Announcement National Dex Suspect Test 14: ghost girl

[TheCounterTeamer]

Replies 2 electric boogaloo

Weavile

Calling Weavile a reliable check is a pretty big stretch here, as with a sub it gets memed on by Dragon Darts, hates Will-o from Hex sets, and gets U-Turned on by Specs. Not really that reliable.

Ironically even something like +2 jolly, shadow claw blaziken

Shadow Claw Blaziken pretty bad ngl, plus that’s a really specified offensive check that 1. Cannot beat Pult if it has a sub (see a theme here?) and 2. Is pretty niche/outclassed anyways.

We honestly don't even need to consider the other sets lmao

The other sets are what makes it 100% broken, in my opinion, as the few things that can beat Sub DD pretty much hard lose to WispHex or Specs, making it unbalanced imo

Leaving opinion on this one, I’ve decided that Pult is too much, and that it should remain banned.

 

[Hykalia]

After having played with pult a bit more I can confidently reply to your comment with a VERY strong, "this thing absolutely needs to be banned." Like seriously, its not just its z-dd set that makes it broken as hell, its the unpredictability that REALLY pushes it beyond the point of no return.

 

[iMainDK]

After finally getting reqs and further playing on my main account, I am going to be voting unban Dragapult. After the probably 75 battles I have done so far, dragapult while threatening and has a very dangerous set definitely has counterplay. Hazards are one of dragapults biggest enemies and once any defogger is dead on your team, dragapult becomes severely weakened overtime. The biggest counters Ive seen so far are defensive lando with knock off or earthquake as it cannot be killed by ghostium z and unaware clefable which completely walls out the sub d dance set. On top of that, many other mons in the meta such as rillaboom, regular and mega scizor, weavile, and mega lopunny, none of which are niche in the meta, can all deal with dragapult pretty well with their priority moves. Also it is worth noting that tyranitar as well is a very good check to dragapult as as I had figured out, it takes an entire Ghostium Z Crit + Dragon Darts to finish off a mega Tyranitar without any defensive investment. Once Ghostium Z is burned off, mons like knock off ferrothorn and fairy normal type cores such as blissey clefable or any tapu, dragapult becomes extremely worse. Also it is also worth noting that many mons that use choice scarf such as lele, kartana, landorus, and latios handle dragapult pretty well and most of the time ohko outside of landorus without knock off. Another major threat is melmetal whos incredible stats really dont have to worry much outside of its will o wisp hex set which is a lot less dangerous than the sub d dance set. For all of these reasons, I believe Dragapult should be fine in the meta and I will be voting to Unban.

 

[yogo896]

Hazards are one of dragapults biggest enemies and once any defogger is dead on your team, dragapult becomes severely weakened overtime.

What u are saying is pretty much true for all wallbreakers(not running HDB) and dragapult even does run HDB on its wisp + hex set. I don't think that should be a reason to unban a mon.

The biggest counters Ive seen so far are defensive lando with knock off or earthquake as it cannot be killed by ghostium z and unaware clefable which completely walls out the sub d dance set.

Even max defense lando dies to +1 Never-ending nightmare after rocks since pult runs clear body on its Dd set to nullify intimidate.

On top of that, many other mons in the meta such as rillaboom, regular and mega scizor, weavile, and mega lopunny, none of which are niche in the meta, can all deal with dragapult pretty well with their priority moves.

None of these mons can safely switchin on pult which means if u want to revenge kill it, u have to sack one of your own first. In that case, the pult user can swap out and preserve pult for another assault later. Also, note that the priority moves of all the mons mentioned above fails to kill pult from full.

Calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 236-278 (74.4 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO , the closest u can get is this.
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 87-103 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult in Grassy Terrain: 150-177 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 153-180 (48.2 - 56.7%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO

Another major threat is melmetal whos incredible stats really dont have to worry much outside of its will o wisp hex set which is a lot less dangerous than the sub d dance set.

I think u are underestimating dragapult here, calling one set "dangerous" than other. Even wisp + hex sets can sweep teams if setup correctly. Also melm loses to specs. I have written how the checks of one set does vs another here.

 

[Deno_nemesis]

After playing against and with pult and using all of pult's different variety of sets, I realized a glaring weakness, so I decided to add it in myself.
The power of pult's Ghostium- Z set is already pressuring but the unpredictability of its other completely viable sets sadly puts it over the edge. Now, this wouldn't have been much of a problem, but all of its different sets needs different checks which puts a big pressure on teambuilding, forcing people to run 2-3 mons to check just one. To show what I mean, I am gonna take the checks of one set and compare how it does versus another.

Dragapult @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Darts
- Substitute
- Phantom Force
- Dragon Dance
Clefable, first of all, needs to unaware already losing a lot of its utility, loses to wisp + hex, barely survives specs shadow ball meaning just a bit of chip for it to fall. ( Not to mention2HKO if it gets spdef drop).
Again chipping down is easy as it has no reliable recovery, doesn't exactly lose to wisp hex but rendered pretty much useless if burned, specs set can chunk it with u-turn over the course of a game until in range of 2 draco meteors.
The same thing, no reliable recovery just a bit of chip needed to break down, loses to wisp hex, loses to specs if not AV, even then the dragapult user can shadow ball, then swap, then its a 2HKO with flamethrower/fire blast.
It can't swap in, susceptible to entry hazards, can't even KO with ice shard if pult is at full, and I can go on and on but the main point here is u can't call it a check.
Seriously, why should we use this??? First of all its niche in the meta, sure, maybe it acts as a mid-ground blanket check to all of pult's sets but why should we use a niche mon (not even in VR), that cannot even be called a reliable check if I'm being honest.

Dragapult @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Draco Meteor
- U-turn
- Flamethrower
Set-up fodder for Dd.
Gets chunked by u-turn, has no reliable recovery, and has issues with wisp + hex.
spdef If u run spdef u lose to dd, if not u lose to specs/ wisp + hex
Don't use this, even max spdef (which, first of all, nobody's running) dies to 2 draco meteors after rocks (which shouldn't be hard considering it has a tendency to swap into knock off) , if physically def is guarantee 2HKO, if mixed def still dies.

Dragapult @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- U-turn
- Hex
- Draco Meteor
Same thing written above
spdef Same thing written above
(call me lazy for not including some other mons but in short they lose to one set or other)

So, if u didn't realize already, the thing has no real defensive check, very few counterplay if at all and the most important thing being unpredictability of its sets. I think its safe to say that this thing should be kept banned.

So I noticed that you said that Clefable loses to Wisp/Hex but I ran the calcs and beg to differ. I took your original Hex Set and plugged it into the damage calculator. Against Clefable OU Utility set with Magic Guard, it's most common ability. Fable is not at all scared by Wisp/Hex

Here's what I got for Dragapult.

Will-O-Wisp 0 - 0%

Hex 21.3 - 25.1%

U-turn 6.8 - 8.1%

Draco Meteor 0 - 0%

I'm sorry but this is not scary towards fable even on switch in. Fable has to have a status effect first, so that means I can switch in and get burned while avoiding chip damage thanks to Magic Guard. You use Hex and the highest you will get is 25%. That is not bad at all. I stay in as Fable and use Moonblast, and Pult suffers around 78.2 - 92.7% using your set. With 252 HP for Pult, MB does 65-77%, more than half while you barely scratch fable. (Also Fable has Knock Off to sit there and take away your boots) You may think, okay I'll just U turn or Switch in to someone else. That allows me to Soft Boiled negating your damage, knock off the item of your switch in which is always a plus or Stealth Rock. I just don't really see how that's too scary? It really shouldn't bother me none to just play against that. I would like to hear your response. Thank You~

 

[Nish the Great]

So I noticed that you said that Clefable loses to Wisp/Hex but I ran the calcs and beg to differ. I took your original Hex Set and plugged it into the damage calculator. Against Clefable OU Utility set with Magic Guard, it's most common ability. Fable is not at all scared by Wisp/Hex

Here's what I got for Dragapult.

Will-O-Wisp 0 - 0%

Hex 21.3 - 25.1%

U-turn 6.8 - 8.1%

Draco Meteor 0 - 0%

I'm sorry but this is not scary towards fable even on switch in. Fable has to have a status effect first, so that means I can switch in and get burned while avoiding chip damage thanks to Magic Guard. You use Hex and the highest you will get is 25%. That is not bad at all. I stay in as Fable and use Moonblast, and Pult suffers around 78.2 - 92.7% using your set. With 252 HP for Pult, MB does 65-77%, more than half while you barely scratch fable. (Also Fable has Knock Off to sit there and take away your boots) You may think, okay I'll just U turn or Switch in to someone else. That allows me to Soft Boiled negating your damage, knock off the item of your switch in which is always a plus or Stealth Rock. I just don't really see how that's too scary? It really shouldn't bother me none to just play against that. I would like to hear your response. Thank You~

Bruh you have to calc for hex against a burned enemy which is, according to your calc, about 43-50% (double regular damage). Worst case scenario, you deal 86% with two hexes, meaning the clef can be dropped consistently at 80%.(because leftovers)

 

[WM2N]

So I noticed that you said that Clefable loses to Wisp/Hex but I ran the calcs and beg to differ. I took your original Hex Set and plugged it into the damage calculator. Against Clefable OU Utility set with Magic Guard, it's most common ability. Fable is not at all scared by Wisp/Hex

Here's what I got for Dragapult.

Will-O-Wisp 0 - 0%

Hex 21.3 - 25.1%

U-turn 6.8 - 8.1%

Draco Meteor 0 - 0%

I'm sorry but this is not scary towards fable even on switch in. Fable has to have a status effect first, so that means I can switch in and get burned while avoiding chip damage thanks to Magic Guard. You use Hex and the highest you will get is 25%. That is not bad at all. I stay in as Fable and use Moonblast, and Pult suffers around 78.2 - 92.7% using your set. With 252 HP for Pult, MB does 65-77%, more than half while you barely scratch fable. (Also Fable has Knock Off to sit there and take away your boots) You may think, okay I'll just U turn or Switch in to someone else. That allows me to Soft Boiled negating your damage, knock off the item of your switch in which is always a plus or Stealth Rock. I just don't really see how that's too scary? It really shouldn't bother me none to just play against that. I would like to hear your response. Thank You~

The hex calc you made have 2 problems
A: you used the wrong clefable set
Wrong calc: 252 SpA Dragapult Hex (65 BP) vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Clefable: 84-99 (21.3 - 25.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Actual calc: 252 SpA Dragapult Hex (65 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 97-115 (24.6 - 29.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Clefable runs 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD here in Nat Dex, the calc you used is for SSOU

B: you did not include burn in your calc
Realistic calc: 252 SpA Dragapult Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Clefable is forced to constantly click softboiled, otherwise it will eventually get unlucky and get 2HKO if it clicked moonblast on the sub

So what happens?

First time pult switches in: Clef is baited in, pult uses wisp on the switch then runs away
Second time onwards: Clef is baited in again, pult uses sub then spams hex while clef is constantly softboiling, seems good at first but then you realise the pult can switch out and bring in another threatening teammate while clef uses soft-boiled. Oh and also crits exist.

You might wanna argue with the 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD Calm Nature spread to survive 3 hexes while being burned or using wish protect to pp stall hex out that's mentioned in the analysis, but as it stated there are a few flaws.

Direct Quote from clef's Nat dex Analysis

Utility and Calm Mind Clefable can use an EV spread of 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD with a Calm nature to survive a +2 Tectonic Rage from Nasty Plot Hydreigon, but it loses the ability to comfortably check Mega Lopunny, making this spread somewhat undesirable. Wish can be used on utility sets to give Pokemon that lack reliable recovery such as Heatran and Ferrothorn tons of needed support; however, Wish sets are extremely passive and easy for Pokemon to overwhelm. A Clefable set using Moonblast / Wish / Protect / Teleport makes it even easier to pass Wishes; unfortunately, it's very easy for Clefable to get overwhelmed by a plethora of dangerous Pokemon such as Mega-Scizor, Landorus-T, Rillaboom, and Tapu Lele, which can make it hard to pass Wish and keep Clefable healthy at the same time.

But wait there's more, clef is not going to be dedicated to countering pult, that would be unhealthy in it's own right yes but it's also gonna have a high chance needing to deal with pult's teammate, meaning that the pult user can play the long game and win either way. Do you see how unhealthy it is? Sure there's counterplay but it's super limited and those have a high chance losing to the other sets, meaning it puts unnecessary stress in teambuilding. This suspect test is not as one-sided as the tornadus therian one but pult is still way too broken for this tier, and for more detail explainations look at these 3 posts above.

 

[yogo896]

So I noticed that you said that Clefable loses to Wisp/Hex but I ran the calcs and beg to differ. I took your original Hex Set and plugged it into the damage calculator. Against Clefable OU Utility set with Magic Guard, it's most common ability. Fable is not at all scared by Wisp/Hex

Here's what I got for Dragapult.

Will-O-Wisp 0 - 0%

Hex 21.3 - 25.1%

U-turn 6.8 - 8.1%

Draco Meteor 0 - 0%

I'm sorry but this is not scary towards fable even on switch in. Fable has to have a status effect first, so that means I can switch in and get burned while avoiding chip damage thanks to Magic Guard. You use Hex and the highest you will get is 25%. That is not bad at all. I stay in as Fable and use Moonblast, and Pult suffers around 78.2 - 92.7% using your set. With 252 HP for Pult, MB does 65-77%, more than half while you barely scratch fable. (Also Fable has Knock Off to sit there and take away your boots) You may think, okay I'll just U turn or Switch in to someone else. That allows me to Soft Boiled negating your damage, knock off the item of your switch in which is always a plus or Stealth Rock. I just don't really see how that's too scary? It really shouldn't bother me none to just play against that. I would like to hear your response. Thank You~

I think u have got the whole thing wrong here. Dragapult clicks wisp and then it pivots with u-turn into a teammate that threatens clef. Like WM2N said, the set u are arguing with is used in SSOU. And even if u were to run that set, u lose to Dd.
+1 252 Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Clefable: 411-484 (104.3 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Bruh you have to calc for hex against a burned enemy which is, according to your calc, about 43-50% (double regular damage). Worst case scenario, you deal 86% with two hexes, meaning the clef can be dropped consistently at 80%.(because leftovers)

Yeah u have calc'd without burn, that's why its dealing so little damage.

 

[TheCounterTeamer]

Against Clefable OU Utility set with Magic Guard

I noticed that other people forgot to mention this, but Magic Guard cannot beat Dragon Dance . Due to the fact that can’t ignore the boosts, it fails to beat Physical . This means that Leftovers recovery is considered a non-variable if the gets burned by Will-O-Wisp and then Hex is doing over 50% to phys def .

Basically: Unaware is much better than Magic Guard when it comes to checking .

 

[Deno_nemesis]

I think u have got the whole thing wrong here. Dragapult clicks wisp and then it pivots with u-turn into a teammate that threatens clef. Like WM2N said, the set u are arguing with is used in SSOU. And even if u were to run that set, u lose to Dd.
+1 252 Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Clefable: 411-484 (104.3 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yeah u have calc'd without burn, that's why its dealing so little damage.

Ahhhhh I messed up that's my bad. I saw and read your points as well Nish WM2N and TheCounterTeamer. I'll admit that I was hasty on posting this, while also simultaneously ignoring the fact that Pult as multiple ways of fighting against a whole team of Pokemon.

 

[ThisShow]

Dragapult isn't banned in gen 8 where it's even more powerful as pursuit doesn't exist (pursuit tyranitar is a hard counter that a lot of teams run even without the intent of countering dragapult), so I don't understand why it should be banned in literally the same generation but with more pokemon and more counters to dragapult. Anything that works to counter it in gen 8 works here, and even more options are able to as well. I don't understand at all why it would be banned here and not in gen 8.

 

[yogo896]

Dragapult isn't banned in gen 8 where it's even more powerful as pursuit doesn't exist (pursuit tyranitar is a hard counter that a lot of teams run even without the intent of countering dragapult), so I don't understand why it should be banned in literally the same generation but with more pokemon and more counters to dragapult. Anything that works to counter it in gen 8 works here, and even more options are able to as well. I don't understand at all why it would be banned here and not in gen 8.

I agree to your point that Dragapult can be pursuit trapped in Nat Dex, but you also have to consider the fact that unlike SS, Nat Dex has Z-moves. The pros of the availability of Z-moves outdoes the cons of getting pursuit trapped. Also, more pokemon doesn't necessarily mean more counters (look at Tornadus-T).

 

[Boomenheimer]

I’m voting unban because being forced to run special pult in OU makes me nauseous (CB pult is still kinda fun but also feels like a hand me down). This demon deserves a meta to abuse its physical moveset and I am prepared to sacrifice NatDex to make this possible. Sorry in advance but please understand I just can’t take any more sets of this mon without dragon darts. Good day.

 

[WM2N]

Dragapult isn't banned in gen 8 where it's even more powerful as pursuit doesn't exist (pursuit tyranitar is a hard counter that a lot of teams run even without the intent of countering dragapult), so I don't understand why it should be banned in literally the same generation but with more pokemon and more counters to dragapult. Anything that works to counter it in gen 8 works here, and even more options are able to as well. I don't understand at all why it would be banned here and not in gen 8.

Pursuit does somewhat limits dragapult but if you take a look at the pursuiters only ttar is bulky enough to attempt to pull the trap off, but u-turn on specs or wisp hex sets invalidates that option as ttar just gets worn down quickly by repeated hits as it attempts to switch in against pult. It also gained a new scary teammate in mega mawile, as there's nothing worse than letting something as dangerous as that coming in for free as destroys all of it's counters. There's also other possibilities but the i'm not gonna go on for now and to summarise:
Pult has gained a lot from this format, pursuit existing as a disadvantage is little to nothing compared to that.

 

[Nish the Great]

I’m voting unban because being forced to run special pult in OU makes me nauseous (CB pult is still kinda fun but also feels like a hand me down). This demon deserves a meta to abuse its physical moveset and I am prepared to sacrifice NatDex to make this possible. Sorry in advance but please understand I just can’t take any more sets of this mon without dragon darts. Good day.

That’s really not a reason to unban a mon. You’re basically saying, “I need a meta where dragapult has broken physical sets so I can abuse the broken physical sets”

 

[Steorra]

Dragapult's suspect test has reached a conclusion. Thanks for everyone's input on the matter!