Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

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If you had to prep a stall team with SR calcs in mind, you'd never build a sufficient team. For example, physically defensive unaware Clefable can switch in on and wall Mega Heracross, but this changes if rocks are up. Suppose Heracross is common enough to warrant a check. You're not going to pass on Clefable because it needs hazards removed... it is too demanding to check most/all of the metagame with rocks up, so stall teams are built to keep hazards off the field and wall as much of the tier as possible without hazards up.

So back to that Pyukumuku calc... you're only using it on stall, and if rocks are up, the rest of your team is in jeopardy. Saying that Pyukumuku is not a sufficient check to Dracovish because it needs hazards removed is demanding a lot from a check.

If you don't think the Clefable/Heracross is any good because Heracross isn't common, just re-read the argument with Alomomola/Darmanitan in mind.
If you need to demand a lot from a check, it's not a very good check.
If something can only check another thing if rocks arent up, it's not a very good check.
And yes even if you prioritize removing hazards there will still be turns where they are up. Do you expect stall teams (or any team for that matter) to be able to instantly and reliably BTFO rocks the moment they go up? That is not realistic, especially with mold Breaker rocks and strong setup leads like lando setting them. You need to position yourself to remove them in the first place, during which time your opponent will likely be trying to smash you as hard as possible.
Which is exactly why it's not very good for a defensive mon to be 2hko'd by something its supposed to check with rocks up. Your corviknight or whatever isnt gonna be able to defog more than once if a wallbreaker like garm or vish is sitting right in front of it, if even that, and losing your hazard control while their setter is still alive is basically a death sentence for stall unless it's very late game.
Hazards may be weaker than ever but stealth rock is still found on virtually every competative team for a good reason. It's not some meme strat you can just dismiss.
 
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So, Heavy-duty-boots.
Has anyone considered building whole teams around such a thing? I like the idea of some kind of pressure semi-stall/flying spam team that at least has kyurem and zapdos, but possibly more mons that can abuse them like moltres and tornadus-t or even mons that arent weak to rocks but still appreciate taking no hazard damage like heatran.
I feel like these timbs might be the one boon for more defensive playstyles in this hyper-offensive meta (that will likely continue to stay hyper-offensive post-dmax)
I definitely like the idea of building teams that are almost immune to hazards, with the only mons taking damage from it being, say, your scarfer or a mon who never cared about them anyway like Gliscor.
 

Sputnik

Bono My Tires are Deceased
is a Contributor Alumnus
So, Heavy-duty-boots.
Has anyone considered building whole teams around such a thing? I like the idea of some kind of pressure semi-stall/flying spam team that at least has kyurem and zapdos, but possibly more mons that can abuse them like moltres and tornadus-t or even mons that arent weak to rocks but still appreciate taking no hazard damage like heatran.
I feel like these timbs might be the one boon for more defensive playstyles in this hyper-offensive meta (that will likely continue to stay hyper-offensive post-dmax)
I definitely like the idea of building teams that are almost immune to hazards, with the only mons taking damage from it being, say, your scarfer or a mon who never cared about them anyway like Gliscor.
I personally haven't tried it yet but I would be curious to see what people make of defensive Moltres with Boots. I just tossed together this set (The EVs prevent Megagross's Zen Headbutt from 2HKOing) which looks like it could be an alright check to a bunch of threats while Pressure Stalling things like Serp and easily Defogging with boots. It's a similar set that it ran in OU in Gen 7, just without the extreme hazard support that it required beforehand.
 
I personally haven't tried it yet but I would be curious to see what people make of defensive Moltres with Boots. I just tossed together this set (The EVs prevent Megagross's Zen Headbutt from 2HKOing) which looks like it could be an alright check to a bunch of threats while Pressure Stalling things like Serp and easily Defogging with boots. It's a similar set that it ran in OU in Gen 7, just without the extreme hazard support that it required beforehand.
While I am concerned in the long term that boots may cause more problems than they solve, stuff like this being viable (without having to bend over backwards to make it work) is very satisfying.
 
I personally haven't tried it yet but I would be curious to see what people make of defensive Moltres with Boots. I just tossed together this set (The EVs prevent Megagross's Zen Headbutt from 2HKOing) which looks like it could be an alright check to a bunch of threats while Pressure Stalling things like Serp and easily Defogging with boots. It's a similar set that it ran in OU in Gen 7, just without the extreme hazard support that it required beforehand.
What does this do that HDB Zapdos doesn't do?
 
Particularly handle Mega Metagross. Most Megagross carry Ice Punch which Zapdos wants no part of. And yes, as Chubby Gardevior said, it also handles Volcarona better.
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Moltres: 160-190 (41.6 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

That's really shaky, especially without leftovers. Not even considering the chance to flinch.

0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 218-258 (72.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Once in, Moltres will be hit by another Zen Headbutt, which could flinch her. If not, then Moltres has two options 1) use Flamethrower, which will not KO, or 2) use Roost. If you use Flamethrower, you lose, as Mega Metagross will hit you from the switch in, hit you before you use said attack, survive it, then KO you on the next turn. If you use Roost, I assume you're just trying to PP stall Zen Headbutt, but this is also heavily weighted towards Mega Metagross - either a flinch or a crit means you die. Flame Body would force Meta out, but the set you provided uses Pressure.



Touche on the Volcarona, but 30% paralysis chance on Discharge is discouraging for Volc to be lounging around in Zapdos's face. And for Moltres versus Volcarona matchup you provided, Moltres initially walls Volc but cant really harm him back either. Without Toxic, and Flamethrower is basically harmless to Quiver Dance, Volcarona will just set up on Moltres and brute force it.

+2 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 136 SpD Moltres: 182-214 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO

And in the situation Moltres loses boots and hazards are up (an entirely possible situation):

+2 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 136 SpD Moltres: 182-214 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


In practice notwithstanding Moltres is a solid Volc but he isn't a hard counter. Fire Blast on Volcarona isnt uncommon. If Volcarona has Psychic (again also not uncommon cuz Pex) he can break sub and overpower Moltres without worry about hax. It gets even worse when you realize Volcarona sometimes even carries Substitute. Volcarona has reliable recovery and can gain kill pressure by spamming (Fiery Dance) so he has plenty of tools to break past Moltres.

Zapdos is more vulnerable against Volcarona but poses more of a threat because of the paralysis chance. Your set attempts to PP stall which wont necessarily work, because a big part of PP stall's effectiveness is speed, and Volc runs circles around Moltres.

Granted again Moltres > Zapdos vs Volcarona but in the overall meta Zapdos is plenty more useful. Takes on Hawlucha, Bulu, Pex, Lando, and Excadrill better than Moltres and has utility by spreading para around. A lot of stuff Moltres stomps, Zapdos also stomps, cause he 99% of the time has Heat Wave. Moltres takes out some shit better (Magearna, Aegislash, Metagross) but Zapdos just has too valuable of a defensive typing, and isn't gated to an item as hard as Moltres is- if a mon uses Knock Off on Moltres he quickly becomes a liability due the insane amount of hazard support he requires. Zapdos is bothered by SR but not rendered worthless by it like Moltres is
 

Sputnik

Bono My Tires are Deceased
is a Contributor Alumnus
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Moltres: 160-190 (41.6 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

That's really shaky, especially without leftovers. Not even considering the chance to flinch.

0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 218-258 (72.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Once in, Moltres will be hit by another Zen Headbutt, which could flinch her. If not, then Moltres has two options 1) use Flamethrower, which will not KO, or 2) use Roost. If you use Flamethrower, you lose, as Mega Metagross will hit you from the switch in, hit you before you use said attack, survive it, then KO you on the next turn. If you use Roost, I assume you're just trying to PP stall Zen Headbutt, but this is also heavily weighted towards Mega Metagross - either a flinch or a crit means you die. Flame Body would force Meta out, but the set you provided uses Pressure.



Touche on the Volcarona, but 30% paralysis chance on Discharge is discouraging for Volc to be lounging around in Zapdos's face. And for Moltres versus Volcarona matchup you provided, Moltres initially walls Volc but cant really harm him back either. Without Toxic, and Flamethrower is basically harmless to Quiver Dance, Volcarona will just set up on Moltres and brute force it.

+2 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 136 SpD Moltres: 182-214 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO

And in the situation Moltres loses boots and hazards are up (an entirely possible situation):

+2 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 136 SpD Moltres: 182-214 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


In practice notwithstanding Moltres is a solid Volc but he isn't a hard counter. Fire Blast on Volcarona isnt uncommon. If Volcarona has Psychic (again also not uncommon cuz Pex) he can break sub and overpower Moltres without worry about hax. It gets even worse when you realize Volcarona sometimes even carries Substitute. Volcarona has reliable recovery and can gain kill pressure by spamming (Fiery Dance) so he has plenty of tools to break past Moltres.

Zapdos is more vulnerable against Volcarona but poses more of a threat because of the paralysis chance. Your set attempts to PP stall which wont necessarily work, because a big part of PP stall's effectiveness is speed, and Volc runs circles around Moltres.

Granted again Moltres > Zapdos vs Volcarona but in the overall meta Zapdos is plenty more useful. Takes on Hawlucha, Bulu, Pex, Lando, and Excadrill better than Moltres and has utility by spreading para around. A lot of stuff Moltres stomps, Zapdos also stomps, cause he 99% of the time has Heat Wave. Moltres takes out some shit better (Magearna, Aegislash, Metagross) but Zapdos just has too valuable of a defensive typing, and isn't gated to an item as hard as Moltres is- if a mon uses Knock Off on Moltres he quickly becomes a liability due the insane amount of hazard support he requires. Zapdos is bothered by SR but not rendered worthless by it like Moltres is
I'm not arguing that Moltres is the best choice, nor am I saying that that's the best Moltres set available (I've since greatly modified it to handle some of the threats better). I'm saying that Moltres does have a niche over Zapdos in the fact that it does better against a list of threats that could be beneficial to a team. Zapdos is better, I agree, but saying that Moltres isn't viable isn't correct either if you ask me.
 
For last couple of days I've been thinking about "what is the most dangerous pokemon right now." Well I think its gotta be Mega-Blastoise.

:sm/blastoise-mega:
Blastoise-Mega @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Ice Beam / Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Aura Sphere

I don't theres a single mon that brings fear when it gets a setup opportunity. What even worse, this thing doesn't even have Dynamax at its disposal. Revenge killing is much harder than it might seem, as it completely changes if its running Timid. Running timid lets it outrun even Scarf Kartana to give things into perceptive. However I think Modest is better for the most part as the extra damage makes it great vs Defense while still shredding offense.

Speaking of Defense. Mega-Blastoise is also a insane wallbreaker because most of its moves powered up by Mega Launcher coming from a base 130 SpA. Now I'm going to go over all of its "Checks" and see how they do against it.

:tapu-fini: - Probably its best defensive answer. However Tapu Fini lacks recovery, has a high chance to get 3HKOed if Mega-Blastoise running Hydro Pump after a boost. And finally Tapu Fini is hard to justify over other waters because of inability to check Dracovish.

:clefable: - SpD Unaware can deal with. However Unaware would rather run Defense and it can be pressured by Hazards. Not to mention this set is so passive to the point where its only suited for Stall teams.

:azumarill: - Yeah aparently AV can check it. But like no recovery and the fact that its being brought up as check is showing how desperate people are getting at actually trying to deal with this monster.

:magearna: - AV can check variants lacking Hydro Pump but once again its has no reliable recovery and its weak to Spikes.

Special mention goes to Dynamaxing something thats semi bulky which can work and surprise kill it. This is only if Mega-Blastoise isn't under screens which can make revenge killing that way harder. Oh and if Dynamax gets banned, this strategy falls apart. Priority can work but Mega-Blastoise resists Aqua Jet, Water Shuriken, and Bullet Punch and its bulk its amazing under screens so its likely it will be able to takes those hits anyway.

Ditto is very popular at the moment because of the terrifying sweepers and Mega-Blastoise is one of them. So its probably the most reliable way to deal with it at the moment. Anyway thats all I want to say. Please keep this thing in mind when building teams because if your not ready it will quite literally 6/0 you if gets the chance to setup.
 
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I've been using assault vest Amoongus to check volt switch users, Fini, Toxtricity, and various other Pokemon. I noticed that Toxtricity isn't as common as I as expected it to be, and I have been using heavy SpD investment on Amoongus to check specs sets. I feel like I can get away with putting more EVs into defense so it can serve as a secondary check to Bulu and Kartana, but I'm not sure how many EVs I should move around. Is there a recommended spread? I want to be able to lure Heatran with it, so I will need some SpD investment.
 
I've been using assault vest Amoongus to check volt switch users, Fini, Toxtricity, and various other Pokemon. I noticed that Toxtricity isn't as common as I as expected it to be, and I have been using heavy SpD investment on Amoongus to check specs sets. I feel like I can get away with putting more EVs into defense so it can serve as a secondary check to Bulu and Kartana, but I'm not sure how many EVs I should move around. Is there a recommended spread? I want to be able to lure Heatran with it, so I will need some SpD investment.
591.png

Amoonguss @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Sludge Bomb
- Stomping Tantrum

I've been using this set the most, as it acts as a really solid Kartana and Tapu Bulu check, while simultaneously luring Heatran (barring Z-Fire) and checking (Ash) Greninja, Tapu Koko and Mega Blastoise. Can also act as a soft check for Genesect, but it should only be saved for that under extreme circumstances.

252 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Assault Vest Amoonguss: 182-216 (42.1 - 50%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (it doesn't get a Sp. Atk boost because you have higher Special Defense)

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Assault Vest Amoonguss: 145-172 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 164 Def Amoonguss: 319-376 (73.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Assault Vest Amoonguss: 236-278 (54.6 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and trapping damage

+2 252+ SpA Blastoise-Mega Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Assault Vest Amoonguss: 292-344 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Assault Vest Amoonguss: 294-348 (68 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Obviously this is my own made spread, and there might be a more consistent / better set out there, but this has been working fine for me.
 
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With the Dynamax ban out of the way. I would like to do a post on teambuilding in Natdex. This post will include the 5 most important counter plays to have on a team in my opinion. I was inspired by Jordy's USUM Metagame post.

:ditto: :tapu-fini: Mega Blastoise counter play :clefable: :magearna:

Mega Blastoise counter play is the single most important thing for any team because without it you will lose as soon team preview is active. However it must be mentioned that checking it from a defensive standpoint is difficult because of threat of it either being Modest or Timid, chance of Hydro Pump being used instead of Ice Beam. Dark Pulse flinches is also a huge issue for bulkier Mons like Toxapex. Ditto is the best form of counter play as it can threaten it out or even sweep the foe's team. Tapu Fini can also check it but keep in mind that Tapu Fini is very awkward to build with and faces a lot of competition right now.

:volcanion: :gastrodon: :seismitoad: Dracovish counter play :slowbro-mega: :tangrowth: :jellicent:

Dracovish is a extremely powerful wallbreaker and without defensive counter play it will claim a kill everytime I comes in. Water Immunities are pretty effective as outside of Fishious Rend Dracovish is pretty weak even with CB. Volcanion, Gastrodon, Seismitoad, and the niche Jellicent are all effective checks to Dracovish. Volcanion in particular can defog as Dracovish switches out letting its teams switch around more. Extremely sturdy checks like Mega Slowbro and Tangrowth are also decent answers however they can't check it when its in the Rain.

:slowbro-mega: :volcanion: :scizor-mega: Galarian Darmanitan counter play :jellicent: :avalugg: :metagross-mega:

Checking Galarian Darmanitan is quite difficult to do because of the insane power of its CB set. A lot of time its about making the right prediction. Mega Slowbro is probably the best check because of its great bulk and access to reliable recovery. Mega Scizor is also a decent answer but it will turn to ash if it goes for Flare Blitz. Volcanion resist every move except Earthquake and threaten one of its team mates with a burn. Dealing with it offensively can also do the trick but keep in mind that Galarian Darmanitan can force you to sac something.

:scizor-mega: :slowbro-mega: Steel-Type counter play :volcanion: :ferrothorn:

Steel-Types like Mega Metagross, Genesect, and Melmetal are very threatening pokemon because of there ability switch into common attacking types. Now judging who checks who is difficult because of the sheer variety of them so I will just list of checks to them. Keep in mind that these mons can run sets that let them beat some of these checks.

:metagross-mega: - :scizor-mega: :slowbro-mega: :tangrowth: :zapdos: :moltres: :buzzwole: :ferrothorn: :landorus-therian: :rotom-wash: :quagsire:
:aegislash: - :scizor-mega: :heatran: :toxapex: :volcanion: :ferrothorn: :gastrodon:
:melmetal: - :scizor-mega: :slowbro-mega: :rotom-wash: :quagsire:
:genesect: - :scizor-mega: :aegislash: :heatran: :toxapex: :volcarona: :magnezone: :volcanion: :magearna: :dugtrio:
:heatran: - :dugtrio: :slowbro-mega: :gastrodon: :tapu-fini: :zygarde: :sableye-mega::rotom-wash:
:kartana: - :zapdos: :scizor-mega: :aegislash: :moltres: :buzzwole:
:magearna: - :chansey: :magearna: :jirachi: :toxapex: :ferrothorn: :tangrowth: :scizor-mega: :aegislash: :heatran::dugtrio:

There are more but I got bored of doing this so I'm going to move on to the last important counter play. As you can see there are lot of Steel-Types to deal with. And as you can tell. Mega Scizor is probably the best Steel-Type check (And the best Steel-Type fight me).

:tangrowth: :tapu-bulu: :scizor-mega: Zygarde counter play :avalugg: :buzzwole: :slowbro-mega:

Zygarde is one of the most potent threat in the metagame. Because it really needs 1 move attacking move, it has 3 free moveslots so it can mix and mash between moves to get past its checks. Tangrowth is probably the best check that can be a easy fit because of its amazing bulk and regenerator to offset a lot of chip. However Tapu Bulu, Mega Scizor, Mega-Slowbro, and the nicher Avalugg, and Buzzwole (Best check but its hard to fit) are also options to deal with it. Keep in mind that a lot of them lose to Subtoxic and some can get haxed by its SubCoil set.

I hope this post was helpful to you.
 
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Ok as i said before I'm gonna copy paste my previous comment as it is now truly applicable to the situation.

So no this is not a spam post and i feel like its a good starting point to a post dynamax discussion.


Winners
:toxapex::corsola-galar::tangrowth::corviknight::zapdos:
Almost every single wall in the tier
A lack of a get out of jail button will have a peculiar effect on this metagame. Walls like Toxapex and Tangrowth will fare much better since the Pokemon they are supposed to check no longer can break through them unfairly.
:Blastoise-mega::Scizor-mega::lopunny-mega::metagross-mega::venusaur-mega:
Mega Evolutions
Mega Blastoise will probably become one of the premier setup sweepers since he can setup without dynamax. A lack of ditto that dynamax's ban will cause means that his sweeps won't be able to stopped as easily.
:hydreigon::kommo-o::victini:
Z Moves Users
Z Moves users now are not at as much of a disadvantage, since now everyone has an equal playing field. I think Kommo-O stands out the most as the double omniboost he can now setup will be a real threat. Darkinium Z Hydreigon is probably substantially more powerful.
:Quagsire::clefable::pyukumuku:
Unaware Users
Unaware users have middling bulk to make up for their ability to disregard boosts. Without dynamax they are more liable to being able to stomach hits.
:dugtrio:
Dugtrio
Dugtrio, who does not benefit from Dynamax at all, will have an easier time trapping opponents who can't turn giga at a button press.
:aegislash::chansey::sableye-mega::tangrowth::clefable::corsola-galar::deoxys-defense::Toxapex:
Stall
Yay Stall is no longer a troll option! Its just...bad now, I guess, similar to the state it was at the end of SM. The only noteworthy shit we got this gen was Deoxys-Defense (who we have found to be useless) and Corsola-Galar, who isn't honestly that bulky. Sub Toxic Aegislash is really good but its not unique to Stall either. Dynamax ban is a monumental buff to it but without a way to handle an ever-increasing offensive meta I simply cannot see Stall becoming a dominant playstyle anytime soon. I mean look at the power creep. Mega Sableye is too squishy these days. Mega Metagross's presence in the tier terrifies Chansey and Clefable. Stall needs a number of truly sturdy walls to resurface honestly, particularly a genuinely bulky Unaware wall and more Defog users.
:Darmanitan-galar:
Monkey
Darm will find it easy to pick off the majority of the tier since they can't double their HP at will.

Losers
:gyarados::togekiss::kartana::salamence:
Max Airstream Users
Hahahaha! Abusers of an unfair and unhealthy mechanic are kinda gonna fall out. Kartana will still be viable, of course, but I can't see Gyarados remaining as good. Flyinium Z will be alright but not crazy. Togekiss, on the other hand, will fall out of favor. Fast. As far as I know Salamence has no real good offensive potential and Wish Mence is....bad. The age of mons carrying Hidden Power Flying for that sweet Moxie boost is over.
:melmetal-gigantamax::snorlax-gigantamax::centiskorch-gigantamax:
Gigantamax
Granted Gigantamax was just a design change on bad mons, and the exclusive moves they got were usually worse than the normal ones, but they lose a big part of their individuality.
:magearna::genesect:
Dynamax-Reliant Setup Sweepers
Pokemon like Magearna who fucking snowballed outta control after one Shift Gear are gonna find it harder to make do with BoltBeam coverage.
:mew::Grimmsnarl::deoxys-defense::tapukoko::hawlucha:
Dual Screens / Hyper Offense
Oh man both playstyles rightly got a huge nerf now, thank fucking jesus. Other playstyles besides Dual Screens + Shift Gear GG and Electric Terrain + Max Knuckle may actually finally usable. Lol who am I kidding? But seriously its finally a crippling a nerf to these playstyles who will remain incredibly powerful but (hopefully) not quite as meta defining.
:tyranitar::excadrill::hippowdon:
Sand
Sand is already dead until Vish gets Sand Rush for the reasons I stated earlier but Excadrill losing the ability to set up his own sand and sandaconda losing gigantamax hurts.
:torkoal::venusaur::charizard:
Sun
Torkoal doesnt have any recovery so hes liable to get killed if you dont watch it. Which leaves you with Ninetales and MCY as your sole remaining drought users lol. Weather Ball buff for Venusaur is good but now he cant set his own sun, and his offenses aren't that good without a growth boost.
:pelipper::barraskewda::swampert-mega:
Rain
Since the majority of the swift swim users now cannot set their own rain Barraskewda is now useless. Also Beartic I guess, his stats are actually pretty good. Unfortunately, Pelipper is super hardy so its not like Rain has any trouble keeping weather throughout the match like sun or sand lacking hippowdon.
:eiscue::avalugg::abomasnow::ninetales-alola::Arctovish::mamoswine:
Hail
Poor Hail, the removal of dynamax will be a huge a dropkick in the nuts for Hail and Ice in general, which is a shame cause this gen was initially shaping up to be the renassiance of Ice types. Kyurem-Black got DD and Ice STAB, Avalugg and Vanilluxe got Aurora Veil, Hail finally got a reliable sweeper/pivot in Eiscue, and Darm exists. But yeah no Kyub was banned, Darm is about to be banned and basically has nothing to do with Hail and the larger ice type, Eiscue turned out to be little more than an annoying gimmick, Mega Abomasnow is still useless as a hail setter, scarf abomasnow is not good, and Vanilluxe doesnt have the recovery or offensive movepool to become a contender for a viable hail setter. Avalugg can't fit Aurora Veil on his moveset anyways, leaving Ninetales to be the sole hail setter in Hail. Its sad, really, because Max Hailstorm was at least alright but for some reason Game Freak has a hard on for making potentially viable hail sweepers (sandslash, beartic, arctovish) have unusable speed even when boosted. And throughout the gens hail has always been somewhat of a joke, even when Stallrein existed. I think it has something to do with the weakness of the ice type and the fact that only ice types directly benefit from hail while multiple types benefit from sand, sun and rain, but its really telling that an ideally built hail team seems identical to a monotype ice team. In a meta where Darmanitan, Metagross, Genesect, and Aegislash rule, Hail has no chance. Game Freak is an abject failure at game balancing.

Anyways judging by the previous unbans of :genesect: and :deoxys-defense: I think with dynamax beimg banned its the perfect type to unban :Landorus: who would only be ok in this meta with access to max ooze. His strength and wallbreaking power really is not as amazing as it was two gens ago, especially considering the fact that hes squishy, restricted to LO, and is invalidated by yeti. He could be really powerful, but ppl said the same thing about Gensect (healthy place in meta) and Deoxys-Defense (literally completely useless)
so I'm excited to hear your opinions on this matter.









Well, I was wrong about Mega Metagross being the main threat. The true threat is Blastoise. The age of dynamax sweeping is over and Mega Blastoise is the most powerful offensive Pokemon in the tier by a long margin, greater than Darm, Vish, Gross and Kart. I feel like every team will need to have an answer to him. His only flaw is serious 4mss - he often cant fit Water Pulse.

Shit is about to get real, no more games - dynamax is banned, the REAL National Dex begins now. The previous meta - the one where games were decided by the first person to use Aerial Ace - is over. This meta will probably now favor those with actual intrinsic sweeping capabilities as opposed to people with flying coverage and decent speed. Buckle up.
 

Sputnik

Bono My Tires are Deceased
is a Contributor Alumnus
Everyone is talking about Mega-Blastoise and Mega-Metagross, and for good reason, but lets have a look at some of the other megas in the tier! They basically all got buffed in one way or another thanks to the banning of going big, so I think we should talk about some of the better ones here.

:Scizor-Mega: Probably the third best mega after King and Queen Metagross and Blastoise in my opinion. This thing provides a great deal of offensive and defensive utility to a lot of teams, providing a sturdy check to several of the better Pokemon in the tier and being a bona fide offensive threat as well if things like Heatran are taken care of. And, oh yeah, we have Dugtrio. It's not quite as good as the other two, but its ability to annoy a laundry list of really good Pokemon makes it a valuable addition to many teams

:Lopunny-Mega: No more dynamaxing means no more avoiding Mega Lops Fake Out. The buff to Scrappy was actually gigantic, as it means you don't have to run Ice Punch to remotely threaten Lando anymore. It's also one of the few Pokemon to genuinely scare that Aegislash/Hydreigon core that's running around, and it can provide big chip onto a set up Mega Blastoise with its priority attacks. I've taken to running double priority now to really annoy offense, and Ice Punch isn't missed as much thanks to the fact that Lando doesn't work as well as a check and Gliscor is honestly pretty rare. Corviknight existing really sucks for it, but either way Lop is a great choice on many teams right now.

:Slowbro-Mega: A lot of people are running this thing to beat Vish, Darm, the other really powerful breakers running around, you know the drill. It can work pretty well but honestly its not super difficult to take advantage of with proper team support. A lot of common threats (Hydreigon, Aegislash, Mega-Blastoise, Zard-Y, that sort of thing) beat it pretty easily so you have a lot of stuff that you have to cover as a result. Still, that Physical Bulk is absolutely fantastic and you have a still bulky Regenerating pink boi before you mega as well. I think its viability is a bit overstated right now honestly, but it can still work.

:Venusaur-Mega: I've seen this a decent amount on ladder but quite frankly I just don't think its that good. It doesn't deal with Vish very well, the amount of Steel Types running around really messes with it, and it still has a lot of the same issues that held it back in Gen 7, although admittedly things like Tapu Lele and Hawlucha are less common. It's still really bulky but its vulnerable to too much stuff to be more than an average choice right now.

:Charizard-Mega-X::Charizard-Mega-Y: X is a pretty good DD sweeper again, it honestly sits at a great speed tier for a metagame where a lot of common scarfers fall just short of outrunning it at +1 and it's still really powerful. Y is an alright wallbreaker but I don't see too many reasons to run it over the rest of the absurdly powerful breakers right now, as most of them don't take massive damage with rocks up. Also Toxapex is everywhere.

:Mawile-Mega::Medicham-Mega: Dynamaxing being yeeted really helps these two, as they only have their power to back them up and defensive dynamaxing really hurt. They still hit things really hard although they have competition from Darm and Vish now as well.

:Sableye-Mega: There's a lot of stuff running around that gives this headaches but it's still our best Magic Bouncer which makes it pretty easy to slot in onto Stall Teams. Prankster Will-O-Wisp Pre-Mega is also a hilarious way to really fuck with Vish and Kart and stuff.

There's more I forgot like Mega Pert, Mega Aggron, that sort of thing, but I gotta bounce now. Basically every Mega got buffed in some way, so lovers of the mechanic rejoice!
 
Really like the look of the tier now that Dynamaxing is gone. There's the established threats, but I can see a decent amount of diversity in team building now that it isn't just spamming HO for Dynamaxing.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
So with Dynamaxing banned, I would like to take the time to look at the overall playstyles that I feel got better / worse:

1. Bulky Offense:


I feel Bulky Offense benefits a ton with the lack of strong hitting dynamax abusers such as Kartana, Magearna, Zygarde, and Landorus-T being able to break through common defensive cores typically found on these teams consisting of pivots such as Rotom-W, Tangrowth, Heatran, Toxapex, Ferrothorn, etc... I feel bulkier playstyles will finally have the chance to breathe in a metagame where setup sweepers / wallbreakers need to play more carefully and not just rely on max moves to break through such defensive cores without much remorse. Now of course Dynamax did benefit with some Dynamax abusers being found on these teams, mainly being Zygarde, Landorus-T, Magearna, and occasionally Scarf Kartana, however I feel Dynamax inheritely benefits offensive play and thus giving bulkier teams the time to shine.

2. Balance


In a similar vein to BO, I also feel that Balance got a huge upgrade without Dynamaxing being available to wallbreakers that are notable for hampering the playstyle. Now more bulky setup sweepers such as CM Clefable, Bulk Up Corviknight (which did admittedly benefit from Dmax as well) and CM Mega Latias can all setup freely without fearing the potential of Dynamaxing halting a sweep in it's track. There are still some nuisances that can cause Balance to seem difficult at times, mainly being Mega Metagross, CB Zygarde, Darmanitan-G, and Genesect, but I still believe that classic Balance teams of late SM can have time to re-appear in this metagame as well.

3. Stall


Again there is a trend here lol, hyper defense also got a ton of breathing room and probably lowkey benefitted the most without the appearance of Dynamax sweepers. The presence of Arena Trap Dugtrio can help deal with troublesome threats such as Mega Metagross, Heatran, CB Tyranitar, and CB Darmanitan-G, helping it's partners deal with the rest of the team more appropriately. Old threats such as Mega Sableye, Chansey, Quagsire, and Clefable pair well with the new presence of Corviknight which helps provide Pressure + Defog which is dope and in general there is a lot of options for stall rn which may or may not be a good thing lol, we shall see.

5. Hyper Offense


Did get nerfed after the removal of Dynamax, although I still think the playstyle is viable as a whole. Screens will always be good as long as abusers such as Zygarde, Mega Blastoise, Magearna, and Hawlucha are present and Mew is still really dope as a lead hazard setter. Hopefully we can see it being less spammed on the ladder lol cause admitelly it was becoming annoying near the end.

In general, I am also really hyped to see how the metagame starts to develop after the removal of Dynamax as it admittedly caused a huge halt in metagame development. Interested to see others thoughts as well. Expect more resources soon (such as the VR).
 
I'm not sure how I feel about timid Heatran news. I know that I'm supposed to feel a sense excitement, however, I can't help but side with concern on this one - as I feel that the floodgates have been opened, and it's only a matter of time untill other illegal things like NYPC moves get implemented
http://pokemon-online.eu/threads/4364/

Then afterwards a campaign to implement Let's go Eevee and Pikachu learnset will follow.

I appreciate that I am in the minority, however, I just hope that there's a line in the sand somewhere, because the cons are starting to outweigh the pros. I can tolerate moves that were rendered unusable like pursuit, hidden power, return, frustration etc. But this is asking to of me
 
So yeah after playing a few games with the new Heatran I can immediately conclude that Eruption has transformed this Pokemon into the hero this meta needs. Unlike other scarfers like Genesect and Darm, Heatran has immense defensive utility and is incredibly bulky for a scarfer. I dont think any of you really comprehend how big Eruption will be for this meta: Heatran is definitely now the best scarfer in the game. Literally everything you loved about heatran before, now hes Fire Dracovish.

Specs Heatran got a massive buff too. Not much shit can switch into a Specs Eruption. Mega Blastoise is cleanly KO'd on the switch in. Hes Fire Dracovish and I expect Heatran to find a better place on offensive teams now. If you were scared to use Heatran before because he had no recovery, now just slap a scarf on him and wreck shit up. He has the offensive movepool, typing, and great speed tier to outspeed shit and OHKO with Eruption. Mega Metagross and Mega Lopunny need to fucking watch out because Heatran is no longer a free kill.
 
I'm not sure how I feel about timid Heatran news. I know that I'm supposed to feel a sense excitement, however, I can't help but side with concern on this one - as I feel that the floodgates have been opened, and it's only a matter of time untill other illegal things like NYPC moves get implemented
http://pokemon-online.eu/threads/4364/

Then afterwards a campaign to implement Let's go Eevee and Pikachu learnset will follow.

I appreciate that I am in the minority, however, I just hope that there's a line in the sand somewhere, because the cons are starting to outweigh the pros. I can tolerate moves that were rendered unusable like pursuit, hidden power, return, frustration etc. But this is asking to of me
The way I see it is that NatDex is built on the premise of SwSh gaining full transfer capabilities in the same way all prior games have had transfers, allowing all Pokémon and all moves to be brought forward as in prior generations. The Pokémon with NYPC moves were never transferrable to newer generations, and Let’s Go starters are not able to leave their games, so they would not be legal, but Eruption Heatran has been transferrable and would now be able to have its nature changed by the SwSh nature mints if it were in the Galar Dex, so this change is consistent with this transfer-based philosophy, which is why it happened.
 
So yeah after playing a few games with the new Heatran I can immediately conclude that Eruption has transformed this Pokemon into the hero this meta needs. Unlike other scarfers like Genesect and Darm, Heatran has immense defensive utility and is incredibly bulky for a scarfer. I dont think any of you really comprehend how big Eruption will be for this meta: Heatran is definitely now the best scarfer in the game. Literally everything you loved about heatran before, now hes Fire Dracovish.

Specs Heatran got a massive buff too. Not much shit can switch into a Specs Eruption. Mega Blastoise is cleanly KO'd on the switch in. Hes Fire Dracovish and I expect Heatran to find a better place on offensive teams now. If you were scared to use Heatran before because he had no recovery, now just slap a scarf on him and wreck shit up. He has the offensive movepool, typing, and great speed tier to outspeed shit and OHKO with Eruption. Mega Metagross and Mega Lopunny need to fucking watch out because Heatran is no longer a free kill.
When this tier burns because of this, I blame you. (Yes that was supposed to be a pun)
 
I'm sure some of y'all have noticed me on ladder and that I've been trying out a bunch of stuff, and wanted to kind of talk about some very underrated Pokemon or cores in the meta rn.

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Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Protect

This thing is pretty good, despite the numerous amount of top tier steel types running around. It's able to break through / heavily weaken a lot of balance cores right now that have been appearing now that Dynamax has been removed from the ladder. It has good coverage that hits basically everything, and the Pokemon that annoy this set (Ferrothorn, Corviknight) can be trapped by Magnezone which I'll talk about in a bit. Protect is really nice to mega evolve way safer, and let's you scout choice users that may go for U-turn instead of a coverage move (Genesect, Galarian Darmanitan, Landorus-T), which allows you to stay in and fire off a huge hit. I really like this 'mon because of its solid speed tier and fire power.

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Like I mentioned in the Mega Dianice paragraph, this thing pairs really nicely with it. And not only with Mega Diancie, with quite a lot of the metagame. It's able to trap so much stuff currently. Ferrothorn, Corviknight, Mega Mawile, Mega Scizor and even sometimes Kartana. I think Sub Z-Move is currently the best set, since if you set one up against Ferrothorn you get 2 kills a lot of the times. Z-Move sets also OHKO Mega Mawile which is huge. Scarf is still viable as always to trap non-Scarf Kartana. Overall, this 'mon brings some unmatched team support for many Pokemon, and is definitely amazing in this meta.

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Blacephalon @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 232 HP / 20 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower
- Calm Mind
- Substitute

Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Reversal
- Stone Edge
- Memento

I am in love with this core. This should remind you of the Mega Charizard Y + Dugtrio core spammed back in early SM, and it kinda works the same. Dugtrio traps the stuff that stop Blacephalon from sweeping. (Mega) Tyranitar is obviously the best for Blacephalon to get trapped, but stuff like Chansey, Toxapex and SpDef Heatran being gone helps Blacephalon a ton. Blacephalon can then go on its rampage with its CM Ghostium Z sets. This set destroys offense after a single speed boost, and breaks through a ton of balance builds if the aforementioned things are trapped and killed / heavily weakened by Dugtrio. I recommend trying this core, as it's really good and really effective.

Other stuff I'll talk about quickly that I've been enjoying:
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SubDD + Ghostium Z sets have been working amazing for me. High speed tier, pretty strong after a +1. Can easily late game sweep a lot of teams.
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Webs have been pretty fun to use. Ribombee is the best setter imo, as it doesn't get flinched by Fake Out Lopunny (because of Shield Dust), and can Stun Spore threats like Magearna.
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Only use this on webs, but it's pretty fun regardless. Specs is super strong and can outspeed quite a few things like Koko under webs. Not necessarily something you need on a webs team, but it's fun to just come in and either kill something, or do massive damage.
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Specs is super strong since Fini is no longer a counter since it got Freeze-Dry. SubRoost variants are also still annoying to face because they can Pressure stall Chansey since Seismic Toss doesn't break the Sub. Overall a solid Pokemon.
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Goat Rocker tbh. Heavily discourages Dracovish from spamming Fishious Rend, and has a solid Rain matchup as well. Can soft check Pokemon like BoltBeam Magearna. Not as viable as in regular OU of course, but still a solid Pokemon.
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I love this 'mon. Dynamax being gone is amazing as it can now Fake Out for free.
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Scarf, Specs, Band, Z-Move Shift Gear, 4 Atks... This 'mon is so versatile. Its speed tier is kinda awkward sometimes, but it's backed up by all of its other positive traits. I don't think I have to explain why this is a top tier Pokemon in the meta.
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Best Defogger, maybe only rivaled by Corviknight. HDB is amazing for this thing, while still keeping the same utility in U-turn and Knock Off. Taunt sets are also still annoying for stuff like Ferrothorn, and even Heat Wave or Focus Blast can be used on more offensive oriented sets.

This meta has been really fun and want to thank Funbot28 and power for making this metagame possible, as I've been playing it each and every day with a lot of fun. I hope everyone has fun exploring this meta now that Dynamax is gone!
 
With the news of Dynamax being banned here, I want to say thank you to all the voters and congratulations for removing this awful mechanic. No more Unga Bunga sweeps and no more sudden comebacks.

Anyways, I would say that Mega Blastoise should be looked at next for suspecting.
Blastoise has been blessed in SWSH by being given nearly every tool is could ask for and some more for the ND Meta.
First an foremost, its biggest addition is Shell Smash. You know, the move that boosts your Atk, SpA, and Spe by +2 at the cost of 1 stage of Def/SpD? Yeah, GameFreak gave it to Blastoise. Although Blastoise lost its Mega Evolution in SWSH, that is not a problem with the National Dex meta. Mega Blastoise is completely insane after 1 Shell Smash.
At +2, Timid Aura Sphere is still able to 2HKO the G.O.A.T Special Wall in Eviolite Chansey.
Aura Sphere and Dark Pulse is great coverage, only resisted by Fairy types, most of which do no appreciate a +2 Hydro Pump (not even Unaware Clefable, which needs 252/+156 Special Bulk+Unaware to even survive 3 Hydro Pumps).
The only typings that resist Water+Dark+Fighting are Grass/Fairy, Dragon/Fairy, and Water/Fairy, the ladder 2 being weak to the potential Ice Beam (And the grasses would still be 2HKO'd by Hydro Pump after Stealth Rock, with Altaria needing to invest heavily into SpD. Hell, Primarina and Azumarill get 2HKO'd pretty easily).
Also, Chesnaught and Kommo-o technically can survive that WDF coverage, but also folds over to Ice Beam easily, and both are still hit hard with Hydro Pump anyways, despite the resistance.
The only way to resists all 4 of those moves is with Mega Blastoise is with Tapu Fini, which is easily worn down throughout a match and still doesn't like take Hidden Power Electric or Grass. And all Tapu Fini really does is Haze Blastoise, but it can only do so a few amount of times per match, if not at all if Tapu Fini is chipped down.
The only other real option for a switch in to just the Mega Shell Smash set is Pyukumuku, which is a momentum sink and only deals with Blastoise boosting.
And that isn't the best part about Mega Blastoise's Shell Smash. Mega Blastoise has 79/120/115 bulk, 78 Spe, and a pure Water typing. Unlike other Shell Smashers, Mega Blastoise has a much easier time setting up, being the second fastest SS use, having the second highest SpD (behind shuckle), the 8th highest Def (again, #1 is Shuckle, #2 is Cloyster, and between 3rd and 7th, it is pretty close and doesn't account HP), and the amazing water typing without something like rock or ice hindering, it is by far the safest Shell Smash user. And that doesn't account for Screens either, which Blastoise finds itself commonly teaming up with. That 78 Spe also makes Mega Blastoise pretty hard to revenge kill too, being one of the fastest Pokemon in the game after a Shell Smash (only being outspeed by 121 Spe +1 with positive nature, and +2 that pass base 78), and still being pretty bulky even without the screens and with the -1 Def/SpD. With Dynamaxing gone, it will be even harder to do so since revenge killers can't rely on having double HP and/or the power of Max Moves.

Secondly, that isn't all Mega Blastoise can do either.
Yeah, obviously it's Shell Smash set is the best one, but no amazing Pokemon has one singular set. Not even Unga Bunga Ice Monkey.
Mega Blastoise can still play to its good old support role, but much better now. Although Rapid Spin being buffed is nice, Life Dew is great for Mega Blastoise, which only had Rest as a way to restore HP, helping increase Blastoise's longevity. With Toxic, Life Dew, and Refresh, a supportive Mega Blastoise doesn't fear a Pyukumuku as all, which would other wall Blastoise out.
Not to mention that Blastoise also now has access to Body Press, with the combination of Curse or Iron Defense, which hits extremely hard coming off that 120 Def that can still heal itself.
 
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