Leaping straight into a Sticky Web suspect before taking action on specific elements of the archetype may come across as extreme at a first glance. In the interest of transparency, the process that led to this course decision will be in a spoiler at the bottom of the post.
Why Sticky Web?
There has been extensive discussion in both public and private spaces over the last few months regarding the eventual subject of a suspect test. While there have been a myriad of suggestions, there have only ever been three realistic options: Smeargle, Sticky Web, and Yveltal. Although Yveltal is the prescribed option by policy, it has never been seriously considered for the simple reason that suspecting it has a zero chance of materializing into a ban – wasting everybody’s time. Consequently, the discussion over the last few months has been whether or not Sticky Web would be knocked down to an acceptable power level without Smeargle as a setter.
After an extensive amount of debate the majority of the council has concluded that Sticky Web is a better target for tiering action than Smeargle. Although the archetype is powerful, this doesn’t stem from any individual element. The primary choke points both in battle and in the teambuilder, Yveltal and Chi-Yu have more than proven that they operate effectively regardless of the setter. Smeargle may be far and away the best setter, but Shuckle is entirely serviceable whilst Ribombee despite being little more than a means of counterteaming Smeargle as Sticky Web is strong enough that this alone makes it a fairly viable Pokémon.
This is further illustrated by Smeargle dropping Stone Axe / Ceaseless Edge for Perish Song to cover an otherwise problematic matchup in Dragon Dance Zygarde. The archetype being as controversial as despite lacking the assistance of other entry hazards should be setting off some alarm bells. Although the other setters are a significant step down in strength, they are more than serviceable and many of the issues raised by the pro-ban contingent would remain valid. Consequently, the council believes that moving forward with a test on Sticky Web itself is merited after receiving confirmation that there is enough community support after the last survey.
Our pre NDPL survey returned results that could justify a Sticky Web suspect, but we opted to hold off and monitor NDPL as it features the highest level play our tier has to offer. Sticky Web did not see high use during NDPL, but that is also a small sample. When taking a deeper look at the teams that were brought, most would have handily lost to a well-played Sticky Web team.
Combined with the previous survey results, we felt that the time had come to address some element of Sticky Web. However, we are very cognizant that banning anything from Ubers is a tall order, especially a move, and wanted to consult the community to better understand how risky it would be to proceed with a suspect test on Sticky Web itself as opposed to Smeargle as a failed suspect is worse than not having one at all.
Ban Viewpoint
Finding the line for what is ‘reasonable’ to deal with in Ubers metagames is tough. Additionally, the bar for what is considered reasonable to handle in Ubers metagames is substantially higher than others. Even the most rigid do not ban voters acknowledge that Sticky Web has been the primary centralizing force in the metagame for the last year and a half.
Sticky Web has been characterized as a ‘fish,’ but this is an ankle deep way of analyzing the metagame. Even if Sticky Web is ‘fish,’ it is only one because of the stringent demands that Sticky Web imposes in the teambuilder. Teams that are unable to prevent or reliably facilitate the removal of Sticky Web have been considered unviable for some period of time - illustrated by the lack of teams that have demonstrated the ability to consistently win games without removing the webs despite having more than a year to surface. The Sticky Web archetype is simply too powerful and common to ignore, essentially forcing teams to chose from the tiny pool of options.
While this may lead to Sticky Web being perceived as a fish, that is only due to potentially losing at team preview should it not be treated with the level of respect it deserves. While some techs have popped up such as Scale Shot Rayquaza, these often rely on the element of surprise. Furthermore, all of these moves attempt to exploit Smeargle’s low bulk and do not prevent Shuckle or Ribombee from setting Sticky Web. This dynamic further exacerbates the issue when the tech can’t even execute reliably and heavily incentives additional, more robust counterplay despite its presence.
It isn’t as simple as removing Sticky Web guaranteeing a win as given the common Pokémon on Sticky Web structures are effective regardless except Chi-Yu. Notably, most of our top tier Pokémon have retained this status due to the essential offensive and defensive utility they provide despite being unable to function properly without Sticky Web being removed and their inability to contribute to contribute to this task. These roles still need to be filled, so builders are often forced to turn the same limited pool of options to support them which has severely diminished the diversity of nearly every archetype except for Sticky Web itself. It has reached such a degree that a Ribombee, a Pokémon that is little more than an anti-webs fish is a solid Pokémon. Terapagos is considered to be a viable Pokémon for similar reasons because the sixth slot on a Sticky Web structure is inconsequential enough to accommodate a Pokémon that provides minimal value outside of essentially guaranteeing a win against opposing Sticky Web structures.
In contrast, almost every other archetype has seen massive consolidation in consistent teams due to the difficulty of incorporating counterplay to Sticky Web without massively compromising their ability to handle the rest of the metagame. At the end of the day, other top threats can be handled with superior play, but not Sticky Web. For example, Glimmora HO has been absent from the metagame due to its truly atrocious matchup into Sticky Web despite Glimmora being better than Deoxys-S into the rest of the metagame. Even Deoxys-S is forced to run a Rocky Helmet or it risks losing to Smeargle. Giratina-O has become a fringe Pokémon largely due to Sticky Web despite facing similar roadblocks against hazard stack, but that matchup can be won with good play as the counterplay to the same threats is actually able to function. The same is true of its fishy companion.
We have seen some Pokémon and sets get significantly better such as Mega Diancie and Choice Scarf Yveltal. However, we are not seeing much development of the offenses where they are actually good, but seeing them chucked onto balances where they often make teams worse against the rest of the metagame, but at least they won’t lose to Sticky Web. This happens even at the highest level of play and has resulted in balance structures that are deceptively frail that quickly crumble to even modest offensive pressure or momentum.
National Dex Ubers will always be an offensively leaning metagame, but it has been a long time since we’ve seen one as offensive as this. This isn’t inherently a bad thing. However, the question this suspect aims to answer is if the equilibrium we’ve reached is. For many the answer is no and Sticky Web is the primary reason why.
Do Not Ban Position
At the end of the day, the standards for tiering action in Ubers differs from other tiers due to necessity. The power level of Ubers formats results in a level of centralization and acceptance of elements that would be deemed unacceptable in other tiers. This is demonstrated by controversial Pokémon such as Zacian-C and Zygarde failing to return survey scores that would trigger a suspect test.
Being one of the metagame’s staples, teams are now usually equipped for it. Therefore counterplay to Sticky Web does exist (mainly Choice Scarf Yveltal, Mega Diancie + a Defogger, and Ho-Oh + Fezandipiti or Primal Kyogre) and major archetypes have known structures that do not automatically lose to Sticky Web. Once an Ubers metagame reaches that state, tiering action is not required. The NatDex Ubers circuit exceeded even the most optimistic expectations with almost 200 participants and this would not have happened if the tier was in a dire state. After all, the burden of proof is on the pro ban proponents to make their case when it comes to tiering action.
Due to the nature of the archetype, matches usually end up being effectively 5 vs 6, where the potential removal of Webs completely flips the matchup. This puts the Webs team at risk of being unable to handle common metagame threats such as Zacian-C, or Dragon Dance Arceus-Ground. Therefore, as “free” as the archetype might seem, it is usually forced to respect a strict sequence of moves and mons to send into the battlefield, an aspect many opponents can take advantage of.
‘Modern’ Sticky Web structures have existed for quite some time now. They first started popping up on ladder in late spring 2024. These structures differentiated themselves by dropping the seemingly undroppable Ultra Necrozma for Chi-Yu. This single change elevated the archetype from solid, but inconsistent to top tier. Although popular on high ladder for a couple a months, the wider community was introduced to this structure when Emoxu9 showcased his spin on it to his 2024 ND Ubers Open title.
While the strength of Sticky Web was clear, the jury was still out on whether it had any sticking power or was a brief metagame trend. When something new bursts onto the scene it tends to take over the metagame and fall back to earth as teambuilders started to account for it. It was clear that the metagame would have to adapt to Sticky Web’s newfound strength, but it would take some time for teambuilders to figure out how to do so.
The conundrum wasn’t, and still isn’t, beating Sticky Web. Making a team that beats Sticky Web is easy, the challenge is doing so without compromising matchups into the rest of the metagame to an unreasonable degree. As the months rolled by surprisingly few options had surfaced and it became clear that Sticky Web was the primary centralizing force in the metagame by early 2025.
In February, the council began internally discussion the possibility of tiering action in the future. At the time, the majority of the council was opposed to tiering action, but we had a discussion with the tiering folks to ensure we understood our options for tiering action as a precautionary measure. Nobody expected a suspect test to materialize, but given Sticky Web seemed likely to at least appear on future surveys at this point, knowing the right questions to ask is important.
Sticky Web ended up being a last minute addition to our post NDBD survey and received a surprisingly high score comparable to long time controversial presences in Zacian-C and Zygarde. Although the scores were nowhere near high enough to consider a suspect test, they were notable given we asked about Sticky Web and not Smeargle. We continued to monitor the situation as promised and decided to survey the community again before NDPL while leaving enough time for a suspect test if needed should the community indicate one was warranted.
The results of that survey were…not great to say the least. Metagame enjoyment and stability had continually decreased over the past year and were approaching dangerously low numbers despite minimal change on the surface. A point of pride is that regardless of how the tier is perceived outside our community, our playerbase has always enjoyed the metagame and that was pretty clearly no longer the case. Furthermore, they’d made it pretty clear that the biggest reason for this was Sticky Web and a score of 6.6 | 5.5 was higher than anybody was expecting.
Accordingly, a discussion was had amongst tier leadership on whether or not tiering action was needed before NDPL started. The numbers whilst high, were borderline and the situation was not dire enough to require immediate tiering action. We planned to monitor NDP/FL closely and assess a path forward afterwards as tiering action on something seemed to be a matter of when, not if. That has now come and gone and while Sticky Web did not have a dominant showing, after reviewing every game, it quickly became apparent that this was due to low use as a shocking number of teams would have essentially lost at preview. Although a suspect on something was likely in the near future, we decided to once again consult the community to get a better idea of the most popular path forward as a failed suspect test on this subject is worse than not having one at all. The results of this most recent survey left us with the impression that the community is comfortable testing the move itself instead of Smeargle.
While the strength of Sticky Web was clear, the jury was still out on whether it had any sticking power or was a brief metagame trend. When something new bursts onto the scene it tends to take over the metagame and fall back to earth as teambuilders started to account for it. It was clear that the metagame would have to adapt to Sticky Web’s newfound strength, but it would take some time for teambuilders to figure out how to do so.
The conundrum wasn’t, and still isn’t, beating Sticky Web. Making a team that beats Sticky Web is easy, the challenge is doing so without compromising matchups into the rest of the metagame to an unreasonable degree. As the months rolled by surprisingly few options had surfaced and it became clear that Sticky Web was the primary centralizing force in the metagame by early 2025.
In February, the council began internally discussion the possibility of tiering action in the future. At the time, the majority of the council was opposed to tiering action, but we had a discussion with the tiering folks to ensure we understood our options for tiering action as a precautionary measure. Nobody expected a suspect test to materialize, but given Sticky Web seemed likely to at least appear on future surveys at this point, knowing the right questions to ask is important.
Sticky Web ended up being a last minute addition to our post NDBD survey and received a surprisingly high score comparable to long time controversial presences in Zacian-C and Zygarde. Although the scores were nowhere near high enough to consider a suspect test, they were notable given we asked about Sticky Web and not Smeargle. We continued to monitor the situation as promised and decided to survey the community again before NDPL while leaving enough time for a suspect test if needed should the community indicate one was warranted.
The results of that survey were…not great to say the least. Metagame enjoyment and stability had continually decreased over the past year and were approaching dangerously low numbers despite minimal change on the surface. A point of pride is that regardless of how the tier is perceived outside our community, our playerbase has always enjoyed the metagame and that was pretty clearly no longer the case. Furthermore, they’d made it pretty clear that the biggest reason for this was Sticky Web and a score of 6.6 | 5.5 was higher than anybody was expecting.
Accordingly, a discussion was had amongst tier leadership on whether or not tiering action was needed before NDPL started. The numbers whilst high, were borderline and the situation was not dire enough to require immediate tiering action. We planned to monitor NDP/FL closely and assess a path forward afterwards as tiering action on something seemed to be a matter of when, not if. That has now come and gone and while Sticky Web did not have a dominant showing, after reviewing every game, it quickly became apparent that this was due to low use as a shocking number of teams would have essentially lost at preview. Although a suspect on something was likely in the near future, we decided to once again consult the community to get a better idea of the most popular path forward as a failed suspect test on this subject is worse than not having one at all. The results of this most recent survey left us with the impression that the community is comfortable testing the move itself instead of Smeargle.
Suspect Test Information
- Create a new account OR use an existing one with no National Dex Ubers games played (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played National Dex Ubers before the test, full stop). You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in National Dex Ubers before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements.
- At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
- If you want to double check your account eligibility after following these instructions; play at least 1 game on the account, then run the /rank command on that account. You should see a field on the far right that reads "Suspect Test Eligible?"
- If this field says "No" then you have either not set up the account correctly or need to use a different/new account. You do not need to complete your entire reqs for this field to say "Yes".
- After you believe that you have achieved reqs, double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, or have any questions about the new process, please contact entrocefalo or Bobsican.
- Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted.
- We will be using the regular National Dex Ubers ladder for this suspect test, and Sticky Web will remain legal throughout the entire suspect test.
- Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
- Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
- The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2980 or more. The suspect test will go on for roughly two weeks, lasting until December 15th at 11:59pm GMT-6, and then the voting will be done here. For Sticky Web to be banned, a 66.6% supermajority will be required.
- No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
- No discussion on other potential suspects;
- You are required to make respectful posts;
- Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
- Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the National Dex Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering to these will help out the moderation team and present your arguments in a better and more educated light.
- You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
- Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have an informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
- Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokémon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result of this suspect, then so be it. "I told you so" arguments on their own also contribute little to the discussion without supporting evidence and are rather unwelcomed.
- This is not the place to complain about the suspect process. Please PM Bobsican or entrocefalo if you have any questions regarding this, and any broader questions about this test.
Last edited:
