Ubers National Dex Ubers Stage 2 - Dragons (Koraidon suspect test)

[Eledyr]

The National Dex Ubers council has unanimously decided to suspect test Koraidon.

Reasoning

Koraidon has been a very controversial Pokemon in the National Dex Ubers environment ever since its release. Packing incredible stats, offensive typing, and ability, it has no shortage when it comes to be a defining piece of the metagame. Its sets go from an offensive pivot, packing U-Turn and a Choice Scarf which can invalidates many fast offensive threats like Dragon Dance Ultra-Necrozma, Dragon Dance Zygarde, and Rock Polish Primal Groudon, to a wallbreaker set with Swords Dance and a Z-Crystal to its choice, allowing to bypass some of its best check like Primal Kyogre, Ho-Oh, and defensive Zygarde, or a Choice Band for more immediate firepower, taking the advantage by surprise on certain threats like Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre that could otherwise survive its unboosted attacks with much more ease. Its usual checks and counters comes in the form of Ho-Oh, which can survive quick easily to anything a Choice Scarf or a Choice Band set can throw at it and shrug off the damages with Regenerator, Tera Fairy Zygarde, which can use the fact that Outrage is usually used on its Choice set as its STAB Dragon-type attack, and cripples it with Glare, and Dondozo, while being only ever realistically used on stall teams, is a huge roadblock to Koraidon. Other forms of countermeasures comes with Fairy-types like Arceus-Fairy and Zacian-C, which can either survive its assault and retrieve back or simply outruns it naturally and threatens to OHKO it with a STAB boosted Play Rough.

Even though Koraidon has been a central piece of the metagame, The Teal Mask DLC brought up a new offensive tool for Koraidon, in the form of Scale Shot. While its Dual Dance sets were good, Flame Charge had the disadvantage of being a low BP move, thus Koraidon had to sacrifice an important move like Flare Blitz when playing it. On the other hand, Scale Shot is a STAB boosted move, and its great BP when Koraidon hits 4 or 5 times allows it to break through strong defensive walls such as Ho-Oh, Zygarde, and Giratina, while boosting its Speed. This is even amplified as non Z-Move Swords Dance variants did not had to use a specific item, meaning Loaded Dice is a ready-made solution that fixes the inconsistency of Scale Shot, making it incredibly better due to Scale Shot being stronger than Dragon Claw with Loaded Dice, and without the drawback of locking into it against Fairy-types compare to Outrage. The council discussed about it, and come to the unanimous conclusion that a suspect test is a fair step to decide if Koraidon must remain in the tier.

Suspect Test Information

• Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 30 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
• The table for this can be found below:

Requisites

GXE	minimum games
84	30
83.8	31
83.6	32
83.4	33
83.2	34
83	35
82.8	36
82.6	37
82.4	38
82.2	39
82	40
81.8	41
81.6	42
81.4	43
81.2	44
81	45
80.8	46
80.6	47
80.4	48
80.2	49
80	50

• You must sign up with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be NDUK. For example I could use the name NDUK Eledyr.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted.
• We will be using the regular National Dex Ubers ladder for this suspect test, and Koraidon will be legal throughout the entire suspect test.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• The suspect test will go on for roughly two weeks, lasting until October 8th at 11:59pm GMT+2, and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. Here's a list of rules that we expect all posters to follow:

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects;
• You are required to make respectful posts;
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the National Dex Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering to these will help out the moderation team and present your arguments in a better and more educated light.
  • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
  • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.

The test will run until October 8th 11:59pm GMT+2. In order to ban Koraidon, a 66.6% supermajority will be required. If you meet the requirements, post a screenshot in the voting requirements thread - but please take note of the criteria outlined there when you do in order to be eligible. Happy posting and laddering!

tagging Kris and Marty for the suspect alert, thank you!

 

[ANinjaDude]

Does anyone have any consistent method of checking Koraidon, or any compelling reason to keep it around?

 

[Zrp200]

Does anyone have any consistent method of checking Koraidon, or any compelling reason to keep it around?

The better question to ask is "Why should Koraidon be banned?"

I urge people to read the argument presented in the original post.

Since this requires a 66.6% supermajority, virtually any doubt will likely materialize in it not being banned.

To answer your question though, the counterplay is as follows:

Counterplay

• Deny setup (easier said than done considering it has 5 teammates and very good move pool and set diversity)
• Surprise it with an unexpected Tera to allow you to survive an attack and OHKO it back. Tera Fairy in particular can block Scale Shot.
• Ditto
• Priority (only works if it has used Scale Shot a few times or has significant prior chip). However, Tera Ghost trolls Arceus and Deoxys, while Tera Normal prevents Marshadow (which already needs a huge amount of chip on top of -2 unless band+tera ghost).
• Hard switching Zacian-C or Flutter Mane on Scale Shot to prevent it from boosting (doesn't work if Flame Charge). If you mess this up you lose your Fairy and Koraidon will proceed to easily sweep.
• Praying it misses Scale Shot or low rolls Scale Shot in the few cases that it matters
• Endure + Custap Berry + Destiny Bond is an extremely consistent way to ensure that Koraidon goes down. You can also use Mega Banette for Prankster Destiny Bond, especially since you can use Phantom Force for the times it doesn't fall for it.

This is hardly healthy if I'm tempted to run Mega Banette, Tera Fairy on everything, and especially Ditto to "check" it. And no, none of these are consistent stops.

Please, please, if you want this banned, spam Scale Shot Koraidon on the ladder.
This move is the tipper, more than anything else. The other sets are strong but not nearly as broken, and some may argue that Scarf is somewhat healthy.

 

[cfdu1202]

It's not a secret that Koraidon is one of the best Pokemon in the metagame. It was already quite difficult to check before, as the Dragonium Z set or SD Flame Charge set required very specific counterplay like Ho-Oh, Arceus Fairy in pristine condition, and a backup check in the form of Tera Fairy Zygarde, Tera Fairy Eternatus, Tera Fairy Ho-Oh again or Ditto. However, assuming you had them, it was actually not that trivial for the Koraidon user to break, by itself, such a defensive core.

The problem now with the addition of Loaded Dice Scale Shot is that when Koraidon is at +2, it doesn't need to fire a Z move to threaten its best check in Ho-Oh, and it can also Tera to the appropriate typing to nuke Fairies with a +2 Flare Blitz in the sun, killing both Ho-Oh and non Tera-Water Arceus-Fairy, two of its best checks before, and also essentially removing Tera Fairy Zygarde-Complete for the remaining of the game. Note that hard switching Zacian-C or Flutter Mane is just suicide.

+2 252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Tera Fire Koraidon Flare Blitz vs. 208 HP / 244+ Def Tera Fairy Zygarde-Complete in Sun: 511-603 (81.7 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Revenging Koraidon is not as easy as it seems, as the only relevant Pokemon in the metagame that can outspeed Koraidon are Zacian-C, Deoxys, Scarf Koraidon itself, Mega Mewtwo Y if you're feeling bold enough, and Flutter Mane, and as 100/115/100 bulk allows Koraidon to take the following hits:

252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Normal Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 208-247 (60.9 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Tera Normal Arceus Extreme Speed vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 288-340 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Ghost Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 254-300 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Extreme Speed vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 166-196 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Tera Dark Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 147-173 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO

Now Koraidon is also able to Tera Ghost and avoid some of the above scenarios (especially versus Extremekiller).

You can always hit Koraidon hard when it sets up SD and then revenging it, but this means that you can hardly run the likes of Arceus-Dark, defensive Yveltal or any Pokemon that cannot hit it hard enough so that its HP falls within the range of the priority move of your choice. This has been one of the most consistent counterplay but the metagame shifts towards an even more offensive one with priority flying everywhere. It's not fun to put Tera Fairy on 3/6 members of a balanced team. It's not inherently a bad thing considering it's Ubers, and for sure there will always be some centralizing threats, but the question is is it too much for the metagame to bear. Still not sure if I'll be voting ban, I'm leaning towards yes, but I'll understand if it ends up staying in the tier.

 

[bumboclaat]

Finished up my reqs using this team. It certainly isn't the best team, but works well enough, especially for the some of the nonsense you run into on ladder. For what it is worth I would have happily voted to ban on even if it did not have scale shot. It is not a mon that I generally have trouble with, but its constraint on teambuilding and in battle are too high. If i were to vote based on what I saw during my suspect run I probably would not vote to ban, but that is largely due to poor play rather than not being unhealthily broken. Far too many of my opponents would ry to set up a swords dance on the telegraphed or forced and get glared as it turned into a fairy rather than fire off an attack and let it sweep later.

Additionally, though mentioned in the suspect post above does not mention . Though it only fits on stall it is legimitately quite good on those structures and does stop in its tracks as well as the

that is quite common at the moment compared to a couple of months ago. Even if I am not a fan of playing it stall matches up well into most things you'll see on the ladder at the moment.

The scariest version of I ran into was by a country mile. Unsurprisingly, a larger portion of teams are structured to better deal with which can take advantage of thanks to the immediate power and pivoting. An offensive core of

/

and or would absolutely rip through most of the teams I faced getting reqs if someone is interested in building a BO.

Edit: As mentioned above //

is amazing on general HO.

 

[PANDAgedin51]

Nothing is stopping . It consistently OHKOs entire teams with it's moves. I tried using a it got OH by a Flare Blitz, I tried using a , It got killed before it could do anything. And it gets scale shot, which allows it to out speed

 

[bumboclaat]

Nothing is stopping . It consistently OHKOs entire teams with it's moves. I tried using a it got OH by a Flare Blitz, I tried using a , It got killed before it could do anything. And it gets scale shot, which allows it to out speed

can revenge it since it will outspeed thanks to both the proto boost and the . The types of team you'll usually find on are not going to have the defensive backbone to switch around or soft check . And it isn't like balance or BO has a great time checking either. generally works incredibly well, but can be easily overloaded if the player isn't stupidly greedy, but still doesn't love switching into .

I don't know why you'd use is a check unless maybe it is

(+2 blitz is still a coin flip to OHKO). Even then almost all are going to be running

/

if not both. I presume you're running to check is a hard sell over . Others can chime in and correct me if I'm wrong, but 's biggest selling point is its role compression in setting up spikes whilst checking/countering some special attackers has trouble with such as or most lacking focus blast.

I don't know if this is too much but TR or

Thunder Wave/TR seems workable on paper. Though if you're at the point where you're thinking of this it is fairly obvious that should be banned.

 

[BlackStar15_]

I have completed the suspect test and I don't think Koraidon has to be banned. It clearly struggles against fairy types and especially against Tera fairy Zygarde. And Koraidon is the only reliable stall breaker left as the other stall breakers such as Mega Rayquaza Mega Gengar Calyrex and Miraidon are already banned. If Koraidon also gets banned this tier won't be anything but stall. So I strongly disagree with banning Koraidon.

 

[ANinjaDude]

I have completed the suspect test and I don't think Koraidon has to be banned. It clearly struggles against fairy types and especially against Tera fairy Zygarde. And Koraidon is the only reliable stall breaker left as the other stall breakers such as Mega Rayquaza Mega Gengar Calyrex and Miraidon are already banned. If Koraidon also gets banned this tier won't be anything but stall. So I strongly disagree with banning Koraidon.

This entire Paragraph is full of blatantly untrue statements. It does not especially struggle vs Fairy type, as Xerneas, Zacian-C, and Tera Fairy Zygod all fall to a Flare Blitz. Koraidon does not struggle vs Ho-Oh either, as at +2, Scale Shot has 50/50 odds to OHKO Ho-Oh from full. Koraidon isn't even the only stallbreaker left, there are still other stallbreakers, like Taunt Yveltal or Darkceus, Trapper Zygod, or Deoxys-Attack.

 

[cfdu1202]

I have completed the suspect test and I don't think Koraidon has to be banned. It clearly struggles against fairy types and especially against Tera fairy Zygarde. And Koraidon is the only reliable stall breaker left as the other stall breakers such as Mega Rayquaza Mega Gengar Calyrex and Miraidon are already banned. If Koraidon also gets banned this tier won't be anything but stall. So I strongly disagree with banning Koraidon.

Tera Fire Koraidon eats Fairies for breakfast except Tera Fairy Zygarde who is basically removed from the game after the interaction with Koraidon. Some fairies can't even tank a regular Flare Blitz, as Koraidon simply hits too hard.

+2 252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Tera Fire Koraidon Flare Blitz vs. 208 HP / 244+ Def Tera Fairy Zygarde-Complete in Sun: 511-603 (81.7 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And no, you don't need Koraidon to have a good matchup agaisnt stall. The whole tier is filled with Pokemon that shit on stall without having to compromise against offensive teams.

 

[Eledyr]

I have completed the suspect test and I don't think Koraidon has to be banned. It clearly struggles against fairy types and especially against Tera fairy Zygarde. And Koraidon is the only reliable stall breaker left as the other stall breakers such as Mega Rayquaza Mega Gengar Calyrex and Miraidon are already banned. If Koraidon also gets banned this tier won't be anything but stall. So I strongly disagree with banning Koraidon.

Just wanna mention this does NOT reach the requirements; your GXE is at 81%, which is under 83,4% within 34 games. I suggest you to play more games within the suspect test period if you want to be able to vote.

 

[arbiter1337]

I have completed the suspect test and I don't think Koraidon has to be banned. It clearly struggles against fairy types and especially against Tera fairy Zygarde. And Koraidon is the only reliable stall breaker left as the other stall breakers such as Mega Rayquaza Mega Gengar Calyrex and Miraidon are already banned. If Koraidon also gets banned this tier won't be anything but stall. So I strongly disagree with banning Koraidon.

‘Why doesn’t my opponent use 6 fairy types and/or stallmons to kill Koraidon? Is he stupid?’
ALL THE FAIRIES IN THE TIER DIE TO BLITZ.
Also Stall is far from the best strategy lmao just use setup Ultra Necro Photon Geyser if you hate Dondozo that much
Also Offensive Peedon kills stall good in my experience
Also Xern kills stall I think
Also Marshadow probably

 

[dtc09]

another thing i'd like to mention is stall is the playstyle that deals with kora the best, as it can afford to run fatmons like dozo that check it the best and that balance and co. can't afford to run

 

[BlackStar15_]

I have completed the suspect test by getting more than 83.4% GXE and I don't think Koraidon has to be banned. It clearly struggles against fairy types and especially against Tera fairy Zygarde. And Koraidon is the only reliable stall breaker left as the other stall breakers such as Mega Rayquaza Mega Gengar Calyrex and Miraidon are already banned. If Koraidon also gets banned this tier won't be anything but stall. So I strongly disagree with banning Koraidon.

 

[ANinjaDude]

I have completed the suspect test by getting more than 83.4% GXE and I don't think Koraidon has to be banned. It clearly struggles against fairy types and especially against Tera fairy Zygarde.

Koraidon does not particularly struggle against fairy types, as every single fairy type in the tier falls to a +2 Flare Blitz, and if every person is required to run Tera Fairy Zygod to beat Koraidon, then Koraidon is banworthy, because it restricts teambuilding unnecessarily.

And Koraidon is the only reliable stall breaker left as the other stall breakers such as Mega Rayquaza Mega Gengar Calyrex and Miraidon are already banned. If Koraidon also gets banned this tier won't be anything but stall. So I strongly disagree with banning Koraidon.

This is just blatantly false information, as Koraidon is nowhere near the only stallbreaker, or even the best one. Some suggestions from people who know the metagame on stallbreakers include things like Unecro, PDon, Xern, Marshadow(except SashShadow, fuck Sash Shadow), and anything running Taunt. Stall is actually one of the teams with the best MU into Koraidon, as you can actually afford to bring the sort of bulk necessary to check Koraidon.

 

[bumboclaat]

is by far the best stallbreaker I've used. It can also pretty much solo trick room as well which is quite nice for the occasional time you run into it on ladder.

Set

Yveltal @ Life Orb
Ability: Dark Aura
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Oblivion Wing
- Taunt
- Knock Off

I agree with with more or less everything said above, especially with taunt which is quite easy to fit somewhere on most teams. It probably shouldn't be shocking, but I always have a chuckle when I remember that 2hkos with overheat with a hazard up without any investment.

 

[FrostedC]

Anyone tried physically defensive Tera Fairy Kyogre? Rain ruins Koraidon's ability and weakens blitz, so avoids being 2hkoed, can 2hko back with ice beam, status it, or OHKO if it's tera'd into a fire type with a water move. Which leaves its best option as:

+2 252 Atk Koraidon Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fairy Kyogre: 156-183 (38.7 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Just wanted to see if anyone had any success or if it only works in theory

 

[BlackStar15_]

P don easily gets walled by Giratina and Zygarde which is very much used in high ladder and Ultra Necrozma also gets walled by Arceus dark another mon there almost there in all teams in ladder above 1800.

 

[dtc09]

Anyone tried physically defensive Tera Fairy Kyogre? Rain ruins Koraidon's ability and weakens blitz, so avoids being 2hkoed, can 2hko back with ice beam, status it, or OHKO if it's tera'd into a fire type with a water move. Which leaves its best option as:

+2 252 Atk Koraidon Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fairy Kyogre: 156-183 (38.7 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Just wanted to see if anyone had any success or if it only works in theory

the problem is that you're running regular kyogre in pdon: the format just for one mon

 

[ANinjaDude]

P don easily gets walled by Giratina and Zygarde which is very much used in high ladder and Ultra Necrozma also gets walled by Arceus dark another mon there almost there in all teams in ladder above 1800.

Giratina-O is easily worn down, and almost all support Arc formes stop Zygod. Darkceus is fairly easy to wear down with things like Zacian-C or Marshadow.

 

[cfdu1202]

I have completed the suspect test by getting more than 83.4% GXE and I don't think Koraidon has to be banned. It clearly struggles against fairy types and especially against Tera fairy Zygarde. And Koraidon is the only reliable stall breaker left as the other stall breakers such as Mega Rayquaza Mega Gengar Calyrex and Miraidon are already banned. If Koraidon also gets banned this tier won't be anything but stall. So I strongly disagree with banning Koraidon.

I don't see how the state of stall in the metagame can have any bearing at all in the ban of Koraidon. If the Pokemon is broken then we ban it, if not then we let it stay.

 

[DLG]

I have completed the suspect test by getting more than 83.4% GXE and I don't think Koraidon has to be banned. It clearly struggles against fairy types and especially against Tera fairy Zygarde. And Koraidon is the only reliable stall breaker left as the other stall breakers such as Mega Rayquaza Mega Gengar Calyrex and Miraidon are already banned. If Koraidon also gets banned this tier won't be anything but stall. So I strongly disagree with banning Koraidon.

smogon and their stall favoritism and stall metas strike once again. (I will be voting ban on koraidon)

 

[Joseph Gomes]

I have completed the suspect test and I don't think Koraidon has to be banned. It clearly struggles against fairy types and especially against Tera fairy Zygarde. And Koraidon is the only reliable stall breaker left as the other stall breakers such as Mega Rayquaza Mega Gengar Calyrex and Miraidon are already banned. If Koraidon also gets banned this tier won't be anything but stall. So I strongly disagree with banning Koraidon.

what the hell did i just read. Did you just say that NDUbers will be dominated by stall if Koraidon gets banned?

 

[BlackStar15_]

what the hell did i just read. Did you just say that NDUbers will be dominated by stall if Koraidon gets banned?

Yep it's already full of stall above 1800 in ladder

 

[SandwichLover]

Yep it's already full of stall above 1800 in ladder

According to the August Usage stats, stall only accounts for roughly 5 percent of all games played above 1720 elo.