Announcement National Dex Suspect Test 2: Bug [Genesect BANNED]

[Ainzcrad]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/629299120015933475/676835767280205855/unknown.png
Genesect should be banned imo. The fact that it outpaces most mons (if scarf which is the best set for it imo) in the tier is already scary with its decent bulk and typing, adding to that the amount of sets you could run is kinda insane making it hard to predict vs it. Download giving it free +1 makes it a bit to broken for natdex. So Ban

 

[Sputnik]

Reqs

The fact that I ran Psychium Z SG Genesect just to hit Toxapex, used it for that approximately once, and had it STILL win half of the games I played says a lot.

Here's the cheeseball HO I used to req if anyone's interested. Ban the bug.

 

[Turbosmurf]

reqs

 

[Supl3x]

I mostly ran into scarf genesect while laddering. Even being prepared for it, the bug still gave me trouble.
Extreme Speed late game sweep was something I also ran into.
Shift gear is crazy in combination with Genesect's move pool. Lots of bruh moments with this set.

BAN el bicho

 

[apoteosis]

Reqs

Ban the bug

 

[Strongerr]

Do NOT ban genesect. My criteria for banning mons, is if they can beat all their checks and counters. Genesect has various checks, and heatran that slow it down offensively. It's wide movepool and various sets do allow it to beat its checks, however there's only 4 moves and 1 item that you can run at a time. So far playing nat dex, i have yet to see genesect single handedly win games, both using and facing it. Also, if this isn't the correct way to vote on this, someone tell me how, this is actually my first time voting on a suspect.

 

[theotherguytm]

My criteria for banning mons, is if they can beat all their checks and counters.

If this was true, we would be unbanning Xern because it loses to AV Amoonguss. And then we could unban Yveltal since that loses to Xern... And at that point, we unban everything.

It's wide movepool and various sets do allow it to beat its checks, however there's only 4 moves and 1 item that you can run at a time.

The fact is that Gene does in fact destroy its checks and counters with the correct set (HP Ground, Dowse Drive, Shift Gear Z move...). While it's true it cannot beat all of them at once, the opponent has to second-guess which it can and can't beat, leading to Gene having no consistent counterplay. Even if it's holding Dowse Drove, the 4th move it hasn't revealed yet could be Shift Gear, and it's not actually got Techno Blast. Or after spending the entire game U-turning, it's not actually Choices and Shift Gears in your face before blowing your check back with a Z move. Or it could be Banded not Scarfed, and it cleans you with Extreme Speed. Or it could be Expert Belt and switches moves to blow your Heatran that switched in on Ice Beam to hell with HP Ground. There's simply no way of knowing, and Download just makes it worse still, as certain sets wipe teams with one boost, others with the other and you have again no way of knowing. And the final insult on top is anything it doesn't beat, it just U-turns on and passes to a teammate to deal with/use as setup fodder while damaging the switch in, usually by a fair amount too. Gene has no checks or counters because it just U-turns on anything it doesn't beat, without telling you anything about its set (since it could just be pretending to not beat that mon.)

i have yet to see genesect single handedly win games, both using and facing it

No mon can do this. Even Shell Smash Blastiose needs screen support and has mons like Fini it loses to. Besides, Gene is a pivot, not usually a flat-out wincon. I think your standard for banning a mon are pretty unreasonable, and I'd argue no mon can do what you require it to do. Not even Mega Ray, since that still needs Rocks cleared, checks removed etc. Zacian C needs Unaware Quagsire removed before it can do anything (unless it's running a Solar Blade meme set). So we should therefore unban Zacian C because it has a check. I hope this helps you see how silly this argument is.

 

[Baltimore Beedrills]

View attachment 222841

I mostly ran into scarf genesect while laddering. Even being prepared for it, the bug still gave me trouble.
Extreme Speed late game sweep was something I also ran into.
Shift gear is crazy in combination with Genesect's move pool. Lots of bruh moments with this set.

BAN el bicho

The fact that Genesect is capable of learning Shift Gear already raises a lot of eyebrows. In tandem with Download, you either have the equivalent of a free SD or you have the proper boosts for being a mixed attacker. And that's without taking the speed boost into account. Granted, Heatran and Rotom-Heat do pressure this thing, but its spammable STAB U-turn remedies that easily. And having to bring one of these specifically to check that insect is absurd.

 

[Zneon]

gottem

 

[Meme0267]

"The bug that can do anything"

 

[DuckCeci]

Genesect is a strong mon but it's definitely not enough to warrant a ban. It can be checked by a lot of mons fairly easily especially if it's a choice set (as most ive encountered are and what I've had the most success with) The real concerns should be things like Zygarde as it is significantly more threatening and hard to play around, and much easier to get swept by if you aren't prepared for the set. Genesect has too many ways to counter it and isn't threatening enough to be considered broken.

I vote not to ban.

 

[PurusDulus]

idk if this is enough but here's my reqs

 

[theotherguytm]

Genesect is a strong mon but it's definitely not enough to warrant a ban. It can be checked by a lot of mons fairly easily especially if it's a choice set (as most ive encountered are and what I've had the most success with)

Really? Name these mons that can switch into Gene if you only know it has U-turn. Because I can name a Gene set for every one of them that will blow your "checks" to hell. All Gene has to do to bait things is U-turn a few times and people assume it's choiced. But even if it is choiced,you have no idea what the other 3 moves are (eg:if it has HP Ground, say bye-bye heatran, Flamethrower says bye bye to other Genes and Scizors.) Basically all it has to do is predict your (pretty forced) switch and nail it. And if it doesn't carry the move that beats it, it just U-turns into a teammate that abuses the switch-in (eg: it doesn't carry HP ground, just U-turn on Heatran and Mega Toise gets setup fodder).
BTW, for the record, if Scarf was Gene's only set, it would not be an issue. The issue comes from the 101 other sets it can run while pretending to be scarfed in most cases.
(Before you suggest Volcarona:
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Volcarona: 225-265 (60.3 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Genesect Inferno Overdrive (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Volcarona: 400-471 (107.2 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (SG on the switch-in)
+1 252 Atk Genesect Explosion vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Volcarona: 468-551 (125.4 - 147.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (hope you didn't need that for something else))
There has been a lot of bad no-ban arguments, or no-ban people just refusing to post reasoning. Please, discuss this. Because if we get a no-ban result without any proper arguments for a no-ban being made (ie:arguments that don't simply state "checks and counters exist", or trying to argue a pivot has 4MSS somehow), then I think a lot of players will be very unhappy.

The real concerns should be things like Zygarde as it is significantly more threatening and hard to play around, and much easier to get swept by if you aren't prepared for the set.

Don't worry, we're getting to it (I hope). But first we're going to get rid of the insane pivot that gives everything as many free switch-ins as it likes and can tailor its set to bait in whatever setup fodder its team likes. Zy is a little less insane without it getting a free switch into Heatran every 5 minutes.

 

[Strongerr]

Celesteela, Toxapex, Heatran, Corviknight, Magearna, Magnezone(scarf), Rotom-H, are some of the mons who can switch into genesect with the right set. Now obviously, genesect has techs that can beat most of these mons, but even greninja could beat av magearna, and bulu, and most of its checks with the right tech. It also requires prediction on the gene user's part in order to beat them, its not something nearly brainless like geomancy. And yes i realize that u-turn enables genesect to be able to just yeet on out of there in most of these situations, and that's what makes the mon really good. But there are too many switch ins, and not enough move slots for genesect to be extremely effective every single game. In certain matchups, with the right set, genesect can put in massive work. With the wrong one, it's a glorified u-turner. I don't believe it's unhealthy to the metagame, and that's why i'm voting to not ban. We can have different opinions on the matter, that's what this is all about. Also stop taking my words so literally, when i said "single-handedly win games" I meant breaking down entire cores, and/or sweeping entire teams. Now, if you have a different experience with the bug, that might explain why you have a different opinion. Now stop attacking each person on this thread for their so called "bad arguments" in favour of genesect, we're all here to give our own opinions and votes so once you've done that please just wait for a verdict.

 

[theotherguytm]

Celesteela

Unviable, see the VR thread. See also Corv below.

Toxapex

Loses to Thunderbolt, one of Gene's most common moves. Doesn't exactly do anything to it either since Gene is immune to Toxic and special varients don't mind Scalds.
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 306-362 (100.6 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 158-186 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Heatran

The stereotypical Genesect check, prone to getting worn down by repeated U-turns and hazards due to its lack of reliable recovery, and also very easy for many Pokemon to abuse when given a free switch in from Gene's U-turn, which negates Heatran's main strength of being hard to switch into (nothing likes taking a Magma Storm or Lava Plume with burn, let alone its coverage, but it's pretty slow so not as great on a double switch). A list of such Pokemon include, but are not limited to, Earthquake Mega Gross, Zygarde, Mega Toise, Lando-T, Toxapex, Mega Lop and Greninja. Heatran is also the mon Gene adapts its sets most for, with Hidden Power Ground and Douse Drive Techno Blast being viable to lure and kill/scare off Heatran.

Corviknight

Doesn't like Thunderbolt or Flamethrower/Blaze Kick. Setup bait for Shift Gear sets.
+1 252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt/Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 224-264 (56 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Genesect Blaze Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Corviknight: 378-446 (94.5 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 120-142 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Magearna

Hates Flamethrower and especially Blaze Kick, HP Ground also stings. Setup bait for Shift Gear again.
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Genesect Blaze Kick vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 350-412 (96.4 - 113.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 165-195 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (who needs prediction, so offensive sets cannot check Gene, so it has to be defensive Magear)
+1 252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 248-292 (68.3 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Expert Belt Genesect Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 160 SpD Magearna: 173-204 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Magnezone(scarf)

...U-turns out of? Or:
+1 252+ SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 334-394 (118.4 - 139.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You better be very sure it's not scarf, come in on the right move with it having the right boost and hope it doesn't Shift Gear as you come in.
+2 252 Atk Genesect Blaze Kick vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 310-366 (109.9 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Rotom-H

Nothing that gets 2HKOed by a Banded Espeed can be your sole Gene check, or you are in deep do-do. Also lacks reliable recovery so gets U-turned on to death, though Boots helps that. Genuinely good mon though, even after Gene gets hopefully banned.
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 175-206 (58.3 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 76-90 (25.3 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

greninja could beat av magearna, and bulu, and most of its checks with the right tech.

The difference here is Greninja has 4MSS, in order to beat its checks it has to give up certain matchups it needs to win or other utility. Greninja also has weaker offensive presence, with no ability to setup. Its weak defensive typing and useless defenses makes it difficult to switch it into battle, and easy to revenge kill with a wide variety of Pokemon. Ash-Greninja makes Gren more dangerous and unpredictable, but it needs certain sacrifices to reach that point. In practice Gren usually cannot beat everything its team would like it to. Genesect has no such issues, being comfortably capable of doing everything its team needs within 4 moves. Its amazing defensive typing makes up for its average bulk and gives it plenty of switch-in opportunities. While they both have U-turn to abuse their checks, Greninja has to give up something like Spikes to run U-turn, while Gene can naturally fit it into its moveset. Having BoltBeam coverage makes Gene's 4th moveslot on its standard set open to everything the team would need, as it hits almost everything in 2 moves. Compare Greninja, who cannot even fit the coverage it would like in 4.

Now stop attacking each person on this thread for their so called "bad arguments" in favour of genesect, we're all here to give our own opinions and votes so once you've done that please just wait for a verdict.

Just trying to actually have discussion and understand the anti-ban arguments (since the pro-ban side has been very well covered at this point). Because there has been multiple people who have just said Do Not Ban without covering why they think that. So... From an outside point of view, everything is leaning towards Ban just because the only real arguments in the thread are for ban. Also, voting hasn't started yet, there will be a separate thread for that in a few days.

 

[Baltimore Beedrills]

View attachment 223166
Genesect is a strong mon but it's definitely not enough to warrant a ban. It can be checked by a lot of mons fairly easily especially if it's a choice set (as most ive encountered are and what I've had the most success with) The real concerns should be things like Zygarde as it is significantly more threatening and hard to play around, and much easier to get swept by if you aren't prepared for the set. Genesect has too many ways to counter it and isn't threatening enough to be considered broken.

I vote not to ban.

Genesect does have two checks, Heatran and Rotom-Heat. Both are not only slower than Genesect, but also easily get worn down by a STAB U-Turn. And while we do have other mons that resist its STABs such as Celesteela, Corviknight, Magearna, etc., it's important to remember that Genesect's movepool is ridiculous. It can run a myriad of coverage moves including Thunderbolt, Blaze Kick, Ice Beam, Flamethrower, etc. (Gunk Shot too, surprisingly). And it has access to Extreme Speed, too; it's got everything a fully offensive mon would ever dream of. We also have to consider that it can easily set up with Shift Gear or Flame Charge, and the boost from Download as well.

Now, I personally don't mind Genesect too much, since I run a team with Torkoal and Venusaur (both have done increasingly well with a lot of Genesect sets barring the Scarf special set), but all the reasons stated here (and reasons already stated by other people before me) already makes the insect liable to a ban. I won't be voting since the last suspect test (Dynamax) nearly drove me insane just trying to get reqs, and the fact that banning Genesect won't affect me too much. But it's clearly got a lot running for it; the OU tier does not need two Scizors (three if anyone wants to count Durant).

 

[damflame 3]

For me genesect deserves the ban

 

[hpTheSwag]

I'm actually quite impressed by the low number of genesect I have met: only one over the 35 games... but based on current discussions, will vote ban

 

[Avery]

My proof of reqs is from the room tour, and based on the wide variety of sets that it can run, it could always potentially beat its checks. Heatran may check most sets, but not mixed HP Ground or Douse Drive RP. Other checks can fall to some of its other sets, like scarf, band, specs, ebelt, or Shift Gear. Point being sometimes you might not know the set until it's far too late. Based on this, plus it being the best pivot in the tier, I vote to BAN.

 

[FleurCannon]

https://ibb.co/xLpV8bz reqs
Ban

 

[Railgun]

 

[Delibird Heart]

Got reqs with some lazy fresh as fuck veil offense, ayy
Still undecided on the issue but if I understood correctly the actual voting will be done later right ?

 

[pulsar512b]

View attachment 223826
Got reqs with some lazy fresh as fuck veil offense, ayy
Still undecided on the issue but if I understood correctly the actual voting will be done later right ?

That is correct.

Also, sorry about those crits.

 

[Flygoner818]

I think I’m a couple minutes late but I got reqs, hopefully I can participate

I vote NO BAN. I haven’t really felt like Genesect is the monster it was in past generations. I almost always had counterplay for it, and most are scarf which means that even boosted they don’t have the same damage output as a life orb or banded set. Most Fire types can check or counter non HP Ground or Douse Drive variants, and Water types are great blanket checks for him if it lacks Thunderbolt. Frankly, having a scarfer who outspeeds Darm and can force it out is actually really useful and one of the things that makes Darm not overpowered in this tier as it was in OU. I have a feeling I am in the minority, but I would like to see the tier develop a little more before tossing out bans, especially with new Pokémon soon to be released.

 

[Funbot28]

View attachment 223872I think I’m a couple minutes late but I got reqs, hopefully I can participate

I vote NO BAN. I haven’t really felt like Genesect is the monster it was in past generations. I almost always had counterplay for it, and most are scarf which means that even boosted they don’t have the same damage output as a life orb or banded set. Most Fire types can check or counter non HP Ground or Douse Drive variants, and Water types are great blanket checks for him if it lacks Thunderbolt. Frankly, having a scarfer who outspeeds Darm and can force it out is actually really useful and one of the things that makes Darm not overpowered in this tier as it was in OU. I have a feeling I am in the minority, but I would like to see the tier develop a little more before tossing out bans, especially with new Pokémon soon to be released.

Unfortunately not as voting ended at 12 AM EST.

For the other qualified voters, expect a voting thread up soon. For the meantime, I will be locking this.