Announcement National Dex Suspect Test 14: ghost girl

Status
Not open for further replies.

Kate

Metamodernity
is a Tiering Contributoris a Past SCL Champion
RBTT Champion
C0643501-EED5-4EEB-A08F-79B898133455.png

:ss/Dragapult:

Hey y'all! The NDOU council has decided to suspect Dragapult this time. Dragapult was originally banned back in late 2020 mostly due to its constraints on teambuilding and incredibly threatening Dragon Dance set. However, a recent community poll showed high support for a retest, so here we are!

While Dragapult may appear to be much the same as it was when it was first banned, quite a lot has changed for the metagame at large. The departures of both Magearna and Cinderace not only massively free up the teambuilder, but have led to declines in usage of mons that pult would regularly use as set up fodder, like no Ice Beam Slowbro. Additionally, the sharp uptick in Bulky and regular Offense can come as a sharp hindrance to Dragapult. Defensive Landorus-Therian, Fake Out Mega Lopunny, Tapu Fini, and Weavile all serve as Pult checks or revenge killers that have seen much greater usage recently. One of the problems with this Pokemon that was often mentioned in its first suspect was its extreme reliance on Ghostium Z to break past teams, something that could potentially be predicted and render Dragapult unable to efficiently break.

However, Dragapult does not only possess a DD set. Specs and Wisp sets have great potential, able to flip the script on Physically Defensive answers or U-Turn out of bad matchups, all while still having Pults nigh unrivaled speed tier, which notably lets it outspeed the entire unboosted meta bar the uncommon Zeraora. DD also cannot be overstated on how deadly it can be. While it is very reliant on its Z move, correctly popping it can end games on the spot. Additionally, the more offensive metagame can also be a great boon to Pult, as its speed and power allow it to revenge kill and tear holes through weakened offensive structures, all while potentially grabbing a Substitute vs common mons on these builds, such as Rotom-Wash and Volcarona. Dragapults nifty set diversity, ludicrous speed, solid power level, dangerous movepool, and passable bulk along with a solid typing are sure to make it a top tier Pokemon, but is it busted?

Suspect Test Information
  • This is new to National Dex suspect tests! Reading this is mandatory to participate in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. However, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, doing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
    GXEminimum games
    8050
    80.249
    80.448
    80.647
    80.846
    8145
    81.244
    81.443
    81.642
    81.841
    8240
    82.239
    82.438
    82.637
    82.836
    8335
    83.234
    83.433
    83.632
    83.831
    8430
  • You must use a new account that begins with the given prefix for this suspect test. The prefix is NDPULT. For example, I could signup and qualify with the name NDPULT Kate.
  • Impersonating or mocking another user with your account name, or using an account name that breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules is not allowed. If there is any slight hesitation, you're probably better off picking a different name. We reserve the right to null your voting requisites if you are found impersonating or mocking another user with your account name. Moderator discretion will be applied.
  • If you are found trying to manipulate voting requisites in any way, you will be met with a harsh infraction. This can range from faking your screenshot to asking another user to forfeit.
  • The Pokemon that's being suspect tested, Dragapult, will be allowed on the National Dex ladder for the next two weeks, to give an idea on how it would affect the metagame.
  • The suspect test will go on for two weeks. This suspect test will last until March 6th at 11:59 PM GMT-5.

Suspect Test Rules
  • You are required to make sure that whatever you are arguing for is in-line with the Tiering Policy Framework. If what you're arguing for isn't, there's a very high chance that your post will be deleted.
  • No uninformed one liners or posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspect tests;
  • No discussion on the suspect test process.
  • Your posts are expected to be respectful, please do not insult anyone.
  • Failing to follow these rules, may result in an infraction.
If there are any questions, feel free to PM Avery. If there are any questions about the moderation of this thread, you should feel free to PM the moderation team.

Tagging Kris and Marty to implement this on ladder
 
Last edited by a moderator:
20210326_152629.jpg

Hey guys, I am going to explain why I don't think that Dragapult is broken and why it should be unbanned.
My main focus is going to be the Dragon Dance + Ghostium Z set here.

•Dragapult is an extremely fast Pokemon with a Speed base of 142, it has an decent Attack stat with a base of 120, has the best physical Dragon move with Dragon Darts and a very solid typing with Dragon and Ghost. But Dragapult has also a few issues, which I am going to explain.

• Dragapult has enough checks and counters, like Melmetal, Mega Scizor, Unaware Clefable, (Mega) Tyranitar, Mandibuzz, Weavile and Bisharp as examples. The most of it's answers are very common and viable Pokemon which are in almost every team even without Dragapult. Here are a few calcs I made:

+1 252 Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 297-349 (62.9 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- approx. 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 237-280 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


• Dragapult is a Pokemon that needs some support by it's teammates and it needs a good player who knows when to use the Z move to do it's job well (unlike Dracovish, it just clicked one button and killed almost everything with Fishious Rend). It's not that bulky with 88/75/75, has no Recovery and gets easily pressured by priority moves like Mega Scizors Bullet Punch and Mega Lopunnys Fake Out. It almost never gets a Substitute and Dragon Dance together, and even if it does, you can still outplay it with a Normal + Fairy type Pokemon like Clefable and Blissey or Mega Lopunny and Tapu Fini. Once it burned it's Z move, it can't really do anything against against a Normal + Fairy type Mon, because it's only Ghost move is Phantom Force, which needs two turns to make damage.

I hope I explained good enough why I want Dragapult to get unbanned.
Thanks for reading and good luck with getting reqs :)
 
View attachment 408123
Hey guys, I am going to explain why I don't think that Dragapult is broken and why it should be unbanned.
My main focus is going to be the Dragon Dance + Ghostium Z set here.

•Dragapult is an extremely fast Pokemon with a Speed base of 142, it has an decent Attack stat with a base of 120, has the best physical Dragon move with Dragon Darts and a very solid typing with Dragon and Ghost. But Dragapult has also a few issues, which I am going to explain.

• Dragapult has enough checks and counters, like Melmetal, Mega Scizor, Unaware Clefable, (Mega) Tyranitar, Mandibuzz, Weavile and Bisharp as examples. The most of it's answers are very common and viable Pokemon which are in almost every team even without Dragapult. Here are a few calcs I made:

+1 252 Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 297-349 (62.9 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- approx. 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 237-280 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


• Dragapult is a Pokemon that needs some support by it's teammates and it needs a good player who knows when to use the Z move to do it's job well (unlike Dracovish, it just clicked one button and killed almost everything with Fishious Rend). It's not that bulky with 88/75/75, has no Recovery and gets easily pressured by priority moves like Mega Scizors Bullet Punch and Mega Lopunnys Fake Out. It almost never gets a Substitute and Dragon Dance together, and even if it does, you can still outplay it with a Normal + Fairy type Pokemon like Clefable and Blissey or Mega Lopunny and Tapu Fini. Once it burned it's Z move, it can't really do anything against against a Normal + Fairy type Mon, because it's only Ghost move is Phantom Force, which needs two turns to make damage.

I hope I explained good enough why I want Dragapult to get unbanned.
Thanks for reading and good luck with getting reqs :)

While this does somewhat cover DD Pult, you completely failed to cover other sets like WispHex and Choice Specs. That being said, let's assess the "checks" you've listed so far (TL;DR: each check listed is either super easy to wear down, and/or gets destroyed by Z/other Pult sets):

:melmetal:
While this is an alright answer if the Z is expended, it's super vulnerable to chip damage from stuff like Spikes. Also, Standard Melm is 252 Atk/192 SpD/64 Spe, so it needs very minimal chip to be KOed by Z-Phantom Force. Other Pult sets just ruin it, as WispHex cripples it and Specs can brute force it with repeated Shadow Balls or just fire coverage.

:scizor-mega:
+1 Z-Phantom has a high chance to kill standard Sciz after rocks, meaning you have to run mediocre Phys. Def Curse sets just for a chance to beat it and that's with hoping hazard stacking isn't there to wear you down. Then of course there's the similar issues as Melm with other Pult sets.

:Mandibuzz:
Ik why this was listed, but outside of a mediocre Pult and Hydreigon check that's easy to overwhelm, it's garbage af because it can't Defog on anything, has 4MSS, etc. Overall a waste of a teamslot.

:Tyranitar: / :Tyranitar-mega:
Both Ttar forms can answer DD Pult alright, since they resist Z-Phantom and have the bulk for +1 Dragon Darts, but they have the same issue of being easy to wear down (whether with Spikes or U-turn from special Pult sets) for Pult or its other teammates to take advantage of.

:Weavile:
Can't switchin to any set barring Specs locked into SBall and is kinda shaky as a Pult RKer.
Plus, since DD Pult often runs Substitute, it can Sub if Vile tries to come in on DD and remove it with unboosted Darts if it's a taken even a small amount of prior damage (like SR).

:Bisharp:
No one really runs Bisharp outside of Webs HO nowadays, and it has pretty much the same issues as everything else I've discussed from your list so far.

:Clefable:
Magic Guard dies to +1 Z-Phantom, and Unaware (which only sees play on stall and fat balance) needs to be fully healthy and reliant on low rolls to take Phantom into Z. WispHex and Specs also easily overwhelm standard Clef.

Are you noticing a recurring issue here? You pretty much need at least 2 DD Pult checks to keep it from just clicking Z and wiping out most, if not all, of your team out WHILE ALSO being able to handle other Pult sets that tend to require somewhat different checks. Hell, I haven't even talked about how screens fix DD Pult's bulk issue and makes revenging it even more difficult.
 
while laddering i saw dragapult after a dd whiped out entier teams(i was admant)
only check is like unaware clef and wigglytuff
mawile-mega and sucker punch can kill but my dragapult had sub
intimidate can cripple dragapult if it does not have clear body
I will be voting Ban Dragapult(this is my first suspect btw mind me if i do anything wrong)
 

Miyoko

Nature lover
is an official Team Rateris a Tiering Contributor
I saw thousands of dragapult while laddering. Dragapult is a strong Pokemon and especially it's fast (fast enough to kill everything). A 355 speed, High atk and enough HP dragapult can even set up Dragon dance on knock off landorus freely. And substitute dragon dance is anti mawile set. Dragapult can outplay an entire team and ofc dd combined with lele terrain is super strong. Also specs isn't much famous here but it's still good. And z-phantom force is always a good move and also Weakness Policy exists, dd with HP and activate WP and sub up then kill everything. So it's pretty strong mixed mon
So i am voting to ban dragapult (This is my first suspect so there are chances of making mistake)
 

R8

Leads Natdex Other Tiers, not rly doing ndou stuff
is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Top Contributor Alumnus
National Dex Leader
Unaware (which only sees play on stall and fat balance) needs to be fully healthy and reliant on low rolls to take Phantom into Z. WispHex and Specs also easily overwhelm standard Clef.
I don't have a clear opinion on Dragapult yet, but i wanted to do a small correction here: there is no rolls involved with a properly played + supported unaware clef. DD z Dragapult can usually hit Clefable exclusively with Phantom Force or its Z move. Due to the way Phantom Force works, you can just react to it by clicking soft boiled again, so you are out of range of the Z move no matter what happen. There can be a tricky scenario where clef is forced to repeatedly click soft boiled if pult spams Phantom Force, but this is covered if you give Clefable Helmet or if you pair it with something able to absorb Phantom Force (Usually Chansey, Pex or Alomomola). However, unaware Clefable can't switch into every set, so proper scouting is required.

However it must be mentioned that bulky playstyles can be punished by infestation Dragapult when they attempt to scout the set - though Chansey should be able to survive long enough to stall out infestation.
 
I'm voting stay banned, it gets too many free opportunities to set up given its good defensive typing and its solid bulk, after a dragon dance its very hard to deal with, and all of its counters can get chipped into range, its dark type checks like mandibuzz and tyranitar aren't reliable, while its other checks like clefable and melmetal have their own set of issues.
Mandibuzz can get lured by a partner using knock off, like rillaboom or kartana, while tyranitar often doesn't run lefties and as a result can get worn down by hazards or other pokemon its supposed to check
Other checks like melmetal and clefable have their own set of weakness, melmetal will die to a +1 never-ending-nightmare if it gets hit by dragon darts the first time it switches in, and clefable is forced to run unware and as a result can get overwhelmed by passive damage, and never-ending nightmare still does a minimum of 72% to a physically defensive one
 
Sub DD Ghost z pult vs every sample team:

Ddance on pelipper or sub on ferro(literally nothing ferro can do), outspeed mega swampert, completely destroy rain.
Calc wall:
+1 252+ Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swampert-Mega: 408-481 (119.6 - 141%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 290-344 (77.7 - 92.2%) -- approx. 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 174 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 444-523 (115.6 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 174 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 254-302 (66.1 - 78.6%) -- approx. 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 354-416 (124.2 - 145.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Pelipper Pursuit (40 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragapult: 38-46 (11.9 - 14.5%) -- possible 7HKO
Only setup oppurtunity is against heatran by subbing on the z and taking earth power. After that, the opponent can still switch to tangrowth on the z and then to mmaw to beat it.
Setup on rotom, free kill. You can't kill both clef and sciz though
+1 252 Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Scizor-Mega: 303-357 (104.4 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 196 Def Clefable: 414-487 (105.3 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Clef takes 90% from +2 ghost min, so you need to get it to 84% to guarantee the kill. Also weavile moment :( Ferro breaks sub with power whip 69% of the time with power whips (accuracy included) so you can gamble if you have health to spare.
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragapult: 77-91 (24.2 - 28.7%) -- 99.1% chance to 4HKO
+1 252 Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 355-418 (90.1 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
You can setup on tapu fini, landorus, and heatran but that's a lot of damage you're taking. Or perhaps on a focus blast locked lele. Then you just have to hope they dont mlop on the z with substitute mind games.
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragapult: 164-194 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Take the hydregion team, but with weavile, and way worse setup opportunity.(i got lazy)
Edit:wherever I said +2 I meant +1
 
Last edited:
https://pokepast.es/27ef9ba709b37d13 built this and got reqs, team is absolutely nuts.

The thread seems pretty dead so I'm gonna try to spark some discussion. I also urge you to play for reqs or just some ladder games before forming an opinion. This suspect test isn't as cut and dry as Tornadus-T :tornadus-therian: in my opinion.

:ss/dragapult:

What Dragapult sets have you enjoyed the most success with? What sets do you believe are overrated or underrated?

Are there any Pult cores or partners that you've found are particularly effective? Maybe even too effective?

What offensive counterplay is there to Dragapult? Do you believe the speed tier + ability to run sub + defensive typing make it too difficult to out-offense and/or too difficult to revenge kill? How do you deal with a Dragapult at +1, especially if it's behind a Sub?

What defensive counterplay is there to Dragapult? Are there enough consistent switch ins to Sub DD? Do these checks/counters also answer other sets like Specs and Wisp Hex, or just Sub DD? Do you need at least 2 defensive checks to Dragapult on a team?

And finally, what do you think you'll be voting?


free mega chicken btw :blaziken-mega:
 
I think it should be unbanned, here's my reasoning:
  • Sucker Punch MMaw and Bisharp OHKOs Pult
  • Weavile can switch into specs shadow ball and knock it out with knock off
  • Physical Def. Melm can come in after it's teammate got koed and take evan a +1 Ghost Z
  • Pursuit Trapping from Mega TTar and CB Weavile
  • Unaware Clef with max def can switch into Ghost Z followed by Phantom force and because on the Phantom force turn, clef can soft boiled then just spam moonblast
  • Finally, repeated Mega Scizor Bullet Punches will knock out pult
I hope this is good enough reasoning for why Pult isn't broken and should be unbanned
 
Last edited:
Okay, adding my opinion to the thread, specifically responding to people.
Disclaimer - I don’t have any strong opinions about Pult, just correcting some things that some people said.

Sucker Punch MMaw and Bisharp OHKOs Pult
Bisharp isn’t very common and Sub is pretty standard on Pult.

Weavile can switch into specs and knock it out with knock off
Weavile doesn’t really appreciate Draco Meteor, plus DD Z Pult is the biggest threat here. On top of that, Wisp+Hex Pult beats Weavile anyways.

Physical Def. Melm can come in after it's teammate got koed and take evan a +1 Ghost Z
Still a trade in the Pult player’s favor, also Melm has to be kept at full.

clefable is forced to run unware and as a result can get overwhelmed by passive damage, and never-ending nightmare still does a minimum of 72% to a physically defensive one
Gonna echo R8 here with saying that Unaclef is a pretty good check to DD Pult because of how Phantom Force works. A good player can get Pult to burn the Z and Unaclef stonewalls it from there. Even with this, it’s not exactly healthy for this to be one of the only checks.

free mega chicken btw :blaziken-mega:
no lol



K, now to answering questions.

What Dragapult sets have you enjoyed the most success with? What sets do you believe are overrated or underrated?
I think that all of Pult’s sets have their place, but WispHex is definitely my favorite, while SubDD is the best set, hands down. Specs is still valid too ngl.

Are there any Pult cores or partners that you've found are particularly effective? Maybe even too effective?
Screens for DD Pult is free setup, and WispHex and Specs enjoy fighting types to help them. Otherwise Lele and Whirlpool Fini are pretty good teammates overall.

What offensive counterplay is there to Dragapult? Do you believe the speed tier + ability to run sub + defensive typing make it too difficult to out-offense and/or too difficult to revenge kill? How do you deal with a Dragapult at +1, especially if it's behind a Sub?
Best I can do is Sucker Punch/Scarf. If it has a sub and +1 Speed its almost impossible to offensively counterplay. Best way of dealing with a Pult at +1 behind a sub is Clef/Mandi/Melm which can eat a Z and kill it.

Aight I think that’s everything. Once again, good luck and happy laddering!
 
Last edited:

Kyo

In Limbo
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
National Dex Leader
Time to talk about Dragapult. I like making discussion posts, but I think it's especially important to get my thoughts out there now that I'm on the OU council and I hope other council members will do the same. My first experience with Pult was also the first time I played NatDex when I signed up for a seasonal on a whim. Avery completely destroyed me with the DD Ghostium set because I was using SM teams and didn't exactly realize what this mon does when it has access to Z moves. Chalk that up to my teams not actually being prepared for the NatDex meta but here we are again dealing with Pult in a NatDex meta that has progressed significantly with some major threats now banned and some newly realized threats getting usage.

However, I am still in favor of keeping Pult banned. No matter how I look at this mon, the biggest issue I find with Pult is the lack of consistent answers across the board. It is exceptionally hard to check Dragapult when you consider all of the viable sets because, almost without fail, what you use to beat one set will fall prey to another. The result that I am worried this will have on teambuilding is forcing the use of multiple different checks and generally being too high a constraint on teambuilding.

In the interest of complete disclosure, this was how I felt about Blaziken too and I was wrong. Blaziken is not all that it was made out to be and certainly hasn't warped the metagame around it. There are a number of factors that I think differentiate Pult from Blaziken however. In terms of counterplay, they are similar in that their different sets usually require different counters. Pult on the other hand offers far more initial value to teams than Blaziken. Unlike the chicken, Pult is more immediately threatening when it hits the field. It doesn't always require a turn of setup to force something out. Blaziken's coverage moves don't hit for much until after a swords dance, but Pult mostly uses STAB which gets a 1.5x boost instantly and it outspeeds the whole tier bar Zeraora making it a pseudo revenge killer even when it's set up to be more of a sweeper. The next most important difference is that Blaziken always takes the Z move slot on a team which is a significant opportunity cost to use it. It is unable to pick its counters without the damage boost from Z options like Electrium Z, Normalium Z, Firium Z, etc. that effectively remove 1 or 2 of its potential counters. In terms of viability, it is C rank with Z move lures and basically unviable without them. I've yet to see Blaziken be effective in any other role despite some experimenting with choice items. Dragapult only uses one set with a Z move, the infamous DD Ghostium set that I'm pretty sure everyone and their grandmother has used at this point. It is far more splashable than any set Blaziken uses because it takes advantage of amazing STAB coverage to simply overwhelm defensive mons with raw power. No guessing games hoping for the right Z move matchup, just one set with hella damage output. Basically if you want to use your Z move slot on Dragapult, you absolutely can but you're not obligated to. Dragapult is viable with not only Z moves but also all 3 choice items and heavy duty boots, to say nothing of sub lefties builds that are definitely underexplored right now.

Getting back to the main point of this post, lets look at counterplay and why Pult is a nightmare to deal with in the builder.

:sm/tyranitar-mega:

I'll start out with something positive and highlight Mega Tyranitar as one of the best and only blanket counters to various Dragapult sets. Mtar has such immense bulk that it shrugs off choice boosted or +1 hits fairly easily. Thanks to pursuit, it generally only has to switch into Pult once rather than getting chipped down over the course of a game. However, Pult's access to u-turn means that Mtar can get chipped if enough predictions are made by the opponent and it also still gets 2hko'd by Banded sets after stealth rocks damage. Not exactly a hard counter but it's close.

:sm/weavile:
Here's a mon that just recently moved up to S- rank and it absolutely deserves it. I'm not here to praise Weavile though, so how does it do against Dragapult? Weavile definitely isn't a counter, but it has some value as a check. Banded ice shard can revenge DD Pult after just a little chip which isn't hard to get on the initial turn of setup. Weavile also puts some limitations on specs Pult which wants to spam shadow ball but can't do so out of fear of pursuit. The main issue here is that you just can't get Weavile onto the field without sacking first. Even specs Pult is still free to click fire coverage or u-turn throughout the entire game and hex or banded Pult don't get pursuit trapped by this at all.

:sm/blissey: :sm/chansey:
Fat pink blobs, we know them well. Chansey is generally the better of the two here because of higher physical bulk, but both provide some amount of Pult counterplay. Both are very hard answers to hex and specs Pult as they eat up special attacks, don't care much about unboosted dragon darts, and heal themselves of status for free. Their glaring weakness is that banded Pult can muscle through and sub DD turns them into setup fodder. They're also passive and lose a ton of momentum when u-turn'd on by specs or hex sets. Once again we have a mon that only beats about half of what Pult has to offer and if you're starting to see a pattern here, you're catching on.

:sm/toxapex:
Here's another one of the better blanket counters. Toxapex is so bulky that it doesn't necessarily need to resist attacks to switch into them. +1 Z Ghost fails to KO, specs fails to 2hko, and non-specs hex needs to rely on lucky paralysis to break through. Sub sets can potentially use Pex as setup fodder, but it at least has knock off as an option to deal with this. The main problem is that Pex survives all these attacks by very thin margins. A simple 12% from hazards can turn 3hkos into 2hkos and Pex can only throw out toxic or a weak knock off in response. Also, banded Pult straight up 2hkos all but the most physically defensive spreads which is crazy. Despite coverage issues, I think that set is a massive threat when paired with magpull support.

:sm/clefable:
Clef seems to be widely considered one of the best Pult answers and I'm just not sure that's true. While Clef (or most fairy types) are excellent vs banded Pult, this mon loses surprisingly easily vs all the other sets. +1 Z Ghost OHKOs phys def Clefable which forces you to use unaware and opt out of the massive value magic guard offers. Even though you're putting a bandaid on the DD matchup, you become so much more susceptible to chip damage that there's potential to still lose to DD eventually in a longer game. Vs specs, Clef is just barely saved from a 2hko by leftovers. You have to keep Clef completely healthy and you can no longer safely use it as a knock off switch in. Both magic guard and unaware also roll a 20% chance to get sp def dropped every time they switch in. Magic guard will save you from chip damage but won't save you from being 2hko'd by any hex set, specs or not, once you get hit with status. I really don't think Clef is as good vs Pult as it's made out to be. Not gonna do a whole writeup on Tapu Fini but it functions similar to Clef, trading crucial longevity for a better matchup against the hex pivot set.

:sm/mandibuzz:
I wish you all the best if you're building with this mon thinking you'll be safe against Pult. Where do I even start? Mandibuzz is barely viable in the meta as a whole, let alone as a Pult counter. In exchange for using a suboptimal mon and dark type that can't pursuit trap or switch into knock off, you get a hard answer to DD Pult and a decent answer to hex pivot sets if you're ok with being crippled by status. Specs will still 2hko with draco meteor and banded will 2hko with darts after any amount of chip damage. I can't recommend it.

:sm/melmetal:
This is an interesting one. Melm has great physical bulk that can tank +1 Z Ghost and even KO Pult through sub with double iron bash. AV Melm switches fairly well into specially offensive Pult too, although specs fire blast can 2hko. Any Melm set is going to be chunked by fire coverage, but not all Pult run fire moves so it's decent. Main issues here is susceptibility to chip damage. Melm can really only sustain itself by receiving a wish and sp def lefties sets don't get the bulk boost from AV. You often have to take damage from iron barbs or helmet if you want to go on the offensive with Melm, plus the possibility of status from contact abilities. Protective pads helps but then you don't get lefties recovery or AV so there's a tradeoff.

This is not an exhaustive list of all the counterplay to Pult, but I think I touched on the most important aspects. Moreover, I hope it helps you understand why I feel Pult is not healthy for the current NatDex meta and probably never will be. It is nearly impossible to be safe vs Dragapult without incorporating multiple forms of counterplay into your teams that can overlap and deal with different sets. And don't get me wrong, you can make that work without ruining the viability of a team overall. In my own suspect run, I used unaware Clef + sp def Gastro to deal with Pult. Countering all the viable sets is doable, but it puts an immense strain on teambuilding that I just don't find healthy. For those reasons, I will be voting do not unban on Dragapult.
 
Last edited:
Another thing I feel like isnt being highlighted nearly enough is just how crazy fast pult is, a because of that, how difficult it is to apply pressure to the opposing team once you get a free switchin vs it.
Due to the nature of the tier, a bunch of mons in natdex are bound to have no counters at all depending on the set. I dont necessarily see this quality as a good reason to ban a pokemon in natdex, since we have stuff like z Heatran, Kyurem, Hoopa-U and Blaziken, all of which are nigh uncounterable, and some of which are not even that good.
However, all of those allow strong counterplay if the opponent manages to get a variety of mons in in front of them, such as Lopunny, Medicham, or any strong and faster than average breaker which we have no shortage of.
With Dragapult however, this is not the case.
Being one of the faster mons in the tier, the pressure that can be put on it on the switch is very limited.
Even Weavile, that is being mentioned a lot in this thread, fails to ohko with ice shard and in turn a jolly dragapult kills back after a single round of rocks with an unboosted dragon darts.
With that being said, due to the scarcity of defensive counterplay, and perhaps even more lacking offensive counterplay, I think Dragapult should stay banned.
 
Last edited:
Dragapult, oh boy here we go. So first off, this thing is excellent in ND OU, as if SS OU was any implication, but now that pult has access to z-moves it truly is an outstanding force in OU, but personally I don't really think that its ban worthy. There are already plenty of hard calcs on this thread so I'll spare you the maths, but the current nat dex meta has plenty of reliable answers to it. Weavile, toxapex, etc. and the fact that cinderace isn't around to partner with it makes it more manageable as well. Ironically even something like +2 jolly, shadow claw blaziken a can put a lot of pressure on it after a speed boost and even at +1 spd and atk, pult can still be checked by tanks like def pex or unaware clef, although pult can end games if it snowballs enough it isn't too difficult currently to stop it before it insta-wins a game. I'm definitely down to be convinced that its ban worthy though and assuming I can get the reqs for this one, I'll most likely be voting to UNBAN dragapult, unless I am convinced otherwise.
 
Ironically even something like +2 jolly, shadow claw blaziken a can put a lot of pressure on it after a speed boost
:dragapult: vs :blaziken:

Blaziken don't really runs shadow claw as it really only hits pult, and just makes it's 4MSS even worse and unable to wallbreak reliably, let alone effectively. Knock off would have been a better arguement but it's not much better. There's also the fact that once the pult sets up how are you gonna set up yourself? the pult could make the chicken be a dartboard easily.
You will need two speed boosts to outspeed the pult, which you definitely can't acquire safely and unless you have protect, which also doesn't help it break open defensive hole in any way. oh and also side note blaziken needs to be at +3 to outspeed +1 pult
here's some possibility in blaziken switching in right after pult came in
A: Pult dds on the switch, dragon darts OHKO
Ending: Pult sits at +1 with both stats while you just sacked a blaziken

B: Pult subs, Pult dds, blaziken break the sub, and pult kos anyways
Ending: Pult lost 25% of it's health, sitting at +1 in attack and speed while the chicken being dead is still unchanged

C: Pult dds on the switch, blaziken protects 3 times in a row against incoming waves of suicide dreepy, which is quite incosistent, oh and unboosted knock off doens't kill so don't even think about it, same for shadow claw if there's no rocks.
Ending i (if it pulled that off): Same as Ending A but pult is usually on low health or rarely being dead if rocks are up, and in that case the chicken is at + 4 speed boost but those boosts can't help it defeat walls. Try for a more consistent strategy.
Ending ii(if it didn't pulled that off): same as Ending A


D: Pult use darts on the switch, you get the protect off once(65535/65536), knock off/shadow claw then dies anyway.
Ending i(if it pulled that off): same as ending C but the shadow claw ko chances after stealth rock are at 12.5% or 1/8. Also way too incosistent
Ending ii(if it didn't pulled that off, 1/65536): same as ending A but it's very unlikely for that to happen so just ignore this


also note that in ending C and ending d you are quite literally throwing away 2 valuable move slots
Calcs used

+1 252 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken: 308-366 (102.3 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 239-283 (75.3 - 89.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 221-263 (69.7 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And if the blaziken is already set up the pult won't even think of switching in, instead it's a wall that switches in, so yea no chances shadow claw is a bad idea. I will add in more possibilities for ending C later as after i finished it i realised that the pulling off 3 protect possibilites i used are only counting the third turn and my head hurts. Also why am i writing such a long counter arguement for literally less than 1/4 of a sentence?
 
After playing against and with pult and using all of pult's different variety of sets, I realized a glaring weakness, so I decided to add it in myself.
The power of pult's Ghostium- Z set is already pressuring but the unpredictability of its other completely viable sets sadly puts it over the edge. Now, this wouldn't have been much of a problem, but all of its different sets needs different checks which puts a big pressure on teambuilding, forcing people to run 2-3 mons to check just one. To show what I mean, I am gonna take the checks of one set and compare how it does versus another.
:ss/dragapult:
Dragapult @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Darts
- Substitute
- Phantom Force
- Dragon Dance
:clefable: Clefable, first of all, needs to unaware already losing a lot of its utility, loses to wisp + hex, barely survives specs shadow ball meaning just a bit of chip for it to fall. ( Not to mention2HKO if it gets spdef drop).
:tyranitar: :tyranitar-mega: Again chipping down is easy as it has no reliable recovery, doesn't exactly lose to wisp hex but rendered pretty much useless if burned, specs set can chunk it with u-turn over the course of a game until in range of 2 draco meteors.
:melmetal: The same thing, no reliable recovery just a bit of chip needed to break down, loses to wisp hex, loses to specs if not AV, even then the dragapult user can shadow ball, then swap, then its a 2HKO with flamethrower/fire blast.
:weavile: It can't swap in, susceptible to entry hazards, can't even KO with ice shard if pult is at full, and I can go on and on but the main point here is u can't call it a check.
:mandibuzz: Seriously, why should we use this??? First of all its niche in the meta, sure, maybe it acts as a mid-ground blanket check to all of pult's sets but why should we use a niche mon (not even in VR), that cannot even be called a reliable check if I'm being honest.
:ss/dragapult:
Dragapult @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Draco Meteor
- U-turn
- Flamethrower
:blissey: :chansey: Set-up fodder for Dd.
:tyranitar: :tyranitar-mega: Gets chunked by u-turn, has no reliable recovery, and has issues with wisp + hex.
spdef :clefable: If u run spdef u lose to dd, if not u lose to specs/ wisp + hex
:mandibuzz: Don't use this, even max spdef (which, first of all, nobody's running) dies to 2 draco meteors after rocks (which shouldn't be hard considering it has a tendency to swap into knock off) , if physically def is guarantee 2HKO, if mixed def still dies.
:ss/dragapult:
Dragapult @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- U-turn
- Hex
- Draco Meteor
:blissey: :chansey: Same thing written above
spdef :clefable: Same thing written above
(call me lazy for not including some other mons but in short they lose to one set or other)

So, if u didn't realize already, the thing has no real defensive check, very few counterplay if at all and the most important thing being unpredictability of its sets. I think its safe to say that this thing should be kept banned.
 
Last edited:
Ok, so Dragapult. Just to be clear, this is the set I'll be focusing on:
Dragapult @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Darts
- Phantom Force
- Substitute
Now, the most common counterargument against why it shouldn't be banned first time round was "if you predict the Z and pivot, Dragapult does nothing to Fairy-types". What I wanted to discuss here is with the safety net of Substitute, these pivoting games are very much in the favour of the Dragapult player (not to mention Infestation sets which shut them down entirely, but those risk being crippled by status).

So the scenario is: You guess Pult's set correctly, and switch to your Fairy answer on the Sub, then break it as it DDs. Now, this appears to be a straight 50/50 between switch to avoid Z, or attack to try and KO it. But Substitute acts as a midground for the Pult player you don't have access to. If the Pult Subs on an attack, then it has only lost a small amount of health. Should it succeed in Subbing on a Z-bait pivot out however, you can basically just click X there and then. Pult then has a variety of lovely options, ranging from acquiring extra DD boosts, clicking Darts to see if you stay in with minimal risk, clicking Phantom Force to make you switch around more, chipping your mons, or firing the Z on any predicted attempt to break its Sub.

We honestly don't even need to consider the other sets lmao, but Specs, Boots, Spell Tag, Electrium and Mixed DD are all proven, viable sets that have different counterplay to the above listed set. Ban this bad boy.
 
Not trying to be nitpicky here but the substitute dragon dance sets on both of the posts above are using adamant, while not outright unviable, should be noted that it's slower than mega lopunny, ash greninja and tapu koko while speed tying with weavile without any of those mons' speed changed by paralysis or other forms of conditional speed control, making it an exploitable advantage if the opponent had calc everything on the damage calculator and learnt that the dragapult is adamant nature. That said you can still use dd pult with adamant nature, just something worth remembering in case you are using/acknowledged you are facing one.
 

Kinzo

formerly Kinzo Ketchum
So its about pult now i can assure to keep it banned it has very few counters and checks (wigglytuff noises lmao) but yea no one's using a wigglytuff weavile has to be a standard in every team which will make it kinda like yveltal in ubers and lop gets bodied by sub it easily sweeps. So yea if it gets unbanned the meta is going to get demolished
I can say more but i am lazy
 
Not trying to be nitpicky here but the substitute dragon dance sets on both of the posts above are using adamant, while not outright unviable, should be noted that it's slower than mega lopunny, ash greninja and tapu koko while speed tying with weavile without any of those mons' speed changed by paralysis or other forms of conditional speed control, making it an exploitable advantage if the opponent had calc everything on the damage calculator and learnt that the dragapult is adamant nature. That said you can still use dd pult with adamant nature, just something worth remembering in case you are using/acknowledged you are facing one.
That's because it is boosting its speed with Dragon Dance. Unless the opponent is running Scarf Tapu Koko this isn't really relevant in most situations, especially since Pult often has Substitute, and those four are not mons you should be attempting to setup on. If you want to deal with these above mons, run the WispHexBoots/Spell Tag pivot set, which is usually Timid for this reason. DD Dragapult is a sweeper/cleaner first, it just happens to be so naturally fast that it can act as a mild speed control measure on top of that. Adamant Nature comes with a big damage output increase that Pult with its middling 120 base ATK cannot ignore.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top