Announcement National Dex Suspect 10: One More Time

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:ss/cinderace:

Hey everyone! After reviewing the results that came back from the recent survey, we have decided to suspect test Cinderace again. It has only been 3 months since its first suspect test went up, but the support for this was quite overwhelming and we believe that the metagame has shifted in a sufficient way to warrant a new test.

Suspect Test Reasoning

The original Suspect Test Reasoning reads as follows:
Cinderace has been a requested suspect pretty much ever since it gained access to Libero. Thanks to Libero, it gains STAB on every move it uses; this increases its potency as a wallbreaker by a lot. When you take the fact that it has a very colorful movepool into account, with moves like Gunk Shot for Clefable and Slowbro, High Jump Kick for Heatran, and Zen Headbutt for Toxapex, it is not hard to see why Cinderace may be difficult to deal with.

Because of its wide movepool, it requires a lot of dedication in the teambuilder; when using Toxapex as your check, you will oftentimes need a softer secondary check like Choice Scarf Landorus-T in case it is running Zen Headbutt. If you're using Heatran as a check, you will need another check like Slowbro in case it's running High Jump Kick -- you get the point. This issue is amplified even further when Cinderace is supported by a Future Sight, after which it becomes almost impossible to switch into.

Beyond that, its blistering Speed tier combined with the fact that it can hold Heavy-Duty Boots makes it incredibly hard to wear down with entry hazards; you can pretty much only wear it down through Rocky Helmet on Pokemon like Hippowdon, Toxapex, and Slowbro. However, even that isn't a foolproof solution as the Cinderace user may make smart switches instead to prevent it from being worn down too quickly.

The fact that Cinderace can even run Z-Moves on Bulk Up sets is certainly something worth noting too. While these sets have seen less and less usage as the metagame's evolved due to just how useful Heavy-Duty Boots is as an item, they still amplify Cinderace's potential as an offensive threat. Most notably, Darkinium Z + Sucker Punch can immediately overwhelm would-be-checks to Bulk Up Cinderace like Slowbro and Mega Latias. These sets generally struggle with coverage, but if it is facing the right build, it can quickly spiral out of control. It is still an extra variable to take into account.

With that said, it's not like Cinderace is entirely uncheckable; counterplay does exist. Alomomola is by far and away the best check to Cinderace; it's really only bothered by a poison from Gunk Shot, but even that doesn't make Cinderace too hard to handle. Other defensive checks like Toxapex, Hippowdon, Slowbro, defensive Landorus-T, and Heatran are certainly viable checks too, but they are quite circumstantial and otherwise struggle with longevity. Its high Speed tier does limit offensive counterplay to an extent, but Pokemon like Mega Lopunny, Ash-Greninja, and Spectrier can keep Cinderace in check.

There's also the argument that Cinderace simply cannot run every move at once. On non-Bulk Up sets, Pyro Ball and U-turn are a given, but outside of those 2 moves it has to fit 2 of Gunk Shot, Zen Headbutt, High Jump Kick, and Sucker Punch. That can certainly make it struggle in specific matchups.
Most of this still applies, but there's been 1 major change that ultimately swayed us to do this suspect test so soon: the resurgence of Z-Moves. During the first suspect test, Z-Move Cinderace was pretty much unseen, but still a threat to keep in the back of your mind. Since then, people have gone back to experiment with such sets and Bulk Up + Normalium Z Cinderace has seen a tremendous amount of success.

Bulk Up + Normalium Z Cinderace completely patches up a lot of the flaws that the previous Z-Move sets we saw had; it has excellent neutral coverage. As a result of that, Normalium Z Cinderace can very easily overwhelm a lot of its regular checks with just 1 move; Toxapex, Gliscor, and Slowbro can all be OHKOed by +1 Cinderace after very minimal chip damage. This development has ultimately led to building becoming even more complicated and typical means of checking Cinderace often not being satisfactory. We believe that Cinderace is due for another suspect test.

Suspect Test Information
  • Reading this is mandatory to participate in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, doing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
  • GXEminimum games
    8050
    80.249
    80.448
    80.647
    80.846
    8145
    81.244
    81.443
    81.642
    81.841
    8240
    82.239
    82.438
    82.637
    82.836
    8335
    83.234
    83.433
    83.632
    83.831
    8430
  • You must use a fresh account that begins with the given prefix for this suspect test. That prefix is NXACE2. For example, I could signup and qualify with the name NXACE2 Jordy.
  • You may not impersonate or mock another user with your account name. If there is any slight hesitation, you're probably better off picking a different name. We reserve the right to null your voting requisites if you are found impersonating or mocking another user with your account name. Moderator discretion will be applied.
  • If you are found trying to manipulate voting requisites in any way, you will be met with a harsh infraction. Manipulating voting requisites ranges from faking your screenshot to asking another user to forfeit.
  • The Pokemon that's being suspect tested, Cinderace, will be allowed on the National Dex ladder for the next two weeks so that we can properly assess its position in the metagame.
  • This suspect test will go on for two weeks. It will last until March the 19th at 11:59 PM GMT+1.
 
Suspect Test Rules
  • You are required to make sure that whatever you are arguing for is in-line with the Tiering Policy Framework. If what you're arguing for isn't, there's a very high chance that your post will be deleted.
  • No uninformed one liners or posts;
  • No baseless claims and arguments;
  • No discussion on other potential suspect tests;
  • No discussion on the suspect test process.
  • Your posts are expected to be respectful, please do not insult anyone.
  • If you fail to follow these rules, you may be infracted without any prior warning.
If there are any questions, feel free to PM myself or Jho. If there are any questions about the moderation of this thread, you should feel free to PM the moderation team.
 
You will be able to find thoughts of council members in this post. Their thoughts will be edited in over the next couple of days.

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Hi everyone, here with another ridiculously long post, as my my thoughts on Cinderace from the last suspect has changed. It has become even more skewed to the pro-ban side than ever before and of course I'm going to go over why.

So in my eyes, Normalium Z is a huge factor of what pushes Cinderace over, the complete lack of checks to Bulk Up Cinderace has never been so barren I feel. Being able to beat traditional checks in Toxapex, Gliscor and Slowbro barring the Mega is extremely low to the point where if you have those Pokemon as checks then Cinderace has a high chance of winning the game and I don't say this lightly. The only two Pokemon that are viable that I feel can consistently check Normalium Z Cinderace are Whirlwind Hippowdon and Mega Slowbro, Mega Slowbro in particular is good at this but, that's really all I can think of. That's not healthy whatsoever, and having to put Pokemon that are pretty hard to fit onto your team onto your team is a testament to its impact on teambuilding and overall the horrible effect it has on it as a whole. Now of course, this set mainly fits onto offensive teams isn't exactly that easy to fit onto a team that isn't skewed to the offensive department. Which moves into the next point.

Now, Heavy-Duty Boots Cinderace isn't as broken as the Normalium Z set, however I do feel that it is pretty unhealthy for teambuilding. Cinderace doesn't get worn down, at least not that often without Rocky Helmet Pokemon on your team like Landorus-T and Garchomp, its Speed combined with U-turn and and Heavy-Duty Boots means that it punishes the opponent much more than the opponent does to Cinderace, this means that Cinderace most of the time is pretty advantageous when it comes in because it's extremely hard to switch into and can pick its checks and counters. Zen Headbutt for Toxapex, Gunk Shot for Tapu Fini, Sucker Punch to get an unexpected revenge kill on something like Rillaboom for example, etc. It's also extremely easy to build around because of this, it fits on almost every bulky offense team because of how much it provides offensively, so nothing is really lost by putting Cinderace on your team. Meaning, despite not being broken like the Normalium Z set, I feel Heavy-Duty Boots adds more harm than it does good.

Cinderace should be banned.
 
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256px-Pokémonsprite_815_SWSH.gif
I am going to vote Ban for Cinderace this time and I will explain why.

Cinderace is a Pokemon that has a crazy ability with Libero, it has super good stats and since the Normaluim Z set got usage, this thing got absolutely broken, because there are no switch ins into that (except a physical def Mega Sableye which is only used by me) and not even fricking Slowbro, Hippowdon and Toxapex can win against that.

+1 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 289-342 (73.3 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 229-270 (75.3 - 88.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 276-325 (65.7 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This Pokemon is a very big problem for Teambuilding and it is able to defeat it's "checks and counters" with the right moves. It can't hit everything but way more than enough. I really wish this Pokemon wouldn't be too strong but it sadly is.
Thanks for reading and glhf with laddering :)
 
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adem

her
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”Ace has a lot of checks and counters, namely hippo, slowbro, toxapex, zapdos, moltres and defensive lando t so why would it be broken!??”

”Smogon just wants a stall filled meta, with no good breakers!”

+1 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 276-325 (65.7 - 77.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 229-270 (75.3 - 88.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 289-342 (73.3 - 86.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 289-342 (73.3 - 86.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Libero Cinderace Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian: 253-298 (66.2 - 78%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

All of aces normal ”checks” are all invalidated by z normalium, and you dont even need the chip since what is gonna swap into a +1 double edge/pyro/hjk That is not named Jellicent? This just proves that all of aces previous checks, are soft checking it at best, and isnt a switchin at worse, furthermore, non of these mons can force it out back bar like, hippo, and pex has to rely on a scald burn to actually do anything, because if it hazes, pex dies, and it opens up a lot for other breakers.

Cind isnt just some one-off breaker however, as its high speed tier, relative decent bulk+ability to swap types with its ability+bulk up make it an incrediblly threatening sweeper, + it can revenge faster mons threatening to revenge kill it with a +1 STAB boosted sucker punch.

So please get this bunny out of the tier!
 
So, despite my two or so years of playing Gen 8 Natdex, I actually have yet to experience the Normalium-Z Cinderace yet. However, even without taking that set into account, it's blatantly clear that Cinderace is a top threat to the metagame.

So, what does Cinderace has going for it? Let's take a look . . .
- Excellent attack and speed stats of 116 and 119, respectively
- A crazy good ability in Libero
- Great move-pool to work with aforementioned ability

Honestly, these three key factors already establish Cinderace as a very dangerous offensive mon. This is, in essence, a better Protean Greninja (and let's be honest, Ash-Gren is pretty much the superior Gren anyway). Add a Z-move to the mix and you have access to a one-time nuke to any of the bunny's "checks" (as adsam has already displayed a couple of calcs proving how easily Cinderace can break the checks with the Z-move).

However, in quite the contrast to Dragapult, whose Neverending Nightmare is a one-time nuke and eventually a move-slot burden, Cinderace still has plenty of viable offensive options even after exhausting a Breakneck Blitz. There's Pyro Ball, its infamous signature move that not only hits as hard as Flare Blitz, but also has no recoil; even the 90% accuracy is of little trade-off when it comes to power. Next up is High Jump Kick which, despite having serious repercussions if missed, packs so much power to break past many things that can laugh at a 120 BP Fire STAB, mainly Rock types. Gunk Shot is another great move, with its 30% chance of inflicting poison to any non-Steel/Poison tanks. Also somewhat common is Zen Headbutt, which can come as a nasty surprise to some of Fighting types. In the case of clean-up duty, Cinderace does have access to the priority move, Sucker Punch, furthermore cementing its offensive role. The bunny has also been blessed with U-Turn as a form of momentum. Last would obviously be the heavily-discussed Double Edge, which can still do a hefty amount even in its base form, although considering the other listed moves which clearly don't have any recoil, there's very little need to click that.

While the Normalium-Z definitely seems to be the rave, it's important to note that Cinderace is capable of running other sets to great effect. Although they may not be as popular as its Z-move set, these are also equally dangerous and should not be taken lightly:

Choice Band:
This, in my personal experience, is the most popular Cinderace set (or has been, considering what this suspect's main concerns are on). With a Jolly nature and a spread of max Attack/Speed EVs, the bunny does a reasonable job of out-speeding anything that isn't scarfed/can be threatened by the bunny. Going to switch to something that has a favorable match-up such as Landorus-Therian or Slowbro? Just U-Turn for momentum/damage. Think a Toxapex can reliably take a Pyro Ball? Watch in horror as it hits you up with a STAB Zen Headbutt. This set simply makes it very hard for opponents to switch into Cinderace as it can get off a nice predict for maximum damage or just simply use momentum to evade its checks.

Heavy-Duty Boots:
This is also a pretty good set. Pyro Ball was not the only signature move this asshole was gifted with. Court Change may honestly come off as useless to most considering that the only Pokémon capable of learning it is pretty frail, but like I said, get Cinderace in to the ones it threatens and it can just shift the hazards onto your side and get away scot-free thanks to the boots. Note that this thing still hits pretty hard even with the lack of a Choice Band, and that risk-free hazard control is not the only thing this guy can do.

Bulk Up:
Cinderace's access to Bulk Up is great. Being able to bolster both survivability and sweeping capabilities while possibly gaining some unexpected resistances to on-coming Dark/Rock moves are key traits that should not be overlooked. Although the bunny is still relatively frail, if +1 is all that is needed to tank and take out the threat standing before it, then it works. I did mention that I was listing other sets, but I'm kind of cheating here seeing that Bulk Up is what's being used to make that Breakneck Blitz really hurt.

Choice Scarf:
This set is honestly not as prominent as the two other sets listed, but it certainly has its uses. Being able to out-speed scarfed threats such as Excadrill and Kartana is a big plus; out-speeding naturally-fast mons such as Alakazam or Mega Beedrill is sure to give players some nightmares. And if you're worried about breaking power, just use an Adamant nature; this thing is already moderately fast.

With these four sets I've listed, this presents another problem: Cinderace has a decent number of sets it can run to good effect, making it difficult to guess which one it's running. You could guess the Choice Band, switch in with something that you believe is faster, and then get smacked by a scarf STAB. You could think it's going to hit you up with a powerful U-Turn, then watch in despair as all the hazards you worked tirelessly to set up get thrown to your side. Clearly, each set's main role is still offensive, but they all have their own way of disrupting an opponent's team with no mercy.

And there you have it. I would normally prefer to keep a neutral/anti-ban stance on wall-breakers as I love them to bits, but Cinderace simply has so much going for it. It's got all the right stats to work as a wall-breaker, it has access to three 120 BP moves (ALL which can turn into STAB moves) and some form of momentum/priority, and it can use several sets to great effect. This is, without a doubt, the best starter this game franchise has to offer barring Mega Blastoise and Mega Blaziken (and even then, I feel that the latter could get out-classed by Cinderace anyways). Unless my laddering trip experiences some horrible games to the point I have to play past 50 games, I will definitely try to attain reqs and will most certainly be voting ban.

P.S. Once this suspect is over, can you PLEASE consider Magearna next?
 

Zneon

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Hi everyone, here with another ridiculously long post, as my my thoughts on Cinderace from the last suspect has changed. It has become even more skewed to the pro-ban side than ever before and of course I'm going to go over why.

So in my eyes, Normalium Z is a huge factor of what pushes Cinderace over, the complete lack of checks to Bulk Up Cinderace has never been so barren I feel. Being able to beat traditional checks in Toxapex, Gliscor and Slowbro barring the Mega is extremely low to the point where if you have those Pokemon as checks then Cinderace has a high chance of winning the game and I don't say this lightly. The only two Pokemon that are viable that I feel can consistently check Normalium Z Cinderace are Whirlwind Hippowdon and Mega Slowbro, Mega Slowbro in particular is good at this but, that's really all I can think of. That's not healthy whatsoever, and having to put Pokemon that are pretty hard to fit onto your team onto your team is a testament to its impact on teambuilding and overall the horrible effect it has on it as a whole. Now of course, this set mainly fits onto offensive teams isn't exactly that easy to fit onto a team that isn't skewed to the offensive department. Which moves into the next point.

Now, Heavy-Duty Boots Cinderace isn't as broken as the Normalium Z set, however I do feel that it is pretty unhealthy for teambuilding. Cinderace doesn't get worn down, at least not that often without Rocky Helmet Pokemon on your team like Landorus-T and Garchomp, its Speed combined with U-turn and and Heavy-Duty Boots means that it punishes the opponent much more than the opponent does to Cinderace, this means that Cinderace most of the time is pretty advantageous when it comes in because it's extremely hard to switch into and can pick its checks and counters. Zen Headbutt for Toxapex, Gunk Shot for Tapu Fini, Sucker Punch to get an unexpected revenge kill on something like Rillaboom for example, etc. It's also extremely easy to build around because of this, it fits on almost every bulky offense team because of how much it provides offensively, so nothing is really lost by putting Cinderace on your team. Meaning, despite not being broken like the Normalium Z set, I feel Heavy-Duty Boots adds more harm than it does good.

Cinderace should be banned.
 

msnt

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I'm not going to make furthers explanations about how this thing is ridiculously broken, I made first reqs concerning Cinderace and I was convinced that this thing was healthy for the metagame. It was a sort of fast pivot really useful to put really contraining win conditions such as Kyurem for example in a really good position.
But when I did these reqs with the Jordy's HO (s/o) I realized how much z move was an issue on him, bulk up + Normalium Z is a disaster to deal with, in comparaison with dragapult, you can be sure that your Cinderace will take AT LEAST (sometimes more) one kill by game. There is nothing resisting pyro ball + hjk + Z Double Edge.
Without Z-Move I would probably vote "do not ban" but this variant makes Cinderace broken and definitely unhealthy in this metagame (even if he is a really good weapon against stall teams lol).
 

Sputnik

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Just gonna put a few of my thoughts here.

I was pretty on the fence about Cinderace at the time of the first test, but recent metagame developments have pushed me firmly into ban territory. Boots Cinderace is as good as ever of course; consistent, fast, powerful, and hard to wear down. Additionally, most of its Ground-type answers, which have evolved to include Defensive Landorus-T and TankChomp as standard, are very vulnerable to being worn down. Sure, they can wear down Ace too, but it's a race to see who gets worn down first, and if the Ace player switches intelligently and gets hazards up you can lose said engagement. This has given rise to Bunker Pex strategies and more emphasis on cores consisting of Bulky Waters and Grounds in conjunction to properly check it. Future Sight is also as good as ever and makes Ace even harder to switch into, considering that Toxapex is one of the few things that resists most of the moves that Boots Ace tends to carry.

Of course, the set that really shoves me over the line is the much-maligned Normalium Z variant. Let's go back to the Buky Water+Ground build. This has become a very common strategy to keep Ace in check. Bulk Up Normalium Z dunks on it the moment it gets to +1. Suddenly, the strategy breaks down; Toxapex and Slowbro are both taken down after minimal chip damage is applied, as do less bulky Ground-types. Even our bulkiest Ground-types, such as bulky Landorus-T and Hippowdon, aren't safe, as they can't revenge kill Ace afterwards either thanks to the effects of Libero and the bulk increase, and they need just a bit of chip to be taken down as well. It almost always forces a trade, and against a lot of builds it can take even more than that down with it. The fact that Jellicent has even been considered in this tier should be proof enough that this thing just takes names. It's even seen use outside of its original home of Hyper Offense teams, and still succeeds despite the challenge of supporting it with its shortcomings of being quite frail and Rocks weak.

So yeah, I'll be voting Ban.
 
Though Cinderace is broken and should be banned, I find that the thing that can usually beat it is Rain.

Rain is a very powerful team style, using many powerful Rain abusers such as Ash-Greninja and Zapdos with Weather Ball. Cinderace cannot switch in reliably to most Rain sweepers, including Mega Swampert's Liquidation and Ash-Greninja's weather-boosted Surf. The only thing it can switch in on is Ferrothorn, but the rain team can easily go into a Pokemon such as Zapdos to take Pyro Ball and threaten a KO.

Though I do not say that this keeps Cinderace in check or that because of this, Cinderace becomes not broken, it is certainly something to think about when voting.
 

R8

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Though Cinderace is broken and should be banned, I find that the thing that can usually beat it is Rain.

Rain is a very powerful team style, using many powerful Rain abusers such as Ash-Greninja and Zapdos with Weather Ball. Cinderace cannot switch in reliably to most Rain sweepers, including Mega Swampert's Liquidation and Ash-Greninja's weather-boosted Surf. The only thing it can switch in on is Ferrothorn, but the rain team can easily go into a Pokemon such as Zapdos to take Pyro Ball and threaten a KO.

Though I do not say that this keeps Cinderace in check or that because of this, Cinderace becomes not broken, it is certainly something to think about when voting.
The only Pokémon able to check the Normalium set under rain, if Cinderace manage to click bulk up against Ferrothorn, is Greninja Ash. Thanks to the defense boost and libero changing its typing to fighting, Mega Swampert is no longer a check:

252 Atk Swampert-Mega Waterfall vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Cinderace in Rain: 184-217 (61.1 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swampert-Mega: 394-465 (115.5 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So if it hard switch into Cinderace using bulk up, it loses. Swampert Mega is also setup fodder for cinderace if the rain is gone,

Zapdos and Pelipper can die too, if they try to switch into it directly:
252 Atk Libero Cinderace Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 207-244 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Pyro ball does the same damages if Rain isn't up) (This is the standard spread Rain is using for Zapdos by the way)
+1 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 492-579 (128.4 - 151.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 309-364 (95.6 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Libero Cinderace Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 130-154 (40.2 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO -> That 2HKOs if rocks are up.

Normalium Cinderace ALWAYS is a threat if played correctly, unless you run stuff like Jellicent or Slowbro Mega (and then die to electro ball lol).

Also, it's worth saying that Rain isn't that good right now. It's good to farm elo on the ladder, but it's hardly ever worth bringing in an important tournament battle (This is why it was only seen one time during the World Cup).


I won't developp much more my opinion on Cinderace here: i think the other posts on the thread encapsulate very well why Cinderace is stupid. As you said, FireBlastNinetales:

Cinderace is broken, and should be BANNED!
 
Though Cinderace is broken and should be banned, I find that the thing that can usually beat it is Rain.

Rain is a very powerful team style, using many powerful Rain abusers such as Ash-Greninja and Zapdos with Weather Ball. Cinderace cannot switch in reliably to most Rain sweepers, including Mega Swampert's Liquidation and Ash-Greninja's weather-boosted Surf. The only thing it can switch in on is Ferrothorn, but the rain team can easily go into a Pokemon such as Zapdos to take Pyro Ball and threaten a KO.

Though I do not say that this keeps Cinderace in check or that because of this, Cinderace becomes not broken, it is certainly something to think about when voting.
Rain isn't really good; it's dope on the ladder, but that's it. Libero actually allows it to work well around rain, being able to change to a Fighting type with Bulk Up and then living Mega Swampert's hits as a result. A +1 Normalium Z move will OHKO for sure in return. All it needs is one right opportunity to get in and it's gold.

Also, I've seen Cinderace paired with sun users before. It's not as popular, but it's worth considering if you think rain can beat the bunny alone and not the rest of its comrades.

EDIT: On a funny note, Torkoal can tank most variants of Cinderace pretty well. Unfortunately, well, it's a damn Torkoal. I love the tortoise and all, but it's pretty niche considering the meta we're living in right now. Also, the +1 Normalium Z move can still cripple it for about 75%.
 
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Guard

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:ss/cinderace:
Hi everyone! While I haven't been much into National Dex for the past couple of weeks apart from tutoring and observing NDWC games, I think it'd still be important to lay out my thoughts on the matter at hand seeing as my vocal support for keeping Cinderace unbanned was a pretty big component in it ultimately escaping the ban in its previous suspect test.

I will be upfront: I still do not believe Heavy-Duty Boots Cinderace is a bannable threat without Future Sight support. Everything in my previous assessment still stands, and on top of that -->
  • two of its best checks in Landorus-T and Slowbro are consistently dominating the usage charts. They are even more popular than at the time of Cinderace's first suspect test.
  • multiple other checks in Toxapex, Garchomp, and Gliscor aren't far behind.
  • speed control is in a better spot compared to around the time of the first suspect test; Choice Scarf Landorus-T is gluing together many contemporary teams and other options in Mega Lopunny, Ash-Greninja and its regular form, Hawlucha, and Tapu Koko have been picking up in viability.
  • multiple of these Pokemon in these previous bulletpoints are more often than not combined in a team to provide extra security.
However, it wouldn't be accurate to leave it at this, because these trends aren't exactly something to be comforted by. Frankly, these trends aren't natural developments as much as they're forced by Cinderace's presence. The pressure Cinderace had been exerting on the teambuilder at the time of its first suspect test was already cutting it close. The fact that the current teambuilder is even more hard-pressed to revolve around Cinderace is a pretty clear indicative of a greater evil pulling at strings.

This greater evil is by no means a secret to any of us; it's the advent of Normalium Z Cinderace. With it, Cinderace has finally found a way to circumvent an uncomfortably large part of the 4MSS-issues that presented themselves with previous setup variants wielding Heavy-Duty Boots / Darkinium Z / Life Orb Electro Ball / Psychium Z. The coverage that's provided by a boosted Z-Double Edge is nothing short of blasphemous. Traditional counterplay that can satisfyingly shrug it off does not exist apart from a moderately healthy Mega Slowbro, a pretty suboptimal Pokemon in the remaining context of the metagame. I don't see a need in explaining any further as to why this is remarkably distressing.

I don't have the time to go for reqs, but I urge everyone to get this blatantly broken Pokemon out of the metagame so we can move forward with evaluating a certain other bunny that's been causing headaches for months by now.
 
I voted Do Not Ban last time and didn’t share my thoughts as to why. I didn’t plan on sharing them this time either but some IRL friends of mine are starting to take interest in this format, so I’m writing this for them.

Cinderace

My mind has not been changed that non-Z move Cinderace sets are broken or unhealthy. Heavy Duty Boots pivot sets – the most common – have always felt stoppable within a comfortable enough margin in the metagame given the defensive and offensive counterplay that exists. Most of Cinderace’s common answers like Slowbro, Gliscor, Toxapex, and more loosely Mega Latias, Garchomp and Landorus-T continue to see incredibly high usage. These pokemon are not empty team slots, but rather metagame staples on their own merit, whose role compression and team support extends far beyond fulfilling the sole task of checking Cinderace. Some of its checks perform this role more or less well than others over time, but my general sense at the time of the first test was that team structures seemed adequately equipped to handle Cinderace’s common sets far more often than not. To the extent that it centralized the builder around preparing for it, I do not necessarily think that centralization is always a bad thing – especially for a tier which can, in my view, feel a bit matchup-reliant given how many non-broken threats you could reasonably run into at any given time.

There are reasonable points one could make that Cinderace does have the ability to gradually chip down, outlast, and/or selectively lure most of its dedicated counterplay. This is where it feels subjective to me as a player, and how I view the competitive balance of the interactions Cinderace promotes. Wearing down your opponent’s defensive structures until your offensive weapons have a clearer path to winning the game is what often determines who wins and loses. It is a core element of what makes this game competitive, and it is determined by player skill: whichever player is able to achieve this sooner usually deserves to win. Between Rocky Helmet as a punishing tool, Regenerator, reliable recovery on most of its checks, the rising viability of most of its offensive counterplay and the general lack of consistency of its other Z-move or lure sets, I didn’t feel that the risk-reward was so skewed as to justify a Ban vote. My personal standard is likely a bit more lenient than others, but I put a high premium on how something performs in practice over time, rather than what it can theoretically do in a vacuum, or in any one-off matchup situation.

Normalium-Z Cinderace

In light of judging things in practice versus on paper, this is where I feel it is appropriate to segue into the set at issue. I was aware of this set being discussed as problematic prior to this test, but had honestly not seen it in action, so I went into this with both an open mind and the usual questions I ask myself when judging if a set is broken or not.

I feel that this particular Cinderace set is too potent of a weapon to be allowed in this format. A lot has been made of its ability to bypass most of its aforementioned checks through sheer brute force – this alone is problematic and difficult to dispute. What I find more problematic, though, is how well this particular set functions with even minimal support. I have tested Life Orb and other Bulk Up sets in the past, but personally felt that their drawbacks were enough to hold them back. Some sets lacked adequate coverage, all sets were worn down by hazards plus traditional countermeasures to chip the HDB sets, revenge killing did not feel unreasonable, and building around these sets generally required a lot of dedicated support for a set that may or may not be worth deviating from what is tried and true.

This set, on the other hand, does not struggle with these same elements in nearly the same fashion. Fighting + Fire + Normal type coverage, coupled with Libero and a powerful Z-move, alleviates any woes about lacking coverage. It does not take enough residual damage either to justify this argument as a balancing factor; it does not take LO chip, it does not risk residual chip from U-turning on its checks, its Z-move eliminates any chip it would take on that particular turn, and the survivability provided by its Bulk Up boosts + Libero Fighting Type allow it to tank a surprising number of hits. This survivability is also partly why I feel there is not much reward for outplaying the Z-move turn – this set can still be offensively threatening and make calculated trades when necessary, even without Breakneck Blitz.

Moreover, what personally caught my interest during the 32 games I played for these suspect reqs alone was the difficulty opponents had in actually revenge killing Cinderace. For some perspective, I slapped this set onto the same 4-Sweeper Screens team I have used for every suspect since day one. Backed with screens support, hazard support on its own side and even one decent offensive partner to chip down its typical answers, it became clear to me that this set is absurd. While I do think there is a solid case that this set does still need support to be slapped onto a standard balance team, on a more standard hyper offense build (or a less standard build like the ones I prefer), it feels like this set has all the team support that it needs to thrive.

I would have preferred reaching a different conclusion, but I feel this particular variant of Cinderace is overwhelming for the tier. I will be voting Ban.
 
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