people will realize how little teams are actually prepared for this monster.
#25 Melmetal
This mon is the goat tbh. Band Melmetal hits super hard, being able to solidly 2HKO resists, and even OHKO resists like Volcarona with Double Iron Bash. It works exceptionally well on Trick Room, and I think Trick Room is saved as a playstyle by this 'mon alone. Its bulky, strong, and can break through a lot of walls. Can be hard to fit onto a team, because outside of breaking it doesn't add a whole lot (low speed, low spdef) but it's still super solid. Sub Lefties is actually fun as well, since you can sub while Heatran switches in, and catch it with an Earthquake the following turn. Definitely give this a try!
#26 Rotom-Wash
This should be way higher. Will-O-Wisp is almost free in this meta, and it's just annoying with its general Volt Switch/status shenanigans. Great hazard remover as well, and the steel resist and ground immunity is super nice for any team rn. For sure solid, and should definitely get more use.
#27 Mawile-Mega
Mega Mawile is still one of the most terrifying Pokemon to switch into. It destroys a lot of slower teams, and will most likely claim two kills minimum in a match. Doesn't need much explaining, it's the same as always (except Dugtrio is kind of annoying).
#28 Tornadus-Therian
Best defoggers in the tier for sure. HDB is so great for it, as well as having a solid speed tier and firing off strong Hurricanes. Firium Z sets are funny to OHKO Mega Metagross and heavily damage Aegislash, but generally inferior to just regular Defog sets imo. U-turn is great, Knock is great, Taunt is great. Solid Pokemon all around, can definitely be higher up later on in the meta. Also amazing Kartana check which will always be great.
#29 Tapu Bulu
Like Koko, its Band sets took a hit. Though not much, as Bulu is stronger than Koko, and Bulu + Magnezone still works really well. SpDef sets are also still alright, though kind of suffer from the loads amount of steel types running around (Mega Metagross, Heatran, Genesect, Corviknight). I think this having higher usage than Rain is a crime, and expect this to not get much higher use later on.
#30 Clefable
Clefable is still great. LO is still threatening, Unaware sets still have amazing utility and support. TWave is annoying as always. Does what it always has done, and will remain one of the better Pokemon in the long run (somehow).
#32 Tangrowth
Amazing Pokemon. Its ability to either check Mega Metagross, Zygarde, Mega Mawile or Ash Greninja, Tapu Koko, Mega Blastoise with either PhysDef or AV sets is just awesome. AV sets also annoy Celesteela because of Knock Off and immunity to Leech Seed. Awesome Pokemon, and hopefully people will realize in the future that this 'mon is just an amazing glue for almost any team.
#34 Corsola-Galar
Why is thing so high? It's nice to check certain physical attackers like physical Genesect, Mega Metagross and Galarian Darmanitan, but it's super exploitable. Greninja, Hydreigon, Substitute and Knock Off/Toxic being way more common in this tier is super bad for it, and generally won't add much to a team because it's too passive or there are just better walls out there (think of Chansey, Clefable, Tangrowth). It has a niche, but doesn't deserve to be this high. I expect (and hope) this thing will drop significantly.
#35 Hawlucha
KokoLucha is back! Hawlucha remains a threatening sweeper, though really doesn't like Aegislash being around. Still a really threatening Pokemon and actually doesn't get revenged by Ditto because of Unburden, which is quite amazing. Though because of Aegislash I'm not expecting this thing to remain that high in rankings, and think this place is fine for it.
#36 Sableye-Mega
Stall is stall. It's good, try it.
#37 Gyarados
Gyarados is still a very solid Dynamax abuser in this meta, and is even more threatening because of Power Whip to hit Rotom-Wash/Seismitoad. I'm expecting this thing to remain good even after Dynamax ban, because of the fact that it can still utilize Flyinium Z with Bounce to break past fat grasses like Tangrowth and Mega Venusaur.
#38 Hydreigon
Hydreigon is very solid. SubNasty is so terrifying, it's insane. It's able to break through a lot of balance cores, and can even opt for Steelium Z to break through Clefable. Roost is also good because it's able to check Ash Greninja that way. Specs is strong, Scarf is niche but can be used to pick off Mega Metagross with enough chip.
Additional quick thoughts
| 46 | Dugtrio | 3.63387% |
This thing should be higher. Traps a lot of stuff and pairs with a lot of Pokemon really nicely.
| 50 | Volcarona | 3.42048% |
Top 3 Dynamax abusers. Insanely good, don't know why it's this low.
| 57 | Tapu Lele | 2.88277% |
I expected this thing to drop but not this much. Specs is still decently powerful and CM Z-Move is aight. I guess Mega Metagross, Genesect and Aegislash really put a number on this, huh.
| 61 | Deoxys-Defense | 2.76796% |
Being outclassed by Mew as a Spiker is pretty bad, though having Pressure is still pretty good in itself. I don't know what to think of this thing, HDB and good hazard removal being common is just hindering this thing.
| 78 | Kommo-o | 1.72871% |
This thing is very solid so I'm surprised it has such low usage. Clangorous Soulblaze is amazing in itself, turning it into a very terrifying sweeper under the right conditions. Good rocker, SpDef is good to check Heatran and Ash Greninja.
| 79 | Magnezone | 1.67486% |
Traps a lot of stuff. Forces chip damage on Mega Metagross which is huge. Please use this more guys, it's amazing.
This meta still needs a lot of exploring, and I'm fully expecting to happen after the Dynamax ban. I really like the discussion here, seeing different people explore this meta in their own ways. Let's hope for a great metagame!
I didn't mean "should" in the descriptive sense (e.g "His Corviknight should have brave bird; they all do"), but in the prescriptive sense (e.g "You should use brave bird on Corviknight instead of iron head; it has better coverage and BP").
Basically, I was saying that it should be one of a player's top priorities to keep hazards off the field if they are playing stall. More balanced and offensive playstyles can afford to "trade" hazards, whereas stall ought to either bounce hazards away, or defog asap. Typically, this means having 2 or 3 Pokemon that can switch in on hazard setters before rocks get up; and then either defogging them away next turn, bouncing them back, or recovering the next turn if they attack instead.
In my opinion, a stall team is not good if any common hazard setters aren't checked/countered by any of the hazard control Pokemon on the team. Perhaps my standards are higher than those of others.
I didn't mean "should" in the descriptive sense (e.g "His Corviknight should have brave bird; they all do"), but in the prescriptive sense (e.g "You should use brave bird on Corviknight instead of iron head; it has better coverage and BP").
Basically, I was saying that it should be one of a player's top priorities to keep hazards off the field if they are playing stall. More balanced and offensive playstyles can afford to "trade" hazards, whereas stall ought to either bounce hazards away, or defog asap. Typically, this means having 2 or 3 Pokemon that can switch in on hazard setters before rocks get up; and then either defogging them away next turn, bouncing them back, or recovering the next turn if they attack instead.
In my opinion, a stall team is not good if any common hazard setters aren't checked/countered by any of the hazard control Pokemon on the team. Perhaps my standards are higher than those of others.
But critising a person for using SR in a calc is stupid. As much as Hazard counterplay exists for all team builds, not including SR in damage calcs because you think hazards should never be up is a rookie mistake
But critising a person for using SR in a calc is stupid. As much as Hazard counterplay exists for all team builds, not including SR in damage calcs because you think hazards should never be up is a rookie mistake
If you had to prep a stall team with SR calcs in mind, you'd never build a sufficient team. For example, physically defensive unaware Clefable can switch in on and wall Mega Heracross, but this changes if rocks are up. Suppose Heracross is common enough to warrant a check. You're not going to pass on Clefable because it needs hazards removed... it is too demanding to check most/all of the metagame with rocks up, so stall teams are built to keep hazards off the field and wall as much of the tier as possible without hazards up.
So back to that Pyukumuku calc... you're only using it on stall, and if rocks are up, the rest of your team is in jeopardy. Saying that Pyukumuku is not a sufficient check to Dracovish because it needs hazards removed is demanding a lot from a check.
If you don't think the Clefable/Heracross is any good because Heracross isn't common, just re-read the argument with Alomomola/Darmanitan in mind.
If you had to prep a stall team with SR calcs in mind, you'd never build a sufficient team. For example, physically defensive unaware Clefable can switch in on and wall Mega Heracross, but this changes if rocks are up. Suppose Heracross is common enough to warrant a check. You're not going to pass on Clefable because it needs hazards removed... it is too demanding to check most/all of the metagame with rocks up, so stall teams are built to keep hazards off the field and wall as much of the tier as possible without hazards up.
So back to that Pyukumuku calc... you're only using it on stall, and if rocks are up, the rest of your team is in jeopardy. Saying that Pyukumuku is not a sufficient check to Dracovish because it needs hazards removed is demanding a lot from a check.
If you don't think the Clefable/Heracross is any good because Heracross isn't common, just re-read the argument with Alomomola/Darmanitan in mind.
Still, hazards are omnipresent. Even though this gen has basically nerfed hazards to oblivion, you still have to account for the accountable, especially om a playstyle like stall where you will be switching constantly dozens of times in a match.
And tbh asking to avoid a 2HKO even with SR is not asking much of a check, especially when mons like Seis and Jellicent take 0%.
Alright, going off of National Dex Beta we can make a Nat Dex UU!
Pokemon that are currently OU by usage (Going off of the National Dex Ladder not the Beta) and therefore banned from National Dex UU. This list uses the new 4.52% Cut Off
(Why)
Everything else is allowed (For now)
Notable Pokemon Admittedly I don't know how this works because Ash Gren is OU but if this is allowed in this theoretical tier it should become a top metagame threat with its extreme versatility and Protean One of the best Dmax abusers that we have didn't make the cut in OU. Have fun with this down here. It's partner in crime is allowed too Lele may have been nerfed but a lot of its best checks are locked away in OU and its still very dangerous in its own right. Trapping Time Expect this to be fantastic with Band, SR, and DD sets. Mega is here too. Double Boosting sets will likely be even more dangerous with no Ditto around to revenge kill them Huge Power mons coming on through. This tier is looking insanely powerful already. A great physical wall in OU that will likely be a big threat down here as well. Yeah this tier is jacked. Curse and all out attacker sets should be good here. Offensive and Defensive sets both look pretty dangerous, although a lot of the things that the Wallbreaker LO set was good for are in OU so we will see. Band V-Create Time Offensive teams are looking better and better with Deoxys-D hazard support backing them up and all of these absurdly powerful and fast breakers available. Sub+NP and all that jazz should be quite good.
There's so many others I couldn't list them all. Have fun with what could be an insane tier if we decide to support it.
DYNAMAX IS GONE
who would only be ok in this meta with access to max ooze. His strength and wallbreaking power really is not as amazing as it was two gens ago, especially considering the fact that hes squishy, restricted to LO, and is invalidated by yeti. He could be really powerful, but ppl said the same thing about Gensect (healthy place in meta) and Deoxys-Defense (literally completely useless)
Admittedly I don't know how this works because Ash Gren is OU but if this is allowed in this theoretical tier it should become a top metagame threat with its extreme versatility and Protean
Lele may have been nerfed but a lot of its best checks are locked away in OU and its still very dangerous in its own right.
Huge Power mons coming on through. This tier is looking insanely powerful already.
