Ubers National Dex Ubers Stage 3.5 - I Am... All of Me [APRIL FOOLS]

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Bobsican

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:focus sash::sv/marshadow:

As a result of general commentary in the Discord server and in the metagame discussion thread, the council has decided to open up discussion for a certain trending set in the ladder: Focus Sash Marshadow.

With over a 50% of usage among all Marshadow seen at high ladder play, sets involving this item have remained as a trend, and this has started to be seen as a concern ever since Xerneas was banned to partially mitigate this.
Marshadow stands in the current metagame as a top threat, and that comes from a variety of positive traits including a practically unresisted type combination, strong move options in Poltergeist and Low Kick, several coverage options between Rock Tomb, Ice Punch, and the far more niche Close Combat, and of course compressing utility between priority in a Technician-boosted Shadow Sneak and Spectral Thief, the last of which allows Marshadow to flip the momentum of setup sweepers.
Marshadow is on paper held back by its stats defensively speaking being almost average at best, so it can't just come into foes such as Coil Zygarde, Calm Mind Arceus formes, or even revenge kill foes such as a healthy Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM or Mega Mewtwo Y, however, Focus Sash removes such limitations, ensuring that Marshadow lives any attack once, allowing it to flip the matchup against the before-mentioned foes and more, outclassing Ditto by having more innate offensive traits over heavily relying on momentum and whatever the other team has in the first place. Marshadow also retains a dangerous STAB combination without a choice lock after stealing the stat boosts of a foe, allowing it to potentially end games, in particular being able to backfire Zacian-C's Intrepid Sword and OHKO it with Spectral Thief, and using its Focus Sash as a safety net against foes it doesn't manage to OHKO like Coil Zygarde, especially when entry hazards aren't a factor.

Ultimately, this is a open discussion thread on the matter, to gather the general thoughts and reasonings of the community over if any tiering action should be done to Focus Sash Marshadow to raise the quality/liking of the metagame.

It's to be noted that this is not a suspect test, this is merely measuring general opinions on the matter to then potentially make an informed decision. Please be respectful when posting and arguing with other users.
 
I ran into this so much during my Xerneas suspect run. The fact that it can beat my +6/+6 Whiscash is stupid. Ban it. Free Whiscash.
your wiscash would have been fine if you just ran tera normal. That's why everything runs tera normal. Mewtwo, Dondozo, Rayquaza, Deoxys-Attack, Zacian-C, any arceus (normal arceus also runs tera normal OBVIOUSLY), eternatus, and even zygarde runs tera normal.

BAN SASHSHADOW, END THE TERA NORMAL REQUIREMENT
 
Sash shadow with endeavor is an extremely overlooked threat. If it gets brought down to sash then it forces a kill no matter what against teams that don't have faster mons like Eternatus or Zacian

Additionally, Tera Normal allows it to gain an immunity to opposing Marshadow's Shadow Sneak

This is insane. I am fighting for my life here I will be voting to ban
 
I generally do not get involved in these kinds of discussions but I think the oppressiveness of Sash Marshadow is blown way out of proportion. First of all it is hardly without counterplay; common Pokemon like Hisuian Zoroark and Endeavor Tailow can take it on reliably without any issue and even walls like Metal Burst Zamazenta and Tera Water Rhydon take pitiful damage from it. Sure it might 6-0 your traditional Ubers teams like Cynthia theme team or mono furry but I think there’s skill expression in getting 6-0d too. Plus it’s very cute, which is something your post fails to mention even once. It’s almost as if you want to ban anything that beats your uncreative legendary spam teams. I think we should focus on Pokemon that are actually oppressive to the meta like Cloyster. I had a game last night where it boosted up to +6 against my Alolan Sandslash and swept my whole team. How was I supposed to deal with that? But you never hear the Smogon elites talking about it because their broken legendaries can handle it. KEEP MARSHADOW, BAN CLOYSTER.
 
:focus_sash: :marshadow: is a great offensive tool in the current NatDex Ubers landscape, not fearing top threats such as :roaring_moon: :gholdengo: :baxcalibur: :murkrow: and it even has a chance to OHKO :gothitelle: after a layer of Spikes, for all the tournament nerds out there. A moveset of Shadow Sneak, Endeavor, Rock Tomb, Spectral Thief ensures maximum effectivity against setup sweepers and many top threats. I would not recommend Poltergeist as its 90% accuracy means Spectral Thief does more damage on the long run, and if you break the opponent's :focus_sash:, a very common and good item, you can't use it anymore. The extreme consistency in which it deals with top teams is honestly overbearing on the current NatDex Ubers landscape only rivaled in consistency by :calyrex_shadow: and :miraidon: and it can not even be dealt with with tera as Tera Ghost means a Ghost weakness and Tera Normal means a Fighting weakness. And if it steals a Meteor Beam Boost from a cringemon such as :eternatus: It can start a sweep as its moves are now boosted even further with the Special Attack raise. Therefore I think Focus Sash Marshadow is banworthy
 
Ban this one. I can't count the number of games where my sweepers were in position of winning the game, only to fell for Spectral Thief. I do not want to play a tier where I have to put Stealth Rock in every single team just in order to counter this set. We don't have any viable options to counter it. Like at all.
 
I completely agree. Stealing the Special Attack boost front MBeam Eternatus allows it to OHKO Zygarde pre-Power Construct with Technician Boosted HP Ice after Rocks have been setup.

+1 0 SpA Technician Marshadow Hidden Power Ice vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 372-440 (98.6 - 116.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Additionally, almost all multi-hit moves don't hit Marshadow for SE. Even if they were to come off an insane attack stat, like Koraidon's Scale Shot or Kyurem Black's Icicle Spear, you HAVE to get 5 hits, or else it will KO back, with Kyurem taking SE from Low Kick, or steal the boost that Koraidon got from Scale Shot.

252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Scale Shot (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Marshadow: 268-324 (83.4 - 100.9%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Marshadow: 240-288 (74.7 - 89.7%) -- approx. 2HKO


You only really get 1 multi-hit option that can reliably beat a Sash Marshadow, being Gale Wings Talonflame Dual Wingbeat.

252+ Atk Tera Flying Talonflame Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Marshadow: 336-400 (104.6 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

However, this makes it extremely constricting on the team builder. As stated in the original post, more than half of all Marshadow are running Focus Sash, so it's almost guaranteed you will run into it. Also, it's not worth burning Tera just to beat this one mon. Even then Marshadow can adapt with Tera Rock to resist both of Talonflame's STABs, so there isn't a true perfect counter.

Speaking of constricting on the teambuilder, since it's not locked into a move unlike the Choice Band variants, Marshadow is free to pick and choose its coverage options. Rock Tomb for Ho-oh (and Talonflame, if it teras to live Dual Wingbeat), HP Ice for Zygarde, Knock Off for Hisuian Zoroark, even Skitter Smack against the rising threat that is Arceus-Grass, depending on what its team needs. You need MULTIPLE ways to defend against every coverage option on a team, and I believe that is really unhealthy for the metagame.

Marshadow can also steal Speed boosts from sweepers like Dragon Dance Arceus-Ground and Rock Polish Primal Groudon, allowing them to beat the faster relevant threats, such as Eternatus, Zacian and Ninjask.

It's just not worth it to keep such an overbearing threat in this tier.
Please ban it.
 
I've kept quiet on this mon for some time due to the agenda and suspected conspiracy against it, but now that the cat is out of the bag, we should have banned this one before Xern. Its effect on the setup game is incredibly centralising, starving any setup sweeper that isn't a particularly fast dragon dancer of the ability to play the game without fear of this monster eating one and reverse sweeping. I apologise for my lapse in judgment and cowardice as a member of the council for not speaking up sooner, and strive to do better. However, it still isn't as bad as the fact it took until April 1st 2024 for it to be accepted. We have truly been fools.

As for tiering action, I believe that on top of banning Marshadow (my proposal that Marshadow cannot hold Focus Sash was shot down despite the fact that it minimises collateral, this truly is a sad day for fellow CB Marshadow gamers), I propose we free Dynamax so that in case of more broken Pokemon that threaten to reverse sweep once they have stolen stats via Spectral Thief (ie. Smeargle), we can tank the hit and hopefully revenge kill back. We cannot allow good and honest sweepers like Zygarde or CM Arceus to suffer for the council's sins any longer.
 
I don't play this tier regularly but from the looks of it and personal experience from the little games I've played, SashShadow is genuinely the most broken threat of NDUbers, period. It's ability of being able to absolutely dunk on any boosts you've accumulated if hazards aren't up is absolutely insane. Just imagine! A spammable move coming from an insane 125 Atk and STEALS BOOSTS??? All of that for a simple cost of sacrificing your hazard removal as well alongside doing no real damage and being useless against special boosters. Plus, it's likely your opponent wouldn't even switch out because why would they switch out after you sacrifice your hazard removal to remove hazards and then immediately send in Marshadow? SashShadow is absolutely broken and I fully support the quick-complex-ban of this monstrous of a set right now.
 
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