Announcement National Dex Suspect 7: Z-Move

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:ss/dragapult:
sorry for the clickbait
Hey everyone! We're back with another suspect test! The National Dex council recently held a survey and a good majority of users wanted to see Dragapult get suspect tested. We have been meaning to suspect test Dragapult for a while and after seeing such an overwhelming amount of reaffirming votes from the community, we decided that now is a good time to suspect test Dragapult!

Suspect Test Reasoning

Dragapult has been a prominent Pokemon in National Dex for a really long time, and it is notorious for the amount of 50/50s that it forces. Dragapult is perhaps the most punishing Pokemon in National Dex; it leaves no room for any misplays from the opponent and tends to leave a good amount of plays to blatant guessing. Convenient counterplay often boils down to effectively baiting Never-Ending Nightmare with a Pokemon like Clefable or Magearna and then switching into a Normal-type like Blissey. However, there is more to it than that as that is still a massive gamble to take; the Dragapult user could use Substitute instead just to scout for such a play. You can see where the line of counterplay against Dragapult gets muddy.

It isn't like Dragapult has a particularly hard time finding setup opportunities either! It can pretty easily use Pokemon like Scald Toxapex, Seismic Toss Blissey, and Scald Slowbro as setup bait. This has gone so far to the point where people have started running Ice Beam Blissey, and where Toxapex is pretty much forced to run Knock Off.

With that that all out of the way, it is not like Dragapult doesn't have counterplay or that any and all counterplay is having to bait the Z-Move, that is simply what it often boils down to given the state of the metagame. Pokemon like Mega Tyranitar, Melmetal, Mega Scizor, and Unaware Clefable do exist and are fairly good at taking care of Dragon Dance Dragapult. However, they are quite flawed answers as Mega Tyranitar and Melmetal struggle a lot with longevity, Mega Scizor cannot be worn down much or else it's in range of a boosted Never-Ending Nightmare; it also struggles against Hex variants, and Unaware Clefable simply doesn't fit well on anything other than stall teams.

Suspect Test Information
  • **This is new to National Dex suspect tests** Reading this is mandatory to participate in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 79 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 79 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 83. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 79 GXE will suffice.
  • GXEminimum games
    7950
    79.249
    79.448
    79.647
    79.846
    8045
    80.244
    80.443
    80.642
    80.841
    8140
    81.239
    81.438
    81.637
    81.836
    8235
    82.234
    82.433
    82.632
    82.831
    8330
  • You must use a fresh account that begins with the given prefix for this suspect test. That prefix is NXPULT. For example, I could signup and qualify with the name NXPULT Jordy.
  • You may not impersonate or mock another user with your account name. If there is any slight hesitation, you're probably better off picking a different name. We reserve the right to null your voting requisites if you are found impersonating or mocking another user with your account name. Moderator discretion will be applied.
  • If you are found trying to manipulate voting requisites in any way, you will be met with a harsh infraction. Manipulating voting requisites ranges from faking your screenshot to asking another user to forfeit.
  • The Pokemon that's being suspect tested, Dragapult, will be allowed on the National Dex ladder for the next two weeks so that we can properly assess its position in the metagame.
  • This suspect test will go on for two weeks. It will last until November the 22nd at 11:59 PM GMT+1.
 
Suspect Test Rules
  • You are required to make sure that whatever you are arguing for is in-line with the Tiering Policy Framework. If what you're arguing for isn't, there's a very high chance that your post will be deleted.
  • No uninformed one liners or posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspect tests;
  • No discussion on the suspect test process.
  • Your posts are expected to be respectful, please do not insult anyone.
  • If you fail to follow these rules, you may be infracted without any prior warning.
If there are any questions, feel free to PM myself or Jho. If there are any questions about the moderation of this thread, you should feel free to PM the moderation team.
 

peap

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I think DD Pult on its own is very good but manageable in this meta. But I can be convinced to vote ban when also accounting for its Hex set.

On paper, while Dragapult can break through most of the meta, I think that between DD Pult and a solidly-built balance team, the better player wins. The DD set has a small number of checks, but they are widely used and viable, unlike with Dracovish. Toxapex with Haze comes to mind, although it has to keep >71% health to avoid the OHKO from +1 Never-Ending Nightmare. Clefable is an okay check since even Bold can get bopped at +1, but at the very least it forces Dragapult to burn the Z. Mega Scizor and Tyranitar are more offensive answers. Going lower in viability, more uncommon options like Mandibuzz/Hippowdon/Melmetal/Helmet Tangrowth are hard checks. And while Dragapult terrorizes opposing balance and offense, it’s dead weight against stall and Unaware mons, like most other setup sweepers.

If Dragapult breaks something with Ghostium Z (and it usually will), the number of checks and revenge killers increases by a lot since Phantom Force is easy to play around. Common Fairy and Steel types can shrug off Dragapult’s attacks and rebalance. And if combined with a Normal type, these mons can stop Pult cold; I don’t see DD Pult sweeping entire teams often because backup checks can handle its power drop after Z.

But, when you also encounter the Hex set, the counterplay gets less reliable. Thunder Wave is spammable af and cripples Pex, Clef, etc, to make a big difference over the course of a game. Will-O-Wisp neuters attackers including Ttar. Hex 2HKOs Gliscor with Rocks. The best counter to Hex Pult is Tapu Fini, but with hazards and U-turn, Dragapult can easily grab the momentum back. Figuring out which Pult to play against on team preview can be an uncomfortable task since very few strategies can handle both at once.

Also worth mentioning that Dragapult is one of the few offensive checks to Mega Latias, Cinderace, Tapu Koko, and Greninja — other very good Pokemon will become even better in its absence. So if Dragapult is the first post-CT ban, then it likely won't be the last.
 
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Zneon

uh oh
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Got my reqs godbless, now its Pult time :blobsmirk:




So I've teased this many many times, but I feel Dragapult is very broken and should 100% be banned from National Dex, it has pretty much turned the metagame into a check Dragapult or lose metagame because that's exactly what it comes down to when playing against this Pokemon. It forces a TON of 50/50s, and you either win those 50/50s or you lose the game because Dragapult has a complete and utter lack of consistent checks, offensive checks are pretty much non-existent outside of Sucker Punch users and Weavile, and they have to also win 50/50s or in Weavile's case hope it isn't behind a Substitute before hitting it with Ice Shard, this is pretty limiting to teambuilding because you need to use a very small pool of checks to actually deal with Dragapult, and teams that do not have a way of checking Dragapult in some way have become unviable, this is pretty awful.

Let's talk about those checks, there is Mega Scizor, Mega Tyranitar, Clefable, Toxapex and Mandibuzz. There are probably more but these are the five that come to mind to me, Mega Scizor can revenge kill it with Bullet Punch depending on how much HP Dragapult is at, however its not safe if its behind a Substitute, which will happen, a lot. Mega Tyranitar is one of the few consistent checks to it and one of the best answers to it easily, it doesn't take a lot from its hits and it can Pursuit trap it, until you realise that you need to keep it healthy at all times so it isn't in Dragon Darts afterwards. Clefable is somewhat a good check however that needs to also be really healthy, Toxapex cannot prevent it from Subbing up even though it can haze it. Mandibuzz is probably the best Dragapult answer by far and in a firm consistent hard check to it, however Mandibuzz fucking sucks and has little place on most teams besides checking Dragapult.

To further add to my rambling, let's look at some NDPL replays to prove my point:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1201438330
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1193926111-taoz10qvq7j0jy4li9k8mrrdf7mpqk5pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nationaldex-525381

All of these replays have something in common, there is either at least one 50/50 that is forced when Dragapult comes in the field or showing how easily it can sweep teams when given the opportunity, and considering the amount of Pokemon that it can set a Substitute on due to its very important resistances and Speed, it's not really that hard to do.

This leads me to believe that Dragapult is not only unhealthy for the metagame but just flat out broken as well due to how it can easily it can give the user an advantage with how punishing it is, thus I'm voting to drag-a-PULT it out of the metagame.
 
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ok i just got reqs
i haven't played mons outside of small draft tournaments in over a year so forgive me if what i write isn't quite as on point as others haha

this is the team i used: https://pokepast.es/b4fd8fd4b72aaeff
I built it in five minutes, the entire teambuilding process was just me putting the four cheapest mons I could think of on one team and then slapping shuckle and zapdos-g on it for webs and defiant respectively

thoughts on Dragapult:
this mon might just be one of the cheapest mons i've ever used in any meta. i used the sub/dd ghostium set with adamant and by god i was consistently getting 1-2 kills with it every match, usually on their steel-type or their pex, which meant that my volcarona could sweep later on in the game. (i also hp ground on volc + superpower on rillaboom to lure tran and ferro respectively which made a lategame dragapult that much scarier). +1 ghostium eradicates almost every mon on the ladder bar... full physdef m-scizor, mandibuzz and m-ttar? and the latter two are heavily pressured by +1 dragon darts, the fact that it hits twice means that you can crit-fish and kill a mandibuzz if you get behind a substitute before it comes in. iirc at +1 dragon darts does around ~24% to mandibuzz per hit depending on the spread, so just one crit is enough to muscle through that mon.

more importantly, the specs or WoW/Hex sets just beat its normal counterplay. physdef corvi / m-scizor both instantly die to fire blast and hate taking WoWs, any ttar is pressured by u-turn obviously and mandibuzz hate specs draco. thing is most dragapult teams put heavy pressure on thoes mons anyways so that's fucking epic. being faster than the previously meta-defining ash gren is also very nifty (or at least bluffing the fact that you're faster if you're running adamant)

the only 100% reliable counter i found to this mon was LO wigglytuff which i ran into on the ladder once and lost to quite embarrassingly

probably gonna vote ban i hate this thing with a fiery passion
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I´ll be voting no ban and here's my reasoning.

I just don't think Dragapult is too much for the tier. It's really good but not broken imho. In my time playing both against it and with it it is actually pretty underwhelming in some match ups. I don't think it restricts teambuilding in an unhealthy way because all the stuff that checks it are pretty viable in OU. I think there's enough counterplay available and at worse if your counter dies you can still potentially outplay the Z move and live a hit with another mon because Dragapult isn't that strong at +1 without a Z or you can pressure it to not get the DD up in the first place. With all the new mons we got from the DLC multiple of these Dragapult answers are simultaniously answers to things like Spectrier. So those mons are still good to use even if Dragapult were to leave. It's true however that Spectrier forces you to have a ghost resist, Regieleki forces you to have a Ground type and so on but that's a topic for another day. The overpreparedness for Dragapult might be clouding my judgement a little bit I´ll admit but if Pokemon can be prepared for sufficiently (which I think there's sufficient counterplay not like Dracovish who´s a walking unlimited Z move without the need of a Z) then I don't think it it should be banned. I´ve seen the other argument that the hex set can get past it's counters and I just don't think it's that good of an argument because that set is no where near broken.
 
My initial thought about this was: "Heck yeah brothers. I'm tired of playing mind games to bait the Z-move out only to see their Dragapult proceeds to do 20 more DD as I switch in and out". But then I actually do the requirements and funny enough, never once I was swept by a DD Dragapult.

Remember when Z-move was first introduced and people started to slap it on Volcarona, turned it into a freaking nightmare after 1 Quiver Dance? But unlike Volcarona, Pult doesn't care about rock, and nothing in the tier resists both of its STAB. Except from the insanity that is people start using Wigglytuff. At this point, most of us would say that's how unhealthy Pult is and how it should be gone. Well hold on.

First of all, it's really hard to find a single mon in the tier that can do absolutely nothing to Pult. Even redundant utility like 0 Sp.Atk Pelipper Hurricane does like 50% and could seriously ruin Pult. I can't tell you how many Pult has knocked itself out after 1 DD because of confusion during my requirements. Pult also has no recovery and its frailty makes it super prone to priority. Even resisted Water Shuriken from regular Greninja takes away around 20%.

The worst case of scenario with the most passive mon I can think of in the tier is Blissey/Chansey. Well then please do not attempt to status with your Blissey/Chansey, it's really sad. Immediately switch to your fairies, Moon Blast to break its subs as Pult's doing its DD. And then proceed to play one of the best mind game in current meta.

IMHO, if you let Dragapult finish a DD and still behind a subs. It's kinda your own fault and downfall, isn't it? Or may I say, DownPault (sorry).

In conclusion, I think Dragapult is pretty damn close to be broken. But playing with or against it still doesn't feel as oppressed as its previously banned dragon brother. Instead it actually feels like a lot of fun. Predicting and counter predicting have always been one of the best part about competitive play, and Dragapult puts the boat pretty damn far out there with that aspect.

I will vote it to stay. But if the majority of us doesn't feel the same way, then I'm still fine with it being gone too.
 
I think that between Dragapult's high speed and just good enough bulk that it can seem overwhelming to deal with on paper.

In reality, it really only has one move to attack with after it burns Never-Ending Nightmare. Due to its 88/75/75 bulk, it can really only set up on the most passive of mons, as even strong resisted hits do wayy too much for it to substitute. Rillabooms Grassy Glide does almost 50%. In the linked replays above, all of the Dragapult users was playing against incredibly passive teams. Obviously things like Pex, Alolo and Gliscor aren't really going to be able to stop Dragapult from boosting multiple times and having its way with a team. That's the opportunity cost of running teams with little to no offensive presence.

I'm voting for it to stay.
 
I will be voting no ban for Dragapult and this is why.


I really don't think Dragapult is broken. It's bulk isn't amazing with 88 75 75 and it gets a 2HKO by the most non resistent moves, so it's not very easy to get a Dragon Dance. That means also that a Substitute gets destroyed very easily.

The second problem for Dragapult is that it has a bad physical ghost move with Phantom Force. It's true that Dragapult always uses a ghostium z, which makes it using a ghost move with a Base Power of 175 which can't fail because of it's accuraty for 1 time in a battle. But if Dragapult already used it's z move, it only has 1 viable move which is Dragon Darts. Phantom Force isn't good in general, because it hurts the opponent in the second turn, which means that the opponent can easily switch in any normal types or Pokemons like Tyranitar which can trap Dragapult with Pursuit for example.

And of course Dragapult has checks and counters like every other Pokemon too, and there are more then enough. The most Dragapult checks and counters are very popular mons which are in almost every team but not only because of Dragapult. It gets pressured by priority moves, Dark, Ice and Fairy mons and other bulky mons like Corvigknight if Dragapult already used it's z move. And if 1 counter is already dead, you can still outplay the z move if you have a normal type in your team.
 
I will be voting no ban for Dragapult and this is why.


I really don't think Dragapult is broken. It's bulk isn't amazing with 88 75 75 and it gets a 2HKO by the most non resistent moves, so it's not very easy to get a Dragon Dance. That means also that a Substitute gets destroyed very easily.

The second problem for Dragapult is that it has a bad physical ghost move with Phantom Force. It's true that Dragapult always uses a ghostium z, which makes it using a ghost move with a Base Power of 175 which can't fail because of it's accuraty for 1 time in a battle. But if Dragapult already used it's z move, it only has 1 viable move which is Dragon Darts. Phantom Force isn't good in general, because it hurts the opponent in the second turn, which means that the opponent can easily switch in any normal types or Pokemons like Tyranitar which can trap Dragapult with Pursuit for example.

And of course Dragapult has checks and counters like every other Pokemon too, and there are more then enough. The most Dragapult checks and counters are very popular mons which are in almost every team but not only because of Dragapult. It gets pressured by priority moves, Dark, Ice and Fairy mons and other bulky mons like Corvigknight if Dragapult already used it's z move. And if 1 counter is already dead, you can still outplay the z move if you have a normal type in your team.
This. A +1 Ghostium-Z move is very powerful, but once it's been used, that's that. Phantom Force just becomes that waste of a move-slot that takes two turns to actually damage the opponent (and can be played around quite easily because of that). That said, the one-time Nuke can sometimes be all it takes to win a game.

And although it's rarely used, we can't forget the specially-offensive variants (100 Sp. A isn't too bad). However, with a noticeably higher Attack stat and set-up in Dragon Dance, you definitely want to go physical, and that kinda screws Dragapult a bit when you consider that it's only got one physical Ghost move that isn't exactly fabulous (seriously, no Shadow Sneak either?).
 
Here i come for the first time in my life for a suspect huh? welp Here Goes Nothing. Pretty much my reason of Ban is gonna come because of some reasons

1605559856431.png


1: DD It's pretty much what many people would guess why pult could be considered either broken or not actually that good because of the set being just 1 thing, but even when you got high usages of M-Ttar or Clefable this thing is a nightmare, for starters i'm not talking about pokemon starters smh Pult always forces 50/50s on a game that come in with the Ghostium Z, since its either dying because the Z-Move has gotten the fairy and losing the game or getting the Z correctly into a bulky resist or a normal type, which makes pult useless afterwards, Phantom Force is obviously a bad stab to have because of how easily it can be played around after the Z-Move has been used but that's just IF YOU manage to do it correctly,
this thing can be a life saver sometimes as shown in some replays from it.

2: The Hex And Specs Sets. These are basically the way that pult gets around his checks and counters, having stuff like phys def Clefable, phys def Tangrowth, Melmetal, M-Ttar, etc are always nice For DD Variants which is where these 2 sets come into play, most of them just fall down completely because of them since they cant be prepared for all the sets at once, sure they have more counterplay but your always going to expect a DD Pult against your opponent or else your just gonna get danced into death, the most notable one being Clefable

252 SpA Dragapult Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

as for the one that stands up as one of the best choices against Dragapult, M-Ttar. This one has to get in anything that's not a u-turn because otherwise it gets chipped through the game and won't be surviving to check pult later, or it just gets burned by wisp but that one leaves pult either barely living or dead depending on the conditions

252+ Atk burned Tyranitar-Mega switching boosted Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 217-256 (68.4 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

i honestly don't like how people are ignoring that pult has other options other than DD since these sets can turn the tables on the right spots.

3: The Bulk. This one is apparently because of pult low defenses making it hard to get on the field or take any hit, but that's just wrong, sure his defenses are poor but Ghost/Dragon is an awesome defensive typing as shown by the lord of the distortion world, even with the cons that it brings, which allows it to take some hits from offensive pokemon like Cinderace or Rillaboom if needed, the former running sucker punch sometimes because of it, obviously it's not perfect but Dragapult does make the most use out of it

4: My Last Breath Thoughts. I know this thing obviously has flaws because even the things i said here don't make it a truly perfect mon, its still fragile, when the set is revealed you know what to do which is more notable on hex and specs set, and also that you need to predict well with it on the normal and fairy combos that are one of the reasons this thing has 50/50s everywhere but in the end my opinion about this mon doesn't change. I'm pretty sure i went either maybe too much or i'm missing some points but i think you can get where i am going with this, since this thing has started to be more and more dangerous to the point where some people are bringing Wigglytuff or M-Audino lol, but in the end im voting for blasting this mon out of the tier for good.
 

Solaros & Lunaris

Hold that faith that is made of steel
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:ss/dragapult:

Dragapult should be banned from National Dex. This post will be discussing the two sets that define Dragapult’s presence in the metagame—Dragon Dance and Will-O-Wisp + Hex—and, in my opinion, push it over the edge (especially the former). I will also discuss the ability of the metagame to counter Dragapult, as well as how it aids Dragapult into becoming a major threat.

I. Dragon Dance

This is inarguably Dragapult’s best set and one of the best sweepers in the metagame. Once Dragapult sets up a Dragon Dance, its offensive counterplay is only limited to unresisted priority moves from (most notably) Weavile, Mega Lopunny, and Mega Scizor. However, these options become futile once Dragapult pops a Substitute in front of them, which lets it set up on passive, status reliant Pokemon like Blissey, Toxapex, and Specially Defensive Heatran. Dragapult’s STABs are nigh unresisted in the tier, and its limited defensive counterplay (Mega Tyranitar, Melmetal, Clefable, Toxapex, Whirlwind Hippowdon, Rocky Helmet Tangrowth, etc.) are either susceptible to the Spikes that Dragapult is so often paired with or are melted by the Z-Move. As a result, Dragapult has no qualms with simply cleaving through a balanced team where their Clefable or Toxapex has taken a bit of chip.

Now, I know what you’re thinking right now. Why not just run two ”soft” Dragapult checks and just cut your losees once one takes the Z-move? To that I answer this: Do I need two Dragapult checks (who often don’t fit too well together outside of the aforementioned ClefPex) just to handle one mon? It seems pretty restricting to do thjs given the sheer number of threats present in the metagame, not to mention that other threats like Mega Latias or Reuniclus that can easily circumvent these cores. (More on this in Part III) This also effectively disallows at least one, if not both of these Pokemon from taking alot of chip damage, which is especially notable with Pokemon like Melmetal and Clefable, who are dead to a Z-Move the instant they drop below 90%. This basically means you’re playing 5v6, and the opponent loves to take advantage of this, especially with the Hyper Offenses that Dragapult is nigh mandatory for.

Lastly, I want to address one thing that turns Dragapult into a slot machine that it has complete control over: the Z-Move. Your ClefPex core has taken a bit of chip during your opponent’s offensive assault, and Dragapult has Dragon Danced on your Clef. No matter, you’ll just go to Pex to take the Z-move.....oh, he just Subbed again. Or DDanced again. And you’ve been had. You’ve been forced completely onto the backfoot, and at best its getting a trade, and at worst it takes the game. This is an example of the sheer pressure Dragapult puts on teams that don’t have hard checks. One misstep out of your favor and suddenly you have to type “GG” in chat. This is the set that makes Dragapult an unhealthy, if not outright broken, presence in the metagame, and why I believe it should be banned. But there’s one other set that really catches you off-guard....

2. Will-O-Wisp + Hex

This is Pult’s second set, whose counterplay is pretty interesting compared to Dragon Dance’s. I’ve definitely used this set less, but I do consider it just as dangerous as the above. The set runs Will-O-Wisp, Hex, U-turn, and a filler move (Dragon Darts, Draco Meteor, even Thunder in earlier metagames) alongside Heavy-Duty Boots (or Electrium Z if Thunder). This set cripples many Pokemon with debilitating burns and dishes out strong Hexes, who really bring the pain should your Pokemon not be a Ghost resist. Something notable about this set is its ability to lure and severely damage or outright retire some of the Dragon Dance set’s counterplay, as Pokemon such as Melmetal, Mega Tyranitar, and Mega Scizor despite burn damage, while Toxapex and Clefable aren’t keen to take a boosted Hex. In addition, this set can freely escape non-CB Tyranitar variants, as even a switch-boosted burned Pursuit does paltry damage. Lastly, the combination of U-turn and Boots makes it decently difficult to wear Dragapult down as an offensive pivot, effectively making it a pseudo-Cinderace. This set definitely adds another layer of danger to Dragapulr, and I think it deserves to be brought up even if it isn’t broken, as it aids in the already matchup-esque nature of Dragon Dance Dragapult.

III. The Metagame

Dragapult, especially with Crown Tundra’s release, adores the current metagame state. With the rise of Medicham/Mawile offenses featuring BlissBro backbones, a decent showing of Hyper Offense thanks to Cinderace and Rillaboom, and the sheer number of Spikes laying on the field, it is no surprise that Dragapult can simply go ham even when prepared for. The addition of Aura Sphere Latias has put Tyranitar and Weavile on the backfoot in usage, and the usage of Pokemon like Zapdos over Mandibuzz for their better Defogging ability has put Dragapult at the front of the tier. For Hyper Offense teams, it is often capable of at least trading to open a hole for its teammates, or can take a stray Water Shuriken from Ash-Greninja to set up and end a game on the spot. Every game with a Dragapult centers around not letting it set up, leading to an unhealthy number of 50/50s in the Dragapult player’s favor.


For the reasons stated above, and the reasons posted by others in this thread, Dragapult should be banned from the National Dex metagame. At the very least, it is an unhealthy presence that haunts the teambuilder, and at worst, it is a broken, low risk/high reward Pokemon capable of stealing games from whatever turn it comes in.
 
Alright so this is my first time writing a post like this, so excuse me if it's a bit less streamlined then say, Solaris's. My current stance on Dragapult is that is unhealthly, and thus should be banned.

1. Ghost Z Ruined My Marriage
First off is its primary set, Dragon Dance Ghostium Z. On paper, Darts/Phantom Force it seems like a solid, yet checkable mon. The issue, however, lies in in Ddance and subsitute. Subsitute in paticular is what allows Pult to circumvent regular counterplay and put the opponent into a pitfall of 50/50 in Pult's favor. It essentially boils down to play perfectly or lose a mon at best and and lose the game at worse due to Pult being nearly impervious to revenge killing after nuking said check courtesy of outspeeding everything at +1 and surviving all common priority bar Weavile's Ice Shard, Cinderace Sucker and Mmaw Sucker after sub chip, with sucker being a 50/50 in itself.

2. It Hexed My Elo
Let's say you play perfect, you go hard Fini/Ttar on a Dragapult switch. Not giving it the time of day to set up. Oh shit, your Fini just got obliterated by Elec Z, your Ttar got burned, day ruined, dissapointment immeasurable. It's time to talk about the Hex set. If we referred to Pult as only being able to use the DDance set, I could *understand* the debate of it being a non ban worthy threat. However, the Hex sets merit is too great to ignore as they flip conventional counterplay on its head with being able to punish your Ttar's, Curse Scizor's, Mawile's, etc with dehibiltating status and harassing your Pex's, Clef's, Gliscor's etc. with boosted Hexes. The main appeal with this set, (besides the versality such as running Boots and Uturn to be an amazing pivot /Elec Z to destroy would be Pex/Fini switch ins/Spell Tag to bully with Hex spam or spamming Twave over Wisp) is exploiting the overhwhelming presence of Dd Pult and forcing crippling status on opponents.
3. Flaws of Pult/Final Thoughts
There are flaws of Pult. DD Pult, if misplayed it can kinda drop to MTar or be walled endlessly by the Blissey + Fairy combo if the Z Move is successfully baited, and Hex Pult can fall flat against mons such as Blissey, Tran to an extent, etc. and both sets fall on their face against stall. Overall though, the lack of consistency of counterplay bar the extraordinarily niche Poeygon 2 (unless you want run Mega Audino/Wigglytuff lmao) and 50/50s needed against Pult and the havoc it can easily if it sets up is unheathly and so I'm voting ban.
 
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I have a couple points I really want to make regarding Dragapult so I’ll skip the long windup this time – I’m a Do Not Ban vote on Dragapult. The previous Ban posts make some fair points, and yes there are other viable sets (either in their own right or as lures), but this suspect is basically about Dragon Dance + Ghostium Z Dragapult and that set will be my main focus. Nothing else I have to say will be relevant if I don’t explain why I don’t think this set isn’t broken to begin with, so let’s start with the three main Ban arguments and unpack why I don’t think they stand.

Dragapult Checks & Counterplay

In fairness, I will start with what I think is the best Ban argument first: that Dragapult has limited counterplay after a Dragon Dance and almost always results in the loss of at least one pokemon as a result. I consider this a fair argument because to me, offensive counterplay is just as important as defensive counterplay, and no viable pokemon organically outspeeds Dragapult after a single Dragon Dance besides a Jolly Scarf Dragapult of your own. So what you are typically left with is three options. One, you can run a playstyle that has a way of mitigating this problem, e.g. Sand Rush Jolly Excadrill + Tyranitar, Swift Swim Kingdra, Unburden-activated Hawlucha, Trick room, webs.. etc., but this requires you to commit to a certain type of build, which is not ideal. Second, you can run priority users in the form of Mega Mawile, Cinderace and Mega Lopunny, and to a lesser extent Bisharp and Aegislash, to outplay or revenge it that way. Third, you can either bait the Z-move with something that can defensively sponge the hit, or at worst, sac a mon and ease counterplay significantly from that point forward. These are obviously not the most stable or secure forms of consistent counterplay and that is why I will reiterate again that this is, to me, the best Ban argument.

With that said, there is another side here worth mentioning. I don’t think Balance teams – the archetype most threatened by Dragapult – are so starved for options to the point that they have to go out of their way to handle Dragapult. Options like Sucker Punch Mega Mawile and/or Cinderace are very solid picks, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Scizor or Hippowdon do well to check it defensively, and common cores of Normal+Fairy type (Mega Lopunny / Blissey + Clefable/Fini/Magearna) are staples on many teams. If you feel comfortable predicting and playing mindgames, you have options for that, and if you are less comfortable doing that, there are sturdier defensive answers for you to pick from that are viable outside of this single task. How you prefer to build and play the game will strongly impact how you view checking Dragapult, but I think there are enough options available regardless of your personal preference to keep Dragapult in check for a standard balance team.

"50/50 Turns" & Eliminating Player Skill

While I view the checks and counterplay argument as the strongest argument for Do Not Ban to overcome, the next two points are where the Ban arguments really overplay their hand and fall apart for me. Let’s start with “Dragapult creates [buzzword of choice] 50/50s and invalidates player skill”. This will probably come down to player preference and personal philosophy about how Pokemon is played, but I strongly disagree with this per se notion that has come up in this suspect (and many others) that 50/50 turns are inherently uncompetitive, or that they take the game out of players’ hands. The entire premise of Pokemon as a competitive game comes down to managing risk, weighing odds, controlling the variables you can control, and drawing a conclusion from your opponent’s plays, tendencies and their team structure about what they are likely to do. The common counterpoint to this is that “mere guesswork” is not skill, but I disagree that outplaying Dragapult constitutes guesswork when the Ghostium Z set itself is well-known, options for outplaying it are both viable and common, and the only thing required of the player is to execute the turns better than the opponent.

The second counterpoint is “but those 50/50 turns heavily favor the Dragapult user”, which I also strongly disagree with. Pulling the trigger on the Z-move from the Dragapult user’s perspective is critically important because getting that play wrong leaves you with a mon that cannot break (or at times even touch) the opposing team. This is what separates it from something like offensive Magearna, where burning your Z-move on the wrong turn doesn’t render it useless for the rest of the game, but merely hampers its own ability to break through its checks and sweep until a later time. You will never break ClefPex, BlissBro, LandoMag or whatever other core without your Z-move. Dragapult gets one chance to shoot his shot and then you either hit it or you didn’t.

Punishing Passivity in the Metagame

The final point I want to respond to is this notion that Dragapult thrives in the current metagame in a way that is unhealthy. I would argue strongly in the alternative that punishing passivity in a tier where Clefable, Toxapex, Blissey and Mega Latias are S-tier in viability (and even Slowbro(!!?) is getting mentioned for a suspect test) is actually a very desirable and healthy quality. I am absolutely not a stall-hater, and obviously Dragapult isn’t the only option we have to punish these mons. However I don’t see why punishing S-tier passive mons is considered an unhealthy trait, while these mons being solidly S-tier to begin with is not even remotely a cause for concern going forward, or the fact that apparently over half of the people who achieved reqs to vote Dragapult out did so using at least two different variants of stall itself. Clearly passivity is thriving in the current metagame and the fact that Dragapult punishes that is to me healthy, or at least doesn’t seem to be a debilitating problem.

Conclusion

I recognize again that I am in the minority here, and nothing in my post is meant to suggest that the other Ban posts did not effectively advocate their side (I think I’m the only DNB person that “liked” the other Ban posts). I am simply concerned about setting a precedent that certain types of turns or gameplay is inherently uncompetitive going forward, concerned about the growing passivity as I perceive it within the tier, and concerned about losing a mon that I have used since January for every single suspect test that I do not perceive as broken in the current metagame.
 
The problem i have with pult is that, from the get-go, unless there is another very obvious Z user on their team you absolutely HAVE to assume it is DD Z. You have no other choice. If you do not react appropriately to a potential DD immediately you will lose.
And yeah, most of the time it IS DD Z. Until it isn't. Then whatever you brought in as an answer just got crippled and will suffer to its hex later unless it is Mega Ttar.
And then you bring your mega ttar in confident that you will beat either set and then it 2hko's you with choice band. (Seen it happen twice in 1500+ ELO, for those doubting it happens)
DD Z is such a ridiculously potent set that it forces you to disregard pult's other options until you know for sure what it is running.
Even with the constraints of DD Z it still only needs 2 attacks. The 4th move may most frequently be taken up by substitute but it still can run things like uturn to chip down its supposed counters until it can sweep, or something like fire blast to further invalidate soft checks like ferrothorn and scizor. (As well as letting it save its Z move to drop on a different answer)

Shit needs to go. I've said since gen 7 that Z moves would be so much less obnoxious if they announced their presence like some abilities do, Pult exemplifies this better than anything.
Will try and get reqs later but I live an overnight life and all the ladders besides OU have been dead af for me lately.


Also, I just thought of this a day later, but I can't help but notice that a lot of the anti ban sentiment revolves around common cores that check pult. Never a single mon always two or more.
Because that's what we need more of: offensive threats so potent it further prevents stall users from actually managing to fit an offensive wincon on their team and increasing net suffering for all involved. It doesn't discourage or punish stall, it just forces them to run even more fat in preparation.
 
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I will personally be voting do not ban on Dragapult. Many times have I considered flipping over but after a fair amount of playing in this metagame I have noticed a lack of usage of other mons that can reliably answer Dragapult without getting too heavily punished.

Player skill differential:

One thing that I particularly like about Dragapult in this metagame is that it tends to promote careful analysis of team structures and play to be used to its best potential. This to me is exclusively a benefit - for the most part I believe that a good metagame should be able to reduce matchup to a bearable level whilst maximizing skill in play. Dragapult ends up fitting these requirements for me as the checks individually to all of the sets are quite fast but because of that careful team analysis you have to know when you could be stumbling into the wrong variant. But for most checks, this is not too major of a punish if they get the prediction of DD Z move wrong. For some checks, the opposite can be devastating (for example, Blissey) but to me this is an inherent risk vs reward with using Blissey as the main Dragapult check - and for the most part, it isn't too threatening if you get this prediction wrong given the right team structure as it will likely only take 1 kill at best.

The "kill" button:

One major argument I see about Dragapult is how getting DD Z's play wrong will often result in a sweep. I actually think this tends to go with a lot of good Z move users - Magearna, Kartana - even some lesser variants like Hydreigon and Cinderace can easily leave you in the wrong position if you predict the Z move wrong. One may mention Dragapult's insane speed as a way to refute the revenge killing argument, however, one thing that isn't mentioned is how a lot of Steel-types can revenge kill Dragapult anyway due to the lack of coverage it has for them. Heatran, Ferrothorn, Magearna, Magnezone and the like can all check Dragapult after its Z move has been burned just the same way revenge killers like Cinderace would be able to check Magearna after its Z move has been dumped. Whilst this isn't air-tight as an argument, and leaves a lot of loopholes to promote that potentially all of these Pokemon could also be broken, I do believe this is something to consider quite heavily.

Pult's presence in the metagame, and how its partners can seemingly push it over:

Be warned - this part of the post is slightly rambly. If you're looking for arguments that are specific to not banning Pult this is probably not the part of the analysis you are looking for, this goes more into depth about how the other partners are broken alone and how Dragapult abuses them (aside from Rillaboom).

:ss/cinderace: Cinderace:

These two in particular actually form a really frustrating core to deal with. Because of how broken and variable Cinderace is, it can pair multiple sets with multiple combinations of Dragapult and force out other good answers to it. 4 Attacks Cinderace can form a really annoying dual pivot core with Hex Pult - and there are multiple different variations to boot, like Triple Death Move (Pyro/HJK/Gunk) Cinderace + Electrium Pult, and GunkZen Cinderace + Twave Hex Pult. However, one may instead question what individually one of the two tends to do, and for me the most overbearing parts land on Cinderace for being an insanely restrictive mon due to its amazing coverage moves, and pairings with almost any broken on this list, and even some outside of the list that Pult would not pair well with either, like Slowbro, Tapu Koko, Hydreigon, etc.

:ss/latias-mega: Mega Latias:

These two actually synergize very well on paper but I generally tend to feel like due to the conflicting natures which DD Z pult and Mega Latias exhibit, teams with both of them generally tend to feel like they are gasping for air when revenge killing is taken into account. Other pairings like Hex Dragapult do tend to work much better but tend to rely on the opponent bringing specific answers like Mega Tyranitar and overloading them without the opponent being able to win first. For me, I yet again feel like a lot of the pressure done by this is caused by the restrictive checks that Mega Latias has and its ability to switch up coverage moves and completely change its checklist is what makes it the more broken partner.

:ss/rillaboom: Rillaboom:

Rillaboom's synergy with Dragapult is a very awkward one. Indeed, you could argue that this isn't on the same level as the other partners, and I'd intend to agree with you on that. What this does exhibit is how powerful these two are as support for HO, and occasionally general offensive styles, too. DD Z Dragapult + SD Rillaboom is a very powerful and common core on HO due to the fact that both can overwhelm some Rillaboom checks very easily, and Rillaboom just so happens to be capable of outright eliminating some good Dragapult checks for it. The only issue is when the Dragapult check is something like Knock Toxapex or Clefable, then the two just don't connect very well. And that often happens to be the case with a lot of these Dragapult cores - they tend to fail under a lot of matchups.

I'd like to share some opinions of arguments I have from this thread.

Punishing Passivity in the Metagame

The final point I want to respond to is this notion that Dragapult thrives in the current metagame in a way that is unhealthy. I would argue strongly in the alternative that punishing passivity in a tier where Clefable, Toxapex, Blissey and Mega Latias are S-tier in viability (and even Slowbro(!!?) is getting mentioned for a suspect test) is actually a very desirable and healthy quality. I am absolutely not a stall-hater, and obviously Dragapult isn’t the only option we have to punish these mons. However I don’t see why punishing S-tier passive mons is considered an unhealthy trait, while these mons being solidly S-tier to begin with is not even remotely a cause for concern going forward, or the fact that apparently over half of the people who achieved reqs to vote Dragapult out did so using at least two different variants of stall itself. Clearly passivity is thriving in the current metagame and the fact that Dragapult punishes that is to me healthy, or at least doesn’t seem to be a debilitating problem.
For the record I actually think that Dragapult is pretty poor at punishing passivity. What it does best is punish offense - most balances will often have hard checks like Knock Off Toxapex or Clefable that can easily scout most variants and can at worst deal significant chip damage to a perfectly played DD Z set. However, the checks on offense are slightly limited. For the most part, the checks I have been using on offense are Melmetal and Mega Tyranitar, however, Magearna can also work given a heavy amount of Defense investment, and other checks such as Mega Scizor can pull off the assumption quite well. The punishment from other sets like Specs and Hex can be pretty heavy to these partners, however they are not heavy enough to be game-ending either. That being said, the playstyles of each also tend to be different, and for me it is easy to tell whether a player is playing DD or not, as DD is pretty poor as an overall Pokemon at forcing things out if the Z move is not burned. That being said, I do agree with the other two parts of the argument, I just believe that the idea of punishing passivity in the metagame tends to be a strawman argument that can take away from actually relevant points.

Also, I just thought of this a day later, but I can't help but notice that a lot of the anti ban sentiment revolves around common cores that check pult. Never a single mon always two or more.
Because that's what we need more of: offensive threats so potent it further prevents stall users from actually managing to fit an offensive wincon on their team and increasing net suffering for all involved. It doesn't discourage or punish stall, it just forces them to run even more fat in preparation.
I don't really think this is the case with Dragapult - checks are plenty enough to every set such so that stall will not have problems accomodating for it. Stall cores have barely changed in adaptation to Dragapult - maybe the occasional Knock Off Toxapex exists but the amount of Unaware users and easy pivots that exist on there already don't really effect stall's supposed inability to fit a wincon. That being said no wincon stall sux, but will always exist unless you have so many strong offensive threats that it is practically impossible to wall everything without revenge killing (see: SM metagame). So I don't really think Dragapult is doing much in the way of making stall more defensive than it already was.

These are the thoughts that I have had to come to the conclusion of voting do not ban. But this is just my overall opinion, and so some points don't make too much sense in the context of a suspect test. I just wanted to get my thoughts out.
 
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