Ubers National Dex Ubers Stage 3 - Moonlight Shadow (Xerneas suspect test)

[cfdu1202]

Thanks for your detailed reply.

I do find it surprising that you claim that doesn't restrict teambuilding when you acknowledged that it does in your VR post. I agree that every teamstyle does remain viable being present in the tier but it does signficantly hinder BO as a whole due those teams generally giving plenty of opportunities to boost whilst also seldom being able to fit solid counterplay.

I said Ho-Oh solves a lot of problems in the team builder, letting one be creative with the other 4 slots. But you can absolutely use Ho-Oh-less builds, at the cost of dedicating more slots to cover the metagame.

The majority of my teams consists of BO and I never had any significant problems against Xerneas. You have every Pokemon that can hit hard enough to bring Xerneas under priority range, maybe with the exception of Zygarde, and you have a strong defensive backbone to fall on in case you let Xerneas set-up. It's not the end of the world if you have to Tera just to deal with Xerneas because once you do you don't have to worry anymore about it for the rest of the game.

Though doesn't render playstyles unviable it heavily restricts what you can comfortably run within those playstyles, particularly balance and BO. If not for for example, would compete with as a defogger more than it currently does. would be a signifcantly better mon in the meta and so on. Even if was banned I'd still probably default to when building balance, but the rest of the team would be far more varied.

You have currently quite a lot of freedom building teams. Restrictive is when you must run a certain Pokemon otherwise you lose. Think PDon against Xerneas (again haha) before the release of Necrozma-DM. Think Yveltal against Calyrex-S, Necrozma-DM against pre-ban Zacian last gen. Think Tera Fairy Zygarde + Tera Water Arceus-Fairy against Koraidon. Current Xerneas is not there.

Re: viability ranking
If a top-tier Pokemon, heck many people would consider Zygarde-C to be a top 3 Pokemon in the metagame, despite being food for a seemingly broken Pokemon, would it still be top tier or would it have dropped a long time ago? Just look at the VR before and after Koraidon's ban, how Pokemon such as Arceus-Fairy fell and how for example Arceus-Dark which was cooked by Koraidon rose. It is also cooked by Xerneas but look at it now. With maybe the exception of Giratina-O (I concede you're right on this one bumboclaat, though it is still underexplored), not much would change.

I think part of the reason why we are disagreeing is that you're looking at things in a vacuum.

And I think the same of the pro-ban side, actually. You don't necessarily need a surefire counter to Xerneas like Tera Fire Ho-Oh, but if you don't, you must play proactive enough not to let Xerneas set-up for free, and it is very doable. You just have to build accordingly.

This is something I'd largely disagree with. doesn't really fit in with the rest. and (more cm than dd sets) find switchin opportunities but and don't really switch into much of anything. The only thing that is semi comfortable switching in on is and a scouted . can run heat wave, but that is uncommon enough to to say it can generally switch in. really doesn't want to switch in unless it is able to pull off a sweep as being forced out, even without taking damage, heavily comprimises its ability to do so later. is really taking a risk switching in v much of the metagame as uninvested it really does not great bulk even as . Taking a stray hit + hazards is generally going to push it into non revenge killing range.

That's how you play BO, you rely on the defensive profiles of your offensive Pokemon such as Zacian-C, Yveltal, Arceus-Ground, meaning you can afford to switch them in. The difference with Xerneas is that for example, a +1/+1 Ultranecrozma that just KO'd something can switch out of the Marshadow's Shadow Sneak and come back later. A +2/+2 Xerneas that has to switch out is just not a threat anymore, 99% of the time it is just better to attack what's in front. And if someone says of course you need to weaken the checks before attempting to sweep, this applies for every sweepers out there.

You can also tera and phase while the user just attacks while means is likely now going to be vulnerable to one of 's partners and is still intact. Taunt still has similar interactions given that our most common taunters () are OHKOd by moonblast.

I don't understand that. It's unnecessary to burn Tera if Xerneas doesn't click Geomancy.

I touched on Arceus-Dark before, but do you really want to keep Xerneas in front of Yveltal? Unless you are very Yveltal weak (funnily Xerneas builds are to some degree), the best you can do is OHKO Yveltal while losing your Power Herb, so essentially an even trade, or tank the LO Oblivion Wing putting you under priority range.

Look, I think the main difference between us is the threshold where we find a Pokemon restrictive or not. For me, I listed some examples where I think a Pokemon is too restrictive above. Some of them were banned, some not, and I don't think Xerneas reached that level, especially considering a Ubers metagame.

 

[bumboclaat]

I've been told that using emotes makes the posts harder to read so I'll refrain from using them going forward.

I said Ho-Oh solves a lot of problems in the team builder, letting one be creative with the other 4 slots. But you can absolutely use Ho-Oh-less builds, at the cost of dedicating more slots to cover the metagame.

The majority of my teams consists of BO and I never had any significant problems against Xerneas. You have every Pokemon that can hit hard enough to bring Xerneas under priority range, maybe with the exception of Zygarde, and you have a strong defensive backbone to fall on in case you let Xerneas set-up. It's not the end of the world if you have to Tera just to deal with Xerneas because once you do you don't have to worry anymore about it for the rest of the game.

I don't think I implied that builds without Ho-oH are unviable and that certainly was not my intent. I would be interested in seeing a few of these teams if you would be willing to share them, not the pastes but just screenshots of the 6. BO does have something of a defensive backbone, I'd hesitate to call it strong. I wouldn't call BO as a whole Xerneas food, but BO is also not particularly great against it. If you are nearly always sacing something to get Xerneas into Marshadow range, which often requires Marshadow to tera, especially if it is life orb, that is not something I'd call great. If Marshadow is banded it is also likely giving a free turn to some other threat if you are facing HO. Additionally, Giratina O is the most common form of hazard control on BO which makes defogging hazards a particularly risky endeavour as it potentially gives Xerneas a free boost and can't actually do much in return unless it is running thunder wave. The significantly higher chance of playing the game with webs or t spikes up in particular makes your checks to other threats or Xerneas itself signficantly shakier. I'd somewhat agree about your point about having to use tera not being the end of the world. It isn't a huge issue as long as you've also forced your opponent to tera as well. If you have not it becomes a significantly bigger issue.

You have currently quite a lot of freedom building teams. Restrictive is when you must run a certain Pokemon otherwise you lose. Think PDon against Xerneas (again haha) before the release of Necrozma-DM. Think Yveltal against Calyrex-S, Necrozma-DM against pre-ban Zacian last gen. Think Tera Fairy Zygarde + Tera Water Arceus-Fairy against Koraidon. Current Xerneas is not there.

Ubers is always going to have this dynamic to some degree and everyone is going to have a different threshold of where centralization becomes unhealthy. With the Pdon V Xerneas example, aberforth, the current Ubers TL mentioned a few weeks ago that Xerneas would have certainly been banned in ORAS if modern ubers tiering philosophy / sentiments existed back then. Personally, part of the reason I never picked up SS Ubers was the presence of shadow rider. Korai is the one relevant to our tier and though I'm not privy to the council discussions surrounding its test it came across as we can't quickban it or we don't have the support to quickban it so here is a test given how quickly it was tested after receiving scale shot. I agree Xerneas is not as restrictive as Korai, but at the same time it is not far off. For what it is worth, Korai also provided speed control with the scarf set which was a healthy part of the meta and the tier sorely misses having such a good splashable scarfer. Yveltal is ok, scarf xern exists and that is sort of it.

Re: viability ranking
If a top-tier Pokemon, heck many people would consider Zygarde-C to be a top 3 Pokemon in the metagame, despite being food for a seemingly broken Pokemon, would it still be top tier or would it have dropped a long time ago? Just look at the VR before and after Koraidon's ban, how Pokemon such as Arceus-Fairy fell and how for example Arceus-Dark which was cooked by Koraidon rose. It is also cooked by Xerneas but look at it now. With maybe the exception of Giratina-O (I concede you're right on this one bumboclaat, though it is still underexplored), not much would change.

If Zygarde had signficant issues beyond the Xern matchup it wouldn't be considered a top mon. It is largely deadweight into stall if it doesn't run Dragon Tail, but doesn't really have many issues outside of that. Some mons, taunt Arceus in particular, give it a bit of trouble, those are workable. It also can tera and glare v many Xern sets which at least prevents it from being complete fodder and presents something of a risk to the Xerneas user. This is a bit different from Arceus Dark, which as you point out, was not nearly as good in the Korai meta as it is today. A key difference between Arceus Dark and Zygarde is having pretty horrible matchups into two meta defining threats as opposed to one, especially when their checks have little overlap.

Working around a Xerneas weakness, particularly on the types of teams Zygarde finds itself on is fairly managable so long as you are not excessively stacking Xerneas weak pokes and straining your Xerneas checks. This is pretty different from Arceus Dark in the Korai meta. Due to both the Xern and Korai weakness Arceus Dark had a substantially harder time fitting on teams due to these constraints despite having all the same traits that make it such an excellent mon today. I also did check the VR and it only rose one spot in the update after Korai left.

It is difficult to take the statement that not much would change in the wake of Xern leaving seriously. Anyone can speculate on what changes may or may not happen in a Xernless meta, but there would be changes nonetheless. Xerneas does not exist in isolation and is an integral part of many of the teams which it finds itself on. If Xerneas leaving had no impact on the metagame there would be no reason to suspect it.

And I think the same of the pro-ban side, actually. You don't necessarily need a surefire counter to Xerneas like Tera Fire Ho-Oh, but if you don't, you must play proactive enough not to let Xerneas set-up for free, and it is very doable. You just have to build accordingly.

This statement could apply to most of our banned mons. Play proactively and build so that Mega Gengar cannot trap you. Play proactively and build so Koraidon can't get a SD. Play proactively and build so Shadow Rider can't get a KO and snowball and so on. This ignores the opponents ability to do the same.

That's how you play BO, you rely on the defensive profiles of your offensive Pokemon such as Zacian-C, Yveltal, Arceus-Ground, meaning you can afford to switch them in. The difference with Xerneas is that for example, a +1/+1 Ultranecrozma that just KO'd something can switch out of the Marshadow's Shadow Sneak and come back later. A +2/+2 Xerneas that has to switch out is just not a threat anymore, 99% of the time it is just better to attack what's in front. And if someone says of course you need to weaken the checks before attempting to sweep, this applies for every sweepers out there.

Fair enough on the first point. I disagree with the rest. An UNecro you've forced out is rarely going to get the opportunity to boost up again. It may be able to clean up due to its power and speed, but isn't able to leverage its pre transformation bulk and ability to get that DD. Xerneas is in a similar situation, but yeah the threat is largely neutered. The degree to which you need to weaken checks is really something it appears you are overlooking. Landing a toxic or minorly chipping Ho-Oh or getting 2 rounds of hazard damage on Primal Groudon is something that is far easier to do than signficantly reducing the health of the opposing Arceus Dark / Yveltal. That is still easier than having Marshadow in the back which will always revenge as long as Unecro has taken damage.

I don't understand that. It's unnecessary to burn Tera if Xerneas doesn't click Geomancy.

Really did not phrase that well so my apologies. That is if Ho-Oh is in a situation where it has already taken chip dealing with Xern's teammates, Zac-C for example and finds itself within range of relatively common attacks such as Thunder(bolt). It is something that happens with some frequency due to Ho-Oh often being required to check more than just Xern.

touched on Arceus-Dark before, but do you really want to keep Xerneas in front of Yveltal? Unless you are very Yveltal weak (funnily Xerneas builds are to some degree), the best you can do is OHKO Yveltal while losing your Power Herb, so essentially an even trade, or tank the LO Oblivion Wing putting you under priority range.

Given how much Yveltal can be a threat to many of the HO teams Xerneas finds itself on? Yeah, especially if it isn't paired with Marshadow indicating the increased liklihood of it running sucker punch. It is definitely be worth making that trade if that is what is stopping UNecro or some other mon from sweeping. A win is a win and even if Xerneas isn't sweeping itself it is still contributing heavily to it. This is the sort of thing I was talking about in my initial post about using Xerneas as a breaker. It is still a positive trade.

Look, I think the main difference between us is the threshold where we find a Pokemon restrictive or not. For me, I listed some examples where I think a Pokemon is too restrictive above. Some of them were banned, some not, and I don't think Xerneas reached that level, especially considering a Ubers metagame.

I'm wondering where that threshold is for you. Is Koraidon the line for a banworthy mon or can a mon be worse than Koraidon while remaining banworthy in your eyes? Primal Groudon being banworthy is certainly not a common opinion nor is it one I would agree with. It certainly is restricting to some degree. If anything it is similar to ADV Tyranitar in that yes it is restricting, but the meta benefits from its presence and it is a healthy mon to centralize around. Personally, Primal Kyogre is far more restricting in the manner you are describing.

 

[cfdu1202]

This statement could apply to most of our banned mons. Play proactively and build so that Mega Gengar cannot trap you. Play proactively and build so Koraidon can't get a SD. Play proactively and build so Shadow Rider can't get a KO and snowball and so on. This ignores the opponents ability to do the same.

I'm genuingly baffled by how nuance is lost about proactive playing and building. You cannot win against Koraidon and Calyrex-S just by playing proactively (i.e preventing set-up, punishing set-up by hitting the opposing Pokemon hard, taking a boosted hit and phaze/KO back, priority moves), but you can vs Xerneas.

Koraidon hits harder and has base 135 speed. It means you cannot Taunt it, Knock it, attack it first before taking a hit. This is an enormous difference. You cannot trade with Koraidon the same as you would against Xerneas, because Koraidon will KO you first. You cannot prevent Koraidon to get that SD. A +2 Koraidon can just switch out as you Tera Fairy Ho-Oh or Tera Water Arceus-Fairy anticipating the Tera Fire Koraidon, meaning you cannot check it the second time. You don't have to worry about Xerneas setting up a second time, and this is huge. Koraidon can do this throughout the game.

Calyrex-Shadow hits harder and has base 150 speed, on top of having a better offensive typing that isn't resisted by the top top tier Pokemon in the metagame, and cannot be revenged by Extremekiller. What applies for Koraidon also largely applies here. I don't think I need to write anything about Mega Gengar.

An UNecro you've forced out is rarely going to get the opportunity to boost up again. It may be able to clean up due to its power and speed, but isn't able to leverage its pre transformation bulk and ability to get that DD.

It is still useful without a boost, you still have the 129 base speed and maybe the Z-move to pressure the opposing team. Same applies for Arceus-Ground and the Pokemon I mentioned, unlike Xerneas.

I'm wondering where that threshold is for you. Is Koraidon the line for a banworthy mon or can a mon be worse than Koraidon while remaining banworthy in your eyes?

As I mentioned, Koraidon's power level is well beyond Xerneas'. The limit for a Pokemon to be banworthy can be moved depending on the tier and the philosophy of said tier. To me, Xerneas isn't an outlier both in terms of power and in terms of counterplay within the tier, hence, I cannot support a ban. I just think it is the best at punishing bad plays.

 

[BrakeSeer]

I'm genuingly baffled by how nuance is lost about proactive playing and building. You cannot win against Koraidon and Calyrex-S just by playing proactively (i.e preventing set-up, punishing set-up by hitting the opposing Pokemon hard, taking a boosted hit and phaze/KO back, priority moves), but you can vs Xerneas.

Koraidon hits harder and has base 135 speed. It means you cannot Taunt it, Knock it, attack it first before taking a hit. This is an enormous difference. You cannot trade with Koraidon the same as you would against Xerneas, because Koraidon will KO you first. You cannot prevent Koraidon to get that SD. A +2 Koraidon can just switch out as you Tera Fairy Ho-Oh or Tera Water Arceus-Fairy anticipating the Tera Fire Koraidon, meaning you cannot check it the second time. You don't have to worry about Xerneas setting up a second time, and this is huge. Koraidon can do this throughout the game.

Calyrex-Shadow hits harder and has base 150 speed, on top of having a better offensive typing that isn't resisted by the top top tier Pokemon in the metagame, and cannot be revenged by Extremekiller. What applies for Koraidon also largely applies here. I don't think I need to write anything about Mega Gengar.


It is still useful without a boost, you still have the 129 base speed and maybe the Z-move to pressure the opposing team. Same applies for Arceus-Ground and the Pokemon I mentioned, unlike Xerneas.


As I mentioned, Koraidon's power level is well beyond Xerneas'. The limit for a Pokemon to be banworthy can be moved depending on the tier and the philosophy of said tier. To me, Xerneas isn't an outlier both in terms of power and in terms of counterplay within the tier, hence, I cannot support a ban. I just think it is the best at punishing bad plays.

As I mentioned earlier, I'll repeat myself to make sure you see this, as you never reacted to it in an earlier part of the thread;

How does one person do all of the Anti-Geomancy building and Anti-Geomancy plays during battles while still accounting for other relatively popular Xerneas sets that players such as myself have used in high level? The ones I am particularly fond of is the following;
Xerneas @ Choice Specs
Ability: Fairy Aura
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Aromatherapy
- Defog / Thunder Wave
This set precisely outspeeds Dragon Dance Zygarde sets by 1 point with a modest nature, hitting a prominent speed tier, along with 401 HP allowing it to take 5 hits from a Chansey Seismic Toss in the stall matchup assuming no hazards are present, but this is a niche case already and the EVs are not needed anywhere else as no speed or special attack had to be sacrificed to hit the benchmark. This set doesnt rely on Tera, but is an excellent abuser of it regardless, letting it hit the following absurd calcs;
252+ SpA Choice Specs Fairy Aura Tera Fairy Xerneas Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 204 SpD Groudon-Primal: 201-237 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Fairy Aura Tera Fairy Xerneas Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 204+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 183-216 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252+ SpA Choice Specs Fairy Aura Tera Fairy Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 163-192 (40.9 - 48.2%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after 2 layers of Spikes
(Even though you may argue these conditions are meant to favour Xerneas user, it doesnt matter in this case as if you are layering entry hazards vs a Deoxys-Speed HO team then your opponent sucks ngl and without them Xerneas LIVES SUNSTEEL STRIKE; 0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Xerneas: 336-396 (83.7 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Fairy Aura Tera Fairy Xerneas Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 151-178 (36.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Ho-oh is one of the few mons able to switch in and threaten xern with status or chip, except since xern isnt relying on a consumable power herb, it can come in MULTIPLE TIMES AND MAKE THESE ABSURD CALCS HAPPEN MULTIPLE TIMES EACH GAME and with Ho-oh regenerating 33.3% of its HP each time it comes in to check Xerneas and Moonblast dealing 39.5% on avg, this is not sustainable, and is idealized for the non-Xerneas user as it assumes that Ho-oh is not needed to check the other setup monsters it has on its team that could threaten Ho-oh like Unec and double dance Pdon and Zygarde and Calm Mind Arceus Fairy and Calm Mind Arceus Ground and Bulk Up or Choice Band Marshadow, and I could keep going. This also fails to account for any prediction Xerneas gets right in Thunderbolting the right checks as they switch into its Moonblasts as well as Critical Hits chipping Ho-oh down even faster.
I could list more calcs but it would be redundant as these are the only "checks" to this monster, and when the Regenerator resist with record breaking levels of special bulk cannot handle it, nothing can. this is only 1 OUT OF 2 COMMON CHOICED XERN SETS, EACH WITH ENTIRELY DIFFERENT METHODS OF COUNTERPLAY and with the only available methods of deducing the Xerneas' sets require it either hitting your speedsters with Moonblasts that take them out of commision or leaving in whatever mon Xerneas switched into to see if Xerneas outspeeds it or not, as any other option either lets something take 100% regardless of the set due to being frail or weak to Fairy type attacks, or with switching you have no way of deducing speed as you never moved that turn. This gets repeated each time it comes in until you see it outspeed and Thunderbolt/Thunder Wave your Zacian rendering it useless or letting it throw off a nuke into your defensive backbone and leaving it crippled to handle other pokemon throughout the game. So the opponent is expected to juggle all of these guessing games on top of keeping everything in ideal condition to take on Geomancy Xerneas. And on top of that. there are other sets of Xerneas' that have relevancy in the Tournament and Ladder metagames, such as Ingrain Tera Water Xerneas with max physical defense investment, various Z-Geomancy sets, and general utility sets. Some other sets exist, but are mostly just variations of the aforementioned sets like bulky Choice Scarf Xerneas. The biggest issue for me is the suprise factor from a set that these common variants of Xerneas sets could use, and most, if not all, have very different forms of counterplay, where deducing a slightly different coverage move, Tera Type or Held Item and switching in something at an inopportune time, which will often jeopardize the game immediately. The unpredictability Xerneas can have causes you to have to innovate checks to all of these variants to a degree where you can outplay ur opponent enough to overcome it, but with the sheer power and versatility of Xerneas' sets and coverage make that a near impossible feat to achieve. The only decent check I know of to most is Magearna , but with Pain Split being its only form of recovery while being effected by spikes, and the only other meta relevant pokemon it hard checks being Life Orb Yveltal, it is a highly specific pokemon the requires being built around like I did back during the Koraidon suspect, needing Choice Scarf Koraidon and Tera Fairy defensive Roar Lunala to handle other major powerhouses that steamroll the defensive core of Arceus Dark, Magearna, Primal Groudon and Zygarde, but even this was still steamrolled by Choice Specs Xerneas despite nearly perfectly answering Geomancy Xerneas sets with Shadow Shield and Roar, Heart Swap, and a strong Earthquake. This brings me to my main point. No matter how much you prep for Xerneas, if it slightly changes its method of breaking in an initially inperceptable way for a game, you cannot beat it without making multiple uninformed calls until it clicks Aromatherapy, Defog, or Geomancy. Oh yeah, Xerneas' stupid support movepool, I almost forgot! Who knew that having Non-Volatile Status clearingand Entry Hazard control on a momentum generating monster wallbreaker further exasbarbates all the issues of wearing it down, and if you play Xerneas properly, it should break through a vast majority of teams as long as you do not make a major mistake. If I missed anything major flame me for it in the replys and I'll adjust this accordingly and note if it changes the key points I made here. anyway if it aint clear where i stand, Gay Deer makes me say, "Oh dear!".
I want it gone

 

[cyclonez_]

I will be voting ban on Xerneas. I do not think the Power Herb set alone is ban worthy. It's close, but not quite there. It has checks and counters.

The fact that it has set variety is what pushes it over the edge for me. The Ingrain set is very strong, and it has its checks and counters as well, but they're entirely different (and significantly less splashable). Not to mention the Choice Specs set ranted about above. Or Z-Geo. Or other viable sets.

I love the pretty gay deer, but it shouldn't stay here.

 

[Cancel cult]

huh, it looks like xern is a real problem. if only there was a pokemon that could reliably stop set-up sweepers. it sounds like that pokemon would be really useful. if only it existed.

anyways, i don't think xern is worthy of a ban. broken is not enough. this is a banlist, and I don't think xern is a big enough monster to warrent it being banned from the banlist. not to mention, what happens if it is banned? what happens then? xern is the premiere setup sweeper, and a lot of mons are held back by its prevelence. if it gets banned, mons like Zygarde could become a really big problem. saying "it makes team building hard" is not enough to eliminate a crucial part of the meta. pdon puts a much bigger strain on team building than xern ever will, but banning it is considered absurd. not to mention the important mons like yveltal and ndm that would be a lot less useful if xern is banned. by banning one Mon, you could hurt the prevalence of others, which could in turn cause a huge change in the meta. ultimately, I don't think xern meets the qualifications of what should be banned from this tier.

 

[R8]

deer deleted https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-ubers-3-xerneas.3739283/post-10037450